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View Full Version : Anyone else have a growing concern about what we can get back for Artest?



CableKC
12-15-2005, 03:46 PM
Although we are in the 1st day of making any real trades for players signed in the offseason.....I am growing concerned that the Pacers are going to end up with something similiar to the Warriors "Spree for 3 crap players" deal a couple of years ago.

Here's my reasoning:

1 ) We are getting reports that the Pacers are asking for too much. Although the reported Mavs official's comments that the Pacers are asking for too much is the only comment that I can find, is it hard to believe that this is Walsh's positon against any opposing GM?
2 ) Reported comments from various Coaches and officials that they are not willing to part with solid starters that we would likely want in return or expect for Artest ( such as Peja or Odom )
3 ) The best reported rumors by a news organization ( and I'm not internet rumors ) that has surfaced is the Toronto / Pacers rumor about Artest ( + filler? ) going to Toronto for MoPete, filler and a 1st round pick.
4 ) Comments from GMs saying that Artest is a great player....but carries too much baggage and therefore a huge risk ( for the season and to team chemistry ) to give up the proven talent that Walsh is likely asking for. Although one can look at this as a tactic to drive down Artest's market value......the GMs that are making comments like this.....like Ainge or Zeke....aren't saying anything that isn't true.
5 ) If Walsh is truly starting from the standpoint that he wants to get back young players with potential, draft picks, no huge@ss contracts and no veterans , then he is limiting what opposing GMs can offer for Artest.

Although these are all reported rumors and comments from the media, that we should trust in what Walsh does and have learned that we should not believe anything until the deal is done.....I have a sinking feeling that Walsh is approaching this from the standpoint that EVERYONE wants Artest and because of that he believes that we are in a stronger negotiating position then we really are.

I don't know what Walsh is truly asking for in return....but a deal that fits all of Walsh's likely trade demands may not be realistic. We can't approach this from the standpoint that simply because Artest a top 10-15 player that every GM is going to offer a player to the Pacers that they don't want to really give up....even if its the team's 2nd best player ( like Josh Howard or Lamar Odom ). The reality is that because Artest a player that single-handedly brought down the entire Pacers Organzation and if he did it to a team like the Pacers....then he's perfectly capable of doing it to another team. On top of that...it doesn't help that Artest has publically repeated that he doesn't want to be a Pacer anymore.

I think that what Walsh says is true......there are 15-20 GMs that have contacted the Pacers about Artest...but I don't think that he is getting the type of offers that he wants. Its becoming frightfulling clear that opposing GMs would want to get their hands on a player like Artest....because of the very reward that he brings....but because of the high risk....they are simply unwilling to pay the high price that Walsh is asking for to much to get him.

If Walsh is able to get a deal that meets 2 of the requirements that he wants for Artest ( such as any 2 combinations of young players, draft picks, veteran players, no huge@ss contracts ) ....then I would hope that he pulls the trigger.

Obviously Walsh is the best at what he does and for all I know....this maybe part of his negotiating tactics.....where he's really aiming for ( and actually hitting ) something lower while setting his sights on something higher.The longer Artest remains inactive on the Pacers roster......the greater a distraction this becomes for the playesr.....the more likely that we will see more of these "Toronto to Artest" crap trade rumors being reported.....all of which increases the chance that we will have to crawl back to Zeke and accept what he has put on the table.

Doug in CO
12-15-2005, 03:50 PM
I have said all along - that you wil never get anythinbg of value for Artest - especially when he does this crap to bring his trade value down. I would settle for Al Harrington or Peja and an expring contract.

But that might be shooting too high.

REALLY scared at what we will get back.

Shade
12-15-2005, 03:52 PM
I'm a little concerned, sure. But I think someone will step up and take the gamble, most likely a team on the cusp.

Shade
12-15-2005, 03:52 PM
If we can get John Starks, Chris Mills and Terry Cummings, then I'll be pretty happy.

I hope we get Odom just to **** you off... :tongue: :devil:

Harmonica
12-15-2005, 03:53 PM
It's called the negotiation process.

Kegboy
12-15-2005, 04:00 PM
I have confidence we'll get something. This is a different situation than GS, we're not desperate, and Donnie is too smart to take absolute crap back. I think we'll get somebody who can contribute, albeit probably off the bench, and if we're really lucky, Donnie will hit the jackpot again a la Dale for JO.

Arcadian
12-15-2005, 04:04 PM
At this point I don't care what we get back. I am just thrilled that we are finally moving on.

I am fairly optimistic on what we will get back, though.

CableKC
12-15-2005, 04:06 PM
I have said all along - that you wil never get anythinbg of value for Artest - especially when he does this crap to bring his trade value down. I would settle for Al Harrington or Peja and an expring contract.

But that might be shooting too high.

REALLY scared at what we will get back.

I wrote the post cuz I'm an eternal Pessimist, a realist and I believe that God hates the Pacers and Pacerfans.

Ignoring all of his baggage....Artest really is a difference maker....he is capable of turning a team that is on the "cusp" into a team that can win it all. Yesterday...while I was mulling and salivating at the possiblity that we may trade for a player like Pietrus.....I started looking at it from the view of the other team. If we are to even 1/2 believe that Artest wants to be the top dog on offense.....then what does it mean for a "playoff cusp" team like the Warriors or the Nuggets? I came to the conclusion that the real damage that Artest will do isn't ruining an entire organization from the inside out....its that Artest is a force that is capable of messing up team chemistry. What happens when Artest complains about where he stands in the pecking order on offense? This stuff can seriously mess up a team that is looking to build on what they have.

The only way such risks is going to be worth it is if the asking price isn't as high as Walsh sets. I'm not saying that we should settle for a deal like the Toronto MoPete deal....but I hope that Walsh is able lower his asking price. I really believe that we are just a few healthy role players away from making ( at least ) a somewhat acceptable run at the Playoffs this season and feel that Artest is capable of bringing in the type of backup/roleplayers that we need. If it doesn't work...we can always blowup the team and build it around JONeal/Sarunas/Foster/Croshere/Granger during the offseason.

CableKC
12-15-2005, 04:08 PM
I'm a little concerned, sure. But I think someone will step up and take the gamble, most likely a team on the cusp.
Your avatar is the best description of why I feel that we will not get back the type of player that many of you are hoping for.

BillS
12-15-2005, 04:26 PM
The thing is, this could easily turn into a case where someone steps up to get him just to make sure a rival does NOT step up to get him.

There's always that nagging doubt that he might be able to hold it together for one good run - and you don't want that to happen against <i>you</i>.

I'm not worried because these things follow a pattern - the first offers are the lowball ones and then the bidding gets serious.

And as far as Donnie saying he only wants young players with potential - I consider that a GM blowing smoke up everybody's donkey.

Grant
12-15-2005, 04:39 PM
I think there is WAAAAAY to much interest to not get a solid deal for him.

Look, you only need 2 or 3 serious bidders to drive the stakes up. Donnie probably has told everybody in the league that he will deal Artest by a certain time, say December 21st at Noon.

When they get closer to Donnie's deadline, someone will overpay. The Pacers won't get a top 15 guy, but trust me, they won't get screwed over either.

heywoode
12-15-2005, 04:55 PM
I don't feel like we will get much for Mo-Ron, but I'm just setting my expectations low so I won't be disappointed...

The thought that keeps popping into my head is that a lot of people are saying that Mo-Ron is a 'difference maker' type player who could move a team that is either on the cusp or already contending for a title into SERIOUS title contention...I don't see that. He isn't going to change.

If a team gets deep into the playoffs, he will buckle like he always does.

GM's interested in acquiring Artest, please disregard what I just typed...

Knucklehead Warrior
12-15-2005, 05:06 PM
The thing is, this could easily turn into a case where someone steps up to get him just to make sure a rival does NOT step up to get him.

There's always that nagging doubt that he might be able to hold it together for one good run - and you don't want that to happen against <i>you</i>.

I'm not worried because these things follow a pattern - the first offers are the lowball ones and then the bidding gets serious.

And as far as Donnie saying he only wants young players with potential - I consider that a GM blowing smoke up everybody's donkey.
YEP. People a lot smarter than us are already figuring this out.

BillS
12-15-2005, 05:11 PM
YEP. People a lot smarter than us are already figuring this out.

Hmmph. Ain't <i>nobody</i> smarter than me.


:lol:

BlueNGold
12-15-2005, 05:16 PM
I am not concerned about some of the comments flying around right now. They really mean nothing at all. At most, there is a great deal of posturing going on....and anytime there is a big sale, the customers come...even if the items are on clearance. Artest's salary is less than half of his value on the market...and everyone knows they may be able to pick him up at a low price packaged with, perhaps one of the better PG's in the league.

Some GM's will think they will get a few good strong years out of Artest where he shuts down the Lebron's of the league, gets them quite a few more wins, and maybe, just maybe, puts more fans in the seats....then at worst they can trade him...and his value might be significantly higher.

CableKC
12-15-2005, 06:55 PM
I am not concerned about some of the comments flying around right now. They really mean nothing at all. At most, there is a great deal of posturing going on....and anytime there is a big sale, the customers come...even if the items are on clearance. Artest's salary is less than half of his value on the market...and everyone knows they may be able to pick him up at a low price packaged with, perhaps one of the better PG's in the league.
Some GM's will think they will get a few good strong years out of Artest where he shuts down the Lebron's of the league, gets them quite a few more wins, and maybe, just maybe, puts more fans in the seats....then at worst they can trade him...and his value might be significantly higher.
Me thinks that you are suggesting that we ship out Tinsley as well?

CableKC
12-16-2005, 03:46 AM
I know that negotiations don't happen overnight.....but the longer this stuff drags out...the less calls are going to come in.....the less likely other GMs will be patient and move on to make moves with other teams....and more likely that we will end up going back to Zeke for the AD+crap deal.

I want this to end so that we can move on.

Didn't some insider say that Walsh would deal Artest by the weekend?

Bball
12-16-2005, 04:01 AM
I know that negotiations don't happen overnight.....but the longer this stuff drags out...the less calls are going to come in.....the less likely other GMs will be patient and move on to make moves with other teams....and more likely that we will end up going back to Zeke for the AD+crap deal.

I want this to end so that we can move on.

Didn't some insider say that Walsh would deal Artest by the weekend?

That was put out there... somewhere... Take it for what it's worth. It could be spin to make sure anyone who wants to get in the game makes their phone call.

As far as this lasting until today...
It's not really dragging that much. The initial round of calls had to be fielded and I'm sure some were more serious than others. All probably offered garbage. Some (hopefully not all) probably had no intention of offering more. Once those are sorted out then another round has to begin. And Walsh has to get the news out he's getting offers. The best thing for us is the report someone is considering giving up a past All Star- not because that might be true but because that might cause some peripherial players to make another call and up their offer.

And then maybe Walsh then inquires about a counter offer... "Yeah, we might be interested in that if we could get X as well. What if we add Pacer X to the trade?" or "What if we throw in Pacer X, then would you consider taking Artest for the guy we are wanting?"

Then imagine that kind of interplay with more than one team... and then consider those teams may have counter offers (maybe they want Tinsley and Foster instead of Gill and Samaki?).

With all the teams in the NBA, that's a lot to do in a couple of days. Especially, when you're not in a position of power or aren't shopping a Tim Duncan. Walsh has to create a bit of an 'artificial market' for Artest and do his best to get a bidding war started if it is at all possible.

....Of course I am speculating all of the above so take it for what I am charging for it ;)


.02
-Bball

Hoop
12-16-2005, 04:06 AM
Anyone else have a growing concern about what we can get back for Artest?

Yes, I'm scared to death we're going not going to get ***** for him.

Jose Slaughter
12-16-2005, 04:31 AM
I'm not worried about it at all.

I think Walsh & Bird have a list of young guys that they think will develope into sonething special in the next 3 or 4 years.

They might only be in the early portion of their rookie contracts right now so their salaries arn't going to come anywhere close to what Artest makes. They just need to settle on the other players involved so that they get the guy they want.

One other thing to consider. The player(s) they are targeting might not be a 2/3. That would mean they would need to work out a 2nd deal that would be annouced at the same time. This is remote I know but it could be the case. Most of us are aware that Artest was just the tip of the ice berg as far as team chemistry is concerned. I would guess TPTB are fully aware of that as well.

Anthem
12-16-2005, 04:55 AM
One other thing to consider. The player(s) they are targeting might not be a 2/3. That would mean they would need to work out a 2nd deal that would be annouced at the same time. This is remote I know but it could be the case. Most of us are aware that Artest was just the tip of the ice berg as far as team chemistry is concerned. I would guess TPTB are fully aware of that as well.
Agreed. If Granger's going to become everything we think he is, we don't want too many good players in front of him. He needs minutes.