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diamonddave00
12-19-2005, 10:14 AM
Hearing in rumored 3 way trade , that the Pacers want Earl Watson and would send Scot Pollard's expiring contract and Fred Jones to the Hawks and keep Watson.

So the Hawks would end up with Nene , Fred Jones and Scot Pollard for Harrington.

Pacers would get Harrington and Watson for Artest , Pollard and Jones

Nuggets get Ron for Nene and Watson

If this occurs guess Johnson is odd man out again? Apparently Watson's good play of late has again caught Donnie's attention. Sarunas would be 3rd point and either starter or backup at sg? Jackson splits between sg/sf?

Watson would give quickness and defense as Tinsley's backup . Would keep pressure on Jamaal to stay healthy or motivated. Watson is well paid long term could it mean Tinsley and / or Jackson is moved later if attitude problems continue?

Diamond Dave
12-19-2005, 10:17 AM
Done.

And more done.

Unclebuck
12-19-2005, 10:24 AM
Yes I would do that. Watson is an excellent backup and just the type of backup we need. He also can start when Tinsley gets injured or sick.

Hicks
12-19-2005, 10:29 AM
I'd live with it, though I'll miss Freddy. Not as much as I would have if he'd been traded last year, but I like the guy.

My question is, what the hell is up with our PGs? Are we really planning on wasting part of Sarunas' game by not letting him ever play 1? Is Tinsley or AJ going to be traded soon? Inquiring minds want to know.

beast23
12-19-2005, 10:30 AM
I don't think this deal is practical as it now stands.

I don't see us making a trade bringing in a PG without sending one away any more than I would see us trading one of Tinsley, Saras and AJ without bring a PG back in return.

Only way this would get done would be if there would be a 2nd trade following this one up almost immediately.

Harmonica
12-19-2005, 10:33 AM
My question is, what the hell is up with our PGs? Are we really planning on wasting part of Sarunas' game by not letting him ever play 1? Is Tinsley or AJ going to be traded soon? Inquiring minds want to know.

That's the first thing that crossed my mind as well. But I still have a feeling that Tinsley will be traded; probably not now, but either by the deadline or in the off-season. I imagine TPTB are hedging a little with him, trying to get a good run out of him without any injuries to boost his trade value.

Jose Slaughter
12-19-2005, 10:34 AM
I don't care for that deal at all.

I don't like Harrington added to the team as it stands now.

Watson makes 5 point guards & yes I know there would almost have to be another trade but nothing of it is mentioned in connection with this deal.

Artest & Pollard are non-factors are on team so I don't view either as much of a loss. I like Jones but he isn't a deal breaker either.

All in all I'd pass on this. I just think Harrington & Jackson on the same team is asking for trouble.

blanket
12-19-2005, 10:41 AM
Then we can trade Tinsley away for a big and maybe a backup SG

Frank Slade
12-19-2005, 10:41 AM
have we established were this rumors are coming from ? :confused:

tadscout
12-19-2005, 10:42 AM
"NBA insiders indicated Saturday a possible three-way trade could have Artest going to Denver, Harrington returning to Indiana, where he played from 1998-99 to 2003-04 and the Nuggets sending forward Nene and guard Earl Watson to Atlanta. There also have been indications of a possible deal in which Harrington would go to Denver for Nene and Watson." Rocky Mountain News (javascript:newwind('http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nba/article/0,2777,DRMN_23922_4326071,00.html','41')) Link

"Harrington said he would welcome a trade to Denver. If that doesn't happen, he said he will consider the Nuggets when he becomes a free agent after the season. "Definitely, if they got some money out there for me," Harrington said before Atlanta's 110-107 overtime win Sunday against the Nuggets." Rocky Mountain News (javascript:newwind('http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nba/article/0,2777,DRMN_23922_4326071,00.html','51')) Link

tadscout
12-19-2005, 10:44 AM
That above is all I've found... Not the same rumor as in first post...

Unclebuck
12-19-2005, 10:44 AM
Did I or someone else post the article that said the Pacers have a scout folowing the Nuggets around, watching Watson. I know i read that yesteday, but I forget if I posted it.

I still like Fred Jones, but he is a free agent at the end of this season and I don't think we'll re-sign him. Maybe the pacers backcourt needs to be re-worked. Maybe TPTB have decided plan B is needed, build around J.O. but re-tool the roster. I love Foster, but maybe now is the time to trade him also, unless his trade value is low due to his injury

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 10:45 AM
So our rotation would be what?

Tinsley/Watson
Saras/Johnson
Jackson/Granger
Harrington/Croshere
Jermaine O'Neal/Jeff Foster

Eh....it's ok, but doesn't do a whole lot for me.

sweabs
12-19-2005, 10:45 AM
All in all I'd pass on this. I just think Harrington & Jackson on the same team is asking for trouble.

Agreed. Add to the fact that Al will likely leave after this year, and he doesn't really help positionally with what we have right now...

As for the Watson stuff, I'd be fine having him as the backup...for Saras. We don't need 3 good PG's though...so one would have to leave.

Coach
12-19-2005, 10:48 AM
This is getting interesting. If Watson does come in I think that Tinsley will be gone. We will have two people that can play the 1 or 2. Sara's and A.J. I think this makes them more valuable than Tinsley. This allows them to get time at both the point and shooting guard spots depending on injury or foul trouble. I wouldn't be surprised to see Tinsley and Jackson eventually traded for a player that is an upgrade and can play both the shooting guard and small forward positions. If this occurs it gives us great flexibility with lineups.

Hicks
12-19-2005, 10:50 AM
diamonddave00, please check your PMs. :)

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 10:50 AM
Agreed. Add to the fact that Al will likely leave after this year, and he doesn't really help positionally with what we have right now...

As for the Watson stuff, I'd be fine having him as the backup...for Saras. We don't need 3 good PG's though...so one would have to leave.
Why would Al likely leave after this year?

tadscout
12-19-2005, 10:51 AM
If that doesn't happen, he said he will consider the Nuggets when he becomes a free agent after the season. "Definitely, if they got some money out there for me," Harrington said before Atlanta's 110-107 overtime win Sunday against the Nuggets." Rocky Mountain News (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:newwind%28%27http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nba/article/0,2777,DRMN_23922_4326071,00.html%27,%2751%27%29) Link

Doesn't that quote there by Al scare you folks? This summer he's going to the highest bidder...

BillS
12-19-2005, 10:51 AM
So does that mean a second trade of Tinsley/Jackson (1-2 combo) for a big man might follow?

BillS
12-19-2005, 10:55 AM
Doesn't that quote there by Al scare you folks? This summer he's going to the highest bidder...

Not really. I think where I am with Al is that I'd like to see him here to work with Granger. I suspect Granger might be ready to start next year.

I'm looking for Al as much to improve the locker room chemistry as I am for long term skills.

Question - if we trade for Al, do we have any Bird rights? Where would be be as far as a sign-and-trade advantage with him?

sweabs
12-19-2005, 11:01 AM
Why would Al likely leave after this year?

$$$

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 11:05 AM
$$$
Pacers could offer Al more money than anybody. And if he comes in, proves he can be a great #2 to JO, and the Pacers play well, I see no reason for them not ot pay him. The only scenario is if some stupid team overpays him ($12M+ annually) and even then we could do what the Suns did and work out a sign & trade.

317Kim
12-19-2005, 11:10 AM
I'd miss Fred too. He's a great guy and brings a lot of energy to the 2nd unit.

and yes, that Al quote just haunts me everytime I read it over. all for the money huh...

Hicks
12-19-2005, 11:13 AM
If Al doesn't work out, he's a FA this summer. If he does, he's a FA this summer that we have the best shot of signing if we want him, or we can S&T. Pretty simple to me.

Frank Slade
12-19-2005, 11:19 AM
If Al doesn't work out, he's a FA this summer. If he does, he's a FA this summer that we have the best shot of signing if we want him, or we can S&T. Pretty simple to me.

Yep no reason at all to worry on what happens after this season.
It's all about win now.. deal with it later... ...bottom line.

The events of last week should tell you , no need to worry about the future because you are only promised today...

If Al works out great, fine we have the option to bite the bullet and sign him to a larger deal . The guy is only 25 , we could do alot worse.
.

sixthman
12-19-2005, 11:30 AM
I have no doubt Al Harrington would help us this year. But isn't Danny Granger going to be the Pacers starting small forward for the Pacers in the near future? I think so. Wouldn't we risk being back in the same situation with Al that we were before: Al has to be a sixth man and not content with his status on the team.

These questions need to be considered. Does a sixth man warrant the large contract that Harrington is sure to get? Will he accept that role? Do you think it's possible that we can get by with a starting front line of Granger/Harrington/O'Neal in the future?

I like what Al Harrington brings. The good vibrations, the inside scoring and tenacity, the versatility. But I think there are some serious questions about how he would fit with us in the future.

Also if we trade away an expiring contract in Pollard we are really screwed on our luxury tax situation for next year; we definitely endanger chances of re-signing Al. Every dollar we pay Al would be doubled with a luxury tax payment. No way around it, if Pollard's contract is converted into long term salary in a trade.

Also, if Pollard is traded, won't we be leaving ourselves thin at center. Or do you think that Cro and Al can fill in, if things get desperate?

Shade
12-19-2005, 11:33 AM
I think we could do better, but this isn't too bad.

Jermaniac
12-19-2005, 11:40 AM
I love it, we get my boy Al and we get Earl The God Watson. DD where did you hear this rumor?

Hicks
12-19-2005, 11:43 AM
I love it, we get my boy Al and we get Earl The God Watson. DD where did you hear this rumor?

He probably can't/won't say, but he heard about the Al to Atlanta trade (and mentioned it on IS) a few days before that happened.

Jermaniac
12-19-2005, 11:46 AM
Ohh okay thanks for letting me know that Hicks. Very good to know that he has connections, I'm so damn excited right now. I really hope he is right with this one too.

sixthman
12-19-2005, 11:50 AM
Earl Watson apparently can't be traded until Dec. 29 because he was a late summer signing. :(

Jermaniac
12-19-2005, 12:05 PM
I guess that is why they are waiting for so long to pull the trade off.

diamonddave00
12-19-2005, 12:05 PM
Part of Donnie's worry is resigning Al Harrington. Donnie wants to talk to Jermaine about the fact bringing Al back will mean more time at center for him. IF Al is brought back plan is to bring Granger along in the 6th man role.

Walsh , likes Danny aggressiveness on defense and rebounding off the bench for the time being. He and Carlisle , fear if Danny starts he's apt to have 2 fouls in the first 5 minutes playing against nba starting small forwards.

Tinsley and Jackson are on short ropes, the idea with Watson is he is quicker and a better defender if Tinsley's mood sours or he is injured. Walsh is not 100% sold on the deal , he has a few other ideas he wants to check out further before signing off on a trade.

Watson has grown on the Pacer brass after they became aware he would be available, originally they were just going to send him on to Atlanta and that still could happen.

Just saying this trade is in mid stage so don't expect a move just yet.

shags
12-19-2005, 12:09 PM
Earl Watson apparently can't be traded until Dec. 29 because he was a late summer signing. :(

He signed September 7th, so he can be traded now.

That's an interesting trade, and leaves the Pacers with 5 PGs. I was thinking that the trade would be something along the lines of Harrington to Indiana, Artest to Denver, Nene, Watson, and a 2007 1st round draft pick (from Denver or Dallas) to Atlanta.

The last two years the Hawks have gotten first rounders from trading players with expiring contracts. I figured that would be the holdup on their end. The Pacers seem to want Harrington, and Denver seems desperate enough to trade for Artest. They're not even in the playoffs right now.

Jermaniac
12-19-2005, 12:14 PM
Part of Donnie's worry is resigning Al Harrington. Donnie wants to talk to Jermaine about the fact bringing Al back will mean more time at center for him. IF Al is brought back plan is to bring Granger along in the 6th man role.

Walsh , likes Danny aggressiveness on defense and rebounding off the bench for the time being. He and Carlisle , fear if Danny starts he's apt to have 2 fouls in the first 5 minutes playing against nba starting small forwards.

Tinsley and Jackson are on short ropes, the idea with Watson is he is quicker and a better defender if Tinsley's mood sours or he is injured. Walsh is not 100% sold on the deal , he has a few other ideas he wants to check out further before signing off on a trade.

Watson has grown on the Pacer brass after they became aware he would be available, originally they were just going to send him on to Atlanta and that still could happen.

Just saying this trade is in mid stage so don't expect a move just yet.
I'm sure JO will be welcome to playing the 5 if Al comes back. Thanks for letting us know all this DD00. I'm so damn excited now.

Kegboy
12-19-2005, 12:15 PM
So, do we play Al at the 3 or the 4? Watson lets Cabbage move over to the 2 exclusively (:woohoo:), so do we want him backing up Jack, or him starting with Jack at the 3? A Jack/Al/JO frontcourt would get killed on the boards, wouldn't it?

I'm leery, but I'll say this. If we don't have a trade by the end of the week, then Donnie is definitely waiting on Watson.

Hicks
12-19-2005, 12:21 PM
He doesn't have to wait for Watson.

Frank Slade
12-19-2005, 12:22 PM
Not to get off track here.. but Sjax right now is at the 3 .

I don't see a scenario in which Sarunas is benched so we can move Jax back to starting at the 2 given the recent play of each.

Saruna has proven he really excels with the starting group.
Not to mention I think it has been mentioned here, Jax may do better with the second unit and having alot more plays come his way.

I think until proven otherwise Sarunas is a starter.. where that leaves everyone else is up for debate... just my opinion.

sweabs
12-19-2005, 12:25 PM
As of now, none of this stuff seems to have any direction for me. We need to address our rebounding problem, but as Kegboy pointed out, a Jack/Al/JO frontcourt is not going to help.

The PG stuff also confuses me. I really don't like seeing Saras at SG - he could be used so much more effectively at PG in my opinion.

And do we want to be playing JO at the 5 for the rest of the season, where he takes that extra "wear and tear" on the body? I like Al just as much as the next guy, but it's not a good fit right now.

Kegboy
12-19-2005, 12:34 PM
Part of Donnie's worry is resigning Al Harrington. Donnie wants to talk to Jermaine about the fact bringing Al back will mean more time at center for him. IF Al is brought back plan is to bring Granger along in the 6th man role.

Walsh , likes Danny aggressiveness on defense and rebounding off the bench for the time being. He and Carlisle , fear if Danny starts he's apt to have 2 fouls in the first 5 minutes playing against nba starting small forwards.

Tinsley and Jackson are on short ropes, the idea with Watson is he is quicker and a better defender if Tinsley's mood sours or he is injured. Walsh is not 100% sold on the deal , he has a few other ideas he wants to check out further before signing off on a trade.

Watson has grown on the Pacer brass after they became aware he would be available, originally they were just going to send him on to Atlanta and that still could happen.

Just saying this trade is in mid stage so don't expect a move just yet.

Interesting. Well, Watson is definitely a Rick Carlisle PG, there's no getting around that.

I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this:

Starters:
Tinsley
Jack
Al
JO
Jeff

6 minute timeout: Danny for Jeff

Tinsley
Jack
Danny
Al
JO

3 minute timeout: Watson for Tinsley, Cabbage for Jack

Watson
Cabbage
Danny
Al
JO

2nd quarter: Cro for Al, Harrison for JO

Watson
Cabbage
Danny
Cro
Harrison

Then, subsitutions work themselves back based on matchups, fouls, who's playing well, etc.

Come playoff time, we'll shrink down to an 8 man rotation with Jack playing more 3 and Danny more 4.

It's certainly a versatile lineup. Something just seems off to me, and I can't put my finger on it. It's not like Scot ever plays, so that doesn't change anything. I'm just worried about JO at the 5, after his earlier performances there.

Jermaniac
12-19-2005, 12:36 PM
JO has been playing the 5 the whole year, I'm guessing he is used to it by now.

Jon Theodore
12-19-2005, 01:19 PM
Why would Al likely leave after this year?

why WOULDN'T al leave.

sixthman
12-19-2005, 01:19 PM
He signed September 7th, so he can be traded now.

That would be a good thing. My source was Peter Vecsey's column on Sunday. Would this be the first time Pete has given us incorrect info? :)

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 01:36 PM
why WOULDN'T al leave.
Hmmm....
Because we can offer him the most $$$ per season? :-o
Because we can offer him a contract for the most number of years? :-o
Because he appearantly loved it here? :-o
Because he'd get to be the #2 man on a successful team? :-o

sweabs
12-19-2005, 01:39 PM
Because he'd get to be the #2 man on a successful team? :-o

Does anyone think Al Harrington as a second option makes a championship contending team?

able
12-19-2005, 01:41 PM
Hmmm....
Because we can offer him the most $$$ per season? :-o
Because we can offer him a contract for the most number of years? :-o
Because he appearantly loved it here? :-o
Because he'd get to be the #2 man on a successful team? :-o

1: we will never do, see our payroll and see Brad Miller
2: yeah like we have none of those we regretted at some stage
3: says who? HE left
4: which was the reason he left in the first place, he wanted to be #1

Atl will probably be far more willing to pay him a heck of a lot more then we can and he gets to be the star, unlike here, they are building atm and given 1 or 2 years they will be a definite playoff team, at his age he could do a lot worse.

I have not got one thought that Al would sign here once he becomes a FA.

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 01:45 PM
Does anyone think Al Harrington as a second option makes a championship contending team?
Does anyone think Chauncey "Career 40% shooter" Billups as a second option makes a championship contending team?

Yeah, me neither.....

sweabs
12-19-2005, 01:52 PM
Does anyone think Chauncey "Career 40% shooter" Billups as a second option makes a championship contending team?

Yeah, me neither.....

I'm pretty sure the Pistons don't follow that "1-2 Combo" philosophy. They really don't have a first option and second option in the sense of most teams who try to follow that template. The Pistons have 4 guys who can exploit matchups on the offensive end, depending upon what is most favourable.

The Pacers, on the other hand, now don't have the 1-2 punch, nor do they have a team that operates like the Pistons. I just don't see what direction we're taking...

CableKC
12-19-2005, 01:52 PM
Does anyone think Al Harrington as a second option makes a championship contending team?
Only if we trade SJax for a SG that can defend the perimeter before the trade deadline......we just need to build around a solid nucleus of 2 player ( to make all of you happy....JONeal and Baby Al ) with role players that can do the rest ( like Sarunas, Granger, Foster, Croshere and AJ ).

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 01:54 PM
1: we will never do, see our payroll and see Brad Miller
2: yeah like we have none of those we regretted at some stage
3: says who? HE left
4: which was the reason he left in the first place, he wanted to be #1

Atl will probably be far more willing to pay him a heck of a lot more then we can and he gets to be the star, unlike here, they are building atm and given 1 or 2 years they will be a definite playoff team, at his age he could do a lot worse.

I have not got one thought that Al would sign here once he becomes a FA.
1. We've got $20+ million coming off the books, provided we keep Scot, Austin, and Bender. Al already makes close to $7M per, so even if he wants $10M per, or cap will still lower by a huge margin (around $14M) after next offseason. If Al's worth $10M (and with the way hes been playing this year he definantly is) he'll be paid $10M by Walsh.
2. Al's only 25 and has improved nicely ever year he's been in the league. This isn't an Austin Croshere/1-good series, Jonathen Bender/potential scenario. Al is proven goods.
3. Read his recent interview with the Indianapolis Star.
4. He left because he was #3 (at best) and coming off the bench. Big difference between being a #3 off the bench and a #2 starting.

Al reliezes he'll get much more repsect being the #2 man on a winning team like the Pacers then a #1 man on a losing team like the Hawks. So that's not the problem.

Mourning
12-19-2005, 01:55 PM
As of now, none of this stuff seems to have any direction for me. We need to address our rebounding problem, but as Kegboy pointed out, a Jack/Al/JO frontcourt is not going to help.

The PG stuff also confuses me. I really don't like seeing Saras at SG - he could be used so much more effectively at PG in my opinion.

And do we want to be playing JO at the 5 for the rest of the season, where he takes that extra "wear and tear" on the body? I like Al just as much as the next guy, but it's not a good fit right now.

:thumbsup:

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 02:03 PM
I'm pretty sure the Pistons don't follow that "1-2 Combo" philosophy. They really don't have a first option and second option in the sense of most teams who try to follow that template. The Pistons have 4 guys who can exploit matchups on the offensive end, depending upon what is most favourable.

The Pacers, on the other hand, now don't have the 1-2 punch, nor do they have a team that operates like the Pistons. I just don't see what direction we're taking...
Actually, I see both teams as being similar offensively. The Pistons have no truly great scorers, and instead get by with a balaced attack. I see the Pacers as being very similar.

Here's how I'd break it down:
Chauncey - 15-17
Rip - 16-19
Prince - 12-15
Rasheed - 14-16
Ben - 8-10
Bench - 15-30

Pacers will have a similar setup
Jamaal - 12-14
Jackson - 14-16
Al - 17-19
JO - 20-23
Jeff - 6-8
Bench - 15-30

The question is, could we ever develop chemistry like the Pistons have? And how do we fare defensively?

sweabs
12-19-2005, 02:10 PM
As you mentioned, chemistry and defense are going to be two major question marks. Rebounding is another.

That is why it would make sense for me, to pursue someone who can play centre and rebound the ball, while anchoring our defense.

Mourning
12-19-2005, 02:19 PM
As you mentioned, chemistry and defense are going to be two major question marks. Rebounding is another.

That is why it would make sense for me, to pursue someone who can play centre and rebound the ball, while anchoring our defense.

Those usually come at a big (salary)price. Artest would just be a part of such a deal unless you want a new JO type of player (regarding his youth and not getting a lot of playing time on his current team). Ideas?

Anyone know how's Kendrick Perkins doing in Boston btw? Seemed like a potentially really good rebounder, he's strong and big for his 21 years old.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

ABADays
12-19-2005, 02:30 PM
Artest & Pollard are non-factors are on team so I don't view either as much of a loss.

Ok - I'm really going to chastized for this . . . but that's ok - I'm a man I can take it.

I don't necessarily agree with the statement about Pollard. Yes, maybe he doesn't play much but the past two years I think it is quite evident what guys who don't have good character or good "karma" can do to a team. Not only is Pollard good insurance, but he's a great kind of guy to have on any team. Just like another player I have pulled out from under the bus numerous times on this board (Cro), I think he does everything that asked of him. I think the levity and playfulness he brings is invaluable - particularly to this bunch of misfits.

I like the guy - I hope he stays.

Naptown Seth
12-19-2005, 02:52 PM
As you mentioned, chemistry and defense are going to be two major question marks. Rebounding is another.

That is why it would make sense for me, to pursue someone who can play centre and rebound the ball, while anchoring our defense.
Who's out there for trade? Erick Dampier? Etan Thomas? Mark Blount? Raef LaFrentz? Dan Gadzuric? Lorenzen Wright? Kelvin Cato?
A couple of players with laughable contracts (Dampier and LaFrentz), guys not as good as Foster (Thomas, Blount, Cato). The only two intersting of the bunch i.m.o are Gadzuric (who plays for a division rival) and Wright (whose expiring contract is more valuable then his abilities)

As for our rebounding....here's how I'd rate our players....

Great
Jeff Foster
Jermaine O'Neal

Very Good
Jamaal Tinsley
Danny Granger (SF)
Al Harrington ( SF)

Good
Sarunas Jasikevicius (PG)
Scot Pollard

Average
Austin Croshere
Danny Granger (PF)
Al Harrington (PF)
Stephen Jackson (SG)
Sarunas Jasikevicius (SG)

Poor
Fred Jones
Anthony Johnson
Stephen Jackson (SF)

just use that chart to find a good rebounding lineup :)

Tinsley/Saras
Jackson/Fred
Al/Granger
JO/Croshere
Foster/Pollard

That's a fantastic rebounding rotation, but now you have to question the offense. Jeff, Scot, Danny, and Fred are all iffy scorers at this point in time. Would JO, Al, Jamaal, Saras, Jackson, and Croshere be able to carry so much of the offensive load?

marcd
12-19-2005, 03:17 PM
4: which was the reason he left in the first place, he wanted to be #1



Not to split hairs, but I can't remember where Al ever said he wanted to be #1 option. I seem to remember that he wanted to start and knew he wouldn't as long as we had Artest. I seem to recall Pacers brass telling him that "it didn't matter who starts, but rather who finishes". He wanted to start and the Pacers traded him so he could. I think he would be happy being the second option behind JO.

Now I am not saying I am sold on AL, but I just wanted to clarify the claim made in point #4

MarcD

able
12-19-2005, 07:49 PM
1. We've got $20+ million coming off the books, provided we keep Scot, Austin, and Bender. Al already makes close to $7M per, so even if he wants $10M per, or cap will still lower by a huge margin (around $14M) after next offseason. If Al's worth $10M (and with the way hes been playing this year he definantly is) he'll be paid $10M by Walsh.
2. Al's only 25 and has improved nicely ever year he's been in the league. This isn't an Austin Croshere/1-good series, Jonathen Bender/potential scenario. Al is proven goods.
3. Read his recent interview with the Indianapolis Star.
4. He left because he was #3 (at best) and coming off the bench. Big difference between being a #3 off the bench and a #2 starting.

Al reliezes he'll get much more repsect being the #2 man on a winning team like the Pacers then a #1 man on a losing team like the Hawks. So that's not the problem.

1: Subtracting JB and RA from the payroll means that we have committed for NEXT season 55.3 million.

for that we have: JO/Cro/Jax/Tins/Jeff/Saras/AJ/Granger/Hulk i.e. 9 players, not something you can go to war with and 3 under the league min.

the LT will be around 61 mio again, assuming this:

(your proposal) add Al 10 mio (if that gets it done, I doubt it, in todays market)
first round pick 1.4 mio (picking aorund 20, lower is cheaper, higher is exponentially more expensive) so now we have added 2 players and are at 11, but our payrolll is already at 67 million, 6 million over the LT
let's say we add 4 more for the league's min (around 1 mio) this will make it 71 million

which is almost equal to this year as far as the LT is concerned. (yes we have 79 mio but deduct Miller)

It also means that you have replaced Ron with Al, perhaps as teammate an upgrade, but not as player, you have lost Polly, you have lost Fred, you will have gotten rid of JB, Walker and Gill.

If all you bring back is min wage scrubs then the team is worse then it is now, meaning we are paying the same amount of LT and will not be a contender, now, if you think DW will go for that then I propose you read up on Pacers history.

2: Al will most likely at the very minimum command 10 million, more likely 12 which in my opinion is simply to much (it means your role players are going to be the minimum salary type instead of the above MLE type)

3 & 4 are of minor importance, but could play a role later on.

able
12-19-2005, 07:51 PM
Not to split hairs, but I can't remember where Al ever said he wanted to be #1 option. I seem to remember that he wanted to start and knew he wouldn't as long as we had Artest. I seem to recall Pacers brass telling him that "it didn't matter who starts, but rather who finishes". He wanted to start and the Pacers traded him so he could. I think he would be happy being the second option behind JO.

Now I am not saying I am sold on AL, but I just wanted to clarify the claim made in point #4

MarcD
Al stated on more then one occassion that he wanted to be the man, which can only be explained as the #1 option, which he was/is in Atl (or shared 1/2)

marcd
12-19-2005, 08:29 PM
No, he did not. He never stated that he wanted to be "The Man". He repeatedly stated that if he couldn't start, then he wanted to be traded and given the opportunity to start.

Do you really think AL would try and upstage his good buddy JO? I'm sorry, but I think you have the reasons for AL requesting the trade all wrong. He wanted to start, not be the #1 option. The only player that thought he was better than JO was Ron. Harrington wanted to start, that is it.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. He wanted to start, that will be accomplished if he is traded back here.

MarcD

Bball
12-19-2005, 08:45 PM
Is there never a chance of seeing a balanced Pacer roster with players playing their natural positions and using our true centers at all?

The trade as presented needs tweaked. A lot. Surely there's another piece to the puzzle... a followup trade, etc? 5 PG's?

-Bball

Gamble
12-19-2005, 08:51 PM
WE should be able to do better than AL. If it does go down
i hope we do another trade for a more reliable scorer. AL isn't going
to cut it and rebounding is still going to suck. I doubt this is going
to happen.

diamonddave00
12-19-2005, 08:55 PM
How many nba teams or even college teams use a real center anymore??? Jermaine is 6'11 260 , Harrington 6'9 250, Croshere 6'10 235, Foster 6'11 250 and Harrison 7' 275, even Granger at 6'9 228 is not a runt. The nba game has by and large gone away from true centers. Basicly its 2 power fowards , 2 swingmen and a point guard.

I truely think Donnie Walsh , will spend from the time Artest is traded until the Feb. trade deadline evaluating more moves. Tinsley and Jackson will be watched closely as will Granger's development.

Danny Granger's development both on the boards and defense will be a key to this teams success.

Bball
12-19-2005, 09:07 PM
Is Bender anywhere in all this?

-Bball

BlueNGold
12-19-2005, 09:24 PM
No, he did not. He never stated that he wanted to be "The Man". He repeatedly stated that if he couldn't start, then he wanted to be traded and given the opportunity to start.

Do you really think AL would try and upstage his good buddy JO? I'm sorry, but I think you have the reasons for AL requesting the trade all wrong. He wanted to start, not be the #1 option. The only player that thought he was better than JO was Ron. Harrington wanted to start, that is it.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. He wanted to start, that will be accomplished if he is traded back here.

MarcD
That's how I remember it going with Al. Al may have said many things, but his issue was that he wanted to start...not necessarily numero uno. Artest was the roadblock, now it might be an opportunity.

In any event, he has to realize from his experience in Atlanta that he will only be "the man" if he's playing on a bottom feeder...or maybe the WNBA ;).

jmoney2584
12-19-2005, 11:59 PM
maybe we trade for Al and sign him to a cheaper extension?

Bball
12-20-2005, 12:16 AM
I don't overlook the possible scenario that Walsh would sign Harrington knowing it is a 1 year rental and he can't or won't ($$$$) resign him next summer. IF Granger is the SF of the future, then Walsh could be looking at pacifying the Pacer nation for a few months now and then using the Artest situation ultimately as a salary dump come next summer. Then Granger takes over starting SF next season.

I still can't get too excited about any deal that leaves us with 5 PG's. That's just too caustic. Especially for this bunch. But, I trust there will be further moves ahead to bring some kind of vision and clarity to that. There would have to be IMHO.

IMHO the backcourt and PG situation is already a mess, adding another PG won't help that in the short term.

-Bball

GO!!!!!
12-20-2005, 12:32 AM
Why don't we just do a Joe Smith with Al, and trade artest for something else, surely we can have it both ways....

diamonddave00
12-22-2005, 10:41 AM
Reading in another thread a few names people suggested - Jerome James, Michael Olawokandi , Mike Dunleavy Jr and Adonal Foyle. This is why none of them will be Pacers in an Artest trade.

Jerome James is a 30 year old part center, huge body , some skills --reason he won't be a Pacer- age 30 contract 5 years 29 million. Walsh does not want the combo of age and long term deal.

Michael Olawokandi--- age 30 , contract 1 yr 5.9 mil. Does not offer anything David Harrison doesn't. Chronic underachiever after being the overall #1 pick in 1998 draft.

Mike Dunleavy Jr -- age is ok 25 but his contract 5 years 44 mil is far to long and costly for a career 10 ppg scorer , does all things fairly good except defense. At 1/2 the money per season would fit but not with brand new recently signed contract.

Adonal Foyle-- positives very good shot blocker and decent rebounder. Negatives 30 years old with a 5year 45 million dollar contract.

As I pointed out when starting this thread the other day , at this point Nuggets deal with Hawks as 3rd team in it was the most likely with Harrington and possibly Watson ending up here was the most possible , but it was still in mid trade mode.

As we sit here today that still remains the case. Nuggets struggles have made them a little more trade ready , while Hawks and Pacers recent success has tempered their rush to make a move.

SoupIsGood
12-22-2005, 10:43 AM
I hope this deal gets done. If we could steal a pick or someone like Hodge from one of the teams that'd be great too.

PacerMan
12-22-2005, 10:47 AM
Does anyone think Al Harrington as a second option makes a championship contending team?

Artest averaged 20, Al 18. You see that as huge?
Some here need to look past this "second option" stuff and start looking at TEAM. Sarunas can shoot, Jax can shoot sometimes, as can Tins and Cro and Al. The BEST is to have one 1st option and 4 "second" options.

SoupIsGood
12-22-2005, 10:49 AM
Artest averaged 20, Al 18. You see that as huge?
Some here need to look past this "second option" stuff and start looking at TEAM. Sarunas can shoot, Jax can shoot sometimes, as can Tins and Cro and Al. The BEST is to have one 1st option and 4 "second" options.

Yep. As long as we share the ball, that'd work out really well I think.

diamonddave00
12-22-2005, 11:02 AM
The way Danny Granger has played the last 2 games as done 2 things for Donnie Walsh.

1. made his trading of Ron Artest easier to accept for the majority of fans

2. showed to other nba teams that he already has a decent replacement for Ron , and is not as desperate as some thought and would be willing to look for a quick fix

But to play devils advocate for a second , tho Granger has looked great , remember he is still a rookie and its only been a couple games that he's gotten big minutes and performed. Remember too the Pacers could very easily lose their next 3 games vs Cavs , Spurs and Mavs. If they do so will fans start to panic??? Donnie is still wanting help for this years team but each game Danny shows his skills makes Donnie relax just a little more.

Donnie is sitting with his gamblers smirk surveying the trade market, but with a bit of a renewed confidence he is still in a good situation to not rush( as if he ever has) to make a deal.

Young
12-22-2005, 11:14 AM
This isn't likely but does anyone think that Tinsley could be worked in the deal, going to Atlanta, with Josh Childress coming to Indiana?

I really do not want to see us have 3-4 point guards who can play big minuates and while Saras can play some 2 I really think he is much better off at the 1 for defenseive purposes.

I don't know that Atlanta would part with Childress but it would make some sense. They clear out their glut of talented forwards (leaves them with Smith/Williams/Johnson) and they get a floor general now.

indygeezer
12-22-2005, 11:17 AM
When it come to players, I don't think DW gives a tinkers damn what the fans think. His job is to put the best product on the floor he can within reasonable financial constraints.

Al was supposedly being looked at as a 3 erplacement, now suddenly a 4? JO doesn't wish to stay at the 5 but if you make a 4 out of AL that is what is going to have to happen in order to keep Al happy too. Sometimes it sounds as if people wanna plug in their favorite player whether he fits in that round hole or not. It may just be that he isn't the best fit for our team. It really depends on how much faith TPTB have in Danger and his ability to play the 3.

diamonddave00
12-22-2005, 11:33 AM
To me both Al and Danny are combo forwards , depending on match ups I feel both can play both positions. Plus we have Jermaine, Jeff , Scot , Austin and David if we need to go bigger.

Stephen can slide to sf , Al adds depth scoring , rebounding , decent defense and some toughness.

In todays nba game its really 2 pf's , 2wing players and a point guard most of the time.

sixthman
12-22-2005, 11:38 AM
To me both Al and Danny are combo forwards , depending on match ups I feel both can play both positions. Plus we have Jermaine, Jeff , Scot , Austin and David if we need to go bigger.

Stephen can slide to sf , Al adds depth scoring , rebounding , decent defense and some toughness.

In todays nba game its really 2 pf's , 2wing players and a point guard most of the time.

I agree. As I sat watching the game last night, I couldn't help remark that Al would almost certainly match-up better against Elton Brand than Danny or Cro. Danny, by the way, I thought did better on Brand than Austin.

Maybe a healthy Nene would have been the best match-up of all though.

diamonddave00
12-22-2005, 11:53 AM
There in lies the problem with NENE both his health and his interior defense. While Nene is a very good athlete , he lacks a few things on defense. He isn't a good jumper, tho he is 6'10 he is not yet a good post defender. He has quickness and strength to become one but isn't there yet.

His knee according to reports is coming along well . His contract is up after this season , prior to this season he said he expected to get a contract like Samuel Dalembert 6 years 65 million. I believe that the fact Donnie Walsh is by nature very conservative , signing a player to a long term , very expensive contract, without actually seeing how healthy or if he even fits in here is not something he will do.

NENE , will get an offer in the 9-10 mil per year from someone. If Adonal Foyle does that tells you the lack of center depth in nba. With the Pacers luxury tax problems I'm not sure the Simon's or Walsh and Bird , can or will be willing to do so because of the question marks on Nene.

We know Al Harrington , will want a big money deal. But we also know Al experienced losing in Atlanta and may be willing to take slightly less to remain here where he made his home . But Al will still want 8-10 mil range , I can see the Simon's , Walsh and Bird more willing to do that with Al , based on his age, experience, health and yes friendship with Jermaine.

Pacesetter
12-22-2005, 07:50 PM
We know Al Harrington , will want a big money deal. But we also know Al experienced losing in Atlanta and may be willing to take slightly less to remain here where he made his home . But Al will still want 8-10 mil range , I can see the Simon's , Walsh and Bird more willing to do that with Al , based on his age, experience, health and yes friendship with Jermaine.

Something tells me that Al would be better off in Denver where he can get the big money he wants. If he came in here and settled for less than what HE felt he was worth, it might have a negative impact on his desire, and performance. IMO, if his first thought is money, then he should try his hand in Denver where he can get paid all the money. I seriously doubt Donnie will pay Al what Al thinks he's worth, and that would be the impasse.