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Jon Theodore
01-17-2006, 04:00 PM
A lot of people label players as injury prone, but that seems like a rather empty statement to me. Some people even go so far to say that injuries are just part of the game, well that is true...but only to a degree.

This is an honest question....how many major injuries did the Pacers sustain during the Larry Brown era. I am curious.

But here is a thought. When watching Jamaal Tinsley play basketball, he seems very out of control with his body. I mean everytime he drives for a lay-up it seems like there is a good chance he will land wrong and hurt himself.

One time I saw him land on his ankle and he obviously sprained it, but then he did some crazy contorted roll that seemed to probably injure the already sprained ankle more.

Watch the Detroit Pistons play and tell me how many times they do something overly flashy. These guys have a certain awareness about their bodies and I honestly think the only way one of their guys gets injured is if someone tries to take them out. These guys are too smart to get injured. No way will one of the Pistons not land right after a dunk/rebound. They are aware of their bodies.

I mean Tinsley seems quite content with being injured and his style of play generally leads to injuries. The guy just doesn't know how to use his body or land properly. It's a certain awareness. I don't think it has a damn thing to do with conditioning.

I think Jermaine to a degree, lacks awareness about his body and this is why he often has minor injuries through the season. I enjoy Jermaine's passion this year, i think his passion is unrivaled. Sure, i made the JO is the worst Pacer ever (out of anger, obviously)...but he wasn't playing well and his attitude was horrible for a while this year. And obviously in my book do be a worst pacer ever, you have to be a lot more than just a role player. But anyways, i dont want to derail the message im trying to convey here.

There is nothing outrageously special about the conditioning of the Wallace Brothers and hell.... all of Detroit. I think somewhere along the line, they learned to play smart basketball, this means being aware of your body.

I'd almost consider them a lock to win the finals this year, because none of their guys will get injured....and every other team probably will be dealing with banged up/injured players in the playoffs.

Tinsley is not going to learn, he is a street baller. He gets satisfaction out of circus passes, circus dribbling, circus drives, circus layups. He seems least concerned with winning of all the Pacers, but of course he could just be a reserved/unexpressive person....i'm willing to accept that.

My point is, players who are injured a lot have no one to blame but themselves. If I was a coach I would yank players for putting their bodies at risk.

I don't watch the Pistons a lot so maybe Kstat can elaborate here, the few times I have seen them play....I RARELY see their players even get close to a situation where they might get injured.

I think this type of mentality is vastly underrated in the NBA. Seems like under Carlisle we've been dealing with all sorts of injuries, but I don't remember many injuries back in the "old days" of course I wasn't very old back in the old days, thats why I asked the question about how many injuries we had under Larry Brown.

Kstat
01-17-2006, 04:03 PM
I think it has more to do with the pistons (A) not plying out of position banging against much stronger players, and (B) being a finesse team. They dont absorb as much contact as most other teams, because they all pass and shoot the ball so well. They expend much less effort than most teams per game.

If you watch the Pistons play, they absorb less contact than any team in the NBA, bar none. Aside from turning an ankle (which Ben does quite a bit), they dont get involved in many collisions.

I would disagree that there are two pistons that are outragously conditioned, Rip and Ben. Ben's a 6'8" center but he's chisled out of solid granite. He's not going to wear down physically, because he's in such awesome shape.

Rip's the biggest health-nut in the NBA. He's got his own personal chef making him nothing but diet and energy food every night. He's insanely durable, even by NBA standards. He never drinks beer, eats cheeseburgers, or parties late after games.

Fool
01-17-2006, 04:09 PM
I thought it was just the fact that the Pistons are "the luckiest team in NBA history"?

Jon Theodore
01-17-2006, 04:11 PM
Damn Rip really is a Reggie Miller clone, I didn't know that about him...but it certainly makes sense.

Kstat
01-17-2006, 04:14 PM
Damn Rip really is a Reggie Miller clone, I didn't know that about him...but it certainly makes sense.

I remember Rip was featured in Men's health magazine, and he referred to his body as a sportscar. "You only get the most out of it if you give it premium fuel." He realizes his cardiovascular shape is the one physical advantage he has over every other guard, so he trains his body every day to keep it.

Unclebuck
01-17-2006, 04:17 PM
I think it has more to do with the pistons (A) not plying out of position banging against much stronger players, and (B) being a finesse team. They dont absorb as much contact as most other teams, because they all pass and shoot the ball so well. They expend much less effort than most teams per game.

If you watch the Pistons play, they absorb less contact than any team in the NBA, bar none. Aside from turning an ankle (which Ben does quite a bit), they dont get involved in many collisions.





Do you really believe that. Seems like a looney theory to me.

I don't consider the Pistons a finesse team at all.

They just happen to have players who are not injury prone.

SoupIsGood
01-17-2006, 04:19 PM
If the Pistons are finesse, it is the most physical kind of finesse there is.

Kstat
01-17-2006, 04:19 PM
My last point is this:

The Pistons going back to larry brown have been a passing-oriented offense. There is no isolation of one player going 1-on-1 and initiating contact. It's much more free-flowing, and typically ends up with a player taking an shot that doesnt involve getting hammered.

Hicks
01-17-2006, 04:23 PM
I imagine playing small ball would cause excess wear on the body. Particularly 3's and 4's playing at 4 and 5, like Granger or JO. Granger seems like a pretty solid/chissled guy himself (wirey-strong), so he may (or not) be able to take it, but JO is someone who's body just can't seem to take that for a full season. There's no shame in it, it's simply how it is.

Kstat
01-17-2006, 04:24 PM
Do you really believe that. Seems like a looney theory to me.

I don't consider the Pistons a finesse team at all.

They just happen to have players who are not injury prone.

That's the biggest misconception in the NBA, UB.

The Pistons are either short or rail-thin at 4 of 5 NBA positions. Their most physically imposing player is their 6'8" center.

The only Piston that can physically push around everybody else at his position is Billups.

Everything they do is predacated on quickness. They beat other teams to the spot on defense, they dont hack people in the post, and they force other teams to beat them over the top.

They also have a lot of length, which is effective at playing 2-3 feet off their men, and still bothering the shot without being physical.

On offense, it's all motion and ball movement. They thrive on mid-range shooting, not in the paint.

What do I have to support this? Two points:

1. The Pistons are last in the NBA in fouls committed.

2. The Pistons are 2nd in the NBA in layups allowed. They dont get physical at the rim. If they can't block it, they cut their losses and let it go.

Ragnar
01-17-2006, 04:33 PM
I dont think its style of play. Maybe some but by no means all of it.

I dont know what the deal is with Jamaal. I dont see this out of controll thing that you seem to see. When he came into the league he was not in good condition and that can certainly lead to injuries. But he has improved his conditioning a lot over the last couple of years. Maybe he should go back to cheesburgers and beer.

Kstat
01-17-2006, 04:34 PM
Tinsley always looks out-of-shape to me. Dunno why.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-17-2006, 04:43 PM
In four years with Brown, only two players lasted all 82 games. Mark Jackson twice and Antonio Davis twice. Of course most players rarely play all 82 games in a season injured or not.
Games Missed by Key Players (over 10)
'93-'94
Dale Davis 16
Byron Scott 15
Pooh Richardson 45
Haywoode Workman 17
Vern Fleming 27
'94-'95
Antonio Davis 38
Vern Fleming 27
Haywood Workman 13
'95-'96
Rik Smits 19
Eddie Johnson 20
Travis Best 23
'96-'97
Rik Smits 30
Derrick McKey 32
Jalen Rose 16
Haywood Workman 78
Fred Hoiberg 35
Under Bird
'97-98
Derrick Mckey 25
Fred Hoiberg 17
'98-'99 (50 games season)
Derrick Mckey 37
'99-'00
Al Harrington 32
Chris Mullin 35
Derrick Mckey 50
Under Zeke
'00-'01
Jalen Rose 10
Sam Perkins 18
Jeff Foster 11
Jonathan Bender 23
Derrick Mckey 16
'01-'02
Jermaine O'neal 10
Al Harrington 38
I think Ron Mercer missed a number of games too. I'm too lazy to do the math.
'02-'03
Ron Artest 13
Reggie Miller 12
Ron Mercer 10
Jonathan Bender 36
Erick Strickland 11
Austin Croshere 33
Under Rick
'03-'04
Jamal Tinsley 32
Jonathan Bender 59
Kenny Anderson 38
Scot Pollard 16
'04-'05
Ron Artest 75
Jermaine O'neal 38
Stephen Jackson 31
Jamal Tinsley 42
Reggie Miller 16
Anthony Johnson 19
Jeff Foster 21
David Harrison 37
Jonathan Bender 75
Scot Pollard 33

Looks like more players missed due to injury under Larry Brown than any of the other coaches in the last ten years. If player age , suspensions , benchings(Tinsley/Anderson)and Bender are taken into consideration it looks like a wash really. Although last year , even if you take suspensions into conderation alot of games missed to injury.

Jon Theodore
01-17-2006, 04:48 PM
Ok i didn't know, good work on finding those stats.

UB i already stated how empty of a statement "injury prone" is. Just saying the Pistons aren't Injury Prone basically means absolutely nothing.

And most layups allowed is HUGE and only further proves my theory true. thanks kstat

Kegboy
01-17-2006, 04:59 PM
Now, don't you know, it's all David Craig's fault. Can't you tell, we've been so much better this year with Hicks' little brother as our trainer.

:rollout:

Hicks
01-17-2006, 05:06 PM
My little brother? Is that the new fun knickname now that my "girlfriend" is long gone?

Kegboy
01-17-2006, 05:13 PM
My little brother? Is that the new fun knickname now that my "girlfriend" is long gone?

:nod: :-p

8.9_seconds
01-17-2006, 05:15 PM
Slightly OT, but I heard a story that in High School Rip made a deal with his track coach that if had won his races every meet he never had to come to practice, is that true?

Gamble
01-17-2006, 07:21 PM
Looking at most injury prone players it would be the slasher or the
big man with bad feet that would get hurt alot. The Pistons don't
typically slash unless its the oversized billups but Rip is always
running off the screen.

Tinsley gets hurt because he can not play
smart long enough. The show-man-ship gets him blasted more than
anything. There is also a very good chance you are going to get
hurt the more you jump for the rebound and land on someones foot.
I haven't seen many of Bens twisted ankles but i bet its because
he has to jump a foot higher than everyone else.

Jon Theodore
01-17-2006, 07:32 PM
you guys love ignoring the obvious.

The pistons (this year) play smarter basketball that any team in the past 5-10 years. Part of that involves avoiding injury. Jamaal Tinsley isn't smart enough to play like that, we need to get him out of here if we plan on ever making it to the finals anytime soon.

The only point i was making seemed quite obvious, i was just wanting more input. I say chronically injured players are normally chronically injured due to the way they play the game.

Except for back problems, those are a different story.

But with Tinsley its always his ankles...or his bicep recently.

Bball
01-17-2006, 07:48 PM
you guys love ignoring the obvious.

The pistons (this year) play smarter basketball that any team in the past 5-10 years. Part of that involves avoiding injury. Jamaal Tinsley isn't smart enough to play like that, we need to get him out of here if we plan on ever making it to the finals anytime soon.

The only point i was making seemed quite obvious, i was just wanting more input. I say chronically injured players are normally chronically injured due to the way they play the game.

Except for back problems, those are a different story.

But with Tinsley its always his ankles...or his bicep recently.

I think, at least in terms of Tinsley, you are onto something.

-Bball

Jon Theodore
01-17-2006, 10:14 PM
Do we know exactly WHEN Tinsley hurt his arm and what he was doing.

This could be evidence.

Bball
01-17-2006, 10:31 PM
Do we know exactly WHEN Tinsley hurt his arm and what he was doing.



...Reaching for a chicken tender after the game...


-Bball

SoupIsGood
01-17-2006, 10:43 PM
Do we know exactly WHEN Tinsley hurt his arm and what he was doing.

This could be evidence.

I'm starting to wonder if his arm is even injured.

The 'oops!' diagnosis last year. The possibilty of hemmoroids the other year? Harmonica insisting that there was something to the Sinuspoutitis. The recent whispers of some kind of somatoform happening.

Going into full Bball mode here, I'm almost inclined to finally agree with him about Tinsley, at least partially.


I'm not going to draw any conclusions just yet, but something is not right.

Bball
01-17-2006, 11:06 PM
I'm starting to wonder if his arm is even injured.

The 'oops!' diagnosis last year. The possibilty of hemmoroids the other year? Harmonica insisting that there was something to the Sinuspoutitis. The recent whispers of some kind of somatoform happening.

Going into full Bball mode here, I'm almost inclined to finally agree with him about Tinsley, at least partially.


I'm not going to draw any conclusions just yet, but something is not right.

Strange...

....and I figured he was really injured... Al and Clark (or was it Quinn) were talking about him working out but not using that arm so I assumed nobody would run an elaborate ruse to that degree.

I don't think anyone has ever mentioned where/when/how (in the game) he actually injured his arm... [grassy knoll] Maybe it's injured but it wasn't injured in the game at all???? Maybe he was doing something he shouldn't have (fighting, arm wrestling, dustpan waving, etc???) [/grassy knoll]

-Bball

SoupIsGood
01-17-2006, 11:10 PM
Strange...

....and I figured he was really injured... Al and Clark (or was it Quinn) were talking about him working out but not using that arm so I assumed nobody would run an elaborate ruse to that degree.

I don't think anyone has ever mentioned where/when/how (in the game) he actually injured his arm... [grassy knoll] Maybe it's injured but it wasn't injured in the game at all???? Maybe he was doing something he shouldn't have (fighting, arm wrestling, dustpan waving, etc???) [/grassy knoll]

-Bball

Maybe his arm really is injured, but something just isn't right. No clue what it is, I'm kinda thinking out loud. Just too many weird situations

Anthem
01-17-2006, 11:18 PM
Tinsley is injury-prone, no doubt. But I don't think it has anything to do with his "uncontrolled style of play."

Bball
01-17-2006, 11:23 PM
Maybe his arm really is injured, but something just isn't right. No clue what it is, I'm kinda thinking out loud. Just too many weird situations

If we can assume the intial report/diagnosis of a torn muscle was correct (and God knows we probably should never assume anything our medical staff or Star first reports is accurate) then the only thing I was skeptical of was the initial prognosis. Wasn't it like 5 days and they expected him back? Or was it 3 days? Or was it 3 games? In any case, that just seemed WAY too soon.

-Bball

CableKC
01-17-2006, 11:25 PM
Tinsley is injury-prone, no doubt. But I don't think it has anything to do with his "uncontrolled style of play."

^^^I disagree.....how many times have we seen Tinsley drive to the hoop.....run into a wall of Center/PFs bounce off of them and then end up on the floor holding his ankle?

I have seen it at least twice......on tv and during one of the Warriors-Pacers game.

He's good a driving to the hoop...cutting and slashing to make a basket.....the problem is that he somehow ends up injuring himself when he does this.

PacerMan
01-17-2006, 11:25 PM
I remember Rip was featured in Men's health magazine, and he referred to his body as a sportscar. "You only get the most out of it if you give it premium fuel." He realizes his cardiovascular shape is the one physical advantage he has over every other guard, so he trains his body every day to keep it.

That only works if you are lucky enough to have the structure to support intense, repetitive, over the top workouts.
There are others that WOULD work as hard, but can't because their body betrays the efforts by breaking down from overwork.(structure, bones, ligaments, etc)

SoupIsGood
01-17-2006, 11:31 PM
If we can assume the intial report/diagnosis of a torn muscle was correct (and God knows we probably should never assume anything our medical staff or Star first reports is accurate) then the only thing I was skeptical of was the initial prognosis. Wasn't it like 5 days and they expected him back? Or was it 3 days? Or was it 3 games? In any case, that just seemed WAY too soon.

-Bball

I'm already too far out onto the grassy knoll for my liking, so I'll keep it simple. I just think that maybe it isn't the medical staff's fault. Maybe Tins is a very odd case, for whatever reason.

Bball
01-17-2006, 11:45 PM
I'm already too far out onto the grassy knoll for my liking, so I'll keep it simple. I just think that maybe it isn't the medical staff's fault. Maybe Tins is a very odd case, for whatever reason.

Are you saying he faking the injury... or it's severity... because he's not happy about something?

-Bball

Jermaniac
01-17-2006, 11:48 PM
How do you fake a torn bicep? That isnt like saying your tooth hurts. And what does Tinsley have to be mad about? He is starting and gets as many shots as he wants, and there isnt even no question about him starting. If Jamaal plays Jamaal starts thats just how it is. He is injury prone, he isnt faking injuries. The guy could barley walk against the Pistons and the Celtics in the playoffs, I doubt he would fake injuries.

Arcadian
01-18-2006, 12:03 AM
I'm a little surprised Tins' injuries haven't been attributed to God's judgment on him. There is no way God would like someone seen pouting in the Miami game.

My honest opinion is becoming that Tins isn't that tough--his body can't hold up to the NBA rigors and/or he has a low thresshold for pain.

SoupIsGood
01-18-2006, 12:09 AM
Are you saying he faking the injury... or it's severity... because he's not happy about something?

-Bball



I just think something is 'up,' we're not being told about something.

Maybe it will be like last year, where all of a sudden we'll be informed that Tinsley is actually out until the end of the regular season. Or maybe not, this is mostly a gut feeling.

Kaufman
01-18-2006, 12:49 AM
Don't forget, Tinsley = Somatization.

Don't forget, don't ever forget.

Peck
01-18-2006, 12:49 AM
God knows I'm all for calling out players when I think they could play through something.

But in Tinsley's case I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Duncan hit him at the elbow & seeing Jamaal in pain.

However as I've stated several times lately. I no longer care if he is injured or not, it has come to the point where he is nothing but a liability to our franchise & he needs to be moved on.

I hate saying that because I like Jamaal.

Gamble
01-18-2006, 07:12 AM
Jamaal is a long list of liablities to this franchise. You ever feel that
one mistake only leads to another? Don't get me wrong no one could
have predicted JT injuries but like (God forgive me) Kstat said he has
never looked in shape. If Jamaal didn't get injuried so much do you
think we would have signed 4 pg?

Fool
01-18-2006, 09:54 AM
My last point is this:

The Pistons going back to larry brown have been a passing-oriented offense. There is no isolation of one player going 1-on-1 and initiating contact. It's much more free-flowing, and typically ends up with a player taking an shot that doesnt involve getting hammered.


Thats not true. I'd say 1/4 of Chuancey's points come off going 1-on-1 and driving to create contact (more when the team is struggling to score). Also, Rasheed is often isolated "when he has his mind right" on the low block to take his man 1-on-1 though its not "slashing to draw contact".

Bball
01-18-2006, 04:47 PM
Jamaal is a long list of liablities to this franchise. You ever feel that
one mistake only leads to another? Don't get me wrong no one could
have predicted JT injuries but like (God forgive me) Kstat said he has
never looked in shape. If Jamaal didn't get injuried so much do you
think we would have signed 4 pg?

There was a reason that JO wanted Mercer, Artest, and Tinsley gone. I don't know what that reason was but obviously management didn't listen. That reason could've been JO was too full of himself... or it could've been valid reasons that we may or may not be able to guess. In any case, management did as per usual and continued forward as if nothing was wrong or would go away if ignored. JO was signed as the face of the franchise and only Mercer wasn't kept.

Is it any question how a team built around that type of foundation would have chemistry issues?


-Bball

beast23
01-18-2006, 05:48 PM
I think the notion that players suffer injuries because they are not playing “smart” or playing with “reckless abandon” is a bunch of hooey. And I think that Detroit not having as many injuries at this time or that they play smarter than any team of the past 5-10 years is a bunch of BS as well.

Players are not usually injured because of their mechanics or due to the fact that they are not taking a proper amount of caution. Players sustain major injuries for a variety of reasons:

Playing with a minor injury that becomes major upon re-injury
Not being in proper position (arriving late)
Hard screens - lack of communication from teammates
Landing /stepping on another players foot
Loose balls / rebounds – unavoidable contact with another player
Fouls on contested shots or while contesting for the ball

I think most would recognize about Detroit is a good defensive team that rebounds well. Therefore, they probably have better communication than the average team to help avoid running into hard screens, they are obviously very good with defensive positioning and they are probably a little better at establishing rebounding position which would discourage opponents in some cases from contesting for rebounds, therefore avoiding some fouls and also landing on other players’ feet.

If, as Kstat says, Detroit’s offense has evolved into a passing oriented offense, that would result in lesser contesting of mid-range and perimeter shots, resulting in fewer injuries from rushing defenders.

rabid
01-19-2006, 12:51 PM
In four years with Brown, only two players lasted all 82 games. Mark Jackson twice and Antonio Davis twice. Of course most players rarely play all 82 games in a season injured or not.
Games Missed by Key Players (over 10)
'93-'94
Dale Davis 16
Byron Scott 15
Pooh Richardson 45
Haywoode Workman 17
Vern Fleming 27
'94-'95
Antonio Davis 38
Vern Fleming 27
Haywood Workman 13
'95-'96
Rik Smits 19
Eddie Johnson 20
Travis Best 23
'96-'97
Rik Smits 30
Derrick McKey 32
Jalen Rose 16
Haywood Workman 78
Fred Hoiberg 35
Under Bird
'97-98
Derrick Mckey 25
Fred Hoiberg 17
'98-'99 (50 games season)
Derrick Mckey 37
'99-'00
Al Harrington 32
Chris Mullin 35
Derrick Mckey 50
Under Zeke
'00-'01
Jalen Rose 10
Sam Perkins 18
Jeff Foster 11
Jonathan Bender 23
Derrick Mckey 16
'01-'02
Jermaine O'neal 10
Al Harrington 38
I think Ron Mercer missed a number of games too. I'm too lazy to do the math.
'02-'03
Ron Artest 13
Reggie Miller 12
Ron Mercer 10
Jonathan Bender 36
Erick Strickland 11
Austin Croshere 33
Under Rick
'03-'04
Jamal Tinsley 32
Jonathan Bender 59
Kenny Anderson 38
Scot Pollard 16
'04-'05
Ron Artest 75
Jermaine O'neal 38
Stephen Jackson 31
Jamal Tinsley 42
Reggie Miller 16
Anthony Johnson 19
Jeff Foster 21
David Harrison 37
Jonathan Bender 75
Scot Pollard 33

Looks like more players missed due to injury under Larry Brown than any of the other coaches in the last ten years. If player age , suspensions , benchings(Tinsley/Anderson)and Bender are taken into consideration it looks like a wash really. Although last year , even if you take suspensions into conderation alot of games missed to injury.

The problem with this is that those guys weren't always actually injured, but were just on the injured list. Until this year, you basically had 3 guys that had to be called "injured" whether they were or not. 3 guys per game, 82 games, so at least 246 "games missed because of injury" per year.

Granted, a lot (if not most) of the injuries you're listing were real. But there's no real way to tell unless you're talking about starters missing games. For example, Rik Smits missing all those games was due to legit injury at least 90 percent of the time. On the other hand, I'm not so sure if Haywoode Workman was really hurt for all 78 games he missed in 96-97, or if Derrick McKey was really injured for over the half the games he was available for in his last 4 seasons in the league.

So, no offense, but those stats are pretty much moot. On any given night, SOMEBODY had to be "injured," whether they actually were or not.

Since86
01-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Granted, a lot (if not most) of the injuries you're listing were real. But there's no real way to tell unless you're talking about starters missing games. For example, Rik Smits missing all those games was due to legit injury at least 90 percent of the time. On the other hand, I'm not so sure if Haywoode Workman was really hurt for all 78 games he missed in 96-97, or if Derrick McKey was really injured for over the half the games he was available for in his last 4 seasons in the league.

Why would the Pacers place their starting center on the injured reserve, if he wasn't actually injured. It doesn't make sense to do that.

And didn't Woodie tear his ACL during the 96-97 season?

rabid
01-19-2006, 01:16 PM
Good point, I forgot about the ACL injury.

But if you re-read my post, I said that obviously the STARTERS and/or "major" players were probably hurt for most (if not all) games they were out.

But that list has guys like Erick Strickland, Ron Mercer, Fred Hoiberg, Jamaal Tinsley in 03-04 (when he was benched for practically a quarter of the season), Eddie Johnson etc. on them. Some of those guys were starters during certain periods, but these generally were not "crucial" guys and my gut tells me that a lot of those games were more like extended DNP-CDs than legitimate injuries.

I also don't remember McKey being THAT injured for 4 straight years (yes he was hurt sometimes, but he also played a lot of "specialist" minutes, a la Scot Pollard).

My whole point is that you can't just pull up the "games injured" from years past and expect those stats to be very accurate.

Since86
01-19-2006, 01:24 PM
Good point, I forgot about the ACL injury.

But if you re-read my post, I said that obviously the STARTERS and/or "major" players were probably hurt for most (if not all) games they were out.

But that list has guys like Erick Strickland, Ron Mercer, Fred Hoiberg, Jamaal Tinsley in 03-04 (when he was benched for practically a quarter of the season), Eddie Johnson etc. on them. These were not usually "crucial" guys and my gut tells me that a lot of those games were more like extended DNP-CDs than legitimate injuries.

I also don't remember McKey being THAT injured for 4 straight years (yes he was hurt sometimes, but he also played a lot of "specialist" minutes, a la Scot Pollard).

My whole point is that you can't just pull up the "games injured" from years past and expect those stats to be very accurate.

Actually you said 90% of the time, but I'll even forget the details.

A team wouldn't place a major player on the IR even for one game, unless it had something to do with behavioral issues and I don't even see why they'd use the IR for that anyways.

Why can't you use that stat to measure it? In 10yrs are you going think Bender really wasn't injured all this time, and just write it up to other situations?

When does accurate info kick in? 4yrs? 3? Never?