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Peck
01-12-2006, 03:48 AM
I've been thinking about this for a few games now & this seems as good a time as any to make a statement & a confession all at the same time.

First off, no odd thoughts about the Bucks game because Uncle Buck did a superb job & I don't want to take away from his game recap on his thread.

Go here to read his thoughts on the game. http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18042

So, while I might cover some of the things about the game in this post I really am covering this from a larger more philisophical standpoint.

When I say "this is my team" I don't mean that in a selfish isolated way.

I mean this.

I am proud to call this version of the Indiana Pacers a team I can be proud of & route for.

Yes, at times Jackson drives me crazy with his attitude & J.O. has on occasion of late reverted to yapping at refs. again (but nowhere like he used to) & God knows that when J.T. get's back he will be as fragile as ever.

But none of that matters right now because this team has been playing with purpose, unity, passion & dare I say enthusiasm.

Maybe it's because at the end of the day I am somewhat prejudiced towards Pacer drafted players.

But for some reason seeing Austin Croshere, Fred Jones, Danny Granger & David Harrison, Jeff Foster & maybe someday Jamaal Tinsley become a cohesive fighting force fills me with a sense of pride that I couldn't get from players that we traded for.

Don't get me wrong I still like the players we bring in, but for some reason when we grow them at home (so to speak) it kind of feels better.

Here's the thing.

If we let Artest sit on the bench the rest of the year I wouldn't care. If we traded Ron for a high draft pick that would be fine by me as well.

The players we have on the floor right now, doing battle for our team, is good enough for me for the rest of this season.

Am I dumb enough to think we could win a title with these guys?

Well, yes I am.:-o

No, honestly there is something there. Maybe it's because I want there to be something there so I'm seeing what isn't really there. But I honestly beleive that right now we are starting to become something we haven't been all season long.

A TEAM.

Right now there is no one star who is shining brighter than the next guy.

Hell, Jermaine O'Neal was doing his best to be a point guard last night vs. the Bucks.

I honestly think he cares more about winning right now than anything else. If Rick told him to go out & not shoot but just rebound I think J.O. would do it.

That say's a lot for the man because this is a guy who could pad his stats every single game if he wanted to.

I have to give the majority of this credit to Rick Carlisle though.

He has changed the offense to match the players we have on the floor. He has gone away, for the most part, from the egg timer player rotations & he has the defense humming along nicely.

I like the fact that we are using our bench more & that no one player is playing 40+ min. a game like we used to do.

A front court of J.O. & Harrison with Cro & Foster backing them up is working quite nicely.

Get ready for the big suprise here.

I haven't even had a problem with the way he has used Foster for the past 4 games.

Start David & let him get some time on the floor. But Foster offers a very nice change of pace when he comes in & I love the fact that Jeff & Austin are playing together & not competing with each other as much for min. on the floor.

Ok, I guess I'm breaking my own statement here but I have to make one comment about that Bucks game.

Austin Croshere is something that you cannot teach or practice.

Austin Croshere is clutch.

You either are clutch or you are not clutch & beleive me Austin is clutch.

You need a rebound? Austin will get it in the 4th. Need a point? Let Cro drive & draw a foul because it's two.

He virtually slammed the door shut on the Bucks in the 4th with his play.

Ok, back to my real post.

I love Granger. Is it ok for me to say that I feel great that I can love one of our small forwards again for the first time since, well..... have I ever liked one of our small forwards??? I kind of liked Chris Mullin.

Artest was an idiot, Rose was a cancer & Satan was the personification of evil so I guess I'll have to go back to Chuck. But I wasn't really that thrilled with him either.

I guess I really have to go all the way back to Special K.

But not now.

I am a full fledged card carrying member of the Dan Wagon. There is nothing about him I don't like. He's already a good defender in this league at his position & I think by the end of this year he will be a great defender at his position. In two years I think he will be the premier defender at his position.

Yes even better than Ron.

I do NOT use the Untouchable lable lightly. In fact I never use it at all except for now.

Unless we were bringing in a superstar to replace him, Danny Granger better be untouchable.

Like Hicks said, God finally took pity on us for all of the years of Artest, Bender, etc.

Dan is the Man.

David Harrison is getting it. It takes centers longer to develop, but David has already cut way down on the fouls & he is starting to use his feet better on defense.

Ok, I'm starting to do a player by player breakdown which I don't want to do..

I just love this team right now.

Now the confession time.

I haven't liked much about the Indiana Pacers for the past 5 years. I've been a fan & I've continued to buy tickets & watch every game.

But to be honest, I didn't like many of the players & in fact in Ron's case I was ashamed he was on our team & hated the stupid attention he would bring to our club.

The very sight of Bender offended me for 6 years.

Jermaine O'Neal was an immature prima donna who was a false tough guy.

To me this never seemed much like a team, but a collection of talent that we hoped would gel & become a team. It didn't work.

Was Artest this much of a problem? Yes. Yes he was, but he wasn't the only problem.

I think it's great that the Bender thing has finally been taken out of play so that way nobody has to look over thier shoulder waiting on Jon to take their min. when he never earned them.

But Jermaine O'Neal has grown up over the years. He's gotten better & better each year. But this year I have full faith in him & am proud that he is our leader on the court & co/leader with Cro off of it.

I guess what I'm just saying is that the team we have on the floor right now I am proud of, win or lose, & I am ok if we don't add anything to it & in fact I don't really want anything taken away from it at the moment.

This summer we can do some form of trade to get maybe some quality for quantitie, but I would rather just end the season with the team we have & let them grow.

Every game that Granger & Harrison play is one less game in the future they will need to develop.

This really is a poorly written & rambling post. I know what I want to convey but I'm not sure if I'm making my point.

Oh well.

Go Pacers!!!!

Suaveness
01-12-2006, 03:54 AM
Can't really disagree with much there....


:gopacers:

My question for you is do you think we can keep up this offensive output and play defense at the same time for teh rest of the year?

Peck
01-12-2006, 04:00 AM
Can't really disagree with much there....


:gopacers:

My question for you is do you think we can keep up this offensive output and play defense at the same time for teh rest of the year?


Absolutley. One is not exclusive of another in my opinion. In fact I think that one helps the other.

Nothing stops a fast break better than a made basket & nothing will create more fast break opprotunities than solid defense.

Now here is the one thing that will NOT continue. We will not always shoot this good from the field.

But with better ball movement & less emphasis on double post ups I hope we see less & less 6-7 min. draughts from the offensive end.

Suaveness
01-12-2006, 04:03 AM
Absolutley. One is not exclusive of another in my opinion. In fact I think that one helps the other.

Nothing stops a fast break better than a made basket & nothing will create more fast break opprotunities than solid defense.

Now here is the one thing that will NOT continue. We will not always shoot this good from the field.

But with better ball movement & less emphasis on double post ups I hope we see less & less 6-7 min. draughts from the offensive end.

This is the one thing that I'm curious about. I really want to see what happens when we shoot 42-44% from the floor, yet playing this style of basketball. If we do as you say, continuing to have better ball movement and less stagnatioin, then I have no doubt that we can still win games. Whether or not this happens we will probably find out soon, since this hot shooting will not last too long.

Will Galen
01-12-2006, 04:24 AM
...Am I dumb enough to think we could win a title with these guys?

Well, yes I am.


Me too! I think the powers that be think so too if they are actualy trading Ron for Maggette as rumored.

And . . . and, I said I thought we could compete for a title 10 minutes before you did. (giggle)

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18048 post #6

GetOdom
01-12-2006, 04:44 AM
Good Stuff :D ;)

On a sidenote: It sucks not seeing Bender, I was so high on him time when I saw Bender I saw a guy who was gonna be a awesome player he would've been a match-up nightmare for any player.

It's to bad this guy had to go through Injuries & Injuries & Injuries.

We all love you Bender but we have Harrison now "aka" Hulk.

DeS
01-12-2006, 05:31 AM
Yes, I didn't watch the game, but it's enough to look at score box to see that Pacers played like a TEAM. What about our bench scoring more than starters? Is it Rick intentionaly build such a system? Is it that we are really that deep?

able
01-12-2006, 06:34 AM
Peck's posts are always the ideal place to post your thoughts, simply beacuse his are so thought provoking :D

His remark of seeing Jeff and Cro together on the floor made me realize what I could not put my finger on when watching the Lakers game and why I was so happy with that game despite the loss: This team has balance because of the starting of David Harrisson.

Not only does David get a chance to develop like he did last year getting minutes (you can almost see him get better from game to game) but he reinforces our bench.

And best of all, I am sure Rick was planning this, so I am pretty sure David will keep starting for the near future.

I remember about 6 weeks ago (when the artest saga part X began) that Rick was saying he had been looking at ways of starting David, at that time it was conceived as spin, but the more I see the more I am convinced he was sincere, because at that time (of course also due to Ron's absence) some "new things" creeped in the games.

For one; Tins started of the game with 3 drives inside for lay-up attempts (and yes that is how he got injured) it established something; room for our outside game.

But with Tins out and little room created inside, defense had still the chance to collapse on JO, double team him and or get in time to the shooter.

JO with Cro was an idea, but Cro is an outside threat more then inside and therefore little room was still left for JO.

With Jeff coming back we would have had the same problem once he starts, Jeff is no "threat" inside, so defenders can leave him alone to help on JO or the shooter, leaving difficult shots and forced play by JO.

Now we have David inside, and the drives are a success, they can not leave David alone, he creates room for the drive, by blocking a few defenders out of the way, and can score is needed.
The one team that defended those inside drives (by Jax or even AJ as in LA) was the Warriors and what happened? David scored 6 points in the first 2 minutes, and that was the end of that experiment for them.

What it ultimately does is it keeps the defense honest, it is not something that will show up in David's stats, but it sure as hell makes life easier for our shooters, who now have time to get a good (and therefore high percentage) shot of.

It also creates more balance to our bench, as Peck said, Jeff and Cro on the floor together works brillliant, and with Freddie added to the mix we have two teams which is what somehow has always been Rick's ideal.

Just look at a possible rotation IF we get Corey:

Tins/Saras/AJ
Corey/Jax/Fred
Granger/Jax/Fred/Corey
JO/Cro
David/Jeff/Polly

With 3players possible at PG (Tins Saras and AJ)
5 possible at SG (Jax. Corey, Fred, AJ & Saras)
4 possible at SF (Granger, Corey, Jax, Fred)
3 possible at PF (JO, Cro, Granger)
5 possible at C (David, Jeff, JO, Polly, Cro)

and that is with 12 players on the roster (sorry Eddy)

The future is Bright

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 07:59 AM
The real test of this offense is when they face a good defensive team and whether they can score in the 4th quarter in a playoff or playoff type game. Until we know the answer we won't know how effective it will be when it counts most. I'm all for running, but there comes a time when you have to execute in the halfcourt and manufacture points.

PacerMan
01-12-2006, 08:54 AM
I've been thinking about this for a few games now & this seems as good a time as any to make a statement & a confession all at the same time.

First off, no odd thoughts about the Bucks game because Uncle Buck did a superb job & I don't want to take away from his game recap on his thread.

Go here to read his thoughts on the game. http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18042

So, while I might cover some of the things about the game in this post I really am covering this from a larger more philisophical standpoint.

When I say "this is my team" I don't mean that in a selfish isolated way.

I mean this.

I am proud to call this version of the Indiana Pacers a team I can be proud of & route for.

Yes, at times Jackson drives me crazy with his attitude & J.O. has on occasion of late reverted to yapping at refs. again (but nowhere like he used to) & God knows that when J.T. get's back he will be as fragile as ever.

But none of that matters right now because this team has been playing with purpose, unity, passion & dare I say enthusiasm.

Maybe it's because at the end of the day I am somewhat prejudiced towards Pacer drafted players.

But for some reason seeing Austin Croshere, Fred Jones, Danny Granger & David Harrison, Jeff Foster & maybe someday Jamaal Tinsley become a cohesive fighting force fills me with a sense of pride that I couldn't get from players that we traded for.

Don't get me wrong I still like the players we bring in, but for some reason when we grow them at home (so to speak) it kind of feels better.

Here's the thing.

If we let Artest sit on the bench the rest of the year I wouldn't care. If we traded Ron for a high draft pick that would be fine by me as well.

The players we have on the floor right now, doing battle for our team, is good enough for me for the rest of this season.

Am I dumb enough to think we could win a title with these guys?

Well, yes I am.:-o

No, honestly there is something there. Maybe it's because I want there to be something there so I'm seeing what isn't really there. But I honestly beleive that right now we are starting to become something we haven't been all season long.

A TEAM.

Right now there is no one star who is shining brighter than the next guy.

Hell, Jermaine O'Neal was doing his best to be a point guard last night vs. the Bucks.

I honestly think he cares more about winning right now than anything else. If Rick told him to go out & not shoot but just rebound I think J.O. would do it.

That say's a lot for the man because this is a guy who could pad his stats every single game if he wanted to.

I have to give the majority of this credit to Rick Carlisle though.

He has changed the offense to match the players we have on the floor. He has gone away, for the most part, from the egg timer player rotations & he has the defense humming along nicely.

I like the fact that we are using our bench more & that no one player is playing 40+ min. a game like we used to do.

A front court of J.O. & Harrison with Cro & Foster backing them up is working quite nicely.

Get ready for the big suprise here.

I haven't even had a problem with the way he has used Foster for the past 4 games.

Start David & let him get some time on the floor. But Foster offers a very nice change of pace when he comes in & I love the fact that Jeff & Austin are playing together & not competing with each other as much for min. on the floor.

Ok, I guess I'm breaking my own statement here but I have to make one comment about that Bucks game.

Austin Croshere is something that you cannot teach or practice.

Austin Croshere is clutch.

You either are clutch or you are not clutch & beleive me Austin is clutch.

You need a rebound? Austin will get it in the 4th. Need a point? Let Cro drive & draw a foul because it's two.

He virtually slammed the door shut on the Bucks in the 4th with his play.

Ok, back to my real post.

I love Granger. Is it ok for me to say that I feel great that I can love one of our small forwards again for the first time since, well..... have I ever liked one of our small forwards??? I kind of liked Chris Mullin.

Artest was an idiot, Rose was a cancer & Satan was the personification of evil so I guess I'll have to go back to Chuck. But I wasn't really that thrilled with him either.

I guess I really have to go all the way back to Special K.

But not now.

I am a full fledged card carrying member of the Dan Wagon. There is nothing about him I don't like. He's already a good defender in this league at his position & I think by the end of this year he will be a great defender at his position. In two years I think he will be the premier defender at his position.

Yes even better than Ron.

I do NOT use the Untouchable lable lightly. In fact I never use it at all except for now.

Unless we were bringing in a superstar to replace him, Danny Granger better be untouchable.

Like Hicks said, God finally took pity on us for all of the years of Artest, Bender, etc.

Dan is the Man.

David Harrison is getting it. It takes centers longer to develop, but David has already cut way down on the fouls & he is starting to use his feet better on defense.

Ok, I'm starting to do a player by player breakdown which I don't want to do..

I just love this team right now.

Now the confession time.

I haven't liked much about the Indiana Pacers for the past 5 years. I've been a fan & I've continued to buy tickets & watch every game.

But to be honest, I didn't like many of the players & in fact in Ron's case I was ashamed he was on our team & hated the stupid attention he would bring to our club.

The very sight of Bender offended me for 6 years.

Jermaine O'Neal was an immature prima donna who was a false tough guy.

To me this never seemed much like a team, but a collection of talent that we hoped would gel & become a team. It didn't work.

Was Artest this much of a problem? Yes. Yes he was, but he wasn't the only problem.

I think it's great that the Bender thing has finally been taken out of play so that way nobody has to look over thier shoulder waiting on Jon to take their min. when he never earned them.

But Jermaine O'Neal has grown up over the years. He's gotten better & better each year. But this year I have full faith in him & am proud that he is our leader on the court & co/leader with Cro off of it.

I guess what I'm just saying is that the team we have on the floor right now I am proud of, win or lose, & I am ok if we don't add anything to it & in fact I don't really want anything taken away from it at the moment.

This summer we can do some form of trade to get maybe some quality for quantitie, but I would rather just end the season with the team we have & let them grow.

Every game that Granger & Harrison play is one less game in the future they will need to develop.

This really is a poorly written & rambling post. I know what I want to convey but I'm not sure if I'm making my point.

Oh well.

Go Pacers!!!!


I agree with everything about 'team' and not liking them while artest was there. Was a real test of my loyalty to keep rooting for them while he was here.
Disagree about them being able to win it as configured. Just not enough scoring punch. WHen the playoffs start and they double Jermaine full time, those great role players aren't consistant enough shooters to win us games at crunch time.
We need another shooter. JMO

NaptownBound
01-12-2006, 09:08 AM
i pretty much agree with everything you just said. however, i do have one bone to pick with you... you didn't even mention Fred Jones! he's been ballin' the last few weeks.

Diamond Dave
01-12-2006, 09:10 AM
Peck's posts are always the ideal place to post your thoughts, simply beacuse his are so thought provoking :D

His remark of seeing Jeff and Cro together on the floor made me realize what I could not put my finger on when watching the Lakers game and why I was so happy with that game despite the loss: This team has balance because of the starting of David Harrisson.

Not only does David get a chance to develop like he did last year getting minutes (you can almost see him get better from game to game) but he reinforces our bench.

And best of all, I am sure Rick was planning this, so I am pretty sure David will keep starting for the near future.

I remember about 6 weeks ago (when the artest saga part X began) that Rick was saying he had been looking at ways of starting David, at that time it was conceived as spin, but the more I see the more I am convinced he was sincere, because at that time (of course also due to Ron's absence) some "new things" creeped in the games.

For one; Tins started of the game with 3 drives inside for lay-up attempts (and yes that is how he got injured) it established something; room for our outside game.

But with Tins out and little room created inside, defense had still the chance to collapse on JO, double team him and or get in time to the shooter.

JO with Cro was an idea, but Cro is an outside threat more then inside and therefore little room was still left for JO.

With Jeff coming back we would have had the same problem once he starts, Jeff is no "threat" inside, so defenders can leave him alone to help on JO or the shooter, leaving difficult shots and forced play by JO.

Now we have David inside, and the drives are a success, they can not leave David alone, he creates room for the drive, by blocking a few defenders out of the way, and can score is needed.
The one team that defended those inside drives (by Jax or even AJ as in LA) was the Warriors and what happened? David scored 6 points in the first 2 minutes, and that was the end of that experiment for them.

What it ultimately does is it keeps the defense honest, it is not something that will show up in David's stats, but it sure as hell makes life easier for our shooters, who now have time to get a good (and therefore high percentage) shot of.

It also creates more balance to our bench, as Peck said, Jeff and Cro on the floor together works brillliant, and with Freddie added to the mix we have two teams which is what somehow has always been Rick's ideal.

Just look at a possible rotation IF we get Corey:

Tins/Saras/AJ
Corey/Jax/Fred
Granger/Jax/Fred/Corey
JO/Cro
David/Jeff/Polly

With 3players possible at PG (Tins Saras and AJ)
5 possible at SG (Jax. Corey, Fred, AJ & Saras)
4 possible at SF (Granger, Corey, Jax, Fred)
3 possible at PF (JO, Cro, Granger)
5 possible at C (David, Jeff, JO, Polly, Cro)

and that is with 12 players on the roster (sorry Eddy)

The future is Bright

IMO there is no way they could bench Jax without causing dissension. Nor should they, not after the way he has picked up his game. If that trade were to go down then Corey would have to be the backup, or you bench Granger. And even if Corey was the backup, what about Fred Jones. After all he has done?

Thinking about it now, I don't think Corey would be a good pickup because it overloads us and causes problems. Right now I'm in favor of trading Ron for #1 draft pick.

owl
01-12-2006, 09:11 AM
Peck said.."Hell, Jermaine O'Neal was doing his best to be a point guard last night vs. the Bucks.

I honestly think he cares more about winning right now than anything else. If Rick told him to go out & not shoot but just rebound I think J.O. would do it.

That say's a lot for the man because this is a guy who could pad his stats every single game if he wanted to.

I have to give the majority of this credit to Rick Carlisle though."


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

JO has been reading my description of what his role should be on the team,
ie rebound, defend-block shots, pass and score a little. This team will be its
best with a shooting guard leading in scoring. So I take all the credit
for JO's game recently ;-)


It is a joy to see them play this way Peck. I will call it the Sarunas effect.
Heck I saw Jackson give up the ball on a break away to JO :0
Sarunas moves the ball around and maybe he truly having an affect on the
team.


owl

able
01-12-2006, 09:23 AM
IMO there is no way they could bench Jax without causing dissension. Nor should they, not after the way he has picked up his game. If that trade were to go down then Corey would have to be the backup, or you bench Granger. And even if Corey was the backup, what about Fred Jones. After all he has done?

Thinking about it now, I don't think Corey would be a good pickup because it overloads us and causes problems. Right now I'm in favor of trading Ron for #1 draft pick.

I am sure that IF we got Corey, when coming in health and form he would be coming of the bench, from last to sooner, after that it is up to who plays best, dissenting players or not.

It would put Fred back a spot, i.e. become 7th man, or it would make Granger 7th man, depending on what is going to happen, but IMO Jax is best suited at the 2, not the 3, therefore my above idea, Granger starts for the same reasons Harrisson starts, to re-enforce the second unit, get quality time experience and because he's better at the 3, but if Corey proves better at the 3, instead of the 2, then that is all interchangeable, which was my main point.

With Jax covered well, like in LA we loose to much firepower, Fred has to come in to early, foul making trend has started and is hard to reverse, thus it may just be better , even for Jax, to log hte same amount of minutes (or close to) but come of the bench, though it may be likely that he closes the games out.

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 09:23 AM
IMO there is no way they could bench Jax without causing dissension. Nor should they, not after the way he has picked up his game. If that trade were to go down then Corey would have to be the backup, or you bench Granger. And even if Corey was the backup, what about Fred Jones. After all he has done?

Thinking about it now, I don't think Corey would be a good pickup because it overloads us and causes problems. Right now I'm in favor of trading Ron for #1 draft pick.


Good points. But don't forget Fred is a free agent and is likely to leave. Or Jax is lkely to be traded. One or the other will happen. They won't have Corey, Fred, and Jax on the team next season

naptownmenace
01-12-2006, 09:30 AM
His remark of seeing Jeff and Cro together on the floor made me realize what I could not put my finger on when watching the Lakers game and why I was so happy with that game despite the loss: This team has balance because of the starting of David Harrisson.


Boom Baby! That is the exact thought I came away with from this game.

Rick deserves a lot of credit for sticking with Harrison in the starting lineup. It sets the tone for the game because people don't want to drive into the lane with both he and JO down low.

We're also starting to see a reincarnation of the "Bench Mob" gameplan that worked so well during Rick's final season in Detroit. The fact that the bench contains guys that Rick trusts makes it easier for him to make substitutions at the right time - there's no second guessing.

You also have to love the energy that the bench brings into the game. They are quick, 1-5, and the change of pace can seldomly be matched by the opposing team's bench players. Having Foster, Croshere, FJ, and Saras come off the bench is like bringing in 4 starters so the drop off in play is minimal, in fact it's a quicker lineup especially if you add Granger to the mix.

If the Pacers get anyone on the level of Corey Maggette or even a couple of young projects and 1st round picks, this team should still finish 3rd or 4th (record-wise) in the East. Depending on how well Miami comes together, they could finish as high as 2nd.

However, I don't think the Pacers have a chance of going any further than 6 games against Detroit.

Isaac
01-12-2006, 09:31 AM
Great post Peck, i couldn't agree more.

Diamond Dave
01-12-2006, 09:55 AM
Good points. But don't forget Fred is a free agent and is likely to leave. Or Jax is lkely to be traded. One or the other will happen. They won't have Corey, Fred, and Jax on the team next season

Okay, but what about the rest of this year? And I'm still saying that you can't have Jax and Corey on the same team, which would happen because both would be under contract and they just wouldn't resign Fred. Jax and Corey are both starting caliber two-guards and neither will be happy playing bench. And I don't want Granger to have to spend any less time on the floor or at power forward (out of position).

To me it seems we should decide who is going to be our starter between Jax or Corey and get rid of the other and resign Fred as the backup. But with the way Jax has been playing I'm not sure I want to gamble with success and hope that Corey could do what? Maybe give us 2-4 more points a game.

Bball
01-12-2006, 10:08 AM
Okay, but what about the rest of this year? And I'm still saying that you can't have Jax and Corey on the same team, which would happen because both would be under contract and they just wouldn't resign Fred. Jax and Corey are both starting caliber two-guards and neither will be happy playing bench. And I don't want Granger to have to spend any less time on the floor or at power forward (out of position).

To me it seems we should decide who is going to be our starter between Jax or Corey and get rid of the other and resign Fred as the backup. But with the way Jax has been playing I'm not sure I want to gamble with success and hope that Corey could do what? Maybe give us 2-4 more points a game.

I'm inclined to follow your line of thinking. If Corey can't play this season then you have either Freddy or Sjax knowing he replaces one of them and has that hanging over them the whole season.

If he can play this season then maybe you can move somebody and make the space. Balance has been a problem for this team for a long while now. We've just been unable to completely make a move, so we do it halfway, or simply sit and wait. Only now do we have a pecking order with a look of balance to it. I hate to mess with that.

But if things are about next season anyway..... (altho TPTB and the local media won't ever tell us that directly).

-Bball

RWB
01-12-2006, 10:16 AM
I really don't pay attention to the Clips so I have to ask....is Maggette a shooter or scorer? If he has a pure shot then go for it and say goodbye to Jax somehow. If he's more like Jax (a scorer) then we need to look somewhere else.

Hicks
01-12-2006, 10:27 AM
I'm feeling similarly. Looking at our offense now, the idea of getting Corey Maggette excites me because we need his type of game to bail us out when our shots aren't falling; the guy is all about creating offense and drawing fouls.

Hicks
01-12-2006, 10:28 AM
I really don't pay attention to the Clips so I have to ask....is Maggette a shooter or scorer? If he has a pure shot then go for it and say goodbye to Jax somehow. If he's more like Jax (a scorer) then we need to look somewhere else.

He's neither a shooter or like Jackson. He's a slashing scorer, but does it very very well. Lately he was going to the line 10 times a game or something like that.

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 10:37 AM
Here is what I posted in another thread about Maggette.

I'll do my best, but I'm not an expert on him, so I hope others jump in too. He is a slasher, meaning he drives to the basket and is very good at doing that and drawing fouls where he shoots about 85%. He shoots a lot of free throws and he makes most of them. He's very athletic, runs the court extremely well, and is very aggessive. He is a high flyer and is fearless on his drives.

The name Jerry Stackhoue keeps coming to mind. Stackhouse of maybe 3 or 4 years ago. That might not be the best comparison, but it keeps coming to mind.

Maggette is also an excellent isolation player, he has an extremely quick first step and usually can beat his man. He is a guy who you can occasionally just give the ball too and ask him to create something

He is turnover prone, but considering his game it is normal.

Defense: I've seen him play excellent defense. In fact when I watch the Clippers broadcoast I hear their announcers say how their perimeter defense is suffering because Corey is out. I think he is a good defender, who can be excellent. I don't foresee a problem there at all. He's not Artest, but he's as good as Fred or Jax defensively.

No I get into more speculation: Attitude, I think it's OK, but he's never played an NBA playoff game, so who knows what he's like under pressure. I've never heard him to be a problem guy, but I could be wrong.

Injuries: Yes he's had his share of injuries that have limited number of games played, but also he's been injured and still played. So I do consider him injury prone. If he weren't I doubt the clippers would be trading him.

He has the talent to be a allstar in the right situation.

I'll be interested to read Kstat's comments about him, he usually has a good read on players

BillS
01-12-2006, 10:42 AM
I liked what I saw last night (only saw the second half because the grandboy was over and absolutely had to watch The Incredibles).

As others have said, I worry when the outside shots are not falling, because our team seems to all go cold at the same time.

Now, the interesting thing is that this is something that could improve by the last part of the season. As people get used to working together in the same kind of moving offense, they individually get more comfortable, meaning their rhythm is not dependent on someone else's rhythm.

The other thing is that a team that lives by outside shooting is dangerous to both themselves and their opponents. If we are able in the playoffs to string together a couple of lights-out shooting games, we can pretty much beat anyone. Yes, that takes a lot of luck, but I'd take it in a heartbeat were it to happen.

Harmonica
01-12-2006, 10:44 AM
What a difference a couple of weeks make. It was getting to the point where I would log on here and immediately log off because of all the doom-and-gloom and silly trade rumors. That wasn't directed at you, Peck; I never saw you panic. But it was tough coming around here for awhile. I'm glad the "unofficial leader" of this board has finally stepped forward and said what I've been feeling. Maybe it'll help set a tone here.

RWB
01-12-2006, 10:47 AM
Thanks to Hicks and UB for giving me some insight to Maggettes' abilities.

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 10:48 AM
Here are Maggette's free throw numbers.

This season he's averaging 8.9 attempts per game and shooting 87%.

Last season he averaged 9.95 attempts per game and shot 86%.

The season before he averaged 8.5 per game and shot 85%

very impressive indeed.

Will Galen
01-12-2006, 10:49 AM
What a difference a couple of weeks make. It was getting to the point where I would log on here and immediately log off because of all the doom-and-gloom and silly trade rumors. That wasn't directed at you, Peck; I never saw you panic. But it was tough coming around here for awhile. I'm glad the "unofficial leader" of this board has finally stepped forward and said what I've been feeling. Maybe it'll help set a tone here.

Hmmm, probably what was affecting me. I'm much better now!

sweabs
01-12-2006, 11:00 AM
Defense: I've seen him play excellent defense. In fact when I watch the Clippers broadcoast I hear their announcers say how their perimeter defense is suffering because Corey is out. I think he is a good defender, who can be excellent. I don't foresee a problem there at all. He's not Artest, but he's as good as Fred or Jax defensively.

That's funny, because I get to see a lot of Clippers games throughout the year and I hear the opposite. They're usually raving about Cutino Mobley, and in particular Quinton Ross's defense.

For a while, they were happy bringing Maggette off the bench at the beginning of the year, while having Quinton Ross take his spot in the starting lineup because Ross would actually bring a defensive presence. I also remember watching a game this year (I forget who they were playing) where I found it odd that they opted to have Mobley guard Maggette's man instead (despite being much shorter) because Corey just couldn't handle it.

And, as has been stated before; I can't deal with another injury-ridden player like Maggette where it's considered a "luxury" that they're playing one night or the other. I'd rather have guys we can depend upon, to develop the best chemistry possible.

Speaking of chemistry, Maggette + Jackson will not work in my opinion.

sweabs
01-12-2006, 11:04 AM
This season he's averaging 8.9 attempts per game and shooting 87%.

Come on now...are we even allowed to use his numbers from this year? ;)

The guy has played about 40% of their games thus far. It's like using Artest's numbers from last year to show how good he is.

Peck
01-12-2006, 05:23 PM
The real test of this offense is when they face a good defensive team and whether they can score in the 4th quarter in a playoff or playoff type game. Until we know the answer we won't know how effective it will be when it counts most. I'm all for running, but there comes a time when you have to execute in the halfcourt and manufacture points.


You, of course, are right.

However the test for the offense will not be a test of my feelings for this team.

As long as they are busting their @sses & the individual agenda's are kept out of this I am thrilled with the team on the floor that we have.

Funny though, if they keep busting their @sses & keep the individual agenda's out of this then winning will take care of itself.

I know that this is not your idea of a team, but I'm not sure we will ever be able to get what you are looking for. Nor for that matter did we ever really have what you thought, IMO.:)

Peck
01-12-2006, 05:31 PM
I agree with everything about 'team' and not liking them while artest was there. Was a real test of my loyalty to keep rooting for them while he was here.
Disagree about them being able to win it as configured. Just not enough scoring punch. WHen the playoffs start and they double Jermaine full time, those great role players aren't consistant enough shooters to win us games at crunch time.
We need another shooter. JMO

I'm intrigued by another scorer as well. However the problem is that you are going to get that person from either the 2 or 3 spot on the floor & to be honest with you I don't want Danny Granger to sit right now.

I'm not delusional. I know that if we were to play a healthy Detroit team we would lose in 6. But guess what, we've lost in 6 to them for two straight years anyway so I'd rather do it with guys I like & respect.

But what if Billups twist an ankle & Hamilton pulls a groin muscle. Do we then still have no chance against them? I know the two happening are not likely, but it's not out of the relm of possibilitys.

Miami? Yes, they would be tough but I'm not sure that they are unbeatable.

Other than that, maybe Cleveland would be hard but nobody else scares me at all.

pizza guy
01-12-2006, 11:03 PM
The real test of this offense is when they face a good defensive team and whether they can score in the 4th quarter in a playoff or playoff type game. Until we know the answer we won't know how effective it will be when it counts most. I'm all for running, but there comes a time when you have to execute in the halfcourt and manufacture points.

Yup, and that's part of the reason I'd like to see us get Maggette. He can get to the charity stripe knock down those HUGE free throws that everyone else seems to miss (except Cro and Sarunas).

As to Peck's original post, I couldn't agree more. I've noticed that they're regained their winning attitude. For a while, they were just a wandering group of guys who looked like they didn't know what was going on. Now, with some line-up changes, and a sudden outburst of great play from SJax (not that I wanna keep him now, cuz I still don't), and whatever else, the team is playing like they want to, and know how to win basketball games. They're putting the effort into it that it takes. Players are raising their game: the aforementioned SJax, JO's passing has been outstanding lately, Sarunas is back on track, Freddie has been out of his mind, Granger, Foster, and Hulk are getting better every game, Cro is maximizing his playing time with rbds, good shots, FTs, etc. The team is really playing like a team, and they're fun to watch again. There was a short period of time where I didn't want to watch these guys, but, they got through that and they're really playing some good ball.

I'll say I'm proud to be a Pacers' fan again.