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View Full Version : Time for full-scale rebuilding?



TheLemonSong
01-10-2006, 12:20 PM
The terms I heard this past offseason were words like "retooling" and "upgrading." Conrad Brunner, for example, assured fans everywhere that the Pacers were making the best move by not making big moves.

Has the time come to just dismantle and rebuild entirely?

It seems to me that we have only a few decent pieces...
Jermaine O'Neal is an All-Star we can build around, and Jasikevicius was a great pickup so he'll stay without a doubt. Additionally we have two solid youngsters in DH (as much as he frustrates me) and certainly Granger.

Beyond those four players, who is worth keeping?
JT= never plays; no consistency
Jack= not a team player
Ron= no brainer
Bender= should retire
Foster= offensive liability; also injury prone
Pollard= big body, no skill
Fred Jones= possible keeper? otherwise tradebait
AJ= solid backup, possible keeper but getting well past his prime
Gill= throw-in
Austin= big contract, been shopped for years; likely keeper

Considering the current roster and the fact that we're not really competing for a Championship, why not just salvage the season as best as possible and then make some MAJOR off-season changes..? One issue I see with this is that there arent any great free-agents upcoming, but a few big trades might be the only thing we can do to get back to elite status...

What do y'all think?

Bball
01-10-2006, 12:29 PM
Barring a significant change in the front office, it wouldn't matter what kind of FA's were on the market. Walsh doesn't typically spend money on FA's. That's why the pursuit of Sarunas was a surprise.

Our FA acquisitions are vet minimum guys... not franchise cornerstones....

I think Pollard could probably be of more use to us than the minutes he's getting would suggest. He's a servicable center. I don't know that we use him effectively. But come next year, he won't be here anyway.

FJ will be a FA next summer and I have my doubts he's in the plans either.

This year was our last shot with the team we had, and it apparently wasn't much of a shot truth be told. Now it is even less. Unless the pieces start coming together quickly I don't know that there is much choice but to rebuild.

I take that back... We must be patient.

-Bball

ahhteeth
01-10-2006, 12:38 PM
If we are gonna start rebuilding, why not send JO to the Raptors for Bosh. Similar players but we just get younger.

blanket
01-10-2006, 12:44 PM
If we are gonna start rebuilding, why not send JO to the Raptors for Bosh. Similar players but we just get younger.

I think that's a very real possibility over the summer, IF...

1) DW and Bird decide that it's time to do a quick, competitive rebuild like they did in 2000

2) Toronto realizes that Bosh doesn't want to stay

3) The Pacers get assurances from Bosh and his agent that he will sign an extension with the team

PacerMan
01-10-2006, 12:46 PM
This is still a GOOD team when we get something back for mental.

blanket
01-10-2006, 12:51 PM
I don't see Walsh EVER doing a full scale rebuild of the team, but trading Artest for young players who've shown a lot of promise -- while also shedding the contracts of Pollard, Bender, Miller, and soon Croshere -- is a step in the right direction.

Now, trading Artest is a given. The REAL question is what will DW/LB decide to do with the team this summer? There are a lot directions they could go, and it will likely mean some new faces on the team and some familiar ones out the door, but I don't see a full scale rebuild -- on the order of what the Hawks are doing now and what the Nugs and Bulls did a few years back -- anywhere on the horizon.

Harddrive7
01-10-2006, 01:14 PM
Bird has been doing a lot of scouting over seas so it seems. I wonder if he's ready to take this team in another direction. I wonder if Walsh would let him?

It seems that the players overseas play fundamental basketball, something that is unheard of here in the states. I just wonder if he's looking to go in that direction?

blanket
01-10-2006, 01:22 PM
Bird has been doing a lot of scouting over seas so it seems. I wonder if he's ready to take this team in another direction.

You mean like relocating the team to China?!! :eek:
;)

Unclebuck
01-10-2006, 01:33 PM
What rebuilding means to me: It is starting from scratch, it is completely starting over. When I think of rebuilding I think the Bulls after 1998. Tearing down, cleaning out and starting over is rebuilding.

Making 2 or 3 trades, trading away 6 or 7 players and receiving 6 or 7 new players is not rebuilding. Rebuilding means that you don't care about the record for a few seasons.

Really rebuilding is rarely done these days. Pacers will not and should not rebuild

With 2 or 3 smart trades the Pacers will be back to a 55 win team next season

TheLemonSong
01-10-2006, 01:38 PM
With 2 or 3 smart trades the Pacers will be back to a 55 win team next season

See, I'd love to think that same thing...but let's be real...the East is getting stronger and stronger with few signs of letting up. Other teams are getting more competitive around us and we're remaining relatively stagnant.

I think many of you have interpreted "rebuilding" to mean "dismantling" (just a symantical difference). So allow me to clarify. I think the Pacers need to make 2-3 big trades and maybe sign a free agent. I think we need to move toward younger players and proven role players.

CableKC
01-10-2006, 07:27 PM
I think that we can retool ( not rebuild ) the team with the existing pieces that we have ( like a good core of JONeal/Sarunas/Granger/Freddie/Foster/Harrison/Croshere ) and still remain competitive for the next couple of years. Its not far fetched to make at least 2 to 3 trades for some good prospects that can fill the remaining weakness between now and the start of the 2006 regular season.

TheLemonSong
01-10-2006, 08:07 PM
I think that we can retool ( not rebuild ) the team with the existing pieces that we have ( like a good core of JONeal/Sarunas/Granger/Freddie/Foster/Harrison/Croshere ) and still remain competitive for the next couple of years. Its not far fetched to make at least 2 to 3 trades for some good prospects that can fill the remaining weakness between now and the start of the 2006 regular season.

The problem is that we have to "keep up" with the rising strength of the East.

BlueNGold
01-10-2006, 08:09 PM
I could go either way. A few pieces could be moved on this team and we could be contending once again. For example, if we could pick up Paul Pierce in a multi-team trade for Jax and Artest, we would have a shot because it would provide another legitimate all-star to the roster as a second option...particularly since he is an outside threat...with JO as an inside threat. Otherwise, we probably should consider rebuilding.

If we rebuild, Bosh would be a great centerpiece. We have many assets to pick up excellent young talent to put around him. Only Granger is a keeper in any full scale rebuild.

Julius Sour
01-11-2006, 02:45 AM
patience.

Bball
01-11-2006, 04:35 AM
What rebuilding means to me: It is starting from scratch, it is completely starting over. When I think of rebuilding I think the Bulls after 1998. Tearing down, cleaning out and starting over is rebuilding.

Making 2 or 3 trades, trading away 6 or 7 players and receiving 6 or 7 new players is not rebuilding. Rebuilding means that you don't care about the record for a few seasons.

Really rebuilding is rarely done these days. Pacers will not and should not rebuild

With 2 or 3 smart trades the Pacers will be back to a 55 win team next season

I meant what Uncle Buck has just explained. I don't think we need to wipe the slate completely clean and start at zero.

OTOH, I think we need to commit to the process and not do it half-way either. No more crossing fingers, looking the other way, pretending, etc.. Do what needs to be done. Non-team players need not apply.

Once the Artest situation comes into complete focus we should plan accordingly. Barring an absolutely wonderful surprise trade, it's time to plug the dike and rethink the team.

-Bball

Unclebuck
01-11-2006, 08:49 AM
I read that the east is rising. Is it really.

Two playoff teams from last year, the Bulls and the Wizards stink this season. Shaq becomes more injury prone every day and he just isn't the all dominating threat he once was.

The Bucks are better this season, but they don't scare anyone. They've won a number of games this season already "at the buzzer". They aren't anything more than a 45 win, lose in the first round type of team.

The Cavs have Lebron James, but they are still in flux as they are trying to trade two starters, Snow and Gooden. They aren't that good.

Anytime you have Iverson and a healthy Webber you are going to have a good team, but they aren't that great.

Certainly the Pistons are rock solid and they aren't going anywhere.

Nets are playing extremely well.

The east is better than it was a few seasons ago, but the Pacers don't need to fear anyone in their re-tooling process.

NPFII
01-11-2006, 10:17 AM
I read that the east is rising. Is it really.

Two playoff teams from last year, the Bulls and the Wizards stink this season. Shaq becomes more injury prone every day and he just isn't the all dominating threat he once was.

The Bucks are better this season, but they don't scare anyone. They've won a number of games this season already "at the buzzer". They aren't anything more than a 45 win, lose in the first round type of team.

The Cavs have Lebron James, but they are still in flux as they are trying to trade two starters, Snow and Gooden. They aren't that good.

Anytime you have Iverson and a healthy Webber you are going to have a good team, but they aren't that great.

Certainly the Pistons are rock solid and they aren't going anywhere.

Nets are playing extremely well.

The east is better than it was a few seasons ago, but the Pacers don't need to fear anyone in their re-tooling process.

That's actually a key factor.

The current team - without Artest and even without Tinsley is more than capable of reaching the playoffs without the "re-tooling" (I dont know why - I dont like the sound of that word...).

So basically any trade will only make us better either when its done or in the longer run.


Personally I have a gut feeling which says 2 things:
1. DW wants Richard Jefferson for whatever it takes except JO, Granger & Sarunas (& Artest who will have to go to a West team).
2. Bird is in love with European basketball. We can anticipate another FA Euro move next year, and maybe an assistant head coach from Europe.

PacerMan
01-11-2006, 01:19 PM
That's actually a key factor.

The current team - without Artest and even without Tinsley is more than capable of reaching the playoffs without the "re-tooling" (I dont know why - I dont like the sound of that word...).

So basically any trade will only make us better either when its done or in the longer run.


Personally I have a gut feeling which says 2 things:
1. DW wants Richard Jefferson for whatever it takes except JO, Granger & Sarunas (& Artest who will have to go to a West team).
2. Bird is in love with European basketball. We can anticipate another FA Euro move next year, and maybe an assistant head coach from Europe.

Bird is in love with the euro STYLE of play. Which is nothing more than the way things USED to be here. Like when HE played..... :) It's just good old fashioned team basketball. The way some of us prefer to watch it..

CableKC
01-11-2006, 01:29 PM
The problem is that we have to "keep up" with the rising strength of the East.
Any retooling/rebuilding plan won't immediately get us back into contention next season. At best...the core of players that I mentioned can make us a playoff bubble team. But my hope is that with 2 trades involving Artest, SJax, Pollard and ( likely ) either Tinsley or AJ....that we can get some decent young prospects back to fill the remaining needs of the team and to build us back into contenders in the next 2 seasons. Championship teams and Contenders aren't built overnight....they are built over the span of a couple of years with smart moves.

sweabs
01-11-2006, 01:43 PM
The simple fact of the matter is we could never beat San Antonio or Detroit in a 7 game playoff sereis with our current team (in my opinion). I think most would agree with me.

And in the long run, the goal is to win the championship. Obviously we can't do that with the current makeup of this team, which is why I'm open to making some changes in certain areas. We're not striving for mediocrity - we are striving to win a championship.

I think it's time we take a new approach with this team. The team right now, as currently assembled, was built around the foundation of JO and Ron. Take Ron out of the equation and it no longer makes sense. I think we have some great pieces to start looking in another direction.

Mourning
01-11-2006, 05:04 PM
The simple fact of the matter is we could never beat San Antonio or Detroit in a 7 game playoff sereis with our current team (in my opinion). I think most would agree with me.

And in the long run, the goal is to win the championship. Obviously we can't do that with the current makeup of this team, which is why I'm open to making some changes in certain areas. We're not striving for mediocrity - we are striving to win a championship.

I think it's time we take a new approach with this team. The team right now, as currently assembled, was built around the foundation of JO and Ron. Take Ron out of the equation and it no longer makes sense. I think we have some great pieces to start looking in another direction.

100% aggree!