PDA

View Full Version : How does the current situation compare to the brawl?



Shade
12-17-2005, 08:11 PM
To be completely honest, I thought the situation were were in post-brawl was pretty much the worst a franchise and team could be in, and it couldn't possibly get any worse.

I was wrong.

This team is a mess, and it may take a complete house-cleaning to fix it up. This is so disheartening, to be on the verge of something special, just to see the players that claim they're all about "team" completely abandon that concept on the court.

It's a very painful time to be a Pacers fan. I just feel like we've become what we hate. :(

Los Angeles
12-17-2005, 08:22 PM
This team is a mess because management was incapable of doing what was necessary to fix the team after the brawl and before this season started.

OR they were brilliant to let the fans (and themselves) see what a mess the team was in before making the necessary changes, this way the fans are demanding change. If we didn't see the mess, many may have thought that changes made in the off-season were not necessary.

Whatever the deal is, it truly is a mess.

But I'm confident that we can make a run and be competitve during the playoffs. That's been enough for 10 years, why not 1 more?

Unclebuck
12-17-2005, 08:49 PM
Good point Shade. I was thinking about this earlier today. This feels a lot like the post brawl period.

I must say though, I'm disgusted by the Pacers first half tonight. No effort what-so-ever. Looks like they don't want to be there at all.

Jermaniac
12-17-2005, 08:50 PM
Stephen Jackson needs to be traded for someone who gives a damn about playing this game.

Tim
12-17-2005, 08:54 PM
Well lets see what happens in the second half.

The team looks like it only want to play the last 16 minutes or so.

ABADays
12-17-2005, 09:41 PM
I just woke up - did something happen with Ron?

aceace
12-17-2005, 11:42 PM
Yes... Ron was traded for one of those 3-Packs of Planters Christmas Peanuts.

Peck
12-18-2005, 03:54 AM
To be completely honest, I thought the situation were were in post-brawl was pretty much the worst a franchise and team could be in, and it couldn't possibly get any worse.

I was wrong.

This team is a mess, and it may take a complete house-cleaning to fix it up. This is so disheartening, to be on the verge of something special, just to see the players that claim they're all about "team" completely abandon that concept on the court.

It's a very painful time to be a Pacers fan. I just feel like we've become what we hate. :(


Once we've had the benefit of time, say 3-4 years from now, you will look back on this time and wonder why you ever really thought that.

This team was always on the verge of something special, however it was always on the verge of totall collapse as well.

I've always been a Walsh basher, I won't even try to hide that. However I will say this for him.

I honestly believe he let his better judgement for character players go to the back burner for a chance to win an NBA championship.

I will not fault him for that.

I faulted him for all of those years in the 80's & 90's for doing the exact opposite, but I truely believe he wanted to go out on top.

I think he still does. But that is why he put up with some of this stuff, that is why he took on players that in no way would he have brought to or at the very least have kept on the team back in the day.

In other words, I'm trying to be nice to Donnie & say while it is his fault how the team was put together, I don't blame him for trying. In fact I salute him for trying.

Now as to how this all feels?

Right now, it feels pretty damn good.

But then again I was never an Artest fan. I wanted to be & I tried everything in my power this season to praise every move he made on the floor. But at the end of the day I just could never seperate bad Ron from good Ron like some of you could.

Are we title contenders? I don't know. I think things have to be settled about Artest & see who is going to be on our team & how we are going to play before I make that call.

But understand this, I was never convinced we were title contenders anyway before the season & as the season went on it became clear we were not in the upper tier of teams. We're playing great right now, but we haven't played any great teams since the trade demand.

We'll get a better glimpse coming up this week.

BTW, am I the only person who is starting to wonder how safe Rick's job is with Bird right now?

Yeah I know they are best buds & all, but that comment Bird made in the Boston paper about how he thought Ronnie should be allowed some leaway on bad shots made me start to wondering....

Bball
12-18-2005, 04:05 AM
BTW, am I the only person who is starting to wonder how safe Rick's job is with Bird right now?

Yeah I know they are best buds & all, but that comment Bird made in the Boston paper about how he thought Ronnie should be allowed some leaway on bad shots made me start to wondering....

No, you are not.

-Bball

DisplacedKnick
12-18-2005, 08:18 AM
The difference between now and the brawl is that the current situation was completely predictable - not the specifics but it was a 100% guaranteed lock that Ron Artest would do something to disrupt the team - just like it's a 100% guaranteed lock that he'll do something - eventually - to disrupt his new team.

In one way the brawl was predictable too since even then I thought Ron had become more trouble than he was worth. But I don't think anyone on the planet though Ron's behavior could result in that much damage to a team. What's happening now is more in the "business as usual" category while the brawl was special. There we saw Ron Artest at his finest - I doubt he'll ever have quite as much impact on an NBA team again.

Harmonica
12-18-2005, 08:51 AM
I've always been a Walsh basher, I won't even try to hide that. However I will say this for him.

I honestly believe he let his better judgement for character players go to the back burner for a chance to win an NBA championship.

I will not fault him for that.

I faulted him for all of those years in the 80's & 90's for doing the exact opposite, but I truely believe he wanted to go out on top.

I think he still does. But that is why he put up with some of this stuff, that is why he took on players that in no way would he have brought to or at the very least have kept on the team back in the day.

In other words, I'm trying to be nice to Donnie & say while it is his fault how the team was put together, I don't blame him for trying. In fact I salute him for trying.

I think you're a little off. Well, way off actually. Donnie is a fiercely loyal person. He believes in the good in people. He had faith in Ron. It's as simple and as complicated as that. I believe that came before anything else, including winning a championship. Donnie sometimes leaves himself open to being taken advantage of because of these traits. In a way, I guess, it's like not wanting to believe the worst about your own children and having those parental blinders on when it comes to them. And you can tell by his comments, in his determination to trade Ron now, even though he said he doesn't feel betrayed, he does.

Peck
12-18-2005, 10:25 AM
I think you're a little off. Well, way off actually. Donnie is a fiercely loyal person. He believes in the good in people. He had faith in Ron. It's as simple and as complicated as that. I believe that came before anything else, including winning a championship. Donnie sometimes leaves himself open to being taken advantage of because of these traits. In a way, I guess, it's like not wanting to believe the worst about your own children and having those parental blinders on when it comes to them. And you can tell by his comments, in his determination to trade Ron now, even though he said he doesn't feel betrayed, he does.


Ok, so your saying Walsh wasn't trying to win a championship?

Actually I was only partly talking about Ron with my statements above. I also include bringing in Steven Jackson, who everybody knew was a headcase before he got here.

Harmonica
12-18-2005, 12:53 PM
Ok, so your saying Walsh wasn't trying to win a championship?

Actually I was only partly talking about Ron with my statements above. I also include bringing in Steven Jackson, who everybody knew was a headcase before he got here.

I think he is always trying to win a championship, but I don't think that was the overriding reason he stuck with Ron for as long as he did. I honestly believe he thought Ron could change and that an environment of understanding and support would help. Now, I also think he would have shipped Ron out of here if he thought he could have gotten equal trade value for him. And he and Larry kept holding their collective breath hoping Ron could keep it in check long enough to do just that. That to me was a gross miscalculation on their part. Their risk versus reward assessment was way off, in my opinion.

Kstat
12-18-2005, 12:55 PM
Here's my view:

The common theme post-11/19 was "shame on them." The team fed off the "us against the world" motto.

The common theme post-Artest seems to be, "shame on us." The team is winning, but it's in spite of Ron, not because of him. The level of enthusiasm is clearly different.

Unclebuck
12-18-2005, 10:38 PM
. We're playing great right now,


What in the world are you watching. Maybe I an taking your words out of context. But the Pacers are hardly playing great. The Knicks are horrible right now and the Pacers first half against them was horrible and I was disgusted.

Pacers were bad against the Celtics. They were OK against the Jazz, but only OK.

If the Pacers play the next 4 games like they have the past three they will go 0-4.

Peck
12-19-2005, 12:33 AM
I think he is always trying to win a championship, but I don't think that was the overriding reason he stuck with Ron for as long as he did. I honestly believe he thought Ron could change and that an environment of understanding and support would help. Now, I also think he would have shipped Ron out of here if he thought he could have gotten equal trade value for him. And he and Larry kept holding their collective breath hoping Ron could keep it in check long enough to do just that. That to me was a gross miscalculation on their part. Their risk versus reward assessment was way off, in my opinion.


I won't disagree about him hoping Ron would change. I have always heard former players sing Donnie's praises & you don't get that unless you earn it.

However, in all honesty would you think he would do this for Samaki Walker or Eddie Gill or even Fred Jones?

My guess is that he let Ron have a little more rope to hang himself with because at the core of it all Ron is a very talented basketball player & Donnie thought he could use him to win a title.

Peck
12-19-2005, 12:35 AM
What in the world are you watching. Maybe I an taking your words out of context. But the Pacers are hardly playing great. The Knicks are horrible right now and the Pacers first half against them was horrible and I was disgusted.

Pacers were bad against the Celtics. They were OK against the Jazz, but only OK.

If the Pacers play the next 4 games like they have the past three they will go 0-4.


Ok, great was probably not the best word to use.

However let's be honest here, the days of the Pacers playing great this season in your eyes are now gone the way of the do do.

I'm wondering if you will ever see them in a postive light again?

PacerMan
12-19-2005, 12:42 AM
To be completely honest, I thought the situation were were in post-brawl was pretty much the worst a franchise and team could be in, and it couldn't possibly get any worse.

I was wrong.

This team is a mess, and it may take a complete house-cleaning to fix it up. This is so disheartening, to be on the verge of something special, just to see the players that claim they're all about "team" completely abandon that concept on the court.

It's a very painful time to be a Pacers fan. I just feel like we've become what we hate. :(

Are you freaking out because the Colts lost????????????????
This team will be in the playoffs without a doubt.
We are getting nothing from Foster or Harrison to this point. Granger is just starting to play. Tinsley is back and Sarunas is starting to play very well. Jermaine is putting up STAR numbers and dominating.
We'll get a regular rotation player for Ron Artest AND Foster and Harrison will come back to the rotation. This team will be good to very good. If Granger is one of the rare rookies that make impacts and Tinsley is healthy at the end of the season we could be very dangerous come playoff time. There aren't any unbeatable teams in this league. I'm hoping we get a deadeye 2 guard personally, though I'd love to have Al back. :)
IF Jax ends up being a problem post-Artest, we can trade him. But that's hardly a housecleaning needed or called for. If he stays he could back up Granger at the 3 or the 2 guard we get. :)

Hicks
12-19-2005, 12:50 AM
Are you freaking out because the Colts lost????????????????

Check the dates. He posted this last night.

Unclebuck
12-19-2005, 08:34 AM
Ok, great was probably not the best word to use.

However let's be honest here, the days of the Pacers playing great this season in your eyes are now gone the way of the do do.

I'm wondering if you will ever see them in a postive light again?


We'll see, that is the best I can tell you.

I do need to make something clear, yes Ron is gone and it makes me very sad, and yes I don't beleive the team wil be or certainly won't have the chance to be as good without him (depends on what they get in a trade), but I still watch every minute of every game and certainly enjoyed the second half against the Knicks, and I'm excited about Granger, he's my type of player. But he's not Ron.

Just give me some time there Peck

BillS
12-19-2005, 10:28 AM
That little earthquake just now was me agreeing with Peck about Donnie's actions. ;)

However, I <i>do</i> believe this team was a contender at the beginning of the year. I <i>do</i> believe that, when they fired on all cylinders, they were pretty nigh unbeatable.

In my :sunshine: worldview, I actually <i>still</i> believe that the Pacers can continue to be contenders this year if the Ronnie (and, I believe, Jax) situations are resolved. It won't be easy, but it never has been - we aren't going to be the Bulls or the Lakers, sailing to victories. If/when we get a title, it'll be seven-game nail-biters all the way.

I think this because it is still only December, and we have a ton of time. Now, had this happened in March or April, things would have been over - not least because we'd have been past the trading deadline, but also because there would have been no time to re-form after benching Ron for the season.