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View Full Version : Who is a more valuable defender, Artest or Ben Wallace



Unclebuck
04-01-2004, 04:28 PM
Before you answer, I have a few questions for you.

Who is a better defender, Ron or Ben?

Who is a more valuable defender, Ron or Ben?


The question that I am really interested in discussing is this. And of you want or can leave Ronnie and Ben out of the discssion and just talk in general terms, please do so.

What is more valuable: 1) a great wing defender, who controls the great scoring small forwards and shooting guards, or a great inside help defender who controls the paint.

2) What is more difficult?

3) What takes more defensive talent?

4) If you could choose one or the other which would you choose.



I'll answer later. I don't think the answer is the same to each and every question.

Shade
04-01-2004, 04:31 PM
In strict terms of defense, I would take Ben. Him and JO in the frontcourt would be damn near impenetrable.

But when you factor in Ron's offense, we have the better overall player.

MSA2CF
04-01-2004, 04:34 PM
Who is a better defender, Ron or Ben?
Defender is the key word--Ron.
Who is a more valuable defender, Ron or Ben?
Ron is more valuable because of his versatility in being able to guard almost every position on the court.
What is more valuable: 1) a great wing defender, who controls the great scoring small forwards and shooting guards, or a great inside help defender who controls the paint.
Defender who controls the paint nowadays because of the increase in weak fundamental players--players nowadays are all about dunks and not shooting, so if you take away the inside presence, they'd be forced to take the outside shot--lower %.
2) What is more difficult?
To guard in the paint
3) What takes more defensive talent?
To guard on the wing
4) If you could choose one or the other which would you choose.
Which player? I would choose Ronnie, simply because of his outstanding singing ability.

ChicagoJ
04-01-2004, 04:40 PM
When we talk in terms of "Value", we have to consider the components of the team already in place.

Because the Pacers already have a pretty good post defender and weak side defender all rolled into one in Jermaine, Ben Wallace wouldn't be *much* of an upgrade. (And one could argue that he isn't even an upgrade at all.) Ron's more valuable to this incarnation of the Pacers.

But UB, let's go back twelve years. Who, in theory, would help the defensively-challenged Bo Hill-era Pacers more?

I think Ben would. I think that's where you've got to start - by controlling the paint and the glass first and worrying about the perimeter later.

Ron's ability to lockdown a guy one-on-one would be for naught if Rik Smits were still "policing" the paint.

Arcadian
04-01-2004, 04:59 PM
If the question were who is most valuable Bowen or Ratliff to a defense my guess the overwelming magority would say Ratliff.

Answering the question which is more important an swing man or big man to a defense I would say the Big man.

Answering who is better or more vaulable Wallace or Artest I will hedge my answer a little and say: by princible I pick Wallace but what Artest has done at his position is more impressive. So impressive in fact Ron is reinventing the role of defensive stopper and what a swing man can and cannot do on defense.

Tim
04-01-2004, 05:15 PM
Ben isn't going to bother a Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Finley, Wally, Houston, Vince and others jumper. Ron will dog these guys all over the court.

If Rick is working the phones and people are listening to the research the Pacers have done then Ron gets DPOY.

Unclebuck
04-01-2004, 05:15 PM
All great responses so far. This is why this forum is the best.

I think doing what Ron does is harder work, and is more difficult. But on the other hand, I can't argue that maybe Ben's defense has a greater effect on the game.


I think Ronnie is a better defender, but I am not sure he is more valuable than Ben.

Although, the fact that Ron can guard people with very little help allows the other 4 defenders to play straight up, and that makes the defense so much better.

dipperdunk
04-01-2004, 05:16 PM
Who is a better defender, Ron or Ben?
ron

Who is a more valuable defender, Ron or Ben?
ben


What is more valuable: 1) a great wing defender, who controls the great scoring small forwards and shooting guards, or a great inside help defender who controls the paint.

Great inside help defender. Why? A wing defender can only lock down and guard his man whereas a great inside player can make up for other defenders mistakes and give help on everybodys man. Also a great inside man enables your guards to take more chances and cause turnovers plus you can full court press more willingly when you know you have a shot blocker back there as a last resort. Plus that presence can alter shots and cause the other team to settle for jump shots instead of taking it to the hole and if your shooting jumpers then your going to shoot a much lower percentage. The 76ers still have a great perimeter defender in Snow but when they lossed Theo it totally changed their defense for the worse.


2) What is more difficult? wing

3) What takes more defensive talent? Wing guy because it takes incredible feet,lateral quickness and great hands.

4) If you could choose one or the other which would you choose.
Inside defensive player. Because its proven to be a successful strategy starting as far back as Bill Russell.

Unclebuck
04-01-2004, 05:24 PM
This thread should be sent to every person who votes for the DPOY

ChicagoJ
04-01-2004, 07:28 PM
Can there be any doubt?

Even Rip is a better defender than that Artest punk. If the refs just called 10% of his fouls he'd be out of every game by the end of the first quarter.

:borg:

ROCislandWarrior
04-01-2004, 07:34 PM
Can there be any doubt?

Even Rip is a better defender than that Artest punk. If the refs just called 10% of his fouls he'd be out of every game by the end of the first quarter.

:borg:

couldn't agree more...

The name of this thread should be changed to

"who is the better fouler"

tdeltdot
04-03-2004, 12:33 AM
Ben isn't going to bother a Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Finley, Wally, Houston, Vince and others jumper. Ron will dog these guys all over the court.

If Rick is working the phones and people are listening to the research the Pacers have done then Ron gets DPOY.

I'm really beginning to question that research (i.e. the article from Indystar that had opponents only scoring 8.4 ppg against Ron). That really seems near impossible. Watching the game tonight, Vince scored at least 14-15 points while Ron was covering him. Lebron is averaging 24.5 points against he Pacers this year. A good chunk of those points have to be while Ron is covering him. McGrady is averaging 32 points against. These numbers have to massively inflate the times when he shuts someone down completely - like he did with Sprewell. How could the average possibly be a mere 8.4 points against?

I'm a little suspicious as to what qualifies as a score against Ron. If there's a double-team who gets the (dis)credit? If it's a jumper off a screen, and there are two guys near the shooter, who gets (dis)credit? Do foul-shots count? etc. One would hope that every bucket counts against a single Pacer, but that actually seems like a nearly impossible statistic to determine, given the ambiguity of a lot of plays.

I know we'd all like to believe the numbers, but they seem a little improbable. And considering the source of the data, I think that it's fair to question just how accurate the numbers are.

Also: did Ron even cover Redd in the past two Pacers/Bucks games? I thought he was on Kukoc...

Peck
04-03-2004, 04:42 AM
All great responses so far. This is why this forum is the best.

I think doing what Ron does is harder work, and is more difficult. But on the other hand, I can't argue that maybe Ben's defense has a greater effect on the game.


I think Ronnie is a better defender, but I am not sure he is more valuable than Ben.

Although, the fact that Ron can guard people with very little help allows the other 4 defenders to play straight up, and that makes the defense so much better.

Sorry, but this has all of the credibility of me being involved in a Dale Davis vs. Antonio Davis debate.

Was there even one person who questioned who you thought was better when you posted this? ;)

On the other hand I'll say this.

I think they are about equal. Ron is better on the wing & Ben is better in the post.

However, Ron can guard the post & I've seen Ben guard the wings & both do quite well.

Ron is a better scorer, Ben is a better rebounder.

Like I said, it about equals out.

But push comes to shove & I have to choose?

Ben is the two time defending champ for a reason, so for now I'd have to stick with him. But I think Ron will win it this year.

MagicRat
04-06-2004, 05:07 PM
This thread should be sent to every person who votes for the DPOY

Boyle stated during Sunday's game that he has a vote and he's voting for Ron......

Liquid Slap
04-06-2004, 05:56 PM
This question can be taken different ways. Because the Pacers inside defense is just average. So having Artest is invaluable because he can keep people outside the paint and harass the hell out of people.

Pistons can't really defend outside(unless you put in the dynamic duo, Mike James and Lindsey Hunter to shut down shop.) as well so they need Ben down low for cleanup.

So each player is invaluable to their respective teams.

I would say it's harder to do Ron's job just because of how much running he has to do to keep constant pressure. That has got to be tiring.

Which one I would choose would solely fall on what type of team I have.