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Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 10:16 PM
I worded the question that way on purpose.

Right now I see the team developing some chemistry. I see the team playing better together. Not to say that can't play together with Tinsley, but how many games will he be able to play before he gets injured again, and when he does get injured then the team is disrupted once again.

Another concern of mine. For whatever reason I see better ball movement when Tinsley is not in there. Whether you want to blame Tinsley for this or not, I don't care, but I see what I see.

Of course even assuming he does come back who becomes the 3rd string point guard. AJ or Saras.

Pacersfan.
01-11-2006, 10:18 PM
Maybe we should should just bring him off the bench in the guise of slowly integrating him back, but by the time he integrates he'll probably be injured again.

Evan_The_Dude
01-11-2006, 10:20 PM
I think we should give Tinsley the Bender treatment and not rush him back. Let him work his way back into the lineup instead of putting him there. You know how in the NFL you can be the teams starting QB, then go down with an injury, only to have the backup lead the team better and end up with the starting job? You get the point...

Isaac
01-11-2006, 10:21 PM
I agree with Ev_eezy. No rush to bring him back right now, we're winning ball games.

Young
01-11-2006, 10:21 PM
I'm all for getting rid of Jamal. Good player but can't stay healthy and we can't build chemistry with him, he is always injured and by the time we start getting some chemistry he comes back.

Jaydawg2270
01-11-2006, 10:22 PM
yes but dont rush it

slyder
01-11-2006, 10:23 PM
i see the improved chemistry, too. i just
don't see what TPTB really see in tinsley.
once again, it's not so much that he is not a
good player (he is not a great PG for sure)
but seems like he might do better in a different
(read different coach's) system.

i prefer AJ and Saras running the point. but when will
we reconcile the "system" with the players?? i think
that question will loom larger as summer approaches.

i like RC but it's a lot easier to get a different coach
than gut the team and try to re-build it to fit a coach
whose time here may have come and gone anyway.

maybe the question you pose is best viewed in
context of who is doing the coaching.

Outlaw
01-11-2006, 10:29 PM
I'm starting to doubt we will see Tinsley anytime soon with his lastest injury.I would love to ship him off personaly.

indygeezer
01-11-2006, 10:38 PM
Slick mentioned Mel's constant injury problems. At this point everybody in the league is going to know he has injury problems +he is BYC so we get zip in trade value for him.
2nd string...barely ahead, nah I can't even say that...3rd string just ahead of EG.

Kegboy
01-11-2006, 10:39 PM
So, today it's Tinsley. Man, I have such a hard time keeping track of the source of all our problems.

Fireball Kid
01-11-2006, 10:40 PM
I've never liked Tinsley's game that much to be honest with yall. Trade him.

indygeezer
01-11-2006, 10:43 PM
So, today it's Tinsley. Man, I have such a hard time keeping track of the source of all our problems.


That's becasue we have so many sources.
You don't think Slick pointing it out is noticable?

Harmonica
01-11-2006, 10:46 PM
Maybe we can get Tins and Bender to retire in a joint ceremony.

Kegboy
01-11-2006, 10:50 PM
That's becasue we have so many sources.
You don't think Slick pointing it out is noticable?

Slick's biggest complaint about Isiah's tenure was his benching of Ron Mercer. After how well Ron acquitted himself in SA and NJ, I've learned not to always take Slick's word as gospel.

BlueNGold
01-11-2006, 10:52 PM
I never thought I would say this, but yes, I am fine with Mel-Mel not coming back.......................

Interesting. I have generally wanted Tinsley traded because of his attitude and his health. At the same time, I am reluctant to see him go because of what he brings. He really has some amazing skills and you never have to worry about him handling pressure and if you need a bucket at crunch time, he can drive the lane. ...and I am yet to be comfortable with a Saras/AJ/Gill rotation at PG. I can just see Detroit throwing Prince or Lindsay Hunter on Saras or AJ as they attempt to bring the ball up the court. That would not work IMO.

Evan_The_Dude
01-11-2006, 10:57 PM
I think this is Tinsley's last year with us. I'd be willing to bet even he knows that. He's a good point guard, but not a championship teams point guard. At least not as a starter.

Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 10:57 PM
Slick's biggest complaint about Isiah's tenure was his benching of Ron Mercer. After how well Ron acquitted himself in SA and NJ, I've learned not to always take Slick's word as gospel.



What, that was not his biggest complaint. That was maybe number 12 on a list of maybe 20 things.

PacersGuest
01-11-2006, 10:58 PM
Tinsley is still our quickest PG even though he is not that quick. He is also our best playmaking PG even though Sarunas is not too shabby in that department. If the Pacers would trade Tinsley, then I think they would need to acquire a very good on the ball defender for the PG position. AJ is okay against the bigger guards, but he isn't quick enough to guard the Mike James's and the other quick PG's of the league. Somone like Earl Watson, a cheaper Marcus Banks, and maybe Chucky Atkins would be all suitable replacements to help our quickness.

18to88
01-11-2006, 10:59 PM
I worded the question that way on purpose.

Right now I see the team developing some chemistry. I see the team playing better together. Not to say that can't play together with Tinsley, but how many games will he be able to play before he gets injured again, and when he does get injured then the team is disrupted once again.

Another concern of mine. For whatever reason I see better ball movement when Tinsley is not in there. Whether you want to blame Tinsley for this or not, I don't care, but I see what I see.

Of course even assuming he does come back who becomes the 3rd string point guard. AJ or Saras.

Why do you hate Tinsley so much. I'd take him over Sarunas and Anthony Johnson anyday. He runs the team best. They had to develop chemistry because he was out. Why would we trade him and get screwed over on a deal with him too? His contract is only worth 50% in a trade.

Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 10:59 PM
I am blinded in one eye as we speak cause I ran into the corner of my car door this afternoon.........

Have you been to a doctor

Evan_The_Dude
01-11-2006, 11:00 PM
and maybe Chucky Atkins would be all suitable replacements to help our quickness.

For some reason I just know Carlisle is praying this will happen for Michael Curry like reasons...

Evan_The_Dude
01-11-2006, 11:02 PM
Why do you hate Tinsley so much. I'd take him over Sarunas and Anthony Johnson anyday. He runs the team best. They had to develop chemistry because he was out. Why would we trade him and get screwed over on a deal with him too? His contract is only worth 50% in a trade.

Because he's never healthy long enough for us to develop chemistry around him. We'd all love to see him stay healthy, but he has yet to do it in his career. Injuries with him have gotten to the point of not "if", but "when".

BTW. Nobody "hates" him. He's just not reliable.

BlueNGold
01-11-2006, 11:04 PM
Tinsley is still our quickest PG even though he is not that quick. He is also our best playmaking PG even though Sarunas is not too shabby in that department. If the Pacers would trade Tinsley, then I think they would need to acquire a very good on the ball defender for the PG position. AJ is okay against the bigger guards, but he isn't quick enough to guard the Mike James's and the other quick PG's of the league. Somone like Earl Watson, a cheaper Marcus Banks, and maybe Chucky Atkins would be all suitable replacements to help our quickness.
I almost made this point in a previous post. We need better quickness. If we got a Mike James-like player, we could release AJ and Tins without too much concern.

PacerMan
01-11-2006, 11:07 PM
Tins is our best playmaker and our best penetrator.
This team as configured needs both of those even more than it did when we had 2 stars. It's unfortunate for him to have missed this post-Ron rebonding that's going on. But this type of play is right up his ally. Way more so than our previous style of play.
He'll fit right in. And look very good doing it once he's back in shape.
And there's no way in hell this team would ever consider entering the playoffs with AJ or Saras bringing the ball upcourt all night.

Does ANYBODY here remember LAST seasons playoffs?? Boston saying they would have won that series if Tins hadn't come back??!!!! Hobbled!!!

pizza guy
01-11-2006, 11:08 PM
Tinsley is on the bus out of town.

Evan_The_Dude
01-11-2006, 11:09 PM
Does ANYBODY here remember LAST seasons playoffs?? Boston saying they would have won that series if Tins hadn't come back??!!!! Hobbled!!!

Around here you're only as good as your last game :D

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-11-2006, 11:13 PM
Tins does seem to be injured A LOT. I'm not a huge fan, but when he's hot, he's hot. But I do agree that putting him in and out all the time has got to disrupt this offense. Right now I'd rather keep FJ and trade JT.

BlueNGold
01-11-2006, 11:14 PM
Just thought I would share my favorite offensive stat (Points per FG attempt). I know, stats are overrated. Anyway, I think it is interesting that Saras is at the top, and Tins and AJ are near the bottom. I did not list Gill for obvious reasons (Gill was below AJ).

Sarunas Jasikevicius 1.46031746
Austin Croshere 1.446428571
Ron Ron 1.310810811
Jeff Foster 1.3
Jermaine O'Neal 1.271676301
Fred Jones 1.236111111
Danny Granger 1.204081633
Stephen Jackson 1.203125
Scot Pollard 1.153846154
Jamaal Tinsley 1.105769231
David Harrison 1.096774194
Anthony Johnson 1.090909091

theimpaler
01-11-2006, 11:24 PM
Tinsley can go as far as I'm concerned. He does have flashes where he looks great. But in the bigger picture he makes alot of dumb plays. Anyone recall him being blocked in the paint 637 times? Or bumbling a pass because he was trying to be fancy. Sarunis will develop into a fantastic NBA player. Larry's been scouting him for a couple of years. I think he is impressive for a rookie. He definetly has more of a chance to mature enough by playoff time to be the most valuable rookie in the playoffs.

SoupIsGood
01-11-2006, 11:27 PM
I worded the question that way on purpose.

Right now I see the team developing some chemistry. I see the team playing better together. Not to say that can't play together with Tinsley, but how many games will he be able to play before he gets injured again, and when he does get injured then the team is disrupted once again.

Another concern of mine. For whatever reason I see better ball movement when Tinsley is not in there. Whether you want to blame Tinsley for this or not, I don't care, but I see what I see.

Of course even assuming he does come back who becomes the 3rd string point guard. AJ or Saras.

I agree with what you are thinking here, especially what you bolded.

I love Tinsley's game, but he is too unreliable. Our team plays so differently when Tins plays and when he doesn't that we can't have him missing so many games, it messes with chemistry badly.

However, we can't leave AJ at starting PG long-term. He's playing better right now, but in the long run he is just not good enough. We would either have to flip the rotation and give Saras a chance at running this team, with AJ at backup, or we would have to trade for a new starting PG.

I'm for giving Saras a shot.... eventually. Let's ride AJ's good play for now though.

Diesel_81
01-11-2006, 11:45 PM
Tinsley can go as far as I'm concerned. He does have flashes where he looks great.

Tinsley is a all star talent, there is no doubt in my mind he has the phsyical skills to be a championship level pg but doesn't have the mental skills or the heart to get to that level as a pg. I think I've seen enough of him to know he can't be trusted to have the reins of this team.Your pg is supposed to be the leader, your floor general how can he be that player if he's always sick, injured and can't play.

Tim
01-11-2006, 11:55 PM
I worded the question that way on purpose.

Right now I see the team developing some chemistry. I see the team playing better together. Not to say that can't play together with Tinsley, but how many games will he be able to play before he gets injured again, and when he does get injured then the team is disrupted once again.

Another concern of mine. For whatever reason I see better ball movement when Tinsley is not in there. Whether you want to blame Tinsley for this or not, I don't care, but I see what I see.

Of course even assuming he does come back who becomes the 3rd string point guard. AJ or Saras.

We have been down this road before, Tinsley was benched and he won his job back, and the team won a lot of games too.

At this point I want to see Cabbage start since he is more of a natural point then AJ. Let AJ and Freddie spark the bench.

When Tinsley does make it back he comes off the bench until he wins his job back, if he can stay healthy enough to do it.

No matter what, we need Tinsley. The ball movement looks nice but truth be told the team isn't good enough to win consistently playing that way.

Kegboy
01-12-2006, 12:03 AM
What, that was not his biggest complaint. That was maybe number 12 on a list of maybe 20 things.

I remember him really going off about it, and nothing else mind you, right after Isiah was canned. I'm sure he had other complaints, but it seemed at the time a strange one to hang his argument on.

Bball
01-12-2006, 12:43 AM
Should the Pacers even bring Tinsley back?

Nope.

-Bball

Jermaniac
01-12-2006, 12:47 AM
Bring Jamaal back right now. Thats how I feel.

Jermaniac
01-12-2006, 12:48 AM
Nope.

-BballThis isnt like you. You usually have some 8 paragraph post with some theory inside it about how Tinsley is at fault for global warming, and child slavery in Africa. You disapoint me with this post.

Bball
01-12-2006, 01:28 AM
This isnt like you. You usually have some 8 paragraph post with some theory inside it about how Tinsley is at fault for global warming, and child slavery in Africa. You disapoint me with this post.


JO even wanted him gone a couple of seasons ago. It just took me longer to come around to agreeing with JO.

-Bball

CableKC
01-12-2006, 01:45 AM
Of course even assuming he does come back who becomes the 3rd string point guard. AJ or Saras.
Knowing Carlisle....Sarunas will be playing some backup SF or PF minutes before he gives him any backup PG ahead of AJ. :confused:

BTW....I'm sort of being sarcastic there.....but not really.

CableKC
01-12-2006, 01:53 AM
Question....I completely forget about the BYC condition of his contract. Can someone explain that to me?

I am guessing....for this season....it would mean that it would be difficult to trade him right?

Also...as a result...that means that once this season is over...would this BYC condition be over...and therefore easier to trade him?

If that is the case....basically due to his BYC condition in his contract...then I think it means that the Pacers would likely keep him ( simply cuz we won't get as much value for him ) and trade him in the offseason.

Fireball Kid
01-12-2006, 01:55 AM
AJ would be the third string point guard. Bird didnt sign Saras for nothing!

Dr. Goldfoot
01-12-2006, 02:06 AM
Tinsley only missed 2 games his rookie year.
9 games his 2nd year
Wasn't he benched for Kenny Anderson his third year? he missed 30 games
last year he missed 42
and he's missed 14 games this year.
didn't he miss some games because his mom/grandma died.

http://slamonline.com/magazine/features/Tinsley85/

CableKC
01-12-2006, 02:09 AM
AJ would be the third string point guard. Bird didnt sign Saras for nothing!
FYI....whenever AJ is on the court he is the guy running the point. Even when he is sharing the floor with Sarunas, AJ is the PG and Sarunas shifts to the SG spot.

The only time that Sarunas is the PG is when isn't on the floor with either Tinsley or AJ.

This is cuz Carlisle goes with what he knows.....playing players that he is comfortable with....which is rather unfortunate.

CableKC
01-12-2006, 02:10 AM
If Tinsley wasn't so damned injury prone...I would live with his knuckleheadedness cuz at this point....I am far more comfortable with Tinsley running the point as opposed to Sarunas. But as long as Tinsley is on the team....there is a need to have AJ on the team...and as long as AJ is on the team....Sarunas will not be able to do what he was brought in to be.....a backup PG ( at worst ) or the starting PG ( at best ).

rexnom
01-12-2006, 03:43 AM
Has everyone gone nuts? We need Tinsley! This is how you beat the Pacers without Tinsley: full-court press. Boston won two games this way last year with adequate pgs. Imagine a good team with great pgs. Sure, get rid of him but bring in a replacement that can also handle the ball and is at least semi-quick (like Mike James). Saras is great but he is not an NBA-type ball handler and will be torn to shreads by potent defenses. If Doc Rivers can press us than god knows what real coaches have waiting for us.

GetOdom
01-12-2006, 03:45 AM
Yes we should, he's one of the best players on this team he's a good shooter he's a good slasher when healthy and he's probably our best PG right now.

Bball
01-12-2006, 04:48 AM
Has everyone gone nuts? We need Tinsley! This is how you beat the Pacers without Tinsley: full-court press. Boston won two games this way last year with adequate pgs. Imagine a good team with great pgs. Sure, get rid of him but bring in a replacement that can also handle the ball and is at least semi-quick (like Mike James). Saras is great but he is not an NBA-type ball handler and will be torn to shreads by potent defenses. If Doc Rivers can press us than god knows what real coaches have waiting for us.

If the Pacers are so susceptible to a full court press, where's it at? Why isn't anybody trying it? Where'd it go?

Tinsley is out and the teams know that coming in. Actually, they can guess that he'll be out about any time they have the Pacers on their schedule so they should have the press in their arsenal ready to pull it out and smother the team.

I mean if we're that susceptible to it then you shouldn't need elite guards to pull it off.

I have a feeling this is one of those things that once the Pacers saw they were percieved as having a weakness there, they worked on it, made some adjustments (like keeping a man back) and have pretty much relegated the problem to the scrap heap.

Maybe someone will try it and shred us and prove me wrong, but I'm waiting to see it.

-Bball

rexnom
01-12-2006, 04:52 AM
If the Pacers are so susceptible to a full court press, where's it at? Why isn't anybody trying it? Where'd it go?


Teams don't really do team-specific defenses until playoff time. Sure, we might draw up a plan to stop Kobe but we won't have a very complicated or successful one drawn up unless we play them in the playoffs.

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 08:28 AM
Has everyone gone nuts? We need Tinsley! This is how you beat the Pacers without Tinsley: full-court press. Boston won two games this way last year with adequate pgs. Imagine a good team with great pgs. Sure, get rid of him but bring in a replacement that can also handle the ball and is at least semi-quick (like Mike James). Saras is great but he is not an NBA-type ball handler and will be torn to shreads by potent defenses. If Doc Rivers can press us than god knows what real coaches have waiting for us.



Couple of points:

There aren't that many teams who have point guards who can pressure the ball eithetr upcourt or at midcourt.

There are many coaches who don't believe in pressuring the ball either full court or at midcourt. They prefer their point guards get into a more containment mode and not pick up the opposing point guard until thjey reach the 3 point line.

PacerMan
01-12-2006, 08:30 AM
Around here you're only as good as your last game :D

Man, got that right!

Slick Pinkham
01-12-2006, 08:58 AM
I like to have the best players playing, when they are healthy, and Tinsley is by far the most complete PG on our team.

His recurring health issues are a MAJOR distraction, however.

Unless a trade brings in another decent PG I see no alternative than handing the starting PG job back to JT when he is physically capable, if winning playoff games is important to you.

Ragnar
01-12-2006, 09:19 AM
We are barely hovering above .500 with Tinsley out and you want to keep him benched because we can beat Golden State, Seattle and the Bucks without him?

Excuse me while I wipe the tears away from laughing so hard.

Its nice that Rick got his head out of his *** and figured out the Granger is our starting sf. If he had figured that out sooner we might even have a slightly better record.

But if you think we are making noise against Miami, Detroit or anyone else like that without Tinsley you are seriously diluted.

UB I have a question specifically for you. You have long used the excuse that AJ played with the backups for his miserable +/- How do you currently explain Sarunas having a higher +/- than AJ? Or are you willing to admit that AJ is just not that good and Sarunas should be starting UNTILL Tinsley gets back.

Slick Pinkham
01-12-2006, 09:23 AM
I'm all for running, but there comes a time when you have to execute in the halfcourt and manufacture points.



I know that you were not referring to Tinsley with that comment, but Mel-Mel is the person that immediately came to my mind. Maybe it was the way he was able to create in the playoffs vs. Boston last year when the offense was stagnant without him.

There must be some way to keep him healthy some of the time, or to get a suitable replacement by trade, and I don't think that a suitable replacement is currently wearing a Pacer uniform.

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 09:33 AM
But if you think we are making noise against Miami, Detroit or anyone else like that without Tinsley you are seriously diluted.

This might shock you, but I agree, in the playoffs when the defense is stiffling and plays either breakdown or simply won't work you need someone to create something out of nothing, I call it manufacturing offense. We need Tinsley in order to beat or have a chance to beat the Pistons or Heat. But I have zero confidence that he'll be healthy and in the meantime it really hurts a teams chemistry to have your starting point gaurd in and out so often.

UB I have a question specifically for you. You have long used the excuse that AJ played with the backups for his miserable +/- How do you currently explain Sarunas having a higher +/- than AJ? Or are you willing to admit that AJ is just not that good and Sarunas should be starting UNTILL Tinsley gets back.



I have no problems with Saras starting. (although things are going pretty well right now) But I can understand why Carlisle likes AJ, it's the same reason why I like AJ. Yes AJ is limited, but you know exactly what you are going to get from him and that gives coaches confidence and it gives me as a fan confidence

Unclebuck
01-12-2006, 09:39 AM
I know that you were not referring to Tinsley with that comment, but Mel-Mel is the person that immediately came to my mind. Maybe it was the way he was able to create in the playoffs vs. Boston last year when the offense was stagnant without him.

There must be some way to keep him healthy some of the time, or to get a suitable replacement by trade, and I don't think that a suitable replacement is currently wearing a Pacer uniform.


Well in some ways I was referring to Tinsley. He is one guy who can manufacture offense when things breaks down and that is very much needed in the playoffs. But will he be able to play, and in the meantime he'll be in and out of the lineup.

How to keep him healthy. Most of his injuries are from wear and tear, so maybe his current injury is a blessing in disguise

Bball
01-12-2006, 09:57 AM
Well in some ways I was referring to Tinsley. He is one guy who can manufacture offense when things breaks down and that is very much needed in the playoffs.

Or does he break things down so he can manufacture some offense?

-Bball

naptownmenace
01-12-2006, 10:19 AM
i see the improved chemistry, too. i just
don't see what TPTB really see in tinsley.
once again, it's not so much that he is not a
good player (he is not a great PG for sure)
but seems like he might do better in a different
(read different coach's) system.

That was a nearly perfect paragraph describing Tinsley. Even if he's 100% healthy, I don't think he's a good fit for this coach or this team.

Jerry_McGuire
01-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Pacers need Tinsley back to end regular season with some reasonable W55-L30 position, and maximum of ending at semi-final, like always in last years...

But if Pacers want to have chance to fight for champ winners title at last - they need to get rid of Tinsley and let Saras get in his style...

Jermaniac
01-12-2006, 11:48 AM
When the Pistons start pressing Saras everytime he gets the ball people are going to see how much we need Tinsley.

Jerry_McGuire
01-12-2006, 11:59 AM
If he dribbles different way than JT doesnt mean he cant handle the ball.

You should see some Moscow CSKA or Athens Panatinaikos pressing in
Euroleague- you wouldn't see much difference between that of Pistons.
However, he somehow managed to lead Maccabi to champions twice.

If he couldn't dribble of handle the pressing - he would never had been
Europe's best PG three times.... Think over.

Jermaniac
01-12-2006, 12:01 PM
Please dont talk about some Euro team playing like the Pistons. Please dont even bring that up. A team that is about to win 65 games in the NBA and you are comapring them to some damn team in Europe. The hell out of here.

Bball
01-12-2006, 12:03 PM
FWIW, the print edition of the Star has an article stating that Tinsley's return is nowhere near soon. He's working out, but not using the bad arm. He also says he not going to rush coming back.

-Bball

MagicRat
01-12-2006, 12:03 PM
If he dribbles different way than JT doesnt mean he cant handle the ball.

You should see some Moscow CSKA or Athens Panatinaikos pressing in
Euroleague- you wouldn't see much difference between that of Pistons.
However, he somehow managed to lead Maccabi to champions twice.

If he couldn't dribble of handle the pressing - he would never had been
Europe's best PG three times.... Think over.

I thought someone else once told us that someone else handled the ball against pressure, then passed to Saras once they were past half-court?

Jerry_McGuire
01-12-2006, 12:09 PM
Please dont talk about some Euro team playing like the Pistons. Please dont even bring that up. A team that is about to win 65 games in the NBA and you are comapring them to some damn team in Europe.

Damn you, Adams! I'm not comparing European teams to PISTONS overall.
Pistons would kick the hell out of any goddam team anywhere. I'm talking
about pressing. And pressing isn't any worse in Europe than in USA.
Europe is famous for its defensive basketball, and USA for offensive. So
please don't tell that we europeans are morons who can't press or defend
like NBA guys, ait! Might be - "white men can't jump", but guys know how
to defend.

So straight to the point - Pacers will never "see how much they need JT
when Pistons start to press Saras everytime he gets the ball"... :-

Jermaniac
01-12-2006, 12:11 PM
Thats right cause Tins will play in the playoffs

Bball
01-12-2006, 12:25 PM
Thats right cause Tins will play in the playoffs

If Tinsley comes back it simply throws the rotations right back into chaos. All the good of late, talking about a balanced roster and players coming together as they learm/know their roles, will be out the window.

Are you shuffling Sarunas back to SG to start with Tins and then moving Granger out of the starting lineup so Sjax can play SF? Are you putting Sarunas back to the 3rd string (If AJ is the starter and Sarunas the backup then if Tinsley returns where else would that put Sarunas without changing EVERYTHING else)?

As long as this team is playing like it is right now (and I am not talking the W/L record... I'm just talking play on the court) there is no reason to bring Tinsley back now or the rest of the season IMHO. He adds nothing. If he dresses he should be 3rd string. There's no way we need his attitude and inconsistency right now, nor do we need to gamble with our consistent rotation -that is working- for a player that is questionable to last 4 games, let alone a series. Attitude and consistent on court play and demeanor (lacking) is part of the problem. We are currently seeing that eliminated while Tinsley is on the bench. It's not a coincidence.

-Bball

Will Galen
01-12-2006, 12:31 PM
Please dont talk about some Euro team playing like the Pistons. Please dont even bring that up. A team that is about to win 65 games in the NBA and you are comapring them to some damn team in Europe. The hell out of here.

You really, really, suck at the way you express your opinions!

Ragnar
01-12-2006, 12:36 PM
If Tinsley comes back it simply throws the rotations right back into chaos. All the good of late, talking about a balanced roster and players coming together as they learm/know their roles, will be out the window.

Are you shuffling Sarunas back to SG to start with Tins and then moving Granger out of the starting lineup so Sjax can play SF? Are you putting Sarunas back to the 3rd string (If AJ is the starter and Sarunas the backup then if Tinsley returns where else would that put Sarunas without changing EVERYTHING else)?

As long as this team is playing like it is right now (and I am not talking the W/L record... I'm just talking play on the court) there is no reason to bring Tinsley back now or the rest of the season IMHO. He adds nothing. If he dresses he should be 3rd string. There's no way we need his attitude and inconsistency right now, nor do we need to gamble with our consistent rotation -that is working- for a player that is questionable to last 4 games, let alone a series. Attitude and consistent on court play and demeanor (lacking) is part of the problem. We are currently seeing that eliminated while Tinsley is on the bench. It's not a coincidence.

-Bball

BBall the reason we are seing better play is that it coincided not with Tinsley's absense but with Rick getting his head out of his *** and starting Granger at sf instead of Jack.

Before we were starting Sarunas out of position and Jack out of position now we are starting NO ONE out of position.

Right now as it stands we can beat the lower teams (not counting the Lakers) with Tinsley out and AJ starting.

Clearly if Rick throws the lineups out of whack it would cause problems that Jamaal all by himslef could not solve. The simple solution is to start Tinsley, Jack, Danny, J.O. and David. That lineup is our best starting lineup period.

Your second unit should be Sarunas, Freddie, (Jack and Danny sharing minutes at the 3) Cro and Foster.

Give Aj spot minutes at the 2 since Jack would still be playing some at the 3.

Jermaniac
01-12-2006, 12:38 PM
You really, really, suck at the way you express your opinions!Why are you reading them?

Fool
01-12-2006, 12:49 PM
BBall the reason we are seing better play is that it coincided not with Tinsley's absense but with Rick getting his head out of his *** and starting Granger at sf instead of Jack.

Before we were starting Sarunas out of position and Jack out of position now we are starting NO ONE out of position.

Right now as it stands we can beat the lower teams (not counting the Lakers) with Tinsley out and AJ starting.

Clearly if Rick throws the lineups out of whack it would cause problems that Jamaal all by himslef could not solve. The simple solution is to start Tinsley, Jack, Danny, J.O. and David. That lineup is our best starting lineup period.

Your second unit should be Sarunas, Freddie, (Jack and Danny sharing minutes at the 3) Cro and Foster.

Give Aj spot minutes at the 2 since Jack would still be playing some at the 3.

I agree with this. This whole "Tinsley is useless", seems like a pretty early call to me. It seems more pointless to dump him quickly at a loss then let him ride the season out and get some conclusive evidence on whether he can run with this line-up, and in the mean time wait for his contract to become more trade conducive.

CableKC
01-12-2006, 01:23 PM
All of this debate maybe pointless if there is no liklihood that Tinsley will be moved this season cuz of his BYC condition in his contract.

We will have to live with Tinsley on the roster...injured or not. If he isn't injured...Carlisle will go with the safe option....the players that he is comfortable with...Tinsley then AJ with Sarunas sprinkled in there at the PG/SG spot.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me how the BYC condition in his contract will likely affect how difficult it is to trade him for this season?

I am guessing that his trade value is dimiinished this season due to his BYC condition in his contract and considering that Tinsley is fairly cheap for a starting PG.....it may not be a good idea to move Tinsley before the 2005 trade deadline even if we wanted to. But I am hoping that once the 2005 season is over....that this BYC condition expires or no longer applies.

Bball
01-12-2006, 01:33 PM
All of this debate maybe pointless if there is no liklihood that Tinsley will be moved this season cuz of his BYC condition in his contract.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me how the BYC condition in his contract will likely affect how difficult it is to trade him for this season?

I am guessing that his trade value is dimiinished this season due to his BYC condition in his contract and considering that Tinsley is fairly cheap for a starting PG.....it may not be a good idea to move Tinsley before the 2005 trade deadline even if we wanted to. But I am hoping that once the 2005 season is over....that this BYC condition expires or no longer applies.

If we trade we a team under the cap I was under the impression BYC didn't matter at all. Further, don't we have a trade exemption we could use which would bolster Tinsley's trade value to approx what it would be without the BYC status? And lastly, does trading a BYC player and only able to get a player back earning half his salary actually HELP our salary cap/luxury tax situation?

I'm not sure but that the BYC thing isn't more of a red herring than anything (at least in this case).

-Bball

Ragnar
01-12-2006, 01:45 PM
If we trade we a team under the cap I was under the impression BYC didn't matter at all. Further, don't we have a trade exemption we could use which would bolster Tinsley's trade value to approx what it would be without the BYC status? And lastly, does trading a BYC player and only able to get a player back earning half his salary actually HELP our salary cap/luxury tax situation?

I'm not sure but that the BYC thing isn't more of a red herring than anything (at least in this case).

-Bball

A team can only take back a portion of his pay. So if the team they are trading to is over the cap they cant make the trade work unless it is so big that the difference falls within the !25% rule.

So unless we trade him to one of the teams under the cap for a player making about half of what he makes we cant trade him.

All of this talk is foolish IMO. I know a lot of people are sick and tired of his injuries including me. But to give up on him right now would be foolish. I cant believe that the huge amount of people on here who were still on the Bender bandwagoon a few weeks ago are ready to dump Tinsley now.

If he is not healthy for this years playoffs I would be in favor of moving him. Thats the ONLY scenario I would want to see him go. He is way to talented to just dump.

CableKC
01-12-2006, 01:46 PM
And lastly, does trading a BYC player and only able to get a player back earning half his salary actually HELP our salary cap/luxury tax situation?

-Bball

If that is the case....then that's part of the concern here.....cuz of this whole Artest thing.....we already are in a situation where we are not getting full value for a player that we could have gotten significantly more for.

Would Walsh want to go through the entire situation again where we trade yet another player whose value is much lower then it really is with Tinsley?

Tinsley's contract maybe smaller then most starting quality PGs and I am guessing his value is already diminished a bit due to his injury-prone label. Assuming that this BYC contract condition expires after the 2005 regular season....I am hoping ( and guessing ) that Walsh/Bird will sit on Tinsley until the offseason and then move him for more value.

If that is the case....then that means that we get to ride the Tinsley Injury train until the end of the 2005 season when he hobbles into the Playoffs for us. When Tinsley is healthy....he is gonna start, AJ is gonna back him up and Sarunas will be doing whatever the heck he does ( least of all is not play any PG minutes ).

CableKC
01-12-2006, 01:49 PM
If he is not healthy for this years playoffs I would be in favor of moving him. Thats the ONLY scenario I would want to see him go. He is way to talented to just dump.

Tinsley's last 2 playoffs don't bode well for you on this.....Tinsley somehow finds a way to get injured when we need him the most. The longer Tinsley stays out of the lineup for the regular season.....I hope it just translates into being slightly more durable during the last 2 months of the regular season....when the real season begins.

Is there anyway we can wrap Tinsley in Bubble wrap, stick him in storageand then take him out of storage in March and April to start for us for the Playoff run?

Bball
01-12-2006, 02:31 PM
If that is the case....then that's part of the concern here.....cuz of this whole Artest thing.....we already are in a situation where we are not getting full value for a player that we could have gotten significantly more for.

Would Walsh want to go through the entire situation again where we trade yet another player whose value is much lower then it really is with Tinsley?

Tinsley's contract maybe smaller then most starting quality PGs and I am guessing his value is already diminished a bit due to his injury-prone label. Assuming that this BYC contract condition expires after the 2005 regular season....I am hoping ( and guessing ) that Walsh/Bird will sit on Tinsley until the offseason and then move him for more value.

If that is the case....then that means that we get to ride the Tinsley Injury train until the end of the 2005 season when he hobbles into the Playoffs for us. When Tinsley is healthy....he is gonna start, AJ is gonna back him up and Sarunas will be doing whatever the heck he does ( least of all is not play any PG minutes ).


But, unless we get really lucky, maybe we don't need to be getting back 'equal value'. Maybe we'd be better served with a role player. We're not getting a superstar with Tinsley (or Artest) and we DO have some talent (or budding talent) at critical positions. Maybe it is time for some 'addition thru subtraction'.

And, while people keep talking about equal value, it's not like nobody knows Tinsley's attitude is questioned or that he's habitually injured. So maybe 'equal' value isn't exactly what some are thinking it is anyway. (IOW-Tins=over-valued).

IMHO TPTB need to stress a couple of things:
Filling the roster with players who play the right way and that stress team before "I" .... And having a balanced, consistent lineup. No overloaded positions or a team filled with players that are all "jacks of all trades... and masters of none". And depth is highly over-rated once you get past the 8th man. It may not only be over-rated but it can be counter-productive as well. IMHO

-Bball

McKeyFan
01-12-2006, 02:32 PM
Tinsley is the classic situation of sacrificing the best for the good.

Tinsley is good. No doubt about it. In fact, his good offensive performances at this point in time are better than the current "team" offensive looks we are seeing the past few games.

And there is the temptation: to stick with or go back to the "good" offense of Jamaal Tinsley. The problem is that Jamaal's good offense can't beat the superior teams of the league come playoff time. We need to develop the BEST offense the Pacers are capable of putting on the floor--a team offense.

The team offense we are currently seeing won't do it. But I believe it is possible that this team offense, 20 games from now, could gel into the best possible Pacer offense, certainly better than the Pacer offense dominated by Mel Mel's very good but not great individual performances.

Please, Rick and company, don't go back to the "good." Keep charging forward into the still yet unseen territory of team offense. We've seen glimpses of it, which is why I think so many guys on this board are excited.

McKeyFan

Ragnar
01-12-2006, 02:46 PM
Tinsley is the classic situation of sacrificing the best for the good.

Tinsley is good. No doubt about it. In fact, his good offensive performances at this point in time are better than the current "team" offensive looks we are seeing the past few games.

And there is the temptation: to stick with or go back to the "good" offense of Jamaal Tinsley. The problem is that Jamaal's good offense can't beat the superior teams of the league come playoff time. We need to develop the BEST offense the Pacers are capable of putting on the floor--a team offense.

The team offense we are currently seeing won't do it. But I believe it is possible that this team offense, 20 games from now, could gel into the best possible Pacer offense, certainly better than the Pacer offense dominated by Mel Mel's very good but not great individual performances.

Please, Rick and company, don't go back to the "good." Keep charging forward into the still yet unseen territory of team offense. We've seen glimpses of it, which is why I think so many guys on this board are excited.

McKeyFan

I disagree that Tinsley's offense cant beat the better teams at playoff time. The ONLY issue with Tinsley and playoffs is his penchant for being injured.

When he is on the roster we sweep the floor with other teams including the Pistons. The most often overlooked part of the Brawl game is that Tinsley single handedly destroyed the Pistons. The games we won against them last year in the playoffs where with Tinsley playing on one leg. The reason he was playing on one leg was that we had to rush him back to even get out of the 1st round.

We never would have beaten Boston without Jamaal it would have been a first round exit.

ChicagoJ
01-12-2006, 03:06 PM
McKey fan, are you actually suggesting the Pacers are better off in the playoffs without Tinsley??

:teach:

I'm not sure which playoffs you're watching, but Tinsley's health has been one of our most important variables in the playoffs the past two years. When he's healthy, we're okay. When he's not, we're doomed.

I don't like the fact that he's injury-prone. But if he wasn't *so* important in the playoffs, his injuries wouldn't matter.

Zoe'sMan
01-12-2006, 03:14 PM
I worded the question that way on purpose.

Right now I see the team developing some chemistry. I see the team playing better together. Not to say that can't play together with Tinsley, but how many games will he be able to play before he gets injured again, and when he does get injured then the team is disrupted once again.

Another concern of mine. For whatever reason I see better ball movement when Tinsley is not in there. Whether you want to blame Tinsley for this or not, I don't care, but I see what I see.

Of course even assuming he does come back who becomes the 3rd string point guard. AJ or Saras.

Helllllllll no. I've made this observation after he went out, and Artest was gone.......................Jack plays better. I believe Jack gets a lot of undeserved critizism around here. I think that Tins, Jack, and O'Neal do not and I repeat do not play well together for long periods of time. I mean look how much better the ball movement is, Jack and O'Neal had some sweet dimes last night and in previous games.
I have an issue with Tinsley. I think the Pacers should look at moving him because he is continually injury prone and the offense doesn't seem to do too much when he is out there.

McKeyFan
01-12-2006, 03:28 PM
McKey fan, are you actually suggesting the Pacers are better off in the playoffs without Tinsley??

Not right now, they're not. Haven't been for several years.

What I'm suggesting is that--if the crutch of Jamaal Tinsley is removed from the Pacer's offense--that, over time, the ultimate product would be better in the playoffs.

ChicagoJ
01-12-2006, 04:37 PM
Not right now, they're not. Haven't been for several years.

What I'm suggesting is that--if the crutch of Jamaal Tinsley is removed from the Pacer's offense--that, over time, the ultimate product would be better in the playoffs.


Well, that could be true.

Part of the problem is that AJ's lack of PG skills become even more magnified in the playoffs. AJ really can't run our offense to save his life, but there are other things he can do.

But what you are saying is that, if the Pacers re-build away from Tinsley, it could be better. Maybe. But it will certainly take more that just using the same players, but implementing a different offense with less reliance on JT. Because most of the current players need a strong PG to score.

Except for Jackson, he can crank up bad shots or fumble the ball away with either a good or bad PG.

waxman
01-12-2006, 04:59 PM
I'm torn on this one.... Jamaal really has some incredible skills, and I think he would thrive in the recent move to a more quick paced intuitive offense. It always seemed that the Pacers style of play was too confining for him.

I want to see Tins with the new starting lineup of DH/JO/DG/Jack becuase its definately worth giving that lineup a committed opportunity to gel. I really think we can still be dangerous to anyone come playoff time... maybe even an outside contender depending on how/if the Artest issue pans out.


But at this point it's really getting difficult to continue being dependant upon the undependable.


AJ has been very steady as of late, i kinda like it when the point guard play goes almost completely unnoticed... it tells me for the most part that they're doing their job.

BillS
01-12-2006, 05:25 PM
I disagree that Tinsley's offense cant beat the better teams at playoff time. The ONLY issue with Tinsley and playoffs is his penchant for being injured.

'nuff said.

Bball
01-12-2006, 06:10 PM
I'll make a deal with you guys... let's trade Tinsley... and if we end up sucking and can't do anything in the playoffs then I'll agree that you were right and I was wrong. ;)

As you can tell, I'm really down on Jamaal. He's not the type of player I want on a team that I follow. I'm not going to change in that regard and I doubt he is, so I'm just going to have to bear it until he's traded. And he will be traded. I have no doubt about it. It's a question of when, not if. Whether this season or next. ...At least I am going to keep telling myself that. ;) :D

-Bball

MagicRat
01-12-2006, 07:06 PM
Cowboy Bob would be so disappointed in some of you.......:shakehead

Sollozzo
01-12-2006, 07:24 PM
But if you think we are making noise against Miami, Detroit or anyone else like that without Tinsley you are seriously diluted.




If you think that we will make noise against Miami, Detroit, or any other tough team with Tinsley, then you are seriously dilutted.

Artest doesn't have to be the only one thats shipped out. If Tinsley is traded, I won't be shedding any tears. Let's bring some guys in that can actually play a consistant season.

brichard
01-12-2006, 07:29 PM
Don't some of you think that the Pacers started winning once Stephen Jackson found the basket? For crying out loud, I am so glad to have our shooting guard actually shoot. With him scoring with some accuracy, it helps open things for AJ, Saras, and everybody else.

Agree on JT being an unknown b/c of injuries. However, he does have court vision and I think folks are minimizing how much we need a PG with a handle. Saras and AJ have "okay" handles, but they will be undressed by a hard pressing team. Heck, Boston gave us fits last year let alone the Pistons.

Ragnar
01-12-2006, 09:31 PM
If you think that we will make noise against Miami, Detroit, or any other tough team with Tinsley, then you are seriously dilutted.

Artest doesn't have to be the only one thats shipped out. If Tinsley is traded, I won't be shedding any tears. Let's bring some guys in that can actually play a consistant season.

Lets see whats our record against Miami with Jamaal in the lineup.

Well we played Miami twice this year both with Jamaal and we won BOTH games.

So you must be talking about all the times they beat us last year with Jamaal right? You have to be talking about the 3 times we beat them last year. Including a couple of times without Jermaine, Ron or Stephen. We had players like Marcus Haslip in the linup and Jamaal tore the Heat a new one in the 4th (twice in a row)

Ok so maybe you were wrong about the Heat but surely you were right about the Pistons right surely we have not beaten them with Tinsley in the lineup?

Again wrong. The ONLY games we have won against Detroit have been with Jamaal in the lineup, including the brawl game where Tinsley completely destroyed the Pistons. Not to mention the playoff games on one leg where he was still enough of a difference that we won games. Yes we lost the series because his leg got worse and Rick stoped playing him. Yes his injuries are a valid issue. But to sit there in denial and pretend like we are not a whole hell of a lot better with him playing is absurd.

BlueNGold
01-12-2006, 10:10 PM
The only way we ship Tinsley out is if Saras learns to handle being trapped OR we pickup another PG who can handle it. AJ has proven he cannot do that and even if he could he has no PG skills and should be traded asap.

I think the best plan is to move AJ and Tins to get a healthy PG who can defend quick players and run the offense.