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View Full Version : Should the Pacers build the team around J.O. or start over completely



Unclebuck
12-15-2005, 09:49 AM
I think most of us believe the Pacers are at a crossroads.

There are basically 3 approaches Donnie Walsh and Bird can take.

1) Trade Artest for a player or two and stop there. Hope that cleans up all the chemistry issues. Try to win 50 plus games and with minimal change hope the team can re-gather themselves for a successful season and playoff run.

2) Trade Artest as part of a major re-shaping of the team. This will involve the Pacers trading maybe 3 or 4 of their top 10 players in addition to Artest. In other words build around J.O. but try to clean up any real or perceived chemistry problems. This likely will mean the team has to take a step back in order to move forward.

3) Trade Artest - yes. But also trade J.O. and several other players. In other words, start almost from scratch. Trade J.O as a way to build a foundation for future success. This approach is for those who think J.O. is simply not good enough to lead the team to a championship. Who knows what this would mean for the franchise in the immediate future. It could signal rebuilding.


I realize each approach is rather broad, and it would help to know the details. But I think TPTB have to first decide which approach to take. Of course it might depend on what type of trade talks are going on.

I'm recommending approach #2

ChicagoJ
12-15-2005, 09:52 AM
:laugh:

Fifteen new players...

Going once...

Going twice...



:devil:

indygeezer
12-15-2005, 09:53 AM
I think most of us believe the Pacers are at a crossroad. There are basically 3 approaches Donnie Walsh and Bird can take.

1) Trade Artest for a player or two and stop there. Hope that cleans up all the chemistry issues. Try to win 50 plus games and with minimal change hope the team can re-gather themselves for a sucessful season.

2) Trade Artest as part of a major re-shaping of the team. This will involve the Pacers trading maybe 3 or 4 of their top 10 players in addition to Artest. In other words build around J.O. but try to clean up any real or perceived chemistry problems. This likely will mean the team has to take a step back in order to move forward.

3) Trade Artest - yes. But also trade J.O. and several other players. In other words, start almost from scratch. Trade J.O as a way build a foundation for future success. This approach is for those who think J.O is simply not good enough to lead the team to a championship. Who knows what this would mean for the franchise in the immediate future. It could signal rebuilding.


I realize each approach is rather broad, and it would help to know the details. But I think TPTB have to first decide which approach to take. of course it might depend on what type of trade talks are going on.

I'm recommending approach #2

I heard a very logical disoarse on this yesterday. The speaker (Rakestraw??) said option 1 because you still have two months to the trade deadline to see how the chemistry is affected by the new player(s) and change in PT.
Seems logical. Not what I would prefer but it does sound very Donnie-like.


Where's Jay in all this? (oops...jumped in there as I was typing huh Jay)

Unclebuck
12-15-2005, 09:59 AM
:laugh:

Fifteen new players...

Going once...

Going twice...



:devil:



You're just evil.


Jay, is your 15 new players post still around. I might want to re-read it now

indygeezer
12-15-2005, 10:01 AM
uh Jay....can we keep Sarunas?

Slick Pinkham
12-15-2005, 10:02 AM
I wish I knew what the chemistry issues were, then I'd know who needs to go.

Not knowing that, I'd make trades to shore up the on-the-court weaknesses of the team. We need better PG play if we assume that Tinsley is rarely going to be healthy and Saras is better suited to be a backup. If you believe Saras is ready, you still need a defensive-minded backup who is quicker than AJ.

We need another big man we can count on for defense and to be healthy.

I would not hesitate moving Tinsley with Artest to fix these needs. Jackson should be available too, but not at a sale price. I'd build around J.O., Saras, and Granger. Everyone else is available but I wouldn't think of parting with those three.

fwpacerfan
12-15-2005, 10:31 AM
I go with #2 - tentatively. I don't think JO can be the main man alone. I think he needs a very good #2. Watching him last night bothered me and was a microcosm of JO's problems. He couldn't have had more than 4 points in the paint. He kept posting up 12 feet from the basket or just standing 15 feet from the basket shooting jumpers. He gets into funks where he doesn't play inside. He is great when he posts 8 feet from the basket and is aggressive toward the hoop. He's mediocre at best when he settles for jumpers and turn around 15 footers like last night.

I'm afraid the loss of Artest is going to show itself in the basketball IQ dept. Artest was a very smart player on the court. He seemed to understand when this team needed to take it inside. No one else on this team seems to comprehend this and that scares me.

Strany
12-15-2005, 10:36 AM
I just don't know, but I have this feeling Donnie may be thinking on option 2 or 3. I know Peck has talked several times about the average fan not feeling connected to this team and I agree with him. I think this could play into the decision.

Frank Slade
12-15-2005, 10:50 AM
Had you told me at the beginning of the season that Artest would go AWOL and we would need to shake the team up.
I might have opted to go ahead and Move JO as well to get a few really good players in return.
However, JO has really matured before our eyes,,and I was always much more of an Artest than JO fan to begin with.

But Jermaine has shown he really gets it, and it would send this fan base and team into a cataclysmic downfall if after all he has stood for lately he gets shipped out too. I know the NBA is not all about pleasing the fans, but this one move you don't do now. Jermaine is posting Duncan like numbers right now(thanks NS), as far as I know as far as big men go , maybe only Elton Brand and Dirk are having superior seasons thus far.

So I say you keep JO to try and retain some kind of semblance of stability. You then in conjunction with Artest , move a few others , who need no introduction, either at the same time or by the trade dead line , to better the team's needs and cohesiveness.

SO I guess that would be option 2 or maybe option 1.5 depending on who you move along with Artest...

Will Galen
12-15-2005, 10:50 AM
I think most of us believe the Pacers are at a crossroads.

There are basically 3 approaches Donnie Walsh and Bird can take.

1) Trade Artest for a player or two and stop there.
2) Trade Artest as part of a major re-shaping of the team.
3) Trade Artest - yes. But also trade J.O. and several other players.

I'm recommending approach #2


I would go with number one (1) until just before the trade deadline and then reevaluate. If I don't like what I see I then go with number two (2). Three (3) isn't an option with me unless we trade JO for Garnett, but I see no point in doing that. I think JO is growing up right before our eyes.

I really don't think Ron was the problem this year until his demand to be traded. However trading Ron might straighten out the other problems.

Harmonica
12-15-2005, 10:53 AM
I'm recommending approach #2

A major reshaping isn't needed. I think moving Ron and Tins (with some filler perhaps) will go a long way toward righting the ship.

ChicagoJ
12-15-2005, 10:58 AM
You're just evil.


Jay, is your 15 new players post still around. I might want to re-read it now

Thank you, I think. :D

And here it is. Read it at your own risk...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10326

Bball
12-15-2005, 11:06 AM
Thank you, I think. :D

And here it is. Read it at your own risk...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10326

# Our SGs not named Reggie are either:

* Very streaky and emotional; or
* Rock solid yet undersized
-----------------------------------------------------

Where's our rock solid, yet undersized, shooting guard?

-Bball

ChicagoJ
12-15-2005, 11:11 AM
Fred has continued to disappoint me more and more since that post last spring.

At this stage I'd call him an undersized, overmatched bricklayer with a tenendency toward hogging the ball and sporatic effort on the defensive end.

I think he's let the slam dunk thing get into his head.

Naptown Seth
12-15-2005, 11:13 AM
Ron Artest is the only one who has to go. After that, I'd say Jackson or Tinsley being moved wouldn't exactly be the worst thing in the world for the Pacers, provided they got something worthwhile in return. But other than those 3, I think the team is fine. And as good as Artest was, he's really become massively overrated ever since "The Brawl". For as good as his D was, he's not that great of a scorer, and the other parts of his game were simply average.

Bball
12-15-2005, 11:16 AM
Fred has continued to disappoint me more and more since that post last spring.

At this stage I'd call him an undersized, overmatched bricklayer with a tenendency toward hogging the ball and sporatic effort on the defensive end.

I think he's let the slam dunk thing get into his head.

It's a good thing you got that wrong in your old post because now people can claim if you missed that then 'how can you be taken seriously on any of your points'. Otherwise, the :sunshine: would be going into convulsions right now.

Point after point has pretty much played out hasn't it?

I read thru the thread to see what I had to say. I wasn't far off either :cry:

-Bball

ChicagoJ
12-15-2005, 11:29 AM
It's a good thing you got that wrong in your old post because now people can claim if you missed that then 'how can you be taken seriously on any of your points'. Otherwise, the :sunshine: would be going into convulsions right now.

Point after point has pretty much played out hasn't it?

I read thru the thread to see what I had to say. I wasn't far off either :cry:

-Bball

I need to re-read it myself, but I've got too many year end deadlines and my boss wants me to lead yet another pitch later today. When it rains, it pours.

BillS
12-15-2005, 12:11 PM
Had you told me at the beginning of the season that Artest would go AWOL and we would need to shake the team up.
I might have opted to go ahead and Move JO as well to get a few really good players in return.
However, JO has really matured before our eyes,,and I was always much more of an Artest than JO fan to begin with.

But Jermaine has shown he really gets it, and it would send this fan base and team into a cataclysmic downfall if after all he has stood for lately he gets shipped out too. I know the NBA is not all about pleasing the fans, but this one move you don't do now. Jermaine is posting Duncan like numbers right now(thanks NS), as far as I know as far as big men go , maybe only Elton Brand and Dirk are having superior seasons thus far.

So I say you keep JO to try and retain some kind of semblance of stability. You then in conjunction with Artest , move a few others , who need no introduction, either at the same time or by the trade dead line , to better the team's needs and cohesiveness.

SO I guess that would be option 2 or maybe option 1.5 depending on who you move along with Artest...


I agree here, I think JO took the leadership criticism and has done something with it.

The two problems seem to have been Artest's odd perception of his place in the world and some players who don't play team ball. The first problem is being taken care of forceably. The second would involve putting those players on the block as well.

I think of this as option 1.5, because I would not like to see us trade any of our hustlers - that would give the impression that work hard or don't work you get treated the same.

CableKC
12-15-2005, 12:17 PM
I would prefer to go with option 1 then 2....whereas 3 is not an option cuz I don't want to be a lotter team. The main reason is that if we go with option 2.....I don't feel that we would have a real chance at making a run at the championship this season.

The only way that I can see option 2 working is unless Walsh is really able to go Harry Potter on us and magically transform the team into a playoff contender this seaon.....which I think is not possible considering team chemistry and getting the exact type of players that we need.

Option 2 can be implemented in the 2005-2006 offseason. After all that we have gone through over the last 2 seasons....I don't want to chuck it all and give up.

Besides....I want to make a run for the championship this season. We may still lose to the Pistons....but I would rather try then not try.

beast23
12-15-2005, 12:33 PM
A major reshaping isn't needed. I think moving Ron and Tins (with some filler perhaps) will go a long way toward righting the ship.I agree with that. I think you do that trade, then play out the season to see where we are.

Losing Artest is a big loss. He is a scorer, a lock-down defender, a post-player, a passer and a smart team defender.

I fear that we will not be able to cover our loss by only making the one trade. Trading Artest will probably create the need for the roster to be re-balanced.

By summer, we should know if that is the case, and probably what would be needed to help bring it back into balance.

Jermaniac
12-15-2005, 01:02 PM
lol Your favorite player is about to get traded and now you want everybody gone. But when Ron wanted to stay you had no problems with anyone but Jamaal.

Diesel_81
12-15-2005, 01:15 PM
I would go with option #2 and I think its likely thats what we will see happen. Jermaine Oneal is not the problem , I actually think hes having a tremendous season , I think Ive seen him dive on the floor more this year then in whole career combined. Unless Kevin Garnett gets offered for Jermaine Oneal and Tinsley there really is nobody else that is available that would be an upgrade over Oneal. I also love the fact that he wants to be here.

Bball
12-15-2005, 01:28 PM
lol Your favorite player is about to get traded and now you want everybody gone. But when Ron wanted to stay you had no problems with anyone but Jamaal.


Uncle Buck is saying that without Ron there are other problems with the team that now become exposed.... but with Ron they could be covered or minimized...

-Bball

Shade
12-15-2005, 01:29 PM
With all that's happened recently, trading the face of the franchise may kill off too much of the fanbase. Of course, I'm never opposed to an obvious upgrade if the situation should arise. But, if we're going to rebuild at JO's postion, we would have to bring in Garnett, because Duncan isn't going anywhere, and JO is the third best PF in the league.

brichard
12-15-2005, 01:30 PM
Every year I think JO has gotten better. He made some mistakes last year, but unlike his colleague, he appears to have learned something through the experience. I still don't think he is a natural leader, but that is an opinion. He can be a great player and not a leader, that is okay.

If you give him up, you have to find somebody of equal value, which isnt' going to happen. He is really a pretty tremendous talent. Trading away a maxed out Rose made all the sense in the world, but I'm not sure it makes sense in this case.

As far as gutting the rest of the roster, I guess I am okay with that. If nothing else, we have to find some people who are more durable. We are experiencing too much deja vu in the injury department.

I think the biggest concern I have with this team is that we are woefully inconsistent. Everybody has a good game here and bad game there, but the Jekkyl and Hyde thing with this team sees unique to me. AJ is an Allstar one game and bench fodder the next and we can add... Jax, Croshere, Sarunas, etc.

I'm not sure if it is the players, the substitutions or what, but that tendency of this team drives me bonkers.

Can we get a shooter to shoot?
Can we get a passer to pass w/o high TO?
Can we outrebound a team once in awhile?

This is a very frustrating team to watch. Somebody may rationalize it or explain it, but man they drive me nuts.

TheHotShot31
12-15-2005, 01:38 PM
I'll take option one, I want to see who the Pacers get for Ron Artest and see what we can do this year with the current roster and added pieces...

Ultimate Frisbee
12-15-2005, 02:58 PM
With all that's happened recently, trading the face of the franchise may kill off too much of the fanbase. Of course, I'm never opposed to an obvious upgrade if the situation should arise. But, if we're going to rebuild at JO's postion, we would have to bring in Garnett, because Duncan isn't going anywhere, and JO is the third best PF in the league.

I'd rank Elton Brand (way ahead) and possibly Dirk Nowitski ahead of JO...

In light of that... I'll take option #3!!!

I'm bored with our team and have always been a J.O. "hater"

stipo
12-15-2005, 03:57 PM
I'd go with 3 at this point. Blow it up. I guess I'm just depressed about going from a SERIOUS title contender, to a pretty-decent-on-some-nights-team. I just don't see the point to it all now to just play out the season...again.

fwpacerfan
12-15-2005, 04:29 PM
Judging by this thread most people believe that the only reason this team was a playoff contender is because of Artest. That seems kind of ironic to me.

If chemistry is the problem with this team and Artest is the reason for the chemistry problem - wouldn't that mean that the team will be better without him?

I think there are problems with this team and I don't think Artest is the biggest of them. I also don't think Artest is the sole reason for the chemistry problems. I'm really beginning to think the so called "leader" is a big part of this. I hope like crazy that I'm wrong. I just watched his lackluster effort last night and it bothered me. This team (and it's leader) should have been fired up last night and they weren't.

Slick Pinkham
12-15-2005, 04:34 PM
I'd be curious if anyone picking a "total rebuilding job, including JO" are old enough to have been fans from 1976-1988 or so.


It is not easy to have a perennial playoff team. We take that too much for granted. You try a total overhaul and you may not sniff the playoffs for a decade.

Fix the problems you can fix, don't blow it up, and enjoy the fact that significant changes can be made and even before the new pieces gel we are still amoung the teams that can be very dangerous in the playoffs.

stipo
12-15-2005, 04:43 PM
I'd be curious if anyone picking a "total rebuilding job, including JO" are old enough to have been fans from 1976-1988 or so.


It is not easy to have a perennial playoff team. We take that too much for granted. You try a total overhaul and you may not sniff the playoffs for a decade.

Fix the problems you can fix, don't blow it up, and enjoy the fact that significant changes can be made and even before the new pieces gel we are still amoung the teams that can be very dangerous in the playoffs.

What your saying is the smart thing to do of course, and I'm pretty sure it's what the braintrust at Conseco plans on doing. OTOH, I'm afraid of a slow inevitable decline at this point (a rash conclusion maybe), if your not getting better, which we aren't, your getting worse.

I'm old enough to remember those years, but I was always hopeful that next year would be better, and that kept me going. But now I see a special player gone, a really big hole in this team, and I'm depressed about our chances with the present roster. Maybe it's the fact that I feel I know what this team can (and cannot) do together, and the grass seems greener with the potential for change.

Skaut_Ech
12-15-2005, 06:03 PM
We need another big man we can count on for defense and to be healthy.

I would not hesitate moving Tinsley with Artest to fix these needs. Jackson should be available too, but not at a sale price. I'd build around J.O., Saras, and Granger. Everyone else is available but I wouldn't think of parting with those three.


I don't think JO can be the main man alone. I think he needs a very good #2. Watching him last night bothered me and was a microcosm of JO's problems. He couldn't have had more than 4 points in the paint. He kept posting up 12 feet from the basket or just standing 15 feet from the basket shooting jumpers. He gets into funks where he doesn't play inside. He is great when he posts 8 feet from the basket and is aggressive toward the hoop. He's mediocre at best when he settles for jumpers and turn around 15 footers like last night.

I kinda agree with you both, but where I diverge is Jermaine. I won't rehash my arguement I trotted out in the past, but I still firmly believe this team will not win a title with Jemraine as our main weapon.

I don't think Jermaine needs a very good #2. I think Jemaine needs to be the #2.

Now I know my thinking isn't realistic in terms of the real world. No way Donnie makes such a drastic move. For me, I feel a disconnect with this team. Other than Saras, Foster and Granger, there's no one I true root for. I, quite simply, don't like this team.

Now this is just my thinking, if I had it my way.

Like they say in politics, don't complain unless you can offer a solution.

UB, I guess I don't fall under any of your options, but am closest to #2....sorta.

I hate to trot out the most tired, worn out trade option, but I would try my best to make a Garnett trade happen. I quick check of RealGm shows an Artest/Tinsley/Jackson/Fred Jones for Garnett trades would work. Lot to give up on the downside. Clears out out my percieved problem kids (not Jones) on the upside. They'd have to throw in Jaric, though. I could see a Garnett/O'Neal combo functioning like a David Robinson and Duncan tandem.

Or something involving getting Ray Allen. Tinsley/Jackson/Artest for Allen works....but they wouldn't go for it.

I dunno. I just want someone leading us OTHER than Jermaine, but I want him here.

fwpacerfan
12-16-2005, 08:18 AM
I kinda agree with you both, but where I diverge is Jermaine. I won't rehash my arguement I trotted out in the past, but I still firmly believe this team will not win a title with Jemraine as our main weapon.

I don't think Jermaine needs a very good #2. I think Jemaine needs to be the #2.

Now I know my thinking isn't realistic in terms of the real world. No way Donnie makes such a drastic move. For me, I feel a disconnect with this team. Other than Saras, Foster and Granger, there's no one I true root for. I, quite simply, don't like this team.

Now this is just my thinking, if I had it my way.

Like they say in politics, don't complain unless you can offer a solution.

UB, I guess I don't fall under any of your options, but am closest to #2....sorta.

I hate to trot out the most tired, worn out trade option, but I would try my best to make a Garnett trade happen. I quick check of RealGm shows an Artest/Tinsley/Jackson/Fred Jones for Garnett trades would work. Lot to give up on the downside. Clears out out my percieved problem kids (not Jones) on the upside. They'd have to throw in Jaric, though. I could see a Garnett/O'Neal combo functioning like a David Robinson and Duncan tandem.

Or something involving getting Ray Allen. Tinsley/Jackson/Artest for Allen works....but they wouldn't go for it.

I dunno. I just want someone leading us OTHER than Jermaine, but I want him here.


I agree and I like your trade ideas except I don't think you will solve any leadership issues with either Garnett or Allen. They do not seem to be the type of leader we need. I truly think Sarunas is going to be the leader we need - but JO needs to recognize this.