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View Full Version : Odd thoughts about beating the Jazz, again...



Peck
12-17-2005, 02:18 AM
Like I said in my Boston thread, I thought that Cro & Tins would make a differance.

We won, always a good thing & we made an impressive comback, always an entertaining thing but (& you knew there would be one) all was not well in Pacerland.

First let me restate my absolute dying hatred of the 7 p.m. starts. It is almost impossible for me to make those d@mn tipoffs on times on most days & today was no differant.

So when I finally drag my fat @ss to the seat I look up & we are down 6-0 & were almost 4 min. into the game.

So, again, for any Pacers brass that might actually be reading this. Please for the love of God switch back to the 7:30 starts.

Back on topic.

My fist play that I saw was the first real warning sign of bad things during the night.

Jamaal slaps a ball loose getting the steal he leads a picture perfect 3-1 fast break. He makes a perfectly timed pass to a cutting Saras who drives up for an open layup. But wait, instead of shooting this wonderfully wide open shot he decides to make a pass back to Jamaal who is now right directly under the front of the rim with a Jazz player standing right in front of him. The Jazz player gets his hands on the ball & it rolls out of bounds.

Now there are two totally differant ways to view what transpired there, well there are actually more than that but let's just focus on these two possibilties.

1. Saras is thinking he will reward Jamaal for stealing the ball, making a great pass & giving Saras the open shot so he tries to give him the ball back.

2. Saras will not be outdone by Jamaal in the passing department to he tries to one up him for the assist total.

Either way it was messed up & IMO either way Saras was totally at fault there.

This led to some minor words between Saras & Tins., nothing big but just a conversation.

I can tell you now some of the players do not take kindly to Saras's on court demands. During this game there was some sniping about positioning between Saras & Jax, Jones, Jermaine & even Foster.

Then there were words between Foster & Jax.

In fact I was really shaking my head up until the 3rd quarter because it looked to me like the team was not only out of synch but didn't much care to even be around each other & this was between people I've never seen have problems before.

Let's deal with the Jax factor first. I have been somewhat of a supporter, I'm not in love with his game but I think he takes a bum rap at times. But I can tell you right now someone needs to yank a knot in his tail when it comes to being disgusted with being taken out of the game. The first time he was taken out last night he was so disgusted that he literally pulled away from Fred Jones who was trying to slap five to him when he was coming in. This wasn't just a small slight, I mean he left Fred hanging out there & brushed around him.

Look be disgusted at Carlisle all you want, but Fred didn't deserve that kind of treatment & I can tell you that the fans in the fieldhouse just do not like the guy.

If there is a big package that is coming down the pike I wouldn't be totally suprised to see Jax on the next train out of town, but I wouldn't be suprised to see him stay either.

As to his game, he did a great job on AK47 on defense. He did not allow him easy access to the ball & followed him cut for cut most of the night.

Offensively he was his usual, some wild shots but some hard drives that caused havok on the Jazz interior.

I just don't know where Jax is on the Pacers overall long term scheme right now & that will be almost as big a mystery as to what happens with others.

We might as well deal with Jamaal while we are at it. Well, we were treated to Mel Mel the abuser again. But this is the abuser who abuses us & not the opposition. In the second half he was just God awfull. He turned into Jamaal Iverson except for two things.

1. He couldn't hit his shot at all

2. He didn't draw any fouls

He was benched in a hurry & then came back in late in the game played some lethargic basketball & then retreated to the bench for the rest of the game. For those that watched on T.V. did they try & say he was still not feeling well? I hope they weren' trying that excuse.

Well here is where I invoke the wrath of Ragnar. I have no idea why you people hate Anthony Johnson as much as you do. He was everything you would ever want in a backup p.g. during that game. He hit his shots, he passed out assists & he shut down that Williams kid when he played him.

His timely three point shooting helped seal the game for us.

In the second half I was hoping Jamaal would not see the floor again & I wanted A.J. to finish it off.

I am both thrilled & nervous that the game was salvaged by a barrage of Austin Croshere three point shots. Thrilled because Austin knocked them down & totally destroyed the Jazz in the process, but nervous because we all know that on any given night Cro could just have as easily missed all five of his three point attempts.

But not only did he hit his shots, he fought like a warrior born down in the paint all night long fighting off men who were both taller & heavier than he was. He did not gather up loose balls that fell to the floor & called them rebounds, he fought in hand to hand combat and more often than not he prevailed.

His one offensive rebound that he gathered in a crowd & then got fouled on the putback brought the crowd to it's feet & finally woke up the locals that there was actually a game going on.

When he went to the bench he recieved a standing O from the crowd behind the bench & he deserved it.

Harrison got a DNP again. I have no idea why. I just have to assume that he must be goofing off during practices because once again here was a team that had big bodys on the floor & in this game Granger really was being shoved around by the bigger bodys on the floor.

Foster just looked lost out there & he must have been in a p!ssy mood all night because he got into it with Jax, Fred & Saras during the course of the game about positioning on the floor. I'm not sure what was up with that.

Now I didn't get a great look at the bench because he was on the other side of my direct view but when Foster fouled out & coach called Granger back in the game it looked to me like Harrison threw his hands in the air in disgust. Did anybody else see this because I don't want anybody to just go on my view because like I'm saying, I didn't have direct sight of it. But it sure looked like that from what I did see.

Overall it was a great win, as any win is, but there sure still seems to be some attitude issues that may have to be addressed.

I'm coming around on the Saras thing, however I'm curious how much of his floor general routine is coming off as bossyness. Remember he may be king in Europe but here he is still a rookie & I wonder how these guys like him barking at them like he does.

BTW, what happened to Fred? I saw him limp out of the game & go straight to the locker room & on the way out the ramp he bent over in pain. I did not see what happened to him?

I don't want to leave without saying that Jermaine O'neal once again patrolled the inside like a monster.

I'm telling you, force the guy to be the center. Only the other O'neal is going to be that much better than him.

Hicks
12-17-2005, 02:24 AM
I think you're way off about the Jamaal & Sarunas play early in the game. I think all that was was two good point guards trying to be good point guards, and that resulted in over-passing. They talked for a moment afterwards, but on TV it sure looked non-confrontational. Just two pass-first guys forgetting when it's time to actually take the shot. In this case, Sarunas screwed up.

Jermaniac
12-17-2005, 02:27 AM
Fred messed his ankle up, when he was making one of his up in the air passes. He is doubtful for tomorrow.

Peck
12-17-2005, 02:30 AM
I think you're way off about the Jamaal & Sarunas play early in the game. I think all that was was two good point guards trying to be good point guards, and that resulted in over-passing. They talked for a moment afterwards, but on TV it sure looked non-confrontational. Just two pass-first guys forgetting when it's time to actually take the shot. In this case, Sarunas screwed up.

That's why I listed this as option # 1.

1. Saras is thinking he will reward Jamaal for stealing the ball, making a great pass & giving Saras the open shot so he tries to give him the ball back.

It still was a horrid play no matter what the intent was.

Hicks
12-17-2005, 02:32 AM
Also, you mention multiple players getting crappy with one another, and many against Sarunas. I either need to know in more detail what happened, or else I have to assume at least some of it is over-analyzation from someone who is conditioned to look for it (too many hours on PD will do that to a guy). It all (or mostly) could have just been guys frustrated in the moment, but when it's done it's done. Rather than a 20-second clip from a season-long soap opera.

I'll note the exception being the Jackson not high-fiving Fred part.

cracktower
12-17-2005, 02:36 AM
Surunas does talk a lot, when he is on the floor and at times does seem a bit bossy. However, I have no idea how the other player feels about it.

one thing for sure though, he must first earn the respect of his teammates and win thier trust before he can effectively direct them.

ohh, one more thing is it just me or do you also think Surunas seems to be always in a pissy mood

Peck
12-17-2005, 02:37 AM
Also, you mention multiple players getting crappy with one another, and many against Sarunas. I either need to know in more detail what happened, or else I have to assume at least some of it is over-analyzation from someone who is conditioned to look for it (too many hours on PD will do that to a guy). It all (or mostly) could have just been guys frustrated in the moment, but when it's done it's done. Rather than a 20-second clip from a season-long soap opera.

I'll note the exception being the Jackson not high-fiving Fred part.


Could be.

But it did appear to be worse during the game than I've ever seen it in person before.

Blame Jay for my thoughts on Saras being bossy though.;) He's the one that planted that seed in my head.

Foster really was the one that caught me off guard because he really snapped at Fred Jones on a defensive set once which I just thought was odd.

Actually it made me think back to that post about Foster being wasted last summer.:buddies: :) God that was funny.

Bball
12-17-2005, 02:40 AM
Good summary.

AFAIK, exactly what happened to Freddie was never determined (at least 'how' it happened "landed awkwardly" they said). Stacy Paetz reported it was a moderate ankle sprain and his return was not likely.

As for Foster [grassy knoll]He was the one, if not only Pacers, not piling on Artest when the trade info surfaced. It seems he had something good to say about him and didn't say anything bad... But I could be recalling that wrongly. [/grassy knoll]

As for the Sarunas 'thing' and being 'bossy'....

I look at Sjax's shenagins- refusing to pass the ball in an obvious situation. The JO vs Sjax feud earlier. What you are saying now about leaving the floor disgruntled. Carlisle needs to take control of this team or management needs to do something one way or another.

Sarunas needs the support of coaching and management -and Carlisle needs to explain how it's going to be. ...unless they aren't going that direction in which case why waste his greatest talent and what he most brings to the team (and what the team could use... a real floor general)? If Sarunas is going to be the floor general then Carlisle needs to get his back. And management needs to get Carlisle's back.

If he's not lost it already... I think Carlisle is in danger of losing this team. All the pouting... bickering... shouting... etc... And that is just us here at the forum!

Am I the only one that thinks Carlisle no longer has the respect of the team or is certainly losing it?

Oh- And a thought I had tonight while watching the game. Is Walsh still enamored with players that don't truly fit any one role? Combo players... Are we using unbalanced lineups instead of developing (or acquiring) more 'traditional' players for 'traditional type lineups' as a matter of design?

-Bball

heywoode
12-17-2005, 02:41 AM
Thanks for the synopsis, peck.

When I go to games, I get way too involved and could never write such a detailed report. I'm glad someone can!

I agree with most, if not all of your post.

I'm getting tired of the Jax issues....He is really wearing out his welcome, it seems. I hope we can move him at some point, but I don't know for whom. I'm not saying this because of one bad game, I'm saying it because of about 19 bad games, and his mouth that has been around for a lot longer than that....

I think JT will get back into it, and feel like if we can shake up the lineup a little (MoRon and Jax gone) all can be well in Pacerland.

Hoop
12-17-2005, 03:22 AM
I think you're way off about the Jamaal & Sarunas play early in the game. I think all that was was two good point guards trying to be good point guards, and that resulted in over-passing. They talked for a moment afterwards, but on TV it sure looked non-confrontational. Just two pass-first guys forgetting when it's time to actually take the shot. In this case, Sarunas screwed up.
I thought the same thing Hicks, just watched the game after I got home and Me, You and Peck were all wrong.

Tins made a good pass to Saras, AK47 jumps to block Saras's shot, Saras makes a good pass to Tins, but Jackson got his hand on the ball and knocked it away from Tins, who would have had a easy layup.

Not important now, but just shows we don't always see what we thought we say.
Here's the video clip, watch it in slow motion.
http://rapidshare.de/files/9317104/SarasToTins.mpg.html (http://rapidshare.de/files/9317104/SarasToTins.mpg.html)

Peck, nice review as always.

CableKC
12-17-2005, 03:28 AM
Surunas does talk a lot, when he is on the floor and at times does seem a bit bossy. However, I have no idea how the other player feels about it.

one thing for sure though, he must first earn the respect of his teammates and win thier trust before he can effectively direct them.

ohh, one more thing is it just me or do you also think Surunas seems to be always in a pissy mood
I thought that it was a given that he was a very "talkative" type of floor general when he joined the Pacers. But what you say is valid....its hard to get used to having a guy that you have only played with for 2 months bark and yell orders at you. I'm guessing that the rest of the Pacers just aren't used to it.

Thoughts about Granger....I would like for him to play more minutes...but understand if Carlisle limits the # of minutes he plays and gives them to players like Croshere or AJ. The guy is a rookie...and despite all his talents...I would much rather ease him into the game over this season and then put him more into a 6th man role by next season. He just doesn't seem ready at this point.

Thoughts about Harrison....I'm wondering if all these DNPs for Harrison may mean something else....I would still hope that we can slowly let him develop over another season...but I wouldn't be surprised if the Hulk was somehow traded or included in some trade as trade bait. For whatever reason....he's in Carlisle's dog house. Can someone tell me....is he foul prone or worse....does stupid things to foul players?

beast23
12-17-2005, 03:29 AM
A bit about the "Saras being bossy" topic.

I'd totally defer that one to his teammates. It would be hard to gauge that unless you are around him every day and really get to know him.

The reason I say this is because I've worked with a substantial number of foreign contractors. And what I've discovered is that even after being in the States for many years, many foreigners retain the influence of their own languages when they speak English.

They may stress certain parts of sentences differently than we do. They oftentimes word things differently. In many instances, I've learned to hear "what" a foreigner has to say as opposed to "how" he says it. If that makes much sense? And then usually after an extended period of familiarity with the individual, I learn to read the individual... when he is truly angry for example, as opposed to just speaking loudly or stressing his words differently than the way a typical American would.

Don't know if this is the case or not, but it is a consideration.

CableKC
12-17-2005, 03:35 AM
Thanks for the synopsis, peck.

When I go to games, I get way too involved and could never write such a detailed report. I'm glad someone can!

I agree with most, if not all of your post.

I'm getting tired of the Jax issues....He is really wearing out his welcome, it seems. I hope we can move him at some point, but I don't know for whom. I'm not saying this because of one bad game, I'm saying it because of about 19 bad games, and his mouth that has been around for a lot longer than that....

I think JT will get back into it, and feel like if we can shake up the lineup a little (MoRon and Jax gone) all can be well in Pacerland.

I don't have as much problems with SJax.....because of his inconsistency on offense....he is either hot or not...which is a given. When he is hot...like the last game...then feed it to him. But when he is cold....like he was today...I would hope that he would either drive more to the hoop to make the shot or draw the foul ( which he is good at ) or better yet...stop continually hoisting up shot after shot. After missing the 4th 3pt shot...you would figure that it may not be a good idea to put up 2 more shots beyond the arc. He just has to recognize when he is cold and distibute it to someone who can hit a shot....the problem is that he has a tendency to try to shoot his way out of his rut. Against a team like the Jazz.....I can let it go...since we do well against them. But against a much better disciplined team....that's not going to cut it.

Peck
12-17-2005, 03:36 AM
I thought the same thing Hicks, just watched the game after I got home and Me, You and Peck were all wrong.

Tins made a good pass to Saras, AK47 jumps to block Saras's shot, Saras makes a good pass to Tins, but Jackson got his hand on the ball and knocked it away from Tins, who would have had a easy layup.

Not important now, but just shows we don't always see what we thought we say.
Here's the video clip, watch it in slow motion.
http://rapidshare.de/files/9317104/SarasToTins.mpg.html (http://rapidshare.de/files/9317104/SarasToTins.mpg.html)

Peck, nice review as always.

Yeah, Jackson did get his hand in the way. But I still claim Saras could have went up with that shot.

Will Galen
12-17-2005, 08:20 AM
Yeah, Jackson did get his hand in the way. But I still claim Saras could have went up with that shot.

I just watched it over and over for 5 minutes. Nothing is conclusive because of the angle. However,

I do agree he could have went up with it, but I think he would have gotten his shot blocked.

At first it looks like he could have just verily got the shot up, but watch RK47's right arm, if Sara's brings the ball up any earlier RK47 gets a hand on it. Sara's gets any shot blocked until he clears RK47. After that his only shot option would have been a DR.J, one hand flip from behind the basket.

Actually I think a better pass would have been to Jax.

Vicious Tyrant
12-17-2005, 08:40 AM
I can tell you now some of the players do not take kindly to Saras's on court demands. During this game there was some sniping about positioning between Saras & Jax, Jones, Jermaine & even Foster.
Is it possible players don't like it b/c a shift in power is taking place and there is some natural resistance to change? It seems to me if there is some shift in the hierarchy of the team, that's no bad thing.

indygeezer
12-17-2005, 08:50 AM
Is it possible players don't like it b/c a shift in power is taking place and there is some natural resistance to change? It seems to me if there is some shift in the hierarchy of the team, that's no bad thing.

Agree completly. Which is another reason this Artest deal has to be made ASAP . Until this is settled there will be uncertainty for everybody on the team (except Saras and JO). THat uncertainty has got to be weighing on the guys minds and making them snippy.

Get the deal done and let the guys settle down to a normal "Peck"ing order.

Unclebuck
12-17-2005, 09:02 AM
Maybe Ron was tired of putting up with all this stuff. All the internal stife.

I said this 4 weeks ago, and I'll say it again. Either make Saras the Pacers point guard, make him the starter. And what I mean by that, give him the team to run, give him the leadership, turn the team over to him. Or you might have to trade him. I don't know if he has the respect of his teammates or not, I sense he doesn't yet, but that might be for two reasons. Certain players will never allow him to gain that respect or maybe because he has not be thrust into a position of being the leader.

As far as AJ goes. Peck, I could not agree anymore than I do. He came in shut down Williams and AJ just played very well.

The Pacers point guard situation needs to be resolved, once and for all. Right now it is a mess.


Peck, I was not at the game last night, so I have no idea about the bench activity.

One thing I do know is that Slick and saras have formed a close relationship. He was interviewed by Mark and Slick right after the game, and it was obvious Slick likes the guy, and if it wasn't obvious, Mark commented to Slick something to the effect, "you two have really formed a bound" Slick said he really likes the kid, loves the way he plays, he's not quick, but he gives you everything he has.

Vicious Tyrant
12-17-2005, 09:08 AM
Maybe Ron was tired of putting up with all this stuff. All the internal stife.
Interesting thought. That would be wierd, wouldn't it? Is Jax that powerful (I assume you're talking about him)?

Unclebuck
12-17-2005, 09:10 AM
Interesting thought. That would be wierd, wouldn't it? Is Jax that powerful (I assume you're talking about him)?



I don't know, just the whole team right now. I am just guessing.

Will Galen
12-17-2005, 09:11 AM
It could be they are snippy because they know they really haven't got a good shot at the title without Ron. They've thought they were title contenders ever since they won 61 games two years ago. They've been of the mindset that they could beat anyone when healthy. Now they've lost an all star and things don't look so good.

That change in expectations could make a person snippy for quite a while.

If they get Al or Lewis for Ron they will probably have another change of view.

Kestas
12-17-2005, 09:28 AM
Tins made a good pass to Saras, AK47 jumps to block Saras's shot, Saras makes a good pass to Tins, but Jackson got his hand on the ball and knocked it away from Tins, who would have had a easy layup.


agreed. Jackson should watch his hands. It appears he (Jackson) understood his mistake, but it was already too late. clearly Tinsley was the No 1 option. Saras could try for some sort of reverse lay up, but it would be nowhere as easy as the one Tinsley would get if he caught the ball. imho..

Unclebuck
12-17-2005, 09:38 AM
It could be they are snippy because they know they really haven't got a good shot at the title without Ron. They've thought they were title contenders ever since they won 61 games two years ago. They've been of the mindset that they could beat anyone when healthy. Now they've lost an all star and things don't look so good.

That change in expectations could make a person snippy for quite a while.



Oh that is just crazy.
















Sorry, I guess I've been a little snippy the past week or so

ABADays
12-17-2005, 09:41 AM
Surunas does talk a lot, when he is on the floor and at times does seem a bit bossy. However, I have no idea how the other player feels about it.

one thing for sure though, he must first earn the respect of his teammates and win thier trust before he can effectively direct them.

ohh, one more thing is it just me or do you also think Surunas seems to be always in a pissy mood

Runi is just intense. To comment on UB's statement and relate it to a comparison I made before, it doesn't surprise me Slick loves the guy. He is another Billy Keller and Slick loved Keller.

Ragnar
12-17-2005, 11:18 AM
Hey I can admit when AJ has a decent game and last night his shooting was an asset to the team. I have said over and over again that he could be an asset if used properly. He should be the backup shooting guard right now.

Our starting lineup should be

Tins
Jones
Jack
J.O.
Cro

With the backups being

Saras
AJ
Granger
Harrison (Jermaine is going to play most of the game)
Foster

We have our second best point guard being wasted as a shooting guard. He is not a good enough defender to defend shooting guards and when he is not shooting he is just out there not really helping the team. Its not like he is running of screens being a pest to the other teams like Reggie always did. But when used as the point guard he is more valuable.

It is the exact oposite with AJ he is most properly used the way we are using Saras right now. Stand arround the three point line and wait for passes to take open shots. AJ is way to slow to defend point guard but he does a decent job on shooting guards. So switch Saras and AJ arround (except start Fred) AJ can make up for some of Saras poor D when they are in together. With the two of them shooting that should open up the middle for Harrison and Granger.

Hicks
12-17-2005, 11:39 AM
Is it possible players don't like it b/c a shift in power is taking place and there is some natural resistance to change? It seems to me if there is some shift in the hierarchy of the team, that's no bad thing.

I agree. If some of these guys don't like it, tough. I'm with Saras all the way on this unless it's proven he's just being a nasty ******* to them, but for now I'm going to stick with the idea that he's just barking orders in the same way a loud coach does, nothing more. He knows basketball like a coach does, cares about winning above stats, and to me that's far more important than the feelings of a teammate who can't get with the program of what the team is trying to do. Rookie or not, one of them is right, one of them is wrong, and I think Saras is right here. These guys could be getting ****ty about it simply because they don't take orders well, and that's their problem become the team's problem. Find some guys that are out to win games, not get theirs.

heywoode
12-17-2005, 12:06 PM
Hey I can admit when AJ has a decent game and last night his shooting was an asset to the team. I have said over and over again that he could be an asset if used properly. He should be the backup shooting guard right now.

Our starting lineup should be

Tins
Jones
Jack
J.O.
Cro

With the backups being

Saras
AJ
Granger
Harrison (Jermaine is going to play most of the game)
Foster

We have our second best point guard being wasted as a shooting guard. He is not a good enough defender to defend shooting guards and when he is not shooting he is just out there not really helping the team. Its not like he is running of screens being a pest to the other teams like Reggie always did. But when used as the point guard he is more valuable.

It is the exact oposite with AJ he is most properly used the way we are using Saras right now. Stand arround the three point line and wait for passes to take open shots. AJ is way to slow to defend point guard but he does a decent job on shooting guards. So switch Saras and AJ arround (except start Fred) AJ can make up for some of Saras poor D when they are in together. With the two of them shooting that should open up the middle for Harrison and Granger.

This sounds pretty good to me.

I wish I could figure out why Carlisle makes some of the decisions he makes. It doesn't seem that difficult. But, when it doesn't seem complicated, that is when it usually is, especially since I have no experience whatsoever with coaching and very little (compared to Carlisle) with even playing organized basketball.

Jermaniac
12-17-2005, 02:09 PM
I think Tins only hit one shot, he didnt shoot well but IMO He makes the people around him so much better. Look how much easier it was for JO last night. He gets alot of open shots for people with his driving ability, to me its clear who should be the starting PG on this team and its him.

Jermaniac
12-17-2005, 02:15 PM
I have no problem with Runi at all, I love to watch him play. But this team is run much better by Jamaal.

ChicagoJ
12-17-2005, 02:50 PM
I think Saras is over-emphasizing his vocal leadership. First he needs to establish that he's a leader *by example*.

I've got no problem with Saras eventually growing into a vocal, on-court leader. But I'm not sure he's going about it in the right way.

Gamble
12-17-2005, 02:51 PM
Is it possible players don't like it b/c a shift in power is taking place and there is some natural resistance to change? It seems to me if there is some shift in the hierarchy of the team, that's no bad thing.
This is like watching the discovery channel and seeing a pack of wolves
interact. Its my belief that the team is not use to a vocal pg. Tinsley
is as quiet as a mouse and just bites his jersey when he's mad or
tired. I like Saras bc he brings that energy to the game and hopefully
the players practice and learn their roles better. NOthing like having
high paid and low motivated workers.

Arcadian
12-17-2005, 03:03 PM
I agree with Jay. It isn't that Saras is being vocal. It is how he is going about it. Any leader first has to establish respect before they are heard.

I don't think it is horrible but I feel that Saras is coming off a little strong to his teammates. With time I don't think it will be a problem though.