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View Full Version : Okay, how bout Saras 38?



McKeyFan
01-16-2006, 06:08 PM
This game against the Nets again makes me think we need to gve Saras a real change to lead this team. During his stints today, he did make a few mistakes, but he also made several assists for dunks and hit a few threes, and other shots that, in the balance, helped us make good runs while he was in. But Rick can't see the forest for the trees and benches Runi after he makes a mistake or two, while all the while leading the team on significant runs.

Either BBall or Brichard (I think) has said several times they would like to see Saras start for several games and see how we do. Right now, he is just on too many egg shells psychologically. We need someone like him to lead the team and fuel the offense.

He is the kind of guy who will make mistakes here and there. He needs the freedom to do so. We need to see, Carlisle needs to see, if in the long run Runi's overall play helps bring the team to that next level we so desperately need.

We still don't know if he can do that. Anecdotally, to me, it looks like he can. If he can't fine. But let it be shown for a fact. We did, after all, spend a few million to bring the guy here.

Bball
01-16-2006, 06:27 PM
I wonder if Bird and Carlisle are really on the same page these days.

-Bball

cracktower
01-16-2006, 06:31 PM
Saras played a decent game, he made a couple of threes and made a couple of really cool passes. At the same time Jacque Vaughn was really harassing him and had trouble bring the ball upcourt, those two steals was shameful.

Who do you choose a inconsistent PG who can be brilliant on one play and really suck on the next or a PG who is uninspiring but plays hard and produce respectable numbers though obviously not great numbers.

Honestly I don't know, I can only :pray: Jamaal can recover from his injury and come back soon. Jamaal is better then both AJ and Saras.

Ragnar
01-16-2006, 06:31 PM
I dont see Sarunas as a starting pg. He is better than AJ and I hope whenever Jamaal gets back that Sarunas would stay in the backup role.


I think what the team needs to do at this point (and remember I am Tinsley's biggest fan) is to trade Ron for a pg. If Denver is willing to trade Miller than get him!!

We need a pg who is both capable and durable. Aj is not capable and Tins is not durable.

PacerMan
01-16-2006, 06:32 PM
Saras played a decent game, he made a couple of threes and made a couple of really cool passes. At the same time Jacque Vaughn was really harassing him and had trouble bring the ball upcourt, those two steals was shameful.

Who do you choose a inconsistent PG who can be brilliant on one play and really suck on the next or a PG who is uninspiring but plays hard and produce respectable numbers though obviously not great numbers.

Honestly I don't know, I can only :pray: Jamaal can recover from his injury and come back soon. Jamaal is better then both AJ and Saras.

Jamaal is better than AJ and Sara put together.

cracktower
01-16-2006, 06:35 PM
Jamaal is better than AJ and Sara put together.

are you saying Jamaal is better then a PG who can shoot and pass like Saras and play decent D like AJ:laugh:

Hicks
01-16-2006, 06:39 PM
I dont see Sarunas as a starting pg. He is better than AJ and I hope whenever Jamaal gets back that Sarunas would stay in the backup role.


I think what the team needs to do at this point (and remember I am Tinsley's biggest fan) is to trade Ron for a pg. If Denver is willing to trade Miller than get him!!

We need a pg who is both capable and durable. Aj is not capable and Tins is not durable.

I'm not saying they would, but if DEN would be willing to give us Miller and Martin for Tinsley and Artest, would you do it?

DeS
01-16-2006, 06:40 PM
I think what the team needs to do at this point (and remember I am Tinsley's biggest fan) is to trade Ron for a pg. If Denver is willing to trade Miller than get him!!
We need a pg who is both capable and durable. Aj is not capable and Tins is not durable.
No! I don't think that our PG's are the weakest spot. Even this game our backup PG's had quite good game. We surely could have won if other players had similar performances. We lose because Danny was a non-factor this time and Jax was 0 (or a minus). Imho we surely do not need yet another PG at half of the season.

cracktower
01-16-2006, 06:42 PM
I'm not saying they would, but if DEN would be willing to give us Miller and Martin for Tinsley and Artest, would you do it?

From a talent point of view fu#k yeah, but when you see how much they are getting paid:-o

SoupIsGood
01-16-2006, 06:46 PM
Andre Miller is nothing special, if we get him at PG it'd be an upgrade but not a PG I'd be expecting to take us anywhere.

Ragnar
01-16-2006, 06:49 PM
I'm not saying they would, but if DEN would be willing to give us Miller and Martin for Tinsley and Artest, would you do it?

No I sitll would not trade Jamaal because he is better than Miller and we dont need Martin.

We can send them AJ as a throw in since he has had his best career game against them but the deal (that I also see as realistic) would be something along the lines of Pollard and Ron for Miller and Najera. Throw in AJ for whatever player they dont want.

Ragnar
01-16-2006, 06:51 PM
No! I don't think that our PG's are the weakest spot. Even this game our backup PG's had quite good game. We surely could have won if other players had similar performances. We lose because Danny was a non-factor this time and Jax was 0 (or a minus). Imho we surely do not need yet another PG at half of the season.

Jermaine being out has a big impact on our game. We can still win with him out if Jamaal is healthy or we play a team with as bad of a pg as AJ. But to play against Jason Kidd without Jermaine and without Tinsley is not going to o our way 9 times out of 19. I thought Granger played fairly well keeping in mind he is a rookie.

Mourning
01-16-2006, 07:00 PM
I'm not saying they would, but if DEN would be willing to give us Miller and Martin for Tinsley and Artest, would you do it?

I know I would. Finally a durable PG that can play some decent defense and pass at the sametime. His shooting isn't much good, but I'm willing to look over that as Sarunas as the backup could provide that with certain matchups. His contract stinks though.

K-Mart, though not nearly the player he was with the Nets, due to Kidd beying such a superb PG that made Martin better then he would have been probably about anywhere else, is still a good defensive PF who can intimidate, bang and actually score some points. I don't like his overall attitude and his GODAWFULL contract, but that doesn't make him a bad player.

Ron and Tins for Miller and K-Mart, yeah, baby!!! :dancingba

:D :D :D

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

DeS
01-16-2006, 07:14 PM
Jermaine being out has a big impact on our game. We can still win with him out if Jamaal is healthy or we play a team with as bad of a pg as AJ. But to play against Jason Kidd without Jermaine and without Tinsley is not going to o our way 9 times out of 19. I thought Granger played fairly well keeping in mind he is a rookie.
Maybe we could have won this game with Tins, but it still does not make a sense to me if You want trade AJ and/or Artest for another PG. I think (half/healhty)Tins/Saras is a very good PG tandem and no upgrade at the spot will make significant difference (we also must take into account, that PG requires more time to adapt than other spot). And if Tins can't play >1/2 of the games - there is no sense to stick with him.
IMHO we need a scorer at other position.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-16-2006, 09:42 PM
Andre Miller puts up good numbers on Craptacular teams.

Kegboy
01-16-2006, 10:12 PM
I'd love to get Andre, just too watch everyone ***** about him, too.

SoupIsGood
01-16-2006, 10:21 PM
I'd love to get Andre, just too watch everyone ***** about him, too.

Still trying to generate that quality basketball discussion, huh?

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-16-2006, 11:01 PM
I'll tell you one thing. Tinsley isn't durable. Period.

...and he's only getting older and more vulnerable. Truth hurts.

Mourning
01-17-2006, 02:17 AM
Better to ***** on a player who actually plays then to ***** on a player who never plays ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Peck
01-17-2006, 02:35 AM
I'm not saying they would, but if DEN would be willing to give us Miller and Martin for Tinsley and Artest, would you do it?


It has now come to the point, well actually last season it came to this point but since this is Donnie we are talking about here it will take a little longer, that Jamaal's liabilities now outweigh his assets.

19 games played 15 games missed & no end in sight.

Sorry, same story differant year.

Right now Ed Gill is more valuable to our franchise than Jamaal is & this is coming from a guy who is a fan of Jamaal Tinsley.

But the team we put on the floor yesterday was no differant than the team we put on the floor after the suspensions last season minus the fact that Jax was playing.

No Artest, No O'Neal, No Pollard, No Bender & still no Tinsley.

I actually feel very sorry for the Simons in a way. Look at the amount of money that is just sitting there wasted.

Injury's are one thing but with Jamaal it is now just beyond being patient.

I'm not saying it's his fault I'm not saying he is faking it, I'm just saying it no longer matters.

We cannot have a point guard who plays 5 games then misses 10 then plays 20 games & misses 6 & so on & so on until the playoffs till he will once again enter with some gimpy leg or muscle pull or something.

We need an upgrade at the one & we need it now.

A.J. is a good backup, Saras is also a good backup. Pick one, trade the other & let's get a new starting 1 & move on.

Julius Sour
01-17-2006, 05:27 AM
Let Saras play.
He is Your starting and finishing PG. Start him 20 games in a row, with ~30-35 mins PT and Saras will do his job. Today I've watched LAL vs MIA. The Glove on Kobe... what this has to do about Defence ?????? But Payton was on Kobe all 4th qtr. So the D issue is not the one that we should be arguing MORE. Saras can play average defence and is The Genereal on offence... He's impact maker, but none of us would do any impact on their "team" (firm, corp.) if we will have to change departments creative <-> production ONCE IN 2 WEEKS (or even twice).

Saras IS NOT A SG. PURE PG. dot com:)

Js

NPFII
01-17-2006, 06:24 AM
A.J. is a good backup, Saras is also a good backup. Pick one, trade the other & let's get a new starting 1 & move on.

I dont get it...

You want to trade AJ/Saras and keep Tinsley after all what you said before?! [to which I agree whole-heartedly]

Or did you mean trade Tinsley and AJ/Saras for a decent starting PG (Andre Miller?) ?

Kestas
01-17-2006, 06:36 AM
I dont get it...

You want to trade AJ/Saras and keep Tinsley after all what you said before?! [to which I agree whole-heartedly]

Or did you mean trade Tinsley and AJ/Saras for a decent starting PG (Andre Miller?) ?

trading Saras for somebody of a simmilar price (which is very low) would be insane. and Bird would probably have to retire from management as well.
Saras will be the (co)leader of this team in a year or so imho.

Chauncey
01-17-2006, 07:42 AM
Saras is not a starting PG for an NBA contender. If he's going to be your starter, you're basically saying that you can't compete with the top teams in the league. That may very well be the case, but those hoping that Saras is going to be a starter for years to come are sorely mistaken. He's a 6th/7th man that you can throw in at PG and SG. Thats it. He'll never be able to give you more than he gives up.

marcd
01-17-2006, 08:31 AM
Saras is not a starting PG for an NBA contender. If he's going to be your starter, you're basically saying that you can't compete with the top teams in the league. That may very well be the case, but those hoping that Saras is going to be a starter for years to come are sorely mistaken. He's a 6th/7th man that you can throw in at PG and SG. Thats it. He'll never be able to give you more than he gives up.


The exact same thing was said about Tony Parker when he came into the league. His defense was suspect and his leadership qualities were questioned. All he has done is win two rings with SA. He is an essential part of that equation. Same with Chauncey in DET, how many people said he wouldn't be able to get it done, now he is arguably the MVP of the league right now. I am not saying Saras is in that same league, now; but we won't know if we don't try. He is a born leader and has proven it with his previous teams, we are lacking direction and floor leadership from our PG position, why not try him? What the hell did we bring him here for? To back up Jamaal? To do that, he would have to be injured at this point so he could carry Jamaal's bags. Let the kid start, bring AJ off the bench and fire this thing up!

MarcD

PacerMan
01-17-2006, 08:44 AM
are you saying Jamaal is better then a PG who can shoot and pass like Saras and play decent D like AJ:laugh:

Uh, think that's pretty clearly stated........................

able
01-17-2006, 08:46 AM
uhh Tony Parker 28th pick first round, fits in SanAn, 5 yrs in the NBA for a Cham Team and is still learning the trade.
Chauncey Billups, 3rd pick 1997 and took 6 or 7 years to "learn the trade"

Saras; undrafted, 29 years old with no BA experience

I do think that the comparison goes limp.

1: Do we know Saras can stay healthy? no
2: Can he handle the ball like the above mentioned? no
3: Can he handle the ball like Tins? no

He is good, even very good for a backup, starter on an expansion team, but not no a team, that wants to contend for a title.
And he is simply to old to go through the development that the above mentioned players went through.

Unclebuck
01-17-2006, 09:55 AM
Right now Ed Gill is more valuable to our franchise than Jamaal.

We need an upgrade at the one & we need it now.

A.J. is a good backup, Saras is also a good backup. Pick one, trade the other & let's get a new starting 1 & move on.


I agree 100%.

I was in favor of making Saras the Pacers starting point guard. I advocated that after the first few games of the season. At least he can stay healthy. But his poor defense and his inability to penetrate and or start the offense against decent pressure is just too big to overcome. yes his defense is improved, but overall he is a non-factor at that end. Not that Tinsley's defense is much better at all.

I'd like to see what Earl Watson could do at the Pacers starter. He and saras as a combo I think could be good enough, if we get the right players around them. Otherwise the Pacers will have to take a chance on someone else.

Jerry_McGuire
01-17-2006, 12:34 PM
TRADE SARAS NOW!

(To Cleveland)

ssmall
01-17-2006, 12:58 PM
yes please

Peck
01-17-2006, 01:09 PM
I dont get it...

You want to trade AJ/Saras and keep Tinsley after all what you said before?! [to which I agree whole-heartedly]

Or did you mean trade Tinsley and AJ/Saras for a decent starting PG (Andre Miller?) ?

Yes, I meant to trade Jamaal & either A.J. or Saras to get an upgrade at the one.

I wasn't impressed with Earl Watson when we played vs. Denver but as of now I am more than willing to give it a try.

Jamaal is just the same old song & dance year after year after year & point guard is to important of a spot on the floor for us to just keep having to have three functioning point guards.

I like A.J. but I also like what Saras brings to the table.

So I can live with whichever one they choose to go with.

I love what Jamaal can do with the ball & my preferance would be for him to be the p.g. but I just can no longer stand watching year after year after year of the guy playing about 50% of the regular season & always being lame come playoff time.

Jerry_McGuire
01-17-2006, 01:13 PM
Trade Saras Now topic.
Other teams would be much happier to have him, and Saras would
be playing much better with any other team.

At the moment - Saras is not showing even 30% of what he's capable.
And with atmosphere, attitude and coaching in the team like that - I'm
afraid he'll never do...

- Tinsley hates him
- Jackson hates him even more
- Carlise hates him
- Ragnar, Able and Jermaniac hate him too :cry:


The guy does everything he can for his team (with excellent statistics,
inspiration and quality by the way...) - however he's tossed up by
coaching and agonized chemistry construction in every way it's possible:

- has to bare unexcusable experiments - like to play in SG, when he's a
pure PG
- is benched everytime he starts to play and shoot "too good"
- or is benched after first couple mistakes, despite that he had brought a spark
- doesn't get passes from his teammates almost at all
- almost every time has to give himself away to cheer up other players,
who sometimes remind me of sleeping beauties, who overdosed cofeine
free coffee...
- has to to play in awful team atmosphere and relationship conditions,
where key players pout and don't respond to efforts to build up frienly or
at least healthy relationship.


The whole set of conditions make Saras perform way below his own
average level. My suggestion - sell Saras and stay with Tinsley and Aj like
before. Saras would have a chance to lead any other team to champions
title, and everyone stays satisfied (except Bird :eyebrow: ).

Hicks
01-17-2006, 01:23 PM
Sarunas has looked his best when we play up-tempo. Since Rick will never do that on purpose, Saras will never look better as long as both are here IMO.

PacerMan
01-17-2006, 01:24 PM
Trade Saras Now topic.
Other teams would be much happier to have him, and Saras would
be playing much better with any other team.

At the moment - Saras is not showing even 30% of what he's capable.
And with atmosphere, attitude and coaching in the team like that - I'm
afraid he'll never do...

- Tinsley hates him
- Jackson hates him even more
- Carlise hates him
- Ragnar, Able and Jermaniac hate him too :cry:


The guy does everything he can for his team (with excellent statistics,
inspiration and quality by the way...) - however he's tossed up by
coaching and agonized chemistry construction in every way it's possible:

- has to bare unexcusable experiments - like to play in SG, when he's a
pure PG
- is benched everytime he starts to play and shoot "too good"
- or is benched after first couple mistakes, despite that he had brought a spark
- doesn't get passes from his teammates almost at all
- almost every time has to give himself away to cheer up other players,
who sometimes remind me of sleeping beauties, who overdosed cofeine
free coffee...
- has to to play in awful team atmosphere and relationship conditions,
where key players pout and don't respond to efforts to build up frienly or
at least healthy relationship.


The whole set of conditions make Saras perform way below his own
average level. My suggestion - sell Saras and stay with Tinsley and Aj like
before. Saras would have a chance to lead any other team to champions
title, and everyone stays satisfied (except Bird :eyebrow: ).

Wow, you must be psychic!! (or psychotic) :)


(kidding)

Peck
01-17-2006, 01:35 PM
Sarunas has looked his best when we play up-tempo. Since Rick will never do that on purpose, Saras will never look better as long as both are here IMO.

There may be a real kernal of truth to what you are saying.

Anthem
01-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Sarunas has looked his best when we play up-tempo. Since Rick will never do that on purpose, Saras will never look better as long as both are here IMO.
Same is true of Tinsley...

PacerMan
01-17-2006, 02:46 PM
are you saying Jamaal is better then a PG who can shoot and pass like Saras and play decent D like AJ:laugh:


Are you saying that a guy who can't dribble the ball over the time line with pressure or play defense is better than Jamaal. LOL
Or are you saying that AJ's inability to run an offense (or dribble the ball over the time line with pressure) is preferable.
ROTF

Mourning
01-17-2006, 03:05 PM
Are you saying that a guy who can't dribble the ball over the time line with pressure or play defense is better than Jamaal. LOL
Or are you saying that AJ's inability to run an offense (or dribble the ball over the time line with pressure) is preferable.
ROTF

"YES!" to both, atleast they play a meaningfull amount of games.

Tinsley is clearly the best PG we have, however his impact is very limited overall, because:

* the limited amount of minutes he plays per game (around 30 though a lot of fans believe he should play about 28 to keep him as healthy as possible).

* the huge amount of games that he is missing due to injury. Usually players who get older only get more injuries instead of less, so to me this is a clear warning sign of things to come in the coming years.

I'm starting to think of Tinsley as Brandon was with the T-Wolves, although that was more extreme, we could get something compareable in a short while with Tins which is something I don't want to risk. The warning sign is really on if you ask me.

Rightnow Sarunas and AJ are more valuable then Tinsley, because they are playing and he's not and it's not the first time that he's not playing.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Jon Theodore
01-17-2006, 04:05 PM
I feel so bad for Sarunas, he would clearly be playing soooo much better with Cleveland. They have Mike Brown who is a great players coach, he has a close friend there, and he would probably be their best point guard. Lebron could get the ball up the floor for Runi, so that wouldn't be an issue.

I totally agree with what the Lithuanian guy said. Sarunas looked sooo good when he first came here because he was proving himself. Now, the system/chemisty issues are really bogging him down...you can just see it.

I just absolutely love watching this guy play, you can't watch this guy play and not like what you see. Sure, so many players in the NBA are more gifted athletes...bu this guy REALLY loves the game and loves to win. Those are vastly underrated qualities and I love it when Rick pulls Sarunas out when he starts getting hot. You almost expect it now.

Mourning
01-17-2006, 04:29 PM
I feel so bad for Sarunas, he would clearly be playing soooo much better with Cleveland. They have Mike Brown who is a great players coach, he has a close friend there, and he would probably be their best point guard. Lebron could get the ball up the floor for Runi, so that wouldn't be an issue.

I totally agree with what the Lithuanian guy said. Sarunas looked sooo good when he first came here because he was proving himself. Now, the system/chemisty issues are really bogging him down...you can just see it.

I just absolutely love watching this guy play, you can't watch this guy play and not like what you see. Sure, so many players in the NBA are more gifted athletes...bu this guy REALLY loves the game and loves to win. Those are vastly underrated qualities and I love it when Rick pulls Sarunas out when he starts getting hot. You almost expect it now.

I aggreed with your post, Jon, until I read THIS:


and I love it when Rick pulls Sarunas out when he starts getting hot.

... typo? :)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Kegboy
01-17-2006, 05:06 PM
- Ragnar, Able and Jermaniac hate him too :cry:

Hey, what am I, chopped liver?

:devil:

Hicks
01-17-2006, 05:08 PM
Hey, what am I, chopped liver?

:devil:

You were demoted to 4th best Kegboy weeks ago. You wait your turn! *waves stick*

Kegboy
01-17-2006, 05:12 PM
You were demoted to 4th best Kegboy weeks ago. You wait your turn! *waves stick*

:cry:

:kickcan:

Kestas
01-17-2006, 06:38 PM
1: Do we know Saras can stay healthy? no


bu who can stay healthy? is there such a man at all in the whole wide world?



2: Can he handle the ball like the above mentioned? no
3: Can he handle the ball like Tins? no


:huh:
Saras has outplayed Parker every time they faced each other in the international competition. Parker won two NBA titles, while Saras won Olympic bronze, Eurobasket and three Euroleagues. he has been sellected as the second best non-USA basketball player in the world for two years in a row (this year and last year). his ball handling skills are second to none.
sure, if you believe he's worse than some practically unknown outside the NBA Tinsley or Parker, that opinion will probably remain the same, but in any case you should know that majority of International fans would not support your position.

if Saras doesn't become a star in NBA, that will mean that the divide between the styles played in Europe and NBA has become too wide. it will not be because of him being worse than Parker or Tinsley (pleaaaaase..). however, I the divide is not that big (though it's clearly noticable in terms of style and individualism). I would bet for Saras starting next season, but that's just a subjective opinion. time will tel who was right.

Kestas
01-17-2006, 06:57 PM
Are you saying that a guy who can't dribble the ball over the time line with pressure or play defense is better than Jamaal.

are you saying Saras can't get the ball to his side under pressure?
then answer me how could a PG, who can't perform such an important thing for PG, be one of the most recognized basketball players in the world? as a PG Saras is clearly the most recognized player besides the Americans.
go rent some tapes of his play against Team USA in Sydney or Athens. or see how he performed in the final fours of Euroleague.

and one more thing. believe me, if Tinsley with his style and attitude would go to a European powerhouse like Panathinaikos, that are playing deffensive basketball with a very good ball rotation, only God knows how he would do (not that brilliant, if you ask me). Saras, on the other hand, went to the team, that plays something he is not used to, which has a different phylosphy to his former teams and uses much less ball rotation on offense, while aslo lacking heart sometimes. besides, this new team is even trying to reinvent his style testing him in the position he las played long ago. yet he's producing in the third month with this system.
I believe he should stay with the Pacers, starting or coming of the bench, no matter.. for now at least.

Jerry_McGuire
01-18-2006, 06:22 AM
are you saying Saras can't get the ball to his side under pressure?
then answer me how could a PG, who can't perform such an important thing for PG, be one of the most recognized basketball players in the world? as a PG Saras is clearly the most recognized player besides the Americans.
go rent some tapes of his play against Team USA in Sydney or Athens. or see how he performed in the final fours of Euroleague.

and one more thing. believe me, if Tinsley with his style and attitude would go to a European powerhouse like Panathinaikos, that are playing deffensive basketball with a very good ball rotation, only God knows how he would do (not that brilliant, if you ask me). Saras, on the other hand, went to the team, that plays something he is not used to, which has a different phylosphy to his former teams and uses much less ball rotation on offense, while aslo lacking heart sometimes. besides, this new team is even trying to reinvent his style testing him in the position he las played long ago. yet he's producing in the third month with this system.
I believe he should stay with the Pacers, starting or coming of the bench, no matter.. for now at least.

Very good point!
However I start to doubt if I want see Saras in Pacers team any more. I
am a fan of Pacers - but as long as Rick Carlise will coach this team Saras
will have a slump. And the team will have a slump... That is my personal
opinion.

Calgary Jazz
01-18-2006, 09:14 AM
I feel so bad for Sarunas, he would clearly be playing soooo much better with Cleveland. They have Mike Brown who is a great players coach, he has a close friend there, and he would probably be their best point guard. Lebron could get the ball up the floor for Runi, so that wouldn't be an issue.
.

No way Saras would be happy in Cleveland. They play even worse type of game than Indiana. The only place were he would be happy is Utah. He made big mistake thinking only about championship, he would be playing European type of basketball there. Look, yesterday game against Raptors, AK47 - 11 assists, Okur 7. Thats sharing the ball thing, it is all what Saras preaches for in Indiana;).

NPFII
01-18-2006, 09:58 AM
Sarunas has looked his best when we play up-tempo. Since Rick will never do that on purpose, Saras will never look better as long as both are here IMO.

Same was true with Steve Nash, Jason Kidd.

Maybe trading him isn't such a bad idea...

Artest+Saras+Foster for Pierce anyone?

Los Angeles
01-18-2006, 11:13 AM
Same was true with Steve Nash, Jason Kidd.

Maybe trading him isn't such a bad idea...

Artest+Saras+Foster for Pierce anyone?
Stop it.

:banghead:

Kestas
01-18-2006, 11:21 AM
Very good point!
However I start to doubt if I want see Saras in Pacers team any more. I
am a fan of Pacers - but as long as Rick Carlise will coach this team Saras
will have a slump. And the team will have a slump... That is my personal
opinion.

that may be so, but what better options are there in NBA?
besides, I thik Saras should adjust to Carlisle's style. however, in case of some serious failures by the team (which is not the case yet), the coach should go, not Saras ;)

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 11:55 AM
that may be so, but what better options are there in NBA?
besides, I thik Saras should adjust to Carlisle's style. however, in case of some serious failures by the team (which is not the case yet), the coach should go, not Saras ;)

I think I should agree with Jerry. However it appears that its not as easy to change teams as it is in Europe... And since Saras is not Artest we will wait at least till the end of the season. However, I would prefer to see him in Cleveland right now.

What bugs me the most, is that coach prefers AJ over Saras!!! You can agree that Tinsley is a good player and that he is on Saras level, though they are completely different so its hard to compare them. But AJ?!?! Common, half of the board here was laughing at AJ a month ago. And still coach prefers him.

I think its mostly due to Saras's poor dribbling and may be he is still poor defender. The one thing Rick dont understand is that when you drive limousine its hard to maneuver and park. You have to MAXIMIZE HIS POTENTIAL. Help him with defence. Let him defend weakest player. Let SG or SF to bring the ball. GIVE THE BALL TO SARAS IN OFFENCE!!! LET HIM PLAY 38 MINUTES. GIVE HIM SPACE FOR ERRORS. If you do that you'll see totally different game.

You have to remember that basketball game is not about dunking or good dribling. Celtics with Bird didn't dribble at all on fast breaks. Pass is much faster then dribling. Basketball (offence) is about two simple things:
1. Shooting the ball, which Saras does best on Pacers team.
2. Creating shot opportunities, Saras excels in creating opportunities for others. He is best on Pacers team at this point, you saw his passes.
Now what the dribbling has to do with it? Don't you have players that can do it instead of him? But do you have players that can shoot like him? Pass like him? Drive the team like him? plus emotion leadership etc....

You should know that all his problems are not because he plays in NBA. I wrote on this board like 2 moths ago before games started, that somebody else brought the ball and helped him to defend in Maccabi. He was not athletic, poor defence and dribbling point guard in Europe. And still the BEST. As Bird did at his time.

So right now I think you are having Larry Bird in point guard version on this team and not using him (See NPFII avatar).

SHAME ON PACERS. SHAME ON RICK CARLISLE.....

ChicagoJ
01-18-2006, 12:53 PM
I'd be fairly neutral on Sara if he were a normal rookie.

When the team needed him to step up and play SG, he failed.

He's having the usual rookie adjustments at a difficult position.

I prefer AJ at backup SG, because he's a lousy PG, but its hard to argue with Rick's decision to stick with the guy with a longer track record in the NBA.

Saras occasionally makes plays, and makes shots, like any rookie. He's maddeningly inconsistent, like any rookie not named Granger.

Like I said, I could be neutral on him. I didn't care for his early season displays of "bossy-ness" on the court. Especially since he kept forgetting about Kyle Korver in the corner, as an easy example. But I could be neutral.

But all this hype...

I say we get rid of all our PGs. Tinsley because he's fragile. AJ because he sucks as a PG and Fred is finally proving to be a better backup SG than AJ. Saras can go away because I'm sick of reading about how the Pacers/ Rick should change just to make him look better.

Good riddance to all of them, in my opinion.

:boomer:

Kestas
01-18-2006, 12:57 PM
What bugs me the most, is that coach prefers AJ over Saras!!!


I don't think that's the case, but that's just imho. don't forget Saras is still a rookie and he's still a European in NBA.


LET HIM PLAY 38 MINUTES.


well, he plays enough imho, you can't give all that so soon, coz that would put his reputation in danger. and the use for the team would be questionable, it would be too risky. obviously, I believe he can produce right away, but the general NBA public in USA clearly would not agree with my view. that automatically puts him under the magnifying glass. in such a situation starting position would mean every bleak performance of his would be magnified by the public. he must reach the status when not only the coach and teammates trust him fully, but the public does that as well. interestingly enough, his latest strange absences from the game in the last quarters (when he gets replaced by somebody "more trustworthy") are good for him in that respect rather than vice versa. his reputation is rising. imho.

besides, not many rookies get so many minutes so soon. look at Macijauskas. the guy is phenomenal, but hardly plays at all.

regarding his move to Cleveland.. I don't like it coz I still am under the impression that Indiana has the better chance to win the title sometime soon. it's a pitty they are not that good right now, but I still believe they are capable of drastic improvement.

Chauncey
01-18-2006, 01:09 PM
I'd be fairly neutral on Sara if he were a normal rookie.

When the team needed him to step up and play SG, he failed.

He's having the usual rookie adjustments at a difficult position.

I prefer AJ at backup SG, because he's a lousy PG, but its hard to argue with Rick's decision to stick with the guy with a longer track record in the NBA.

Saras occasionally makes plays, and makes shots, like any rookie. He's maddeningly inconsistent, like any rookie not named Granger.

Like I said, I could be neutral on him. I didn't care for his early season displays of "bossy-ness" on the court. Especially since he kept forgetting about Kyle Korver in the corner, as an easy example. But I could be neutral.

But all this hype...

I say we get rid of all our PGs. Tinsley because he's fragile. AJ because he sucks as a PG and Fred is finally proving to be a better backup SG than AJ. Saras can go away because I'm sick of reading about how the Pacers/ Rick should change just to make him look better.

Good riddance to all of them, in my opinion.

:boomer:


I need a humongous "ditto" smiley for times like these. Couldn't have said it better.

hoopsforlife
01-18-2006, 02:02 PM
I think I should agree with Jerry. However it appears that its not as easy to change teams as it is in Europe... And since Saras is not Artest we will wait at least till the end of the season. However, I would prefer to see him in Cleveland right now.

What bugs me the most, is that coach prefers AJ over Saras!!! You can agree that Tinsley is a good player and that he is on Saras level, though they are completely different so its hard to compare them. But AJ?!?! Common, half of the board here was laughing at AJ a month ago. And still coach prefers him.

I think its mostly due to Saras's poor dribbling and may be he is still poor defender. The one thing Rick dont understand is that when you drive limousine its hard to maneuver and park. You have to MAXIMIZE HIS POTENTIAL. Help him with defence. Let him defend weakest player. Let SG or SF to bring the ball. GIVE THE BALL TO SARAS IN OFFENCE!!! LET HIM PLAY 38 MINUTES. GIVE HIM SPACE FOR ERRORS. If you do that you'll see totally different game.

You have to remember that basketball game is not about dunking or good dribling. Celtics with Bird didn't dribble at all on fast breaks. Pass is much faster then dribling. Basketball (offence) is about two simple things:
1. Shooting the ball, which Saras does best on Pacers team.
2. Creating shot opportunities, Saras excels in creating opportunities for others. He is best on Pacers team at this point, you saw his passes.
Now what the dribbling has to do with it? Don't you have players that can do it instead of him? But do you have players that can shoot like him? Pass like him? Drive the team like him? plus emotion leadership etc....

You should know that all his problems are not because he plays in NBA. I wrote on this board like 2 moths ago before games started, that somebody else brought the ball and helped him to defend in Maccabi. He was not athletic, poor defence and dribbling point guard in Europe. And still the BEST. As Bird did at his time.

So right now I think you are having Larry Bird in point guard version on this team and not using him (See NPFII avatar).

SHAME ON PACERS. SHAME ON RICK CARLISLE.....

I concur....

jericho
01-18-2006, 03:59 PM
I say we get rid of all our PGs. Tinsley because he's fragile. AJ because he sucks as a PG and Fred is finally proving to be a better backup SG than AJ. Saras can go away because I'm sick of reading about how the Pacers/ Rick should change just to make him look better.

Good riddance to all of them, in my opinion.



Yeah, you better do...., and keep dreaming about championship team
:crazy: :champions

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:06 PM
I concur....
you what?

PacerMan
01-18-2006, 04:17 PM
I think I should agree with Jerry. However it appears that its not as easy to change teams as it is in Europe... And since Saras is not Artest we will wait at least till the end of the season. However, I would prefer to see him in Cleveland right now.

What bugs me the most, is that coach prefers AJ over Saras!!! You can agree that Tinsley is a good player and that he is on Saras level, though they are completely different so its hard to compare them. But AJ?!?! Common, half of the board here was laughing at AJ a month ago. And still coach prefers him.

I think its mostly due to Saras's poor dribbling and may be he is still poor defender. The one thing Rick dont understand is that when you drive limousine its hard to maneuver and park. You have to MAXIMIZE HIS POTENTIAL. Help him with defence. Let him defend weakest player. Let SG or SF to bring the ball. GIVE THE BALL TO SARAS IN OFFENCE!!! LET HIM PLAY 38 MINUTES. GIVE HIM SPACE FOR ERRORS. If you do that you'll see totally different game.

You have to remember that basketball game is not about dunking or good dribling. Celtics with Bird didn't dribble at all on fast breaks. Pass is much faster then dribling. Basketball (offence) is about two simple things:
1. Shooting the ball, which Saras does best on Pacers team.
2. Creating shot opportunities, Saras excels in creating opportunities for others. He is best on Pacers team at this point, you saw his passes.
Now what the dribbling has to do with it? Don't you have players that can do it instead of him? But do you have players that can shoot like him? Pass like him? Drive the team like him? plus emotion leadership etc....

You should know that all his problems are not because he plays in NBA. I wrote on this board like 2 moths ago before games started, that somebody else brought the ball and helped him to defend in Maccabi. He was not athletic, poor defence and dribbling point guard in Europe. And still the BEST. As Bird did at his time.

So right now I think you are having Larry Bird in point guard version on this team and not using him (See NPFII avatar).

SHAME ON PACERS. SHAME ON RICK CARLISLE.....

He can't do the same things because the talent is so much better. He's not quick enough to guard people in this league.
That's not to say the GAME itself is better, the one on one and other BS that 'rules' the NBA sickens me and anyone that grew up on TEAM basketball.
But the fact remains that these are the BEST athletes in the world. ANd to expect him to do the same things against them is silly.
He's an AVERAGE player in this league. He'll never be a star.
Shame on yourself.

Kstat
01-18-2006, 04:21 PM
bu who can stay healthy? is there such a man at all in the whole wide world?



:huh:
Saras has outplayed Parker every time they faced each other in the international competition. Parker won two NBA titles, while Saras won Olympic bronze, Eurobasket and three Euroleagues. he has been sellected as the second best non-USA basketball player in the world for two years in a row (this year and last year). his ball handling skills are second to none.
sure, if you believe he's worse than some practically unknown outside the NBA Tinsley or Parker, that opinion will probably remain the same, but in any case you should know that majority of International fans would not support your position.

if Saras doesn't become a star in NBA, that will mean that the divide between the styles played in Europe and NBA has become too wide. it will not be because of him being worse than Parker or Tinsley (pleaaaaase..). however, I the divide is not that big (though it's clearly noticable in terms of style and individualism). I would bet for Saras starting next season, but that's just a subjective opinion. time will tel who was right.

:laugh:

First of all, Parker was HOW old when he played against sarunas? 16? 17? Sarunaus was what, 24? 25?

To say Sarunas is better than Tony Parker is an absoluke joke. Sorry, but it is. Parker is an all-star. Sarunas wouldnt even start on msot NBA teams.

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:30 PM
He can't do the same things because the talent is so much better. He's not quick enough to guard people in this league.
That's not to say the GAME itself is better, the one on one and other BS that 'rules' the NBA sickens me and anyone that grew up on TEAM basketball.
But the fact remains that these are the BEST athletes in the world. ANd to expect him to do the same things against them is silly.
He's an AVERAGE player in this league. He'll never be a star.
Shame on yourself.

Common man, I saw Pacers game this season.
Saras brings spark, energy attitude that NOBODY on this team has. Not to talk about shooting and passing abilities.
The facts can remain whatsoever facts. People like you said Larry Bird is not athletic enough quick enough etc. They said he will never be a star. But he is a LEGEND. And so ~ will Saras. Now or later, when he gets a chance. Just ask Larry about it. I'm sure that he as a coach could have maximize Saras game.

ChicagoJ
01-18-2006, 04:30 PM
you what?

concur



con·cur http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dconcur) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn-kûrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif)
intr.v. con·curred, con·cur·ring, con·curs

To be of the same opinion; agree: <CITE>concurred on the issue of preventing crime.</CITE> See Synonyms at assent (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=assent).
To act together; cooperate.
To occur at the same time; coincide: <CITE>icy sleet that concurred with a forceful wind.</CITE>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=concur

He agrees.

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:41 PM
:laugh:

First of all, Parker was HOW old when he played against sarunas? 16? 17? Sarunaus was what, 24? 25?

To say Sarunas is better than Tony Parker is an absoluke joke. Sorry, but it is. Parker is an all-star. Sarunas wouldnt even start on msot NBA teams.
Now please dont teach europeans about european players.
Tony Parker is playing for France NT and meeting Saras annualy in championships, friendly games, I guess at least once per year. So with all the respect to Tony, Saras outplayed him many many times and he was not 16,17.
By the way Parker totally sucked during Euro championship this summer. He averaged much less then 10 ppg with extremely low percentage. Thats what happens to shootingless slashers that meet zone defence.
Just to get the perspective of our little comparison of Saras with Tony "allstar" Parker, look at Parker stat line in his rookie year:

<TABLE class=gSGTableStatsGrid cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=677 border=0><TBODY><TR class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap width=35>YEAR</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap width=40>TEAM</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>G</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>GS</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>MPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>FG%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>3P%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>FT%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=45>OFF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=45>DEF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=45>RPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>APG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>SPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>BPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>TO</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>PF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>PPG</TD></TR><TR><!-- year --><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid> 01-02 </TD><!-- team --><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid>SAS </TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>77</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>72</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>29.4</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.419</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.323</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.675</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right width=45>.4</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right width=45>2.1</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right width=45>2.6</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>4.3</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>1.16</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.09</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>1.96</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>2.20</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>9.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Saras rookie year till now:

<TABLE class=gSGTableStatsGridOne cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=677 border=0><TBODY><TR class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap width=45>Team</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap width=10>G</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=14>GS</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>MPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=45>FGM-A</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>FG%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=49>3PM-A</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>3P%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=51>FTM-A</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>FT%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>OFF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>DEF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>TOT</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>APG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>SPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=26>BPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=26>TO</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=29>PF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=41>PPG</TD></TR><TR><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid> IND</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid> 36</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>13</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>23.9</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>97-229 <TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.424</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>53-130 <TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.408</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>83-93 <TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.892</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.3</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>2.2</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>2.5</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>3.2</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.83</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.11</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>1.83</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>1.50</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>9.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- end season -->

So wait and see

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:45 PM
concur


He agrees.

Thanks man,

The hype around Saras is justified.
He is special, don't you see that?

Kstat
01-18-2006, 04:46 PM
Saras has outplayed Parker every time they faced each other in the international competition.

Playing on the mighty powerhouse that is France, in addition to coming off a grueling NBA finals with little rest.



<TABLE class=gSGTableStatsGrid cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=677 border=0><TBODY><TR class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap width=35>YEAR</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap width=40>TEAM</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>G</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>GS</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>MPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>FG%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>3P%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>FT%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=45>OFF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=45>DEF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=45>RPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>APG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>SPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>BPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>TO</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>PF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGrid noWrap align=right width=35>PPG</TD></TR><TR><!-- year --><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid> 01-02 </TD><!-- team --><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid>SAS </TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>77</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>72</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>29.4</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.419</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.323</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.675</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right width=45>.4</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right width=45>2.1</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right width=45>2.6</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>4.3</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>1.16</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>.09</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>1.96</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>2.20</TD><TD class=gSGRowEvenStatsGrid align=right>9.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Saras rookie year till now:

<TABLE class=gSGTableStatsGridOne cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=677 border=0><TBODY><TR class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap width=45>Team</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap width=10>G</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=14>GS</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>MPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=45>FGM-A</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>FG%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=49>3PM-A</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>3P%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=51>FTM-A</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>FT%</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>OFF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>DEF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>TOT</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>APG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=31>SPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=26>BPG</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=26>TO</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=29>PF</TD><TD class=gSGSectionColumnHeadingsStatsGridOne noWrap align=right width=41>PPG</TD></TR><TR><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid> IND</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid> 36</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>13</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>23.9</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>97-229 <TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.424</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>53-130 <TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.408</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>83-93 <TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.892</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.3</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>2.2</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>2.5</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>3.2</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.83</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>.11</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>1.83</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>1.50</TD><TD class=gSGRowOddStatsGrid align=right>9.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- end season -->

So wait and see

Wait and see?

Parker was 19 as a rookie.

Sarunas is 29 as a rookie.

hoopsforlife
01-18-2006, 04:46 PM
you what?

I agree with you totally. :)

Kestas
01-18-2006, 04:50 PM
:laugh:

First of all, Parker was HOW old when he played against sarunas? 16? 17? Sarunaus was what, 24? 25?

Sarunas wouldnt even start on msot NBA teams.

well, your incompetence amuses me! :) (that's regarding the first remark)
compared to you, guys, average 10 year old in Lithuania knows more (edit: much more) about international basketball. no offense..

and mind you Saras was starting for your beloved championship contender just a month or so into his first season in NBA. that's regarding the second remark.

Kstat
01-18-2006, 04:53 PM
and mind you Saras was starting for your beloved championship contender just a month or so into his first season in NBA. that's regarding the second remark.

well, your incompetence amuses me! :)


compared to you, guys, average 10 year old in Lithuania knows more (edit: much more) about international basketball. no offense..

compared to you, the average 5-year old American knows more about NBA basketball, no offense.

edit:much more

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:54 PM
Wait and see?

Parker was 19 as a rookie.

Sarunas is 29 as a rookie.

Havent you heard that its heart and mind and not the age matters the most? (From you grandfather)
;)
29 is not too bad, especially for the point guard. He shows signs of quick adaptation. Most of people on this board write that his defence improved drastically. I saw his games this and last season. I think he lost 5-10 pounds and defending and running like he never did. He is learning and 29 is not old enough. He has another 5 years untill his body weakens.

Kstat
01-18-2006, 04:56 PM
Havent you heard that its heart and mind and not the age matters the most? (From you grandfather)
;)
29 is not too bad, especially for the point guard. He shows signs of quick adaptation. Most of people on this board write that his defence improved drastically. I saw his games this and last season. I think he lost 5-10 pounds and defending and running like he never did. He is learning and 29 is not old enough. He has another 5 years untill his body weakens.


The point is, you're comparing a 19-year old rookie to a 29-year old rookie. That's not even remotely fair.

Sarunas at 19 wouldnt have been in the NBA, period. He wouldnt even have gotten an invitation to traning camp until at least 25.

You want to say he's god's gift to basketball, fine. But don't go comparing him to all-stars.

Sarunas is a nice backup in the NBA. On a team with no stellar PGs, he might even be a full-time starter. TO expect anythign ebyond that from him is ridiculous. He is steady, but not dominant in any phase of the game.

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:56 PM
I agree with you totally. :)
:)

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 04:59 PM
well, your incompetence amuses me! :)



compared to you, the average 5-year old American knows more about NBA basketball, no offense.

edit:much more


Yeah, Kestas you should know that Kstat (nick similarities are never casual) is notorious for being PISTONS fan.

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 05:06 PM
The point is, you're comparing a 19-year old rookie to a 29-year old rookie. That's not even remotely fair.

Sarunas at 19 wouldnt have been in the NBA, period. He wouldnt even have gotten an invitation to traning camp until at least 25.

You want to say he's god's gift to basketball, fine. But don't go comparing him to all-stars.

Sarunas is a nice backup in the NBA. On a team with no stellar PGs, he might even be a full-time starter. TO expect anythign ebyond that from him is ridiculous. He is steady, but not dominant in any phase of the game.


Please, almost NO european AT ANY age NEVER excelled his first year in NBA. I know it can be ridiculos to you, but he is dominant in one phase - the winning one. And the thing is you don't expect it from him as he is not athletic, his dribbling sucks etc, even for Euro level. But in spite of those things he plays great! Well average for you in NBA at the moment.
His desire to win and determination are unbelievable. i'm wondered that there are no stories yet about player shooting 3's and FT's in Indianapolis after lights turn off.
The only analogy I know is Larry Bird.

FrenchConnection
01-18-2006, 05:17 PM
Everybody needs to just calm down. This has stopped being a discussion about a basketball player and has devolved into a nationalist slug-fest, never a good thing. First of all, Saras will start in Indiana by next year after Jack and Tins are gone and will become the team leader that he should be. Secondly, my saying that he is not ready now and does some stupid things now and then is not an insult to the entire nation of Lithuania. I love those little runners he hits with consistancy, but I hate it when he forgets the limitations of his teammates and attempts a pass that they cannot handle. Finally, if Saras is as good as I think that he is, he will make the necessary adjustments to his game to thrive in the NBA.

ChicagoJ
01-18-2006, 05:18 PM
Thanks man,

The hype around Saras is justified.
He is special, don't you see that?

No.

He looks like a rookie to me. And I'm certainly not going to use the special word until I've seen him in a couple of playoff series.

And I believe Tinsley is the better player, both overall and for the Pacers. But he's never healthy in the playoffs, and that's a huge problem.

Kestas
01-18-2006, 05:19 PM
Playing on the mighty powerhouse that is France, in addition to coming off a grueling NBA finals with little rest.



Wait and see?

Parker was 19 as a rookie.

Sarunas is 29 as a rookie.

these thing happen from time to time. not all good players go to NBA. some go too late. like Sabonis did when he was 30 or 31 and could barely run..
anyways, it is hard to say who's better, but if we look at the facts we can see who gets more recognition. take EUROSCAR awards, that are among the most prestigeous basketball awards in Europe (I'd say they are the best known ones). the award is given to the best players over the year according to the survey of basketball specialists and journalists from around the continent. the award is influenced by players performance in the international competition and in the club competitions.
this year award for the best European player went to Nowitzki (191 points), who was pehenomenal in Germany's success in Eurobasket and also made his mark (as usual) in NBA. second was Saras (97), third - Parker (57). all observers agree that Saras' result was hurt by his absence in Eurobasket, but he still finished second. last year Saras was second as well.
if we look at this years FIBA nominations for the best European player of the year, we will see that the most probable candidates are Parker, Saras, Kirilenko and Nowitzki:
http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_-M4,JpwfInwfLTnA8adZx2.html
there is an internet poll there, but it means nothing for the end result.
anyways, their basketball life took different shapes but it would ont be fair to put Parker above Saras just because he went to NBA at a young age. Parker had more succes in NBA, but Saras had more succes everywhere else a n d is now given a chance to do the same in NBA.

Kstat
01-18-2006, 05:19 PM
Please, almost NO european AT ANY age NEVER excelled his first year in NBA.

Ardvydas Sabonis
AK47
Andrw Bogut
Toni Kucoc
Gordon Giricek
Nenad Krstic


in spite of those things he plays great! Well average for you in NBA at the moment.

Right. He's average. I never said he was bad, just not a star.


His desire to win and determination are unbelievable. i'm wondered that there are no stories yet about player shooting 3's and FT's in Indianapolis after lights turn off.
The only analogy I know is Larry Bird.

Or Reggie Miller.

Or Stever Kerr.

Or Steve Alford.....

Hicks
01-18-2006, 05:19 PM
As much as they annoy you guys, I really wish there was less snobish behavior from some of our NBA fans towards the Euro fans. I know it goes both ways, but someone needs to be the first to be the diplomat here. Every time I read these "debates" I usually sense the Euro side isn't trying so hard to be rude (even when they can be). You guys could be teaching each other what you know instead of every time a Euro fan says something that bugs you, starting a pissing contest.

Kestas
01-18-2006, 05:21 PM
well, your incompetence amuses me! :)



compared to you, the average 5-year old American knows more about NBA basketball, no offense.

edit:much more

I knew you could copy and paste, the effort wasn't neccessary!

sorry for indirectly calling you the Pacers fan, it must have sucked ;)

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 05:21 PM
Everybody needs to just calm down. This has stopped being a discussion about a basketball player and has devolved into a nationalist slug-fest, never a good thing. First of all, Saras will start in Indiana by next year after Jack and Tins are gone and will become the team leader that he should be. Secondly, my saying that he is not ready now and does some stupid things now and then is not an insult to the entire nation of Lithuania. I love those little runners he hits with consistancy, but I hate it when he forgets the limitations of his teammates and attempts a pass that they cannot handle. Finally, if Saras is as good as I think that he is, he will make the necessary adjustments to his game to thrive in the NBA.

Agree agree agree.

And no nationalism ...

FrenchConnection
01-18-2006, 05:21 PM
As much as they annoy you guys, I really wish there was less snobish behavior from some of our NBA fans towards the Euro fans. I know it goes both ways, but someone needs to be the first to be the diplomat here. Every time I read these "debates" I usually sense the Euro side isn't trying so hard to be rude (even when they can be). You guys could be teaching each other what you know instead of every time a Euro fan says something that bugs you, starting a pissing contest.

Yes, I agree!!!!!!

ChicagoJ
01-18-2006, 05:22 PM
His desire to win and determination are unbelievable. i'm wondered that there are no stories yet about player shooting 3's and FT's in Indianapolis after lights turn off.
The only analogy I know is Larry Bird.

:disturbed

Reggie was special. And there probably haven't been any stories about players shooting 3's and FTs after the lights were turned off since about last May.

If Saras turns out to be that type of player in the NBA, first he's going to have to pay his dues and earn the right to be on the court when the pressure is on. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. Its far too early to make that call about a player that hasn't even played in an NBA playoff game.

SoupIsGood
01-18-2006, 05:23 PM
I thought Saras had starter potential, but I now agree with K's assesment. He's a great backup, a starter on bad teams.

Right now, though, we aren't exactly a great team, so I wouldn't mind handing the PG spot to Saras, maybe he's got something he hasn't shown us.

Lithfan
01-18-2006, 05:27 PM
Ardvydas Sabonis
AK47
Andrw Bogut
Toni Kucoc
Gordon Giricek
Nenad Krstic



Right. He's average. I never said he was bad, just not a star.



Or Reggie Miller.

Or Stever Kerr.

Or Steve Alford.....


1. None of Euro players you've mentioned was better then average in firs year, check the stats.
2. What I meant about analogy is being great player despite all physical limitations i.e. white man cant jump. Only player I know that was bad athlete but great player is Larry. Reggie is quick and springy. He is an athlete.

Kstat
01-18-2006, 05:28 PM
2. What I meant about analogy is being great player despite all physical limitations i.e. white man cant jump.

:laugh:

Being white is a "physical limitation?"


. Only player I know that was bad athlete nut great player is Larry.

Yeah, horrible athlete, with that quick first step, amazing hand-eye coordination, or terriffic balance....


Reggie is quick and springy. He is an athlete.

:lmao:

Have you ever SEEN Reggie play before, or are you just assuming he's athletic because he's black?

Damn, if only white slugs like Brent Barry, Steve Nash, AK47 and Manu Ginoboli were "athletes" like Reggie Miller, they might be all of famers....

Hicks
01-18-2006, 05:32 PM
At least Kstat took my request seriously, and with 100% less - wait, I mean more! - sarcasm and inflamatory statements! I salute you! :usa:

Kstat
01-18-2006, 05:33 PM
At least Kstat took my request seriously, and with 100% less - wait, I mean more! - sarcasm and inflamatory statements! I salute you! :usa:


I was going to lay off, Hicks. But you know I can't stay away from an argument like "saras succeeds even though he is white" .... :laugh:

Kestas
01-18-2006, 05:41 PM
The only analogy I know is Larry Bird.

imho you're overdoing it a little with those constant comparisons between Saras and Bird ;)

Kestas
01-18-2006, 05:46 PM
despite all physical limitations i.e. white man cant jump.

and imho you're overdoing it a little falling for those old-fashioned stereotypes as well ;)
no offense, but what are the differences between the jumping ability of the current black and white pros? every basketball player can dunk easily these days. and look at players like our own Salenga or Javtokas.. if they can't jump, the who can?

let's nots stray too far..

Jermaniac
01-18-2006, 06:00 PM
Trade Saras Now topic.
Other teams would be much happier to have him, and Saras would
be playing much better with any other team.

At the moment - Saras is not showing even 30% of what he's capable.
And with atmosphere, attitude and coaching in the team like that - I'm
afraid he'll never do...

- Tinsley hates him
- Jackson hates him even more
- Carlise hates him
- Ragnar, Able and Jermaniac hate him too :cry:


The guy does everything he can for his team (with excellent statistics,
inspiration and quality by the way...) - however he's tossed up by
coaching and agonized chemistry construction in every way it's possible:

- has to bare unexcusable experiments - like to play in SG, when he's a
pure PG
- is benched everytime he starts to play and shoot "too good"
- or is benched after first couple mistakes, despite that he had brought a spark
- doesn't get passes from his teammates almost at all
- almost every time has to give himself away to cheer up other players,
who sometimes remind me of sleeping beauties, who overdosed cofeine
free coffee...
- has to to play in awful team atmosphere and relationship conditions,
where key players pout and don't respond to efforts to build up frienly or
at least healthy relationship.


The whole set of conditions make Saras perform way below his own
average level. My suggestion - sell Saras and stay with Tinsley and Aj like
before. Saras would have a chance to lead any other team to champions
title, and everyone stays satisfied (except Bird :eyebrow: ).
I dont hate Saras. I'm just a big Tinsley fan and dont like when people hate on him.

DeS
01-18-2006, 06:24 PM
I dont hate Saras. I'm just a big Tinsley fan and dont like when people hate on him.
Yes, Jermaniac love Saras! :) At least he said so ;)

P.S.: What's wrong with You guys? Why almost every discussion realtive to Saras must grow into some kind of controversy degrading/praising someone/something? This is really getting annoying to read what he can or can't be. Let's just see what happens (in the time we know - he can be in a shooting slump, he can be brilliant, but please let not start this over and over again).

Anthem
01-19-2006, 12:03 AM
Hicks, you know I'm usually more than willing to believe Kstat started a fight.

In this case, though, he's definitely not the initiator. European fans without an NBA clue get to trash Carlisle for not starting God's gift to basketball? And that's not even getting into the nationalistic (or "continentalistic") crap.

Hey, I'll admit I wanted Saras starting over AJ. But not because he's earned it... it's because I think he has the potential to be a better player eventually.

Lithfan
01-19-2006, 01:18 AM
I was going to lay off, Hicks. But you know I can't stay away from an argument like "saras succeeds even though he is white" .... :laugh:
You kind a exagerating playing with one silly argument i made in the middle of last night. So lets forget about colors.

Athletic ability is what we are talking about. Now Bird wasnt quick at least his legs. He also had bad dribbling. Reggie was quick I remember he ran like a devil without the ball and he had a very high jump-shot so he could created for himself. Saras doesn't have that.

So please don't corrupt my argument. Saras is not succeeding even though he white but even not being athlete.

Peck
01-19-2006, 01:44 AM
You kind a exagerating playing with one silly argument i made in the middle of last night. So lets forget about colors.

Athletic ability is what we are talking about. Now Bird wasnt quick at least his legs. He also had bad dribbling. Reggie was quick I remember he ran like a devil without the ball and he had a very high jump-shot so he could created for himself. Saras doesn't have that.

So please don't corrupt my argument. Saras is not succeeding even though he white but even not being athlete.


I've tried my best to avoid any of the Saras international debates because the last time I did I failed miserably.

But in this case I think you are falling for a myth or an old trap that a lot of... well shall we say less than enlightened Hoosiers used to fall for.

That is the myth that Larry Bird was a poor athlete.

First off to say that Larry Bird was slow is just wrong. Compared to Michael Cooper or Domonique Wilkins Bird was slow but each of them were 6'6" & 6'7" tall.

Larry was 6'9" tall and compared to some of the other players of the day at that height he was a freaking gazelle.

Clifford Ray, Dan Issel & Lonnie Shelton just to name a few.

It's kind of like the Brad Miller theory in a way. I would always laugh when someone would complain that Brad was a slow player but then laugh that they would compare him to players like Jeff Foster, Jon Bender, etc.

But comparing apples to apples Brad could run circles around other big slow lumbering centers like Shaq, Even Eschmeier, Greg Ostertagg, etc.

Then did I read this right, did you just say Larry Bird was a bad dribbler???? Ok, maybe compared to Pete Maravich but again comparing Larry to other 6'9" players of the day Larry was virtually a maestro with the ball. Hell, I'm not sure Larry wasn't just a Wizard with the ball no matter what height he was.

I hated Bird the player, but I never once questioned his abililty to dribble. Are you sure we're talking about the same player?

As to Reggie being quick.... Well.... I don't know how to respond.

Reggie was perpetual motion. Reggie had better cardiovasular conditioning than anyone else on the floor but Reggie was never, even as a young player, considered quick.

I am making no comments about Saras one way or the other in this post. I just want to say that it would be wrong to fall into the trap of saying that Bird was unathletic.

Lithfan
01-19-2006, 02:12 AM
I've tried my best to avoid any of the Saras international debates because the last time I did I failed miserably.

But in this case I think you are falling for a myth or an old trap that a lot of... well shall we say less than enlightened Hoosiers used to fall for.

That is the myth that Larry Bird was a poor athlete.

First off to say that Larry Bird was slow is just wrong. Compared to Michael Cooper or Domonique Wilkins Bird was slow but each of them were 6'6" & 6'7" tall.

Larry was 6'9" tall and compared to some of the other players of the day at that height he was a freaking gazelle.

Clifford Ray, Dan Issel & Lonnie Shelton just to name a few.

It's kind of like the Brad Miller theory in a way. I would always laugh when someone would complain that Brad was a slow player but then laugh that they would compare him to players like Jeff Foster, Jon Bender, etc.

But comparing apples to apples Brad could run circles around other big slow lumbering centers like Shaq, Even Eschmeier, Greg Ostertagg, etc.

Then did I read this right, did you just say Larry Bird was a bad dribbler???? Ok, maybe compared to Pete Maravich but again comparing Larry to other 6'9" players of the day Larry was virtually a maestro with the ball. Hell, I'm not sure Larry wasn't just a Wizard with the ball no matter what height he was.

I hated Bird the player, but I never once questioned his abililty to dribble. Are you sure we're talking about the same player?

As to Reggie being quick.... Well.... I don't know how to respond.

Reggie was perpetual motion. Reggie had better cardiovasular conditioning than anyone else on the floor but Reggie was never, even as a young player, considered quick.

I am making no comments about Saras one way or the other in this post. I just want to say that it would be wrong to fall into the trap of saying that Bird was unathletic.

May be you are right, you should know better.
He looked clumsy I don't know. All games I saw with Bird, he looked very different from other players. Slow, clumsy unusuall movement I don't know. But then again, he was 6'9''.
This is what he said about himself in few interviews I've seen. He said that he succeded in spite of physical deficiencies.
Reggie would have beat Saras one on one?

Kstat
01-19-2006, 02:24 AM
Other than Magic Johnson I don't know of any other 6'9" players that could handle the ball like Larry Bird.

Peck
01-19-2006, 03:41 AM
May be you are right, you should know better.
He looked clumsy I don't know. All games I saw with Bird, he looked very different from other players. Slow, clumsy unusuall movement I don't know. But then again, he was 6'9''.
This is what he said about himself in few interviews I've seen. He said that he succeded in spite of physical deficiencies.
Reggie would have beat Saras one on one?

Larry Bird enjoyed the fact that people thought he was unathletic. It helped his mystique grow by leaps & bounds.

But Larry was one of the very first players of his size to transition to small forward.

Remember back in his day 6'9" guys were usually either power forwards or centers, very few ever were athletic enough to play the 3.

If you go back & look at films of Larry don't compare him to other superstars at the wing positions of the day. Compare him to the 4's & 5's that were there at the time & you will realize that he was very athletic.

Again though when compared to Wilkins, Jordan or Dr. J, Larry will appear to be very unathletic & compared to them he was.

I'll give you another player to compare him to, Magic Johnson.

They were about 1" in height differance but I don't think Magic was any more athletic than Larry.

They were about the same speed, Magic could dribble better but here is the one that no one ever considers. IMO Bird could jump higher than Magic. I've seen Larry swoop in from the wings & give up a tomahawk slam when he was very young in the league. Magic on his best years could dunk, but barely.

Jason Kidd uses a similar strategy as Bird btw. He wants people to consider him slow because then they don't expect him to blow by them.

As to Saras & Reggie one on one?

I have no idea. Neither was a great defender although both maximized their potential by playing smart defense.

I would think that they would have to hit every shot they threw up because neither of them would be able to rebound any miss.

I saw plenty of Reggie as a young man so I know what he could do, but I have only seen Saras this season so to say what he could do in his prime I can't.

I will say this.

Reggie at 29 vs. Saras at 29 I would think Reggie would win. But I have not had the privilege of seeing what Saras can do when he is in an open enviroment.

Anthem
01-19-2006, 12:50 PM
Reggie at 29 vs. Saras at 29 I would think Reggie would win. But I have not had the privilege of seeing what Saras can do when he is in an open enviroment.
I have no doubt Reggie would win.

Peck
01-19-2006, 01:06 PM
I have no doubt Reggie would win.

I was trying to be polite.;)

brichard
01-19-2006, 11:33 PM
One of the things that seemed like a bad break ended up helping Larry's game quite a bit. He broke his arm in high school and had to practice everything with his left hand. During that time he learned how to shoot, dribble, etc. very well. Larry could dribble the ball very well.

I still disagree that Larry was a great athlete. I don't think he was very fast and I don't think he could jump that high, but clearly he could dunk the ball. His greatest assetts were his shot, size, court vision, and basketball smarts. You can add in to the fact that he was shall we say... confident. :cool: So even though he was not going to set any track records, the man was blessed with some physical talents to play this game.

Larry was once quoted as saying "I've got making up for a lack of speed down to a science," and I think he was right. So much of basketball is positioning. He knew where to be at the right time and that is half the battle on offense and defense.

Anthem
01-19-2006, 11:52 PM
Larry was once quoted as saying "I've got making up for a lack of speed down to a science," and I think he was right. So much of basketball is positioning. He knew where to be at the right time and that is half the battle on offense and defense.
Fair enough. But he knew that stuff coming into the league... Saras is struggling with it at 29.

Peck
01-20-2006, 12:25 AM
One of the things that seemed like a bad break ended up helping Larry's game quite a bit. He broke his arm in high school and had to practice everything with his left hand. During that time he learned how to shoot, dribble, etc. very well. Larry could dribble the ball very well.

I still disagree that Larry was a great athlete. I don't think he was very fast and I don't think he could jump that high, but clearly he could dunk the ball. His greatest assetts were his shot, size, court vision, and basketball smarts. You can add in to the fact that he was shall we say... confident. :cool: So even though he was not going to set any track records, the man was blessed with some physical talents to play this game.

Larry was once quoted as saying "I've got making up for a lack of speed down to a science," and I think he was right. So much of basketball is positioning. He knew where to be at the right time and that is half the battle on offense and defense.


But who are you comparing him to? Dr. J? Michael Jordan? Clyde Drexler?

Let's compare him athleticly to our own Waymond Tisdale.

Do you still think Larry was slower & not able to jump has high? Sorry, but it's just a myth that has grown as time has gone on.

When you are comparing him to other players of his time frame you have to compare him to other players who were 6'9" tall & I can tell you that Larry could hold his own in a foot race with most of them & he would certainly beat out a few of them.

I bet if we lined up Larry (prior to back injury's) against Waymond Tisdale in a foot race Larry would win.

Larry would have been able to jump as high as Mike Bantom although he probably wasn't a quick as Mike.

What about Len Elmore he was only 6'9" tall, do you think he was an athletic wonder? I saw Lenny play many of times & I can tell you that although he was a good decent center, he wasn't in Larry's realm as far as speed.

BTW, this should help put this into perspective as well. Lenny was 6'9" tall & weighed 10 pounds less than Larry yet he played Center.

Bird switched between the 3 & 4 depending on who was in with him, although it could be argued he was still the 3 even when Cornbread Maxwell as in the game.

Julius Sour
01-20-2006, 02:58 AM
Including his two tonight, Sarunas Jasikevicius has made 55 3-pt FG this season, just six off the Pacers' rookie single-season record held by Reggie Miller. SOURCE (www.nba.com/pacers/news/quotes.html)

Js

brichard
01-20-2006, 09:44 AM
But who are you comparing him to? Dr. J? Michael Jordan? Clyde Drexler?

Let's compare him athleticly to our own Waymond Tisdale.

Do you still think Larry was slower & not able to jump has high? Sorry, but it's just a myth that has grown as time has gone on.

When you are comparing him to other players of his time frame you have to compare him to other players who were 6'9" tall & I can tell you that Larry could hold his own in a foot race with most of them & he would certainly beat out a few of them.

I bet if we lined up Larry (prior to back injury's) against Waymond Tisdale in a foot race Larry would win.

Larry would have been able to jump as high as Mike Bantom although he probably wasn't a quick as Mike.

What about Len Elmore he was only 6'9" tall, do you think he was an athletic wonder? I saw Lenny play many of times & I can tell you that although he was a good decent center, he wasn't in Larry's realm as far as speed.

BTW, this should help put this into perspective as well. Lenny was 6'9" tall & weighed 10 pounds less than Larry yet he played Center.

Bird switched between the 3 & 4 depending on who was in with him, although it could be argued he was still the 3 even when Cornbread Maxwell as in the game.

I think we can agree on a couple of points.

1. There were players who were as bad if not worse than Bird playing during his tenure. For example, Magic Johnson is not a good athlete.

2. It is probably less of an issue to be a great athlete when you have his size and play his position.

However, you are using some pretty extreme examples. Let us look at the Dream Team, these were folks who were his peers right?

Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Pippen, and David Robinson are guys I would consider to be great atheltes. They are all very strong, fast, and generally set themselves apart with some physical presence. Or how about James Worthy? Are we comparing Larry Bird's first step to his? Maybe Larry isn't as bad athletically as he purports to be, but he isn't that good either.

The interesting thing I notice is that many of the players on the Dream Team are not people I would consider to be great athletes. But I think what hurts Saras, as much as anything else, is the position he is playing... guard. Guards are usually your fastest players on the floor, so a person usually has to be pretty quick. Saras is also pretty short for the NBA, so unlike Larry he can't make up for his lack of speed with some other physical attribute.

McKeyFan
01-20-2006, 12:15 PM
I once talked with a guy who played with Bird in college. He said he was as fast as anybody on the court with his first move. Slower after that, sure, but its the first move that matters most.

Peck
01-20-2006, 12:38 PM
I think we can agree on a couple of points.

1. There were players who were as bad if not worse than Bird playing during his tenure. For example, Magic Johnson is not a good athlete.

2. It is probably less of an issue to be a great athlete when you have his size and play his position.

However, you are using some pretty extreme examples. Let us look at the Dream Team, these were folks who were his peers right?

Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Pippen, and David Robinson are guys I would consider to be great atheltes. They are all very strong, fast, and generally set themselves apart with some physical presence. Or how about James Worthy? Are we comparing Larry Bird's first step to his? Maybe Larry isn't as bad athletically as he purports to be, but he isn't that good either.

The interesting thing I notice is that many of the players on the Dream Team are not people I would consider to be great athletes. But I think what hurts Saras, as much as anything else, is the position he is playing... guard. Guards are usually your fastest players on the floor, so a person usually has to be pretty quick. Saras is also pretty short for the NBA, so unlike Larry he can't make up for his lack of speed with some other physical attribute.


I'm using extreme examples????

You just listed down two of the greatest guards ever & one fantastic small forward.

Each of them being 6'6" or 6'7".

All that I ask is that he be compared to other players of his size. Now if you wanna say he wasn't as fast as Karl Malone I won't argue at all. I won't even argue about David Robinson, but Robinson was an extrememe case (along with Hakeem) in the fact that they were both quick for big men.

I'm not saying Larry Bird was as fast as lightning. I'm just saying that compared to other 6'9" players of his day he was as fast as 75% of them & was probably faster than 50% of them.

Yes James Worthy was faster as well.

I guess where we are disagreeing on is this.

You are saying he was not as athletic as the other elite players of his day, to which I will agree for the most part.

But I am saying comparing him to other players of his time frame of the same size he is as fast if not faster.

brichard
01-20-2006, 12:39 PM
I once talked with a guy who played with Bird in college. He said he was as fast as anybody on the court with his first move. Slower after that, sure, but its the first move that matters most.

Well, and I think what made him special is that he played to his strengths.

Take away his drive, he'll burn you with a 3.
Guard him tight in the post, he'll drop a fade away jumper on you.
Double Team him, and he'll throw a pass through your legs and around the goal post and hit Robert Parish in stride for a dunk.

As I remember him playing, he could hit a variety of shots that were almost unblockable, so the athletic thing just wasn't as important. He shot lots of fadeaways and he could hit some circus shots that he just practiced all the time.

I do know he kept in shape. He mentions in his coaching book how he wowed some of the Pacers after running 3 miles with them.

brichard
01-20-2006, 12:51 PM
You are saying he was not as athletic as the other elite players of his day, to which I will agree for the most part.

But I am saying comparing him to other players of his time frame of the same size he is as fast if not faster.

Well fair enough, but it is kind of hard to box Bird in to a specific category. He and Magic were both kind of freaks of nature. They were big enough to be forwards, but they had the court vision and dribbling skills to play guard. I realize that Magic played PG most of his career and Bird Forward, but they blurred the line at the position.

And you also have to look at the people they would cover Bird with. Bird once said that Michael Cooper played him best. Michael Cooper is definitely not a forward and I'm sure it was his athleticism that gave Bird fits. And this is a player that actually guarded Bird on several occassions, so I think it is fair to mention him in this discussion.

He certainly was as fast as guys like Greg Kite, Kurt Rambis, etc., but I don't think anybody would accuse that group of folks as being "athletic." I know part of it comes down to comparisons, but to me you either are or are not a good athlete regardless of the depth of athletes at your position. The NBA has went for years at a time where there are few athletic centers in the league.

I get your point though. There weren't lots of 6' 9" guys who had a tremendous advantage over him.

Arcadian
01-20-2006, 01:00 PM
I'd say that Larry wasn't great because he was athletic; however the was never a question that he wasn't athletic enough to be in the NBA.

I remember people talking about Alfred and Bailey saying how great they would be in the NBA and the line went "It doesn't matter if they aren't athletic enough look at Bird." Well it turns out that it did matter. And I think if Bird were as unathletic as people wanted to make him out to be it again would have mattered.

On to Saras I remember when Buck in fact did hate Tins; his arguement boiled down to the fact that Tins wasn't athletic enough to be a PG in the NBA. Well, Saras is less athletic than Tins and can't penetrate--what make us think that Saras not only will be better than Tins but be a championship caliber pg?

Anthem
01-20-2006, 03:20 PM
I'd say that Larry wasn't great because he was athletic; however the was never a question that he wasn't athletic enough to be in the NBA.
That's a good distinction. Larry's greatness wasn't due to his athletic abilities, but that's different from saying he's not athletic enough to handle his position.

brichard
01-20-2006, 03:54 PM
I'd say that Larry wasn't great because he was athletic; however the was never a question that he wasn't athletic enough to be in the NBA.

I remember people talking about Alfred and Bailey saying how great they would be in the NBA and the line went "It doesn't matter if they aren't athletic enough look at Bird." Well it turns out that it did matter. And I think if Bird were as unathletic as people wanted to make him out to be it again would have mattered.

On to Saras I remember when Buck in fact did hate Tins; his arguement boiled down to the fact that Tins wasn't athletic enough to be a PG in the NBA. Well, Saras is less athletic than Tins and can't penetrate--what make us think that Saras not only will be better than Tins but be a championship caliber pg?


Okay, but let us remember that Bailey and Alford weren't 6' 9" either. So Bailey, Alford, and Sarunas have no height and no speed. At least Bird was of good size.