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View Full Version : One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense



Chauncey
12-15-2005, 12:56 PM
The Pacers do not enjoy the offensive system Carlisle runs. I know for the most part, they love Carlisle as their coach and you can't throw too much criticism towards a guy thats done as good of a job as he has, but its obvious to me that the guys simply don't "enjoy" playing right now.

Here's what I've learned in business and I whole-heartedly think that this holds true in the world of sports as well:

1. You have to have talented people working for and with you.

2. You have to have "buy-in" from those same talented people.

3. When those same people have ideas of their own, at times you have to try them even if the way you do things is working very well.

Right now I think Carlisle has a significant amount of talent available to him. I also think that, other than Ron, the team buys into his concepts, especially on defense.

The problem is that I don't think he's "given" enough on the offensive end to make the players feel like they have some ownership and responsibility for the offense. There's a big difference between, "doing what the coach says and its working" and "We're really clicking on offense right now."

There's going to have to be some give and take on this team, especially if others aren't involved in the Artest deal. To get the most out of guys like Tinsley and Jackson, Rick has to open things up. He has to trust that they can clamp down on defense without slowing down the game offensively on EVERY possession.

There's no doubt that Ron's been a HUGE problem for the Pacers, not only this year, not only last year, but since day one. But thats not the only problem right now and Rick needs to recognize that before this team has to scrap everything and rebuild.

Shade
12-15-2005, 12:59 PM
I agree, the offense needs to open up. Ron won't be the last to complain about Rick's offense, you can count on that.

Hicks
12-15-2005, 01:07 PM
That 61-win offense vs Detroits defense is half the reason we lost the ECF (the other half being Detroit was just that good, but our offense was feeding their already terrific D; hence the 60s final scores).

Hicks
12-15-2005, 01:10 PM
Yeah, I never said a single thing bad about the offense until this week. :rolleyes:

Hicks
12-15-2005, 01:14 PM
Fun, I dont remember saying that "you" didnt

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yeah, I can insert poinless similes as well as the next person.

There were all of two of three people who didnt like the offense, and even they werent opposed to it.

Now Ron comes out, and about 100,000 people are opposed to it.

13 to 1. Guess you win.

....

Moving on, read what you wrote again

"I do hate our micro-managed offense, and I do wish we would open it up, but I find it funny that no one has a problem with it until Artest comes out and says something, and now everyone is saying "Fire Rick"."

Now how on earth did I get the impression that I did previously? Care to be civil, or just try to one up me?

pizza guy
12-15-2005, 01:15 PM
The offense, when run properly works. Set plays are designed to get someone open. If we have players who care more about the team than themselves, the offense is a thing of beauty. All it takes is unselfish players and a willingness to move the ball, and move without the ball.

That's one thing I've noticed a severe drop-off in since Reggie left. Motion. With Reggie, there's no one setting screens for anyone, no one running around the baseline is circles to and from the backcourt. In a set offense, you need motion, you need people who will work to get open, not wait for someone else to create.

Chauncey
12-15-2005, 01:17 PM
No, the reason we lost is because they were clearly a better team.

I do hate our micro-managed offense, and I do wish we would open it up, but I find it funny that no one has a problem with it until Artest comes out and says something, and now everyone is saying "Fire Rick".

Im just waiting for "firerickcarlisle.com"

See, thats not my intention at all. I think Rick is an excellent coach and I wouldn't even consider firing him before the end of next season.

I just believe for this team to take the next step, without Ron Artest, they need to get the guys having SOME fun on offense. Its far too workman-like and professional right now. They need some room to freelance and some new sets to run.

Edit: To add on to this thought..you have to keep in mind that this is a team that went from devastated from losing the ECF to devastated after the brawl to devastated because the teammate they supported is abandoning them....Rick has to help them enjoy playing basketball again.

Unclebuck
12-15-2005, 01:21 PM
I read things like they need to "open up" the offense. What in the heck does that mean.

There are only two types of halfcourt offense run in the NBA. Read and react type offense or set play type offense. Clearly Rick runs a set play type offense.

Flip Saunders, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Byron Scott to name a few run a read and react type offense. Ask the Laker fans how that is working. But to run a read and react type offense you have to have very smart players.

Hicks
12-15-2005, 01:23 PM
Sorry, I didnt mean to hurt your feelings. Guess you didnt want anyone else to be able to use any similes. I remember that in the future....

You're being a child about it. I never said what smilies you should use. I rolled my eyes when I read what you wrote, and it fit with what I said. You decided to throw that in my face and then get click-happy in returning the same smilie. Throwing a little tantrum instead of just getting to my point.


I was being general, I guess you missed that point. ANd yes, it wasnt no one. It was all of one or two people.

Put I wont go to much in detail, you may just take it as me "one-upping" you.

When you say no one, I take it as no one. And get a grip.

PacerMan
12-15-2005, 01:25 PM
First off, there are about 99% MORE businesses where the boss calls the shots. End of story. And they run just fine.
Secondly, Rick has said, ON MANY OCCASIONS, that he would like to open things up. But that requires DISCIPLINE and GOOD DECISIONS from your ball handlers and shooters. THEY HAVE NOT PROVEN THEMSELVES CONSISTANTLY CAPABLE OF THAT TO THIS POINT. (why do you think they've been down on Tins anyway?????????)
When and IF they ever get it. I expect we'll see a much more pedal to the metal offense.
Till then............

Shade
12-15-2005, 01:25 PM
Tinsley being out severely hinders the offense as well. We're pretty much stuck into a half court offense when AJ is running the point. I think we'd be running a little more if Tins were out there.

Chauncey
12-15-2005, 01:29 PM
I read things like they need to "open up" the offense. What in the heck does that mean.

.

It means that if Carlisle doesn't give a little on his end, this won't be the last player openly stating that he doesn't want to play for him. He's losing "buy-in" by not taking the players' opinions seriously.

As it affects the actual offensive gameplan, all it takes is getting a few more pick-and-roll sets in the offense..hell thats like candy for basketball players. Players relish the opportunity to run the pick-and-roll...they want to get a mismatch out on the wing or post up on a smaller man or get open jumpers.

The worst part about it is that with Tinsley and JO, you have a perfect pick-and-roll tandem and I never see it....

BillS
12-15-2005, 01:35 PM
This team simply doesn't have the skill nor are they disciplined enough to handle a less structured offense. They have no patience, falling in love with quick perimeter shots that brick far too often. The lack of perimeter shooting allows teams to collapse to the middle, daring us to hit jumpers while preventing cuts or easy post work. Our front line does not play typical post-up ball, using turnaround jumpers and finger rolls far more often than bulling their way to the basket for jams or followed-through lay-ins. We're not fast enough to beat teams on defensive rebounds and rushing to the basket for fast breaks, and even if we were teams would simply start sending men back early on defense to prevent such things and force us into half-court (like ... uhh ... DETROIT did). We don't move around without the ball enough to allow a free-flow during a half-court set.

So, how do you plan to <i>implement</i> this buckets-o'-fun offense?

BillS
12-15-2005, 01:38 PM
As it affects the actual offensive gameplan, all it takes is getting a few more pick-and-roll sets in the offense..hell thats like candy for basketball players. Players relish the opportunity to run the pick-and-roll...they want to get a mismatch out on the wing or post up on a smaller man or get open jumpers.

The worst part about it is that with Tinsley and JO, you have a perfect pick-and-roll tandem and I never see it....

WE SUCK AT THE PICK AND ROLL!

Let me say that again, with feeling.

<b><i>WE SUCK AT THE PICK AND ROLL!</i></b>

The ballhandler doesn't use the pick well (and Tinsley is extremely guilty of that). The pick comes too late, or too far into the strong side so there is plenty of room for the switch to get corrected before a shot can be taken - and, by the way, forcing the ball handler into a neat little trap when he bounces off the pick instead of using it.

Get some guys that use the damn thing properly when it is called, and then maybe I'd agree they should get the opportunity to use it more.

Chauncey
12-15-2005, 01:40 PM
This team simply doesn't have the skill nor are they disciplined enough to handle a less structured offense. They have no patience, falling in love with quick perimeter shots that brick far too often. The lack of perimeter shooting allows teams to collapse to the middle, daring us to hit jumpers while preventing cuts or easy post work. Our front line does not play typical post-up ball, using turnaround jumpers and finger rolls far more often than bulling their way to the basket for jams or followed-through lay-ins. We're not fast enough to beat teams on defensive rebounds and rushing to the basket for fast breaks, and even if we were teams would simply start sending men back early on defense to prevent such things and force us into half-court (like ... uhh ... DETROIT did). We don't move around without the ball enough to allow a free-flow during a half-court set.

So, how do you plan to implement this buckets-o'-fun offense?

This is seriously what drives me crazy about message boards. The people that take (not purposely mind you) one snippet of the point and run with it. No one is talking about overhauling the offense.....just tweaking it. Carlisle HAS to give a little to the players at this point. This has been as much of a burden on them as it has him over the last two years.

All he has to do is give a little...everyone knows that as a whole the team can't be trusted to run an intricate read-and-react system like PhilJax has the Lakers running, but no one is saying that they should.

Just give them SOME options....give the guys the opportunity to have some fun and play with a smile. Rick's system can continue to win this team many games. But Rick's system with player input and continued buy-in can take them back to the ECF and beyond. (assuming the right trade is made)

Chauncey
12-15-2005, 01:43 PM
WE SUCK AT THE PICK AND ROLL!

Let me say that again, with feeling.

WE SUCK AT THE PICK AND ROLL!

.

Why exactly do you think that is? You have a ball-handler with a tremendous feel for the game. You have big men that can shoot out to 18 feet.

Seems to me like maybe they just need to practice that instead of running a damn flex offense that can be run by a 7th grader.

Rick's running a high school offense with professional players.

Ragnar
12-15-2005, 01:43 PM
Hey I have been *****ing about this offense and wishing they had Hired Byron instead since about the first week Rick got here. Dont try and pretend that people did not question this offense prior to Ron comenting on it.

waxman
12-15-2005, 01:44 PM
You need to be able to both open it up offensively and play possession ball...depending on the situation and the team your playing thats what makes the Spurs so good...they can play any style...they out ran the Suns last year in POs and then beat the Pistons with a more clamp down style.

The key is having players you can trust to make the right decisions on the court.

Opening up the offense doesn't mean whoever has the ball past half court first jacks up a 3.

During our 61 win season we did alot more to get easy baskets early... off missed shots or turnovers...which was often JO or Ron sealing their man or Jamaal backing his man down and getting easy post up opportunities before the D could double.

beast23
12-15-2005, 01:45 PM
I don't think it really has a thing to do with whether we run a 1/2 court offense or not. Oh sure, today's players like to run more than play the 1/2 court offense. That much is true.

But I think the real issue is buy-in, ownership and being heard.

When you listen to suggestions from your underlings, and constantly dismiss them, instead demanding that your game plan be carried out, then you really don't build goodwill among the troops. And you sure as hell don't accomplish buy-in and provide for maximum pleasure in the workplace. But again... that is how the vast majority of SMALL businesses are run.

Usually, the more empowerment you give to the underlings, the more buy-in to the plan you will accomplish. And the more fun the underlings are going to have.


It's up to the chief to provide the limits of the freedom and to know when to reel it in a little so that mass chaos does not ensue.

Bottom line is, I think Carlisle could open it up a little, a lot like he did with AJ for the one game several weeks ago. At times, the players are perfectly capable of calling the shots during the flow of the game. Everything does not need to be dictated from the bench.

Bball
12-15-2005, 01:48 PM
I think this team needs a floor general which is exactly what Sarunas brings. Therefore, I am not thrilled with him playing SG but I've had to miss the last couple of games so maybe he's merely SG in name rather than how he's being used.

I'd like to see Carlisle throw away the egg timer he uses for subsitutions. Of course he did that in the Miami game and Tinsley caught sinupoutinitis. I don't like seeing players pulled after 1 bad shot or pass if overall they are playing good. OTOH, I don't like seeing players pulled who are playing well, and the team playing well, just because the egg timer says it's time for a change.

And when you do bring in the second wave and give the starters/others a break, don't use an egg timer to decide when to bring the players back in. Use the flow of the game to decide (this is where I especially have a problem with the egg timer).

But this is where we need players who accept that role whatever it may be. If the team is doing good without them on a given night then the coach shouldn't feel he has to put any certain individual(s) back in just because that person hasn't gotten his usual minutes or needs a few more points to make his average. The coach should feel no pressure to insert a player in the lineup based on their 'happiness' or level of 'sinupoutnitis'. He should be able to coach the flow of the game and put petty 'me-ism' issues aside. Not worry who is going to pout, whine, or cry in the lockerroom or break pictures in the hallway.

-Bball

Chauncey
12-15-2005, 01:54 PM
I don't think it really has a thing to do with whether we run a 1/2 court offense or not. Oh sure, today's players like to run more than play the 1/2 court offense. That much is true.

But I think the real issue is buy-in, ownership and being heard.

When you listen to suggestions from your underlings, and constantly dismiss them, instead demanding that your game plan be carried out, then you really don't build goodwill among the troops. And you sure as hell don't accomplish buy-in and provide for maximum pleasure in the workplace. But again... that is how the vast majority of SMALL businesses are run.

Usually, the more empowerment you give to the underlings, the more buy-in to the plan you will accomplish. And the more fun the underlings are going to have.


It's up to the chief to provide the limits of the freedom and to know when to reel it in a little so that mass chaos does not ensue.

Bottom line is, I think Carlisle could open it up a little, a lot like he did with AJ for the one game several weeks ago. At times, the players are perfectly capable of calling the shots during the flow of the game. Everything does not need to be dictated from the bench.

You summed up exactly what I'm trying to say. Thank you!

Unclebuck
12-15-2005, 02:01 PM
It means that if Carlisle doesn't give a little on his end, this won't be the last player openly stating that he doesn't want to play for him. He's losing "buy-in" by not taking the players' opinions seriously.

As it affects the actual offensive gameplan, all it takes is getting a few more pick-and-roll sets in the offense..hell thats like candy for basketball players. Players relish the opportunity to run the pick-and-roll...they want to get a mismatch out on the wing or post up on a smaller man or get open jumpers.

The worst part about it is that with Tinsley and JO, you have a perfect pick-and-roll tandem and I never see it....


They run it all the time, not very well, but they run it

Bball
12-15-2005, 02:02 PM
Re-read my post.

I said one or two people.

Not that it matters, but the two people I thought of were you and Tim.


There were lots of people last year *****ing about the 'throw it to JO and watch' offense.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
12-15-2005, 02:09 PM
I've got these Bob Hill quotes in my signature because I've been tired or Rick's "call every possession, milk the shotclock" approach.

But I agree that we don't really have players I'd trust with a more open approach.

So where's that get us?

Bring back Bo Hill.

:devil:

BillS
12-15-2005, 02:56 PM
Why exactly do you think that is? You have a ball-handler with a tremendous feel for the game.

Which one? The one that is injured all the time or the one that is so far one of the few positives on the floor and yet still has nights where he can't find the rim?


You have big men that can shoot out to 18 feet.

That would be, shoot 30% from 18 feet?


Seems to me like maybe they just need to practice that instead of running a damn flex offense that can be run by a 7th grader.

I won't disagree about the practice, though the thought of having to run pros through pick and roll workouts is a little apalling to me. There are more pick and rolls being run on the floor than you seem to believe - they just fall apart so spectacularly they become almost unrecognizable.

And, if the flex offense can be run by a 7th grader, why can't it be run successfully here?

I'll answer that - because even 7th graders have to be credible from both outside and inside OR be able to totally overpower the defense in some area for <i>any</i> offense to work.

Until our outside shooting spreads the defense, the only free-flow opportunities we'll have will still be from the perimeter. If our outside shooting spreads the defense, our set plays will be able to work better and perhaps Rick won't have to worry about screwing up a possession in order for Jax to make a bad decision.

Bottom line here is that there are very few players on this team I would trust with the decisions needed, and as long as we continue to have to play from behind even freeing up a few possessions so the team can have 'fun' is dangerous.

Winning is 'fun'. Getting the opportunity to run your own offense and make spectacular mistakes while blowing game after game can't be nearly that much fun.

SoupIsGood
12-18-2005, 11:09 AM
I read things like they need to "open up" the offense. What in the heck does that mean.

There are only two types of halfcourt offense run in the NBA. Read and react type offense or set play type offense. Clearly Rick runs a set play type offense.

Flip Saunders, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Byron Scott to name a few run a read and react type offense. Ask the Laker fans how that is working. But to run a read and react type offense you have to have very smart players.

Yup. We just need to get players who will actually run the play called, and not break it.

Kstat
12-18-2005, 11:16 AM
Why exactly do you think that is? You have a ball-handler with a tremendous feel for the game. You have big men that can shoot out to 18 feet.

Seems to me like maybe they just need to practice that instead of running a damn flex offense that can be run by a 7th grader.

Rick's running a high school offense with professional players.


First off, you have a ballhandler who has no clue how to run a pick and roll. Tinsley is a one-on-one point guard. He does not play the 2-man game well at all. He likes being isolated with his defender, and bringing an extra defender over to him seems to confuse him and irritate him.

I don't think Tinsley ran a single pick and roll at Iowa St. His first time doing it in his entire life was probably the NBA.

Kstat
12-18-2005, 11:22 AM
As for Rick's offense..... I did say this would happen, and the forum welcomed it with open arms, because ALL of you were completely fed up with Zeke's undisciplined style. Not %80, not %90, ALL of you. Now Rick is too discplined? Come on. THAT'S WHAT YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE FOR.

I'm not going to lie and say it's fun to watch. But Neither was Larry Brown's "offensive coaching for dummies" style. They both won a lot of games.

I'm going to come out and say it: I don't think Indiana has enough continuity for a wide-open offense. They have a lot more defenders than they do scorers. They also have a lot of guys that are reluctant to pass the ball, which you can't have if you're going to put the ball in their hands 50 times a game. In a flex offense, for example, the average player will pass the ball twice as much as he shoots it. It's all about moving the ball from side to side to get the open man the ball faster than the defense can react.

hoopsforlife
12-18-2005, 11:43 AM
As for Rick's offense..... I did say this would happen, and the forum welcomed it with open arms, because ALL of you were completely fed up with Zeke's undisciplined style. Not %80, not %90, ALL of you. Now Rick is too discplined? Come on. THAT'S WHAT YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE FOR.

I'm not going to lie and say it's fun to watch. But Neither was Larry Brown's "offensive coaching for dummies" style. They both won a lot of games.

I'm going to come out and say it: I don't think Indiana has enough continuity for a wide-open offense. They have a lot more defenders than they do scorers. They also have a lot of guys that are reluctant to pass the ball, which you can't have if you're going to put the ball in their hands 50 times a game. In a flex offense, ofr example, the average players will pass the ball twice as much as he shoots it. It's all about moving the ball from side to side to get the open man the ball faster than the defense can react.

This is true Kstat. But its getting better by the game. Just last night, when Jackson got injured, the team passed and moved the ball much better. Granger hit the open shot finally and the passing actually happened. :)

Bball
12-18-2005, 05:16 PM
As for Rick's offense..... I did say this would happen, and the forum welcomed it with open arms, because ALL of you were completely fed up with Zeke's undisciplined style.

That's not exactly true. The chorus was getting awfully loud from those against Isiah but he still had some supporters... still does for that matter.





Not %80, not %90, ALL of you. Now Rick is too discplined? Come on. THAT'S WHAT YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE FOR.


See above...





I'm not going to lie and say it's fun to watch. But Neither was Larry Brown's "offensive coaching for dummies" style. They both won a lot of games.

I'm going to come out and say it: I don't think Indiana has enough continuity for a wide-open offense.


And now the shoe is on the other foot because I do remember Piston fans (can't say which side you fell on) during Rick's time there arguing for a more open offense and Pacer fans saying "you don't have the horses for it and Rick is milking what you do have".

I'm not sure what that means unless someone wants to argue that Carlisle regresses and holds back his teams on the offensive end to the point they fall off the offensive radar.

Our team is not put together well, and I don't think Carlisle has complete control or attention of the team. So whether we're seeing exactly what he wants from them, or what he's forced to accept or watch some players totally unravel, is a question that I have.

-Bball

Kstat
12-18-2005, 06:11 PM
And now the shoe is on the other foot because I do remember Piston fans (can't say which side you fell on) during Rick's time there arguing for a more open offense and Pacer fans saying "you don't have the horses for it and Rick is milking what you do have".

...and at that time, we DIDN'T have the weapons to go up and down.

Slick Pinkham
12-18-2005, 11:37 PM
I merely want the Pacers to be more opportunistic at scoring a few more times a game in transition.

You don't need to be tremendously athletic to score some points in transition. You need good passing and aggressiveness. Maybe our passing isn't good enough and maybe most of the players aren't intrinsically aggressive enough. The samller lineup with Saras at 2 and Jackson or Granger at 3 is a better passing lineup than we are used to, and especially with Danny in there I think we rebound well enough.

Don't tell me we aren't athletic enough. The Some of those 80's Celtic teams were thought of as half-court teams, at least in contrast to the Showime Lakers, but it's amazing to catch the games on ESPN Classic and watch Parrish or Bird fire an outlet pass and 2 passes later somebody gets an easy basket.

It's very hard to be as efficient in your offense as your opponent if they outscore you by a whopping amount on fast breaks.

I am not advocating abandoning Carlisle's structured offense. I'm saying that now they look for easy scores in transition only a handful of times a game, and they can raise that significantly and all the players would like it. When an advantage is not there, business as usual.

Fool
12-19-2005, 01:23 AM
And now the shoe is on the other foot because I do remember Piston fans (can't say which side you fell on) during Rick's time there arguing for a more open offense and Pacer fans saying "you don't have the horses for it and Rick is milking what you do have".

I'm not sure what that means unless someone wants to argue that Carlisle regresses and holds back his teams on the offensive end to the point they fall off the offensive radar.



The first paragraph is the first thing I though of when reading a couple posts in this thread. Whether or not you have the players to run it, you aren't going to see it.

As for the second paragraph. I wouldn't classify it as hurting the team, but he definately ignores areas that could help the team broaden its range of attack in order to maximize a few things he's confident in the team running (over and over and over again).

Peck
12-19-2005, 01:30 AM
I've got these Bob Hill quotes in my signature because I've been tired or Rick's "call every possession, milk the shotclock" approach.

But I agree that we don't really have players I'd trust with a more open approach.

So where's that get us?

Bring back Bo Hill.

:devil:


I've never read your signature before, until you pointed it out.

I agree with every single word that it says.