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Frank Slade
12-15-2005, 09:38 PM
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(Original publication: December 15, 2005)

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. —

The Nets have been beaten in back-to-back games in embarrassing fashion over the last nights.

So today, they're left to wonder if their next loss will be a player.

The Nets' 91-83 defeat to the lowly Charlotte Bobcats before 13,363 angry fans last night came on the eve of when all NBA players who signed new contracts over the summer are eligible to be traded.

And the underachieving Nets are definitely shopping, according to several league sources. Rightfully so.

While the Bobcats saw the end of their eight-game losing streak, the Nets dropped their third in a row and fell to 9-12.

The Nets were slightly better than their ugly 94-74 loss to the Washington Wizards on Tuesday night.

But chemistry remains an issue as center Marc Jackson took a DNP and angrily declared he would welcome a trade. The remaining Nets are left to answer what the Nets are missing the most.

"Our willingness to win," Vince Carter said.

Brevin Knight led Charlotte with 25 points and, once again, the Nets' Big 3 of Richard Jefferson (25 points), Carter (22 points) and Jason Kidd (eight points, 10 assists, eight rebounds) were not enough.

And while the job security of Nets coach Lawrence Frank was not believed to be in immediate jeopardy, Nets president Rod Thorn was meeting with the third-year coach in his office nearly two hours after the game.

The Nets led by 11 in the first quarter, but fired 14 for 44 in the second half.

A Melvin Ely 3-point play and Emeka Okafor free throw with 3:22 left gave Charlotte a 76-66 lead and that was all she wrote.

Jackson, Jeff McInnis, Lamond Murray and Scott Padgett — all signed during the summer — are now trade-eligible.

The Nets are also believed to be dangling guard Zoran Planinic and their two first-round draft picks in order to procure a big body. Planinic was put on the inactive list and did not play, while Jackson and McInnis, the Nets' two main free-agent signings in the offseason, did not play.

Frank said he was searching. Jackson was steamed, nonetheless.

"If (Frank) don't think I can help the team, then maybe get rid of me for somebody you think can help the team," Jackson said. "That DNP is real crazy, man. That DNP, only happens since I've been here."

Players that would become available today who the Nets would have an interest in include Ely, Milwaukee's Dan Gadzuric and the Clippers' Chris Wilcox. Even Houston's Stromile Swift, who the Nets coveted in the off-season, would become available

But whether the Nets are willing to make a bigger deal depends on their patience level. There is a growing sentiment in the organization that Carter could be expendable if it can return an impact defensive player.


"We definitely can turn this thing around and all of the sudden, everybody will be like, 'Wow, this is a great team,' " Carter said.

The Nets haven't had that defensive enforcer since Kenyon Martin was traded to Denver two summers ago. Ironically, the Nuggets are said to be shopping Martin - who comes to the Meadowlands tomorrow night.

Collins update: Nets forward Jason Collins will undergo more tests today to gauge the inflamed peroenal nerve in his right leg. Collins has played the last two games, but continues to feel discomfort. If it continues, surgery may be an alternative.

Hmm too bad there is no impact defensive player to trade for Carter
:innocent:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051215/SPORTS01/512150344/1108

Kstat
12-15-2005, 09:41 PM
.....and we all saw how Vince just LOOOOOVES playing in structured halfcourt offense...... :laugh:

SoupIsGood
12-15-2005, 09:41 PM
Vince?

If he plays hard for us stays healthy and doesnt choke come playoff time...... hell yes.

SoupIsGood
12-15-2005, 09:42 PM
Vince?

If he plays hard for us stays healthy and doesnt choke come playoff time...... hell yes.

In other words....


hell no?

Hoop
12-15-2005, 09:48 PM
Never been a VC fan, but in his defense he's always been forced to be "the man" when I don't think he wants to be. He might be at his best being the 2nd option to JO.

Frank Slade
12-15-2005, 09:59 PM
hmm Vince Carter .. Devean George
VC or... MO Pete
VC or... peja
VC or ...hmm I can see the dilemma

Frank Slade
12-15-2005, 10:02 PM
Man, Ron and Kidd together can be scary if they are allowed to run........
Perhaps .. but what do you think about Vince..

Now I will admit I am not the biggest Vinsanity fan.. but what better offer is there?? I will take it ... I know I know structured offense.. Carlisle... .
Hey....just like in the movie "Risky Business": sometimes ..you just have to say what the F***....

Evan_The_Dude
12-15-2005, 10:07 PM
Yeah it's kinda scary how well Ron would fit on that team. I like the idea of Vince. He'd be a more reliable 2nd option scorer than Jackson. I think his ability would actually be a big help for our offense and actually help make things flow a bit. Not to mention it would sell tickets. Makes sense for both teams imo. I give it a thumbs up. We really can't do much better.

BlueNGold
12-15-2005, 10:17 PM
So Carter would start at SG and Jax shift over to SF...or start DG at SF? That would be a fortunate turn of events, but what does VC make...like 15 mill/yr?

sweabs
12-15-2005, 10:19 PM
Oh God NOOOOOOOO.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That is one of the last people I want on this team.

Frank Slade
12-15-2005, 10:23 PM
So Carter would start at SG and Jax shift over to SF...or start DG at SF? That would be a fortunate turn of events, but what does VC make...like 15 mill/yr?


Vince is $13,843,157.

Artest and Croshere work, or Jax, Foster.. although we do have the TE to use for a portion

pizza guy
12-15-2005, 10:34 PM
Vince is not afraid (unless my concept of his game is totally wrong since I don't really watch the Nets very often) to take the ball to the hoop. That is really something this offense needs. We've got plenty of guys willing to stand around, go one-on-one and shoot 3's. Not all of them are good at it either. VC would be a very nice addition to our team, IMO. Not to mention, it would create some excitement among the fanbase because Vinsanity is an exciting player.

indygeezer
12-15-2005, 10:43 PM
Good point about driving to the hoop.

And just think of the dunk competitions we'd have in pre-game warm-ups between Vince and Fred. Hell that might be worth the price of a upper level tix right there.


But no....I wanna rebounder.

Shade
12-15-2005, 10:50 PM
I could live with this deal. :nod:

Jaydawg2270
12-15-2005, 10:51 PM
VC in indianna :D

Jaydawg2270
12-15-2005, 10:55 PM
Vince Has Changed Back to the way he played earlier in his career. I would love to trade for him.

themachotaco
12-15-2005, 10:58 PM
Never been a VC fan, but in his defense he's always been forced to be "the man" when I don't think he wants to be. He might be at his best being the 2nd option to JO.

I think that this is the most significant point of the thread, and why Vince could succeed here. Has he ever played with a significant big man? I'm not sure that Bosh counts as Vince didn't really have his heart in it the last year in Toronto (which certainly is a knock against him, to be sure).

He seems like he would be a good fit with JO, though.

Somehow couldn't you see Freddie being included in this trade and just high-flying all over the place in NJ? Someone said in the last day or two how much happier (and a better player) Fred would be in a run-n-gun system. I definitely agree.

cracktower
12-15-2005, 11:00 PM
Oh God NOOOOOOOO.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That is one of the last people I want on this team.

Too much Raptor memories ;)

Diesel_81
12-15-2005, 11:02 PM
I also could live with this deal. Your not going to find a better second option than Carter. He's one of those few guys that I put into the catagory of being unguardable.The problem with him is he makes alot of money but if he plays to his potential then he's worth every cent and a even bigger problem is he tends to coast at times. We saw it last year in Toronto then he went to New Jersey and really was on his game. This year he seems he's holding back and not being aggressive. Carter is not a perfect player but we all know we aren't going to get a perfect player back for Ron.

pizza guy
12-15-2005, 11:03 PM
Random Mr. T "Fact of the Day":


Quote:
Mr.T once punched Chuck Norris at the exact moment he roundhouse kicked Mr.T in the chest. the result was the 80's.

Probably the funniest one I've seen.

pizza guy
12-15-2005, 11:07 PM
OK, so, just for kicks and giggles, I went to RealGM to check this out. Artest+Pollard works for Carter. In a freaking heartbeat guys. The blink of an eye.

Jaydawg2270
12-15-2005, 11:14 PM
OK, so, just for kicks and giggles, I went to RealGM to check this out. Artest+Pollard works for Carter. In a freaking heartbeat guys. The blink of an eye.

I did the same thing, I also tried to throw Aj in along with those two and it still works :)

ssmall
12-15-2005, 11:16 PM
:D

Hicks
12-15-2005, 11:17 PM
OK, I need to keep reminding myself "think small" in terms of what we'll get for Ron, but damn this idea has me excited. I can't let myself believe it's what's on deck, but it's hard for some reason. Just imagining him stepping in with JO is very exciting to me. No way does this happen... right?

Evan_The_Dude
12-15-2005, 11:21 PM
I doubt that it'll happen, but 15 for 15 makes near perfect sense for both teams.

Shade
12-15-2005, 11:23 PM
Hell, I'd trade Ron and Jack for Vince.

hoopburners
12-15-2005, 11:29 PM
if we trade for vc, can we also get their draft pick/s?

Hoop
12-15-2005, 11:31 PM
The Nets didn't give up much to get Carter in the first place and they ain't going anywhere with him. Maybe they'll look at it that way?

Bball
12-15-2005, 11:33 PM
Whatever the deal turns out to be, I'm just going to try and remain cautiously optimistic until then.

I bet this trade is some of Walsh's most interesting (and difficult) negotiations in a long time. He ultmately HAS to make a deal happen and the person on the other end of the line knows it. His biggest leverage is creating a bidding war and priming the market. But if someone has something that Walsh really wants, Walsh isn't really in the drivers' seat. Hopefully, there will be two or more teams (wanting Artest enough and) ultimately willing to part with something Walsh wants, or he can at least create the impression there is. At least in that way he gets some leverage.

"Good" Ron offers a WHOLE lot to a team. But "Bad" Ron has to temper other teams' responses.

-Bball

sweabs
12-15-2005, 11:44 PM
Maybe I should explain why I don't want Vince.

1) If you want to talk about a "lazy" basketball player, then let's talk about Vince. I'll never forget what he did to the Raptors, and I can never come to respect a guy who willingly admitted that he didn't always give 100% on the floor. That "laziness" also shows up in his game at times, when he starts to fall in love with his jump shot and stops driving to the hole. He turns into an Allan Houston clone awful fast.

2) He likes to turn it "on" and "off". Case in point: remember when he first came to New Jersey? He was actually playing defense. If you've watched him this year, his defense has been non-existent (hence, why NJ is looking for that defensive presence). Vince has that tendency to become complacent during the game, and usually results in no defense and settling for jump shots on the offensive end.

3) Vince is a wimp. I've seen this guy fall to the ground way too many times and put on a great show wincing, and crying in agony only to play a couple games later. It's almost like he wants the crowd to think he's hurt, and gets some sort of thrill by hearing the horrified gasps from the crowd as he's on the ground. Yes, I'm probably exaggerating, but there is no denying that Vince is soft, and can't stay healthy for that matter!

4) I hate his demeanor on the court. This is the thing that bothers me most about Vince. He has become so wrapped up in his "all-star status", and loves to just kid/play around with all his "all-star friends" on the court. I'm sorry, but when my team is playing, I like them to see the opponents as the enemies for that 48 minutes. I don't want them kidding around during a game, and commenting on how lovely the family looked on the weekend. Vince is renowned for this behaviour, and it's just not a winning mentality in my books. Even when his team is losing, he'll still be out there joking around with the opponents as if it's no big deal. It just really bothers me, and I know it bothered the Raptors fans who had to deal with it for too many years.

I'm sure there is more, but I could go on for days. Maybe I'm biased, maybe I'm not; but I just can't forgive or forget what he did during his tenure here in Toronto.

The only way I'd take him is to ship him off again (since he does have higher trade value than Ron!).

joeyd
12-15-2005, 11:53 PM
A healthy Vince Carter would bring even more excitement to Conseco every night. Suddenly, a game like Pacers vs. Bobcats would become much more exciting to me.

PaceBalls
12-16-2005, 12:54 AM
If you guys think Jackson or Ron jacks up alot of bad shots... well wait till vince goes 12-40 fgs and 1-10 3pters on a consistant basis with no defensive effot. I suppose it would be consistant until Rick never called a play for him, then benched him, then Vince gave up and asked for a trade.

I mean really when I think of Vince, I think of 12-40 fgs, with the majority of them long jumpshots on ISO plays.
no thanks, we have enough of those players.

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-16-2005, 03:29 AM
Vince is the type of player we need on this team. Alot of games you see all our players rollling off for jumpshots whereas Vince can take it straight to the hoop. It will add another dimension to our offense and will take weight off Jermaine. Vince is capable of gettin 24 points per game. Hes also decent in other departments.

His defense is not the best but it is better then other players I have heard to be offered.

I dont see where people are getting that he cannot have good shooting percentages when although not the best but still decent, he is shooting 45%. (Think about how much he has to do for the offense and that percentage will seem better)

Heres his stats for this year:

PPG: 21.5
RPG: 5.5
APG: 3.6
SPG: 1.21
BPG: .79

FG%: .45
FT%: .81
3P%: .35

MPG: 36

FreshPrince22
12-16-2005, 03:36 AM
The Nets would be stupid to trade Vince for anything but a big man. J Kidd and RJ can hold it down on the perimiter, all they need is a decent role player (three point specialist) at that spot, and a solid big man next to Nenad.

Anthem
12-16-2005, 03:51 AM
All I know is that when Vince and Ron go head to head, Vince gets owned.

I'd rather send Ron west.

Will Galen
12-16-2005, 04:17 AM
[QUOTE=J_2_Da_IzzO]

Heres Vince's stats for this year versus Al Harrington's.

PPG: 21.5.....17.7
RPG: 5.5.......8.1
APG: 3.6.......3.4
SPG: 1.21.....1.37
BPG: .79....... .32

FG%: .45...... .453
FT%: .81...... .678
3P%: .35...... .296

MPG: 36....... 37.4

Naptown Seth
12-16-2005, 06:55 AM
Oh God NOOOOOOOO.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That is one of the last people I want on this team.
Yeah, who want's another legitimate All-Star on the team when we could trade for "Air" Peterson and a poor man's AUstin Croshere!!!11!1!11!4!!11

Naptown Seth
12-16-2005, 06:58 AM
[quote=J_2_Da_IzzO]

Heres Vince's stats for this year versus Al Harrington's.

PPG: 21.5.....17.7
RPG: 5.5.......8.1
APG: 3.6.......3.4
SPG: 1.21.....1.37
BPG: .79....... .32

FG%: .45...... .453
FT%: .81...... .678
3P%: .35...... .296
MPG: 36....... 37.4
It's been determined that stats (aka production) mean nothing. All that matters is if the player looks "pretty" when he plays. Career 28% 3 point shooter? Psssh....who cares??? All that matters is he's got a purty release.

Naptown Seth
12-16-2005, 07:07 AM
As for the deal, I'd probably do it, but I'm not so sure Walsh or Bird would.
Carter turns 29 next month. Not yet old, but with his past injuries andquestionable desire, it makes you wonder how much longer he'll be playing basketball. He's also got questionable defense, which is a big no no.

The good side of Carter is, when he's playing to his fullest ability, he's got Kobe and T-Mac level talent. He played to his fullest ability last year with the Nets, and had a phenomonal season - 27.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.7 apg, .462 fg%, .817 ft%, .425 3%.

So the question is - which Vince would we be getting? And if it's the "great" Vince, how long does he play at that level? Would coming to a legitimate winning team raise his desire level? And how much would paying with an All-Star big man help his game?

I'd be willing to take a chance on Carter for the simple fact that, if he plays to his ufllest ability, he's a superior player to Artest which arguably makes us a better team.

sweabs
12-16-2005, 10:55 AM
Yeah, who want's another legitimate All-Star on the team when we could trade for "Air" Peterson and a poor man's AUstin Croshere!!!11!1!11!4!!11

Yeah, because I clearly said I wanted that deal as my first choice. [/sarcasm]

I listed several reasons why I wouldn't want Vince on this team - go ahead and read them and grow up.

Rytas_Jega
12-16-2005, 11:05 AM
4) I hate his demeanor on the court. This is the thing that bothers me most about Vince. He has become so wrapped up in his "all-star status", and loves to just kid/play around with all his "all-star friends" on the court.

Maybe he will change his demeanor in the near future. It seems he is not going to participate in ASG this season.

PacerFan31
12-16-2005, 04:41 PM
Personally I'd be VERY pleased with Vince.

Naptown Seth
12-16-2005, 05:09 PM
Carter at his best isnt even close to Kobe or T-Mac.

I like carters explosivness, from the few games he has watched, but I dont like his jump shot.


And please dont throw some stat out that shows me his shooting percentage over the last year.
And why do you say this? I back up my claims with facts, now let's see you do the same for once instead of just going with the popular opinion.

Vince Carter, playing to his fullest capacity, is on a near Kobe or McGrady-level. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know basketball. He's a near unstoppable scorer, as good a penetrator as anyone, he has a very good jump shot and respectable 3 point shot. He's a well above average rebounder, due to his leaping ability. He passes the ball well, picks up a good number of assists. And as important as anything, he defends reasonably well.
Vince Carter, in his rookie year, single-handedly beat us when we were arguably the best team in the league. By the way, if I'm not mistaken, this was also the game in which he completely embarassed the entire Pacer's defense with one of the greatest in-game dunks in NBA history. http://north.mpls.k12.mn.us/sites/2494959b-1ae6-4208-baa3-05c1ee14049f/uploads/Multimedia_-_NBA_Greatest_Dunks_-_Vince_Carter_3.avi
In his 3rd season he nearly single-handedly took his team to the Eastern Conference Finals, losing by 1 point in game 7 to the eventual-NBA Finalist Philadelphia 76ers.
There were back-to-back games vs the Nets last year in which Vince Carter absolutely destroyed us.
Vince isn't quite as good as Kobe, but he's every bit as good as McGrady. He's just as skilled and even more athletic. Sure he has questionable heart, but how much of that was Vince and how much was it the Toronto fans turning on him? It's funny, pre-Toronto I never recalled the UNC Vince having his heart questioned. Havbn't really heard the post-Toronto Vince's heart questioned. Actually, I never even heard the pre-injury Toronto Vince's heart questioned.
I tend to think the Raptors and their sorry excuse for a franchise and fans, were the true problem, not Vince Carter.

SoupIsGood
12-16-2005, 05:32 PM
At his very best, I could buy a near-Kobe level (emphasis on near). Thing is, he's not at his very best that often.

Naptown Seth
12-16-2005, 05:38 PM
At his very best, I could buy a near-Kobe level (emphasis on near). Thing is, he's not at his very best that often.
I don't know. He was at his best last year with the Nets for a full 50 games + playoffs. He's not quite as good this year but he's still very good. Here in Indiana, he'd have the added motivation of playing for something, as well as a great sidekick big man in Jermaine.

pizza guy
12-16-2005, 05:50 PM
When has he ever had a big man to play with? Jermaine would be his first legitimate force underneath, and the two of them could work wonders together. I'm all for the Carter deal.

SoupIsGood
12-16-2005, 05:54 PM
When has he ever had a big man to play with? Jermaine would be his first legitimate force underneath, and the two of them could work wonders together. I'm all for the Carter deal.

Bosh

Naptown Seth
12-16-2005, 06:15 PM
Bosh
They only played in 83 games together,tops. And those 83 games were the first 83 of Bosh's career, back when he was still learning the NBA ropes and wasn't half the player he is today.

SoupIsGood
12-16-2005, 06:19 PM
They only played in 83 games together,tops. And those 83 games were the first 83 of Bosh's career, back when he was still learning the NBA ropes and wasn't half the player he is today.

Yeah I know he was still young, it was just the first thing to came in mind.

aceace
12-16-2005, 06:24 PM
All I know is that when Vince and Ron go head to head, Vince gets owned.

I'd rather send Ron west.I agree.... but if NJ is willing to give up the farm to get RA then you got to go with what improves your team. I would need VC,1st rnd pick and L.Murray for RA,AJ and Pollard. It works according to RealGM

timid
12-16-2005, 07:09 PM
I would do this in a heartbeat. What better deal is out there??

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-16-2005, 08:01 PM
I would do this in a heartbeat. What better deal is out there??

There isnt a better deal so I really dont know the arguement. I cant understand how people can love bringing players like Mo Pete and Pietrus but be so against Vince.

If we got Vince we would once again be a legitimate championship contender again.

Last year when Vince played SF for Nets he was getting 30 points a game and was player of the month on one occasion. This is what we could get from him playing SF and putting Jackson back at SG or back up SG/SF.

With Artest we had the best Forward combo with him and JO but with Vince and JO we still would have the best combo in the NBA and an even bigger offensive threat whilst obviously losing a bit of defense but we showed we can play defense without Artest.

He would also add something else to this team in that he always looks to take it strong to the basket....we have no players that can do that. Imagine how difficult it would be for teams to control JO and Vince whilst being fed by Tinsley and Saranus.

This is the best deal we can get and I pray that it works out.

tadscout
12-16-2005, 08:09 PM
There isnt a better deal so I really dont know the arguement. I cant understand how people can love bringing players like Mo Pete and Pietrus but be so against Vince.

If we got Vince we would once again be a legitimate championship contender again.

Last year when Vince played SF for Nets he was getting 30 points a game and was player of the month on one occasion. This is what we could get from him playing SF and putting Jackson back at SG or back up SG/SF.

With Artest we had the best Forward combo with him and JO but with Vince and JO we still would have the best combo in the NBA and an even bigger offensive threat whilst obviously losing a bit of defense but we showed we can play defense without Artest.

He would also add something else to this team in that he always looks to take it strong to the basket....we have no players that can do that. Imagine how difficult it would be for teams to control JO and Vince whilst being fed by Tinsley and Saranus.

This is the best deal we can get and I pray that it works out.

Ummm... How do you really know what real deals have been offered or not? Are you Donnie?!?!

Tom White
12-16-2005, 08:55 PM
Guys, I hate to rain on the Vince parade, but when I think of New Jersey possibly trading VC, these things come to my mind.

Wouldn't you think they would prefer to send him out west, to a team they do not play as often?

Isn't their greatest need a strong front court presence?

Somehow, I just see them being more open to a trade with a team like Denver. Perhaps for Nene (If they are willing to wait until next year for him to heal up.), or for a return of K-Mart. I know that last part may seem strange, given the way Martin left New Jersey, but if the Pacers can consider Harrington, then......

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-16-2005, 09:08 PM
Ummm... How do you really know what real deals have been offered or not? Are you Donnie?!?!

If you can come with a better player then Vince that is a VERY POSSIBLE trade scenario I would be suprised. Pierce, maybe.

Vince is an all star player that is a 20+ scorer and also adds a few assists, rebounds and steals.

tadscout
12-16-2005, 09:20 PM
If you can come with a better player then Vince that is a VERY POSSIBLE trade scenario I would be suprised. Pierce, maybe.

Vince is an all star player that is a 20+ scorer and also adds a few assists, rebounds and steals.

You didn't get my point... you were talking as if you knew every offer available and this was the best... so I just figured you had to be DW, since he's the only one with that information.

Gamble
12-16-2005, 11:49 PM
This trade being in the East boils down to can you still beat them
and with VC i think we can.