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View Full Version : Is Rick convinced David can get good minutes?



GetOdom
01-10-2006, 09:14 PM
I hope this is the case, last night David Impressed me he was energetic he was hustling on the boards he served up a good facial on Kwame.

This kid can diffenently play if given minutes.

HOPEFULLY RICK Realizes this.

GO Hulk show em what ya got! :rock:

SoupIsGood
01-10-2006, 09:17 PM
:whistle:

Isaac
01-10-2006, 09:23 PM
Well, he needed Foster in when Brian Cook came in, because there is no way he could guard Cook out on the perimiter.

SoupIsGood
01-10-2006, 09:25 PM
Well, he needed Foster in when Brian Cook came in, because there is no way he could guard Cook out on the perimiter.

There is also no way Cook could guard David in the post, but as usual Rick wasn't concerned with that. :banghead:

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 11:02 AM
Well, he needed Foster in when Brian Cook came in, because there is no way he could guard Cook out on the perimiter.

Why should we "play down" to Brian Cook when there's no way the Lakers could "play up" to us?

There's a phrase for that: "Bad Coaching."

ABADays
01-11-2006, 11:07 AM
:whistle:

Soup, you have violated international copyright laws using the Jonathan Bender response icon. Please cease and desist.

Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 11:33 AM
Why should we "play down" to Brian Cook when there's no way the Lakers could "play up" to us?

There's a phrase for that: "Bad Coaching."

No it isn't bad coaching. At least it isn't always bad coaching. Is it bad coaching when the Pacers play Pollard against Shaq or Harrison against Shaq. Or is it only bad coaching when the coach goes small.

Each case has to be looked at individually. But changing your lineup based upon who the other team has in the game is not always a bad thing.

Jermaniac
01-11-2006, 11:38 AM
How come a team always keeps the same lineup against us and we always change? And people wonder why we never have the same lineup for more then 2 games and have no chemistry on the court. Why cant we force teams to change their line up for us.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 11:51 AM
No it isn't bad coaching. At least it isn't always bad coaching. Is it bad coaching when the Pacers play Pollard against Shaq or Harrison against Shaq. Or is it only bad coaching when the coach goes small.

Each case has to be looked at individually. But changing your lineup based upon who the other team has in the game is not always a bad thing.

The difference is, against Shaq (and a handful of other notable exceptions) the other team clearly has the advantage.

We're talking little Brian Cook vs. BIG David Harrison here. And we went small (and mitigated the advantage David could - AND WAS - giving us) to match up with Brian Cook. Why? What's he done? The Lakers needed a stong dose of David that night.

Yes, there are times when matching up to the other team is the right thing to do. Shaq. Iverson. Etc. But more often than not, forcing them to match up to our strengths is a far better strategy.

And with David, playing "big" is usually a strength for the Pacers. We aren't even very good at playing small-ball. WHY?? Why would we do this to ourselves?? Why did we let Phil Jackson dictate that we'd play small? For as stubborn as he can be, Rick sure 'caves in' at all the wrong times.

Bball
01-11-2006, 12:22 PM
The difference is, against Shaq (and a handful of other notable exceptions) the other team clearly has the advantage.

We're talking little Brian Cook vs. BIG David Harrison here. And we went small (and mitigated the advantage David could - AND WAS - giving us) to match up with Brian Cook. Why? What's he done? The Lakers needed a stong dose of David that night.

Yes, there are times when matching up to the other team is the right thing to do. Shaq. Iverson. Etc. But more often than not, forcing them to match up to our strengths is a far better strategy.

And with David, playing "big" is usually a strength for the Pacers. We aren't even very good at playing small-ball. WHY?? Why would we do this to ourselves?? Why did we let Phil Jackson dictate that we'd play small? For as stubborn as he can be, Rick sure 'caves in' at all the wrong times.


Maybe he's been talking to Isiah for some tips? Isiah was the king of always trying to matchup with the other guy no matter what. "Hey, they're putting their scrub in.... I gotta put our scrub on him!"

-Bball

able
01-11-2006, 12:35 PM
Well, though I was hoping for Peck's usual deposit in the "thoughts" department, there is no post from him so let's use this one :D

Jay, do you happen to agree with me that the first 8 minutes of the game and sporadic thereafter (for a grand total of 5 more minutes) it looked like we had a real frontcourt?

And if so, do you think that the line-up is better then anything else we can muster there at this moment in time?

Finally; do you also fear that tonight will be either (or and/or) Cro - Foster again?

I can only say that when David sat down, our frontcourt threat went out of the window, 2 missed lay-ups was all that was needed to leave Jeff alone in there and concentrate on JO again.

Give that front court with DG, DH and JO a chance for 5 games or so, let's see, I'm ready to bet the farm that is our best line-up in the front court, heck it even made AJ look half decent.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 12:41 PM
What I said at Pizza King the other night was that it was crucial, IMO, that David gets his minutes with JO (and Danny.) First of all, JO needs David to absorb some of the physical beating. Secondly, not many teams have a legit "C" as a backup, so let's avoid the whole mis-match discussion that we're having here and put David out there against the first unit.

Some nights, it might not work. But every minute of experiece David gets means we are one minute closer to being a legit contender with a legit big man.

And yes, I'm certain that Rick will bench David as soon as he can start somebody else he likes better.

Slick Pinkham
01-11-2006, 12:44 PM
And yes, I'm certain that Rick will bench David as soon as he can start somebody else who works harder and understands just what to do on the baketball court.

I fixed that quote for you, Jay.

;)

PacerMan
01-11-2006, 01:02 PM
What I said at Pizza King the other night was that it was crucial, IMO, that David gets his minutes with JO (and Danny.) First of all, JO needs David to absorb some of the physical beating. Secondly, not many teams have a legit "C" as a backup, so let's avoid the whole mis-match discussion that we're having here and put David out there against the first unit.

Some nights, it might not work. But every minute of experiece David gets means we are one minute closer to being a legit contender with a legit big man.

And yes, I'm certain that Rick will bench David as soon as he can start somebody else he likes better.

I agree with you here with the lineups and what David changes for us. But do you honestly think that a PROFESSIONAL coach of any sport is going to play favorites over who they think will give them the best chance to win???????? They do get fired pretty regularly you know...........

He's down on Davod for stuff David does. Or doesn't do. You don't give ANYBODY a chance (minutes) when they aren't hustling 100%. When they don't block out (Unless you average 20/10 like Jermaine). IF he's not in great shape because he's not working hard enough in practice and conditioning then that's HIS fault. No worthwhile coach is going to tolerate that and reward it with increased PT.
THis isn't some 10 year vet, this is a KID that is LEARNING what it takes and how to play the game at this level. He's teaching the kid a lesson that lots of newbies have to learn.
WHen he's gotten the message, he'll play. SEEMS like that might be happening now.

Los Angeles
01-11-2006, 01:22 PM
who works harder and understands just what to do on the baketball court.
Wait a minute.

Beyond his draft scouting report, where have we heard that Harrison is not a hard worker? This goes right up there with the Harrison foul myth. It's a stereotype, without much foundation in truth.

There's a cliche in business: "We work smarter, not harder." I agree that Harrison does not have all the tools and reactions of an All-Star center. But where is he supposed to learn this stuff?

From his coaches? - not one was an NBA big man.

From a Big-man specialist? - we haven't bothered to bring one in.

During an off-season camp? - Harrison was still recovering from injury this summer.

From his teammates? That not working. It's pretty clear to me that Harrison is emmulating and trying to learn from JO only without the necessary timing. It seems that every time Harrison is yanked off the court, it is because a simple pump fake gets him off his feet. O'Neal has an uncanny sense of when to jump and when not to. Harrison does not possess that gift. Plus, look at Harrison's post game early in the season - who did it remind you of? O'Neal.

From scrimmage? How do you learn to properly defend the centers of the league when you're scrimmaging Foster and Croshere? One has no outside game and few play calls, the other hangs out on the perimiter.

Again - where is Harrison supposed to learn to do the right things on the basketball court? ANSWER: during the games, because the Pacers have given him no other option or opportunities.

Slick Pinkham
01-11-2006, 01:40 PM
I imagine that David spends almost all of his time at every practice trying to guard Jermaine and then trying to do something offensively against Jermaine. Pollard and Foster have been hurt and apparently rarely practice.

I would think that regular practice against one of the top 5 post players in the league would help you develop.

Apparently regular practice against Jermaine has at least convinced Rick that DH can play some when every other option is at far less than 100%. It probably hasn't helped him convince anyone but a few diehards on this board that DH is anything but a servicable backup anytime in the next year or so. If you are ready to throw away this season now, then give your young and very rough-around-the-edges player all the minutes he can handle. Otherwise, limit his minutes to the amount that helps you win games now.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 01:42 PM
We did spend a decent amount of time at Pizza King the other night discussing that David has no big-man coach. And he probably wasn't well-coached -as a big man - in college. I don't know that for sure but Colorado is certainly not a "center" factory or a basketball hotbed.

Problem is, there aren't many options out there for getting David better coaching.

But were aren't talking about a perimeter player here. We're talking about David learning to play a position that is really only learned by meaningful court time. This isn't an intellectual exercise, its a physical one. Learn how to keep your position while staying out of foul trouble. Now go do it...

able
01-11-2006, 01:57 PM
I imagine that David spends almost all of his time at every practice trying to guard Jermaine and then trying to do something offensively against Jermaine. Pollard and Foster have been hurt and apparently rarely practice.

I would think that regular practice against one of the top 5 post players in the league would help you develop.

Apparently regular practice against Jermaine has at least convinced Rick that DH can play some when every other option is at far less than 100%. It probably hasn't helped him convince anyone but a few diehards on this board that DH is anything but a servicable backup anytime in the next year or so. If you are ready to throw away this season now, then give your young and very rough-around-the-edges player all the minutes he can handle. Otherwise, limit his minutes to the amount that helps you win games now.


Either you have not seen the game, or any game he played or even worse, only the game he got yanked to quickly.

What he did against the Lakers was a lot more then becominga servicable backup center.

Slick Pinkham
01-11-2006, 02:15 PM
Either you have not seen the game, or any game he played or even worse, only the game he got yanked to quickly.

What he did against the Lakers was a lot more then becominga servicable backup center.

The Lakers game was one of the few that I have missed this year.

Maybe I missed his breakout performance. Or maybe it was an aberration, like the few good games that even Bruno Sundov put together about 5 years ago.

I don't think David is a bad prospect. I'm just not convinced that he is capable of being an impact player on any regular basis anytime soon.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 02:33 PM
Here's how we guarantee that you're right... put him on the end of the bench to rot.

If you'd like to be wrong, you've got to give him a chance.

What's the worst that could happen if he's given a chance in January and February? That he continues to get into foul trouble and we still have to play the other guys.

In the 61-win season, Foster still only averaged 20 mpg. He started for that team (at PF) because a Ron-Al-JO starting frontcourt was just too small. With Al gone, we've seen Foster's minutes (when healthy) balloon and that's not good for the team, either. There are minutes available and David should get them.

And if he doesn't improve at all over the next eight weeks, (early March) then I'm okay with sitting him down then. I believe if he's given a chance to earn minutes that he will indeed earn a spot in the rotation/ starting lineup.

Bball
01-11-2006, 02:52 PM
What I said at Pizza King the other night was that it was crucial, IMO, that David gets his minutes with JO (and Danny.) First of all, JO needs David to absorb some of the physical beating. Secondly, not many teams have a legit "C" as a backup, so let's avoid the whole mis-match discussion that we're having here and put David out there against the first unit.



You know... for better or worse we do have a legit center as a B/U. This guy named "Pollard".

What if we backup David with Pollard and continue to stay 'big' the whole game? ...at least until we are forced to leave that behind.

Pollard says he's feeling better than ever... and according to what we've read (and seen for that matter) it was a myth that he was being 'saved' for health reasons to play against other bigs anyway.

But what do I know? Why try that when we're such a powerhouse with Foster in there anyway?

-Bball

Moses
01-11-2006, 02:58 PM
Is Rick convinced David can get good minutes?
No

Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 03:27 PM
I said after the game against the Lakers that Harrison had his best game of the season, and I clearly thought it was his best game of the season. But it's all relative, for the most part he has looked terrible this season.

CableKC
01-11-2006, 03:32 PM
Should we hold his hand when he has to pee-pee too?
I heard that it worked with Ewing when he started out with the Knicks. :laugh:

CableKC
01-11-2006, 03:33 PM
With the way that Foster has been playing...I wouldn't be surprised if Foster makes his way back into the starting lineup......soon. Although its better to have Harrison get his minutes so that he can develop.....I can see Carlisle falling back on players that are in his comfortzone.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 03:37 PM
I said after the game against the Lakers that Harrison had his best game of the season, and I clearly thought it was his best game of the season. But it's all relative, for the most part he has looked terrible this season.

Even if David looks terrible on an individual basis, you've got to give him credit for the thing that can't be measured - his physical presence makes it easier for the other four guys to do their things. That's what be brings. Its not individual points or rebounds. David doesn't need the ball to make a huge difference in how the game is played.

If you're looking at David's individual game or stats, of course you're always going to be disappointed by him. Rebounding in particular, and its a shame because he's always too busy holding off three opponents while letting one of his teammates chase down the ball. Shame on him for helping the team that way.

Look how many first-quarter layups ANTHONY JOHNSON has been able to get over the past week or so.

Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 03:52 PM
Even if David looks terrible on an individual basis, you've got to give him credit for the thing that can't be measured - his physical presence makes it easier for the other four guys to do their things. That's what be brings. Its not individual points or rebounds. David doesn't need the ball to make a huge difference in how the game is played.

If you're looking at David's individual game or stats, of course you're always going to be disappointed by him. Rebounding in particular, and its a shame because he's always too busy holding off three opponents while letting one of his teammates chase down the ball. Shame on him for helping the team that way.

Look how many first-quarter layups ANTHONY JOHNSON has been able to get over the past week or so.


Jay, I never judge players by their stats. I don't care how many points he scores or rebounds he gets. I care about his overall impact he has on winning. And for the first time this season I thought DH had an overall positive impact. Yes I realize the Pacers lost but I thought DH helped the pacers.

Yes I see the little things that a player of DH's stature can bring

dryles
01-11-2006, 04:09 PM
Like a few others on here, I'd like to see Rick put him out there in the regular rotation until he fouls out. I've never understood the philosophy that when guy gets 4 fouls he sits. They're allowed 6, use 'em all.
Of course, the opponent gets more free throws, but most teams bigs are lousy at them anyway. It's not like there's anybody playing well enough to keep him out of the line-up....my 2cents...

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 04:54 PM
Jay, I never judge players by their stats. I don't care how many points he scores or rebounds he gets. I care about his overall impact he has on winning. And for the first time this season I thought DH had an overall positive impact. Yes I realize the Pacers lost but I thought DH helped the pacers.

Yes I see the little things that a player of DH's stature can bring

Then how has he looked terrible this season?

Other than the foul situation, of course?

I didn't see anything from him in the Laker game that was different than we've been seeing from him this season.

Kegboy
01-11-2006, 05:08 PM
Problem is, there aren't many options out there for getting David better coaching.

What's Tree Rollins up to? And yes, I'm serious.

ChicagoJ
01-11-2006, 05:26 PM
That was a name we discussed.

Also, Dave Cowens.

Slick Pinkham
01-11-2006, 05:40 PM
A few years ago Bill Walton worked with Jermaine, Jeff, and Bruno Sundov.

Or maybe Walton just brought some weed and Greatful Dead CDs and they all sat around in a small circle.

DG-33
01-11-2006, 05:45 PM
David Harrison certainly has the size to be an impact player. And really, although he could stand to drop 10-15 pounds, he's not fat. He's just a very big sturdy man. He's well worth investing the playing time in, provided he has a good attitude.

PacerMan
01-11-2006, 09:56 PM
Wait a minute.

Beyond his draft scouting report, where have we heard that Harrison is not a hard worker? This goes right up there with the Harrison foul myth. It's a stereotype, without much foundation in truth.

There's a cliche in business: "We work smarter, not harder." I agree that Harrison does not have all the tools and reactions of an All-Star center. But where is he supposed to learn this stuff?

From his coaches? - not one was an NBA big man.

From a Big-man specialist? - we haven't bothered to bring one in.

During an off-season camp? - Harrison was still recovering from injury this summer.

From his teammates? That not working. It's pretty clear to me that Harrison is emmulating and trying to learn from JO only without the necessary timing. It seems that every time Harrison is yanked off the court, it is because a simple pump fake gets him off his feet. O'Neal has an uncanny sense of when to jump and when not to. Harrison does not possess that gift. Plus, look at Harrison's post game early in the season - who did it remind you of? O'Neal.

From scrimmage? How do you learn to properly defend the centers of the league when you're scrimmaging Foster and Croshere? One has no outside game and few play calls, the other hangs out on the perimiter.

Again - where is Harrison supposed to learn to do the right things on the basketball court? ANSWER: during the games, because the Pacers have given him no other option or opportunities.

He had DD last year.

SoupIsGood
01-11-2006, 10:01 PM
David still started with all of our big men healthy. Good to see.

Los Angeles
01-11-2006, 10:01 PM
He had DD last year.
He was injured when DD was here.

BlueNGold
01-11-2006, 10:30 PM
David still started with all of our big men healthy. Good to see.
That was a good sign. If DH can reduce fouls a bit more and continue improving his defensive positioning and rebounding, he should be our starting C going forward. Offense seems to come pretty natural for him and should improve just with game experience...so that is less of a concern One thing I have noticed in the last several games is that he is doing a better job blocking out and going up to rebound the ball on defense. He is still picking up fouls, but not quite as quickly as in November. It appears they are working on the basics with him and he is responding somewhat.

Hicks
01-11-2006, 10:45 PM
I really hope Rick continues to play him like he has the past 6 games. It's good for David, and it's good for the team.

SoupIsGood
01-11-2006, 11:18 PM
Harrison/Foster
O'Neal/Croshere

I really like this rotation of big men. Three guys who offer three different skillsets that can play alongside JO. I don't want our big men changed at all. Those four plus Pollard will work. We need to look at our guards IMO.