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Harmonica
12-13-2005, 07:12 PM
After days of speculation, speculate no more! foretaz knows why Ron demanded a trade. He's successfully navigated the labyrinthal transom of Ron's mind.



think about it....

would ron be leaving if jack werent on this team???

do u think ron would be leaving if fred jones, danny granger, saras or aj were the starter???

ron didnt handle things properly, no doubt...and we can blame him for that till the cows come home....

but he didnt create the situation that was dividing this team...

prior to the outburst by ron, jack was getting pulverized by the public...he wasnt getting his touches, therefore he wasnt playing well, therefore he wasnt bringing the effort, especially on the defensive end....

when ron isnt playing well, what happens to his effort on the defensive end????

if anyone should have been gone, it shouldve been jack and not ron...whether it be to the bench or another team, it makes no difference....

but they all knew jack wouldnt deal well with either....so they hesitated to do the right thing....

and for that, we are losing our arguably best player...undoubtedly our best player for the money, and the heart and soul to our defense-and we are considered a defensive team...and we lose our toughness....would u consider anyone else in our starting lineup tough???

so in answer, no, ron was not right...he was not right in the way he handled the situation....but it was a bad situation that he really shouldnt have been forced to deal with if others would have been doing what needed to be done...

http://www2.indystar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129429&page=1&pp=15

aceace
12-13-2005, 07:19 PM
I humbly disagree, RA is a headcase on a Rodman level. Getting rid of Jax would have solved nothing. Artest had 30 points last time he played for us and has clearly been getting "touches". I have seen so many drives to the hoop where it was one on one. He would have opted out of his contract in 08-09 and could have gotten a max deal at his age/skill level. This is just RA being a headcase. I agree Jax hasn't been the best he could be lately, but lets see what happens now that he's the #2 option.

Mordecaii
12-13-2005, 07:20 PM
wow....... just wow..............

Shade
12-13-2005, 07:21 PM
Wow, some habits just die hard, huh?

The Toxic Avenger
12-13-2005, 07:47 PM
What? I agree that Jax is one of the problems Ron was talking about when he said something to the effect those things are just annoying...

Obviously he doesn't like Carlisle but Jax or Tinsley IMO are the reason for Ron deciding to leave.

Jose Slaughter
12-13-2005, 07:51 PM
I havn't had the time to read through every thread over the past 4 or 5 days, I missed that post by Foreraz. There is little that I can say I agree with him on, however, this is not one of them.

Its pretty common knowledge that Artest had issues with the offense. Its not a great leap to see problems arising between Artest & Jackson over their roles within the offense. Artest continued to play hard & play well. Jackson pouted & his game suffered. As far as we know, nothing was being done & I guess Artest felt, nothing would.

His only mistake was not keeping it "in-house".

Artest is an outstanding basketball player & I will always enjoy watching him play.

However, I am very happy that it will now be on another team.

DisplacedKnick
12-13-2005, 07:54 PM
Well, we've heard from foretaz - now all we need is a Sassan "Ron-Ron" post.

Probably something about the team wasn't "ghetto" enough for Ron.

Harmonica
12-13-2005, 08:01 PM
I havn't had the time to read through every thread over the past 4 or 5 days, I missed that post by Foreraz. There is little that I can say I agree with him on, however, this is not one of them.

Its pretty common knowledge that Artest had issues with the offense. Its not a great leap to see problems arising between Artest & Jackson over their roles within the offense. Artest continued to play hard & play well. Jackson pouted & his game suffered. As far as we know, nothing was being done & I guess Artest felt, nothing would.

His only mistake was not keeping it "in-house".

Artest is an outstanding basketball player & I will always enjoy watching him play.

However, I am very happy that it will now be on another team.

Interesting. I tend to agree more with the poster tippy the turtl in that thread. I find it hard to believe that Jax was at the root of all this. That said, the real reason I posted this was because foretaz was always blasting people for speculatin'.

Shade
12-13-2005, 08:03 PM
Well, we've heard from foretaz - now all we need is a Sassan "Ron-Ron" post.

Probably something about the team wasn't "ghetto" enough for Ron.

I wonder if Sassan lost any limbs over this? After all, supporting Ron-Ron is just how he lives his life now. Guess it's time for him to please move on...

Bball
12-13-2005, 09:15 PM
Harmonica,
Had you posted that quote in purple there would've been a cookie for you! ...But alas, you did not.

He sure did have what at first looks like speculation, but we have to remember it's foretaz. Therefore, those were the facts. No other possible way to look at things. Any opposite view would, of course, be speculation.

:tongue:

-Bball

indygeezer
12-13-2005, 09:31 PM
Perhaps you are right, but oddly I hav had similar thoughts about ROn taking the fall for the reall cancer on this team.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Absolutely not. Wild speculation it is. But...just a week ago it was Jax and not Ron that was mouthing off about how he should be the one getting the touches that JO turns down. Then agai....aw hell dump em both and be done with it!

Bball
12-13-2005, 09:47 PM
Perhaps you are right, but oddly I hav had similar thoughts about ROn taking the fall for the reall cancer on this team.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Absolutely not. Wild speculation it is. But...just a week ago it was Jax and not Ron that was mouthing off about how he should be the one getting the touches that JO turns down. Then agai....aw hell dump em both and be done with it!

I was just posting a similar thought in another thread. Prior to all this Reggie said Ron wasn't the bad egg. So who is?

I could see Ron's flareup being in response to the true "Bad egg" but he handled it wrong. Maybe the Pacers have been overly patient with this bad egg. Maybe they've been overly patient with several bad eggs.

Make no mistake, we know Artest isn't stable. I don't know how much the team had to walk on eggshells when they were around him. That has to be hard and grating over time. But to what degree? And was someone simply refusing to give at all for the betterment of the team and not tread lightly around Artest at all?

Of course Ron has shown time and time again that he can't be satisfied for long but I just have a sinking feeling he's not at the root of the problems we've seen (this time) and in fact, in part, his latest episode could be a symptom.

The Pacers have historically been a patient team. It's bitten them before, it could be biting them again.

-Bball

EDIT: I should add that for teammates to bend and accomodate Ron's 'position' it should also require Ron to bend as well. One without the other does no one any good.

Shade
12-13-2005, 09:49 PM
If Jack acts up ONE TIME after this, we need to ship him off too ASAP.

As for Ron the Martyr, I admit, a similar thought had crossed my mind. But why the hell would Ron feel obligated to throw himself on the grenade? Makes no sense. Of course, that's Ron for 'ya.

Jose Slaughter
12-13-2005, 10:39 PM
I don't consider Jackson the root of all that is evil with the Pacers, nor do I think Artest was acting like a martyr.

It now seems the two of them on the same team was not gonna work from day 1. Jackson doesn't seem like he wants to play inside the "team" concept. Between the trouble with Jackson & his not being fully behind the Carlise offense, I think Artest simply had enough.

Harmonica
12-13-2005, 10:47 PM
Jackson doesn't seem like he wants to play inside the "team" concept.

I saw quite the opposite these past two games. A much more relaxed group of guys all playing within the team concept...without Ron.

Sollozzo
12-13-2005, 10:58 PM
Interesting. I tend to agree more with the poster tippy the turtl in that thread. I find it hard to believe that Jax was at the root of all this. That said, the real reason I posted this was because foretaz was always blasting people for speculatin'.


Yep.

Whenever anyone would post anything negative about Ron, Foretaz would counter with a: "You don't know Ron personally", and would accuse you of despising him personally.

Yet, now, he is obviously blaming everything on Jackson, when he doesn't know what in the hell is going on.

I guess Foretaz just has some inside connection to the Pacers that he always knows exactly what's going on.

indygeezer
12-14-2005, 01:53 AM
I saw quite the opposite these past two games. A much more relaxed group of guys all playing within the team concept...without Ron.


I will say that during the PO's it was Jackson who stepped up his game. I praisded him for it then so I gotta remember that now. Note...it would just be easier to trade him now too and be done with it.

Harmonica
12-14-2005, 02:11 AM
I will say that during the PO's it was Jackson who stepped up his game. I praisded him for it then so I gotta remember that now. Note...it would just be easier to trade him now too and be done with it.

I'm not down on the guy, so I can't say I feel the same way. He's a bit of a hothead, but he ain't no Ron.

Jon Theodore
12-14-2005, 04:41 AM
Jackson is just streaky and inevitably people will not like him due to that.

Jackson = Jalen Rose with defensive skills. Simple as that, I personally love the guy. He is a bit of a hot head and emotional but so what. Sjack plays with passion and that is one of those intangibles that great players have.

Now, im not saying Jackson is some sort of all-star. I'm just saying the guy likes to win basketball games.

Gamble
12-14-2005, 09:27 AM
I'm not down on the guy, so I can't say I feel the same way. He's a bit of a hothead, but he ain't no Ron.
I'll just add to this. Jax is not a "complete" idiot as Ron. Emotionally
he rides the fence but as far as sanity goes he is way healthier than Ron.
I would much rather have Jax in long run for team chemistry than Ron
and his defense/20 pnts a game.

able
12-14-2005, 09:43 AM
blah: humbug!

Jackson; not getting enough shots to his mind, so he takes a shot as soon as he gets the ball (F offense) and stops paying attention on the defensive end.
Gets into JO's face at the bench, and plays minutes later, his same crappy defense.

Oh so it's been better this last two games? yes perhaps, but only because he was the 2nd option again.

This guy was signed to be a 3rd option, not a 2nd or a 1st, he was so last year, but that was due to circumstances, not by choice.

If he can not (and it has become clear early this season that he can't) be that 3rd option and will force the issue, without any form of discipline from Rick, then no matter who we get, if he moves ahead of Jax, we will have the same trouble within sort time (no more then 2 months).

Who am I not to think that all the problems stem from this same source, who says it is not that attitude that players are sick of and see nothing done about?

Ron's an idiot for doing what he did, thank god the bidding wars have already started and we will be able to get something good in exchange, no doubt about that, but it doesn't take away the source of the misery.

How long before others want their shots and raise the same ruckus?

<shiver>

Mordecaii
12-14-2005, 09:49 AM
Well I wasn't going to say anything, but I feel I really have to because this is bothering me. We know that Ron really does create a mismatch against most other players in the league. Does anyone else remember some of the games this season where Ron took quite a few shots and had a rather low FG percentage? In cases like this, Ron will hold the ball, and either shoot or drive to the basket. His saving grace was that he would often get fouled, but the point is that if the ball went to him then chances are that he was taking the shot... Now I in no way think that Stephen Jackson is much better, as both players like to try to get their own shot. I'm just saying that in this respect they were very similar and perhaps having 2 of them on the same team could never have worked. Just because Jackson came to the team after Ron doesn't make him any more guilty of it than Ron.

Fool
12-14-2005, 09:52 AM
Please quote Foretaz in purple.

That is all.

Harmonica
12-14-2005, 11:06 AM
Better?

Fool
12-14-2005, 11:24 AM
Much. Thank you.

naptownmenace
12-14-2005, 11:55 AM
I'm not down on the guy, so I can't say I feel the same way. He's a bit of a hothead, but he ain't no Ron.


I was happy when the Pacers traded Al for him and I'm still happy he's here.

I agree with whoever said that Artest and Jack couldn't co-exist on the floor at the same time. Their offensive style is too similar. With Ron on the floor their is less room to drive and penetrate.

That said, I would rather have Ron than Jack if the choice really came down to it. However, I can't ignore the positives in having a guy like Jack who plays hard, can create off the dribble, and plays very well with JO.

Ragnar
12-14-2005, 12:15 PM
Holy cow I had completely forgotten there was another Pacer board out there. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Harmonica
12-14-2005, 12:29 PM
I agree with whoever said that Artest and Jack couldn't co-exist on the floor at the same time. Their offensive style is too similar. With Ron on the floor their is less room to drive and penetrate.
That's a good observation. I love it when Jax drives to the hoop. He's very difficult to stop. So when I see him do it, I always think to myself, why doesn't he do that more often instead of jacking up those ill-advised threes? But perhaps without Ron here, he'll drive more. Hopefully.


That said, I would rather have Ron than Jack if the choice really came down to it.
I would have gladly traded Ron after the ECFs. I would have waived him (if that's possible) after the brawl, never giving him another opportunity to hurt this team.

Mordecaii
12-14-2005, 12:36 PM
Well, thankfully the choice has been pretty much taken out of TPTB's hands... Ron doesn't want to be here and apparently his teammates are all for shipping him out as well. So now that we know that, we can look ahead and see what the positives might be... Which as I stated earlier in this thread I believe one of the positives is that Stephen Jackson's game will improve. Jackson isn't the defensive stopper that Artest is (although he does play above average defense), and he isn't the nightmare that Artest is when it comes to posting people up, but he's more athletic with his moves to the basket, and he is a better spot-up shooter. With Ron and JO both in, the lane was clogged with 2 people posting. Even if another player wanted to get into the lane they couldn't. I'm not saying the Pacers are a better team without Ron, but I think this will open up a lot of different possibilities.

Gamble
12-14-2005, 06:34 PM
That's a good observation. I love it when Jax drives to the hoop. He's very difficult to stop. So when I see him do it, I always think to myself, why doesn't he do that more often instead of jacking up those ill-advised threes? But perhaps without Ron here, he'll drive more. Hopefully.

This is why i want Odom. He can pass well for a big guy and something
that always corrects bad chemistry is good passing and easy lay ups.
Jax would fit well with him with his slashing and ability to draw a foul.
This teams only chance to win in playoffs is to find some chemistry and
out rebound all of which Odom brings.

Chauncey
12-14-2005, 09:37 PM
Will you people please play nice with foretaz so that I'll be rid of him? I would be eternally grateful..and by eternally..I mean for about a week or so :)

sweabs
12-14-2005, 09:55 PM
Ch......ch.......

Chauncey?

Chauncey
12-14-2005, 10:04 PM
Ch......ch.......

Chauncey?

ARRRRRRRGH, tis me.

Gamble
12-15-2005, 01:44 AM
blah: humbug!

Jackson; not getting enough shots to his mind, so he takes a shot as soon as he gets the ball (F offense) and stops paying attention on the defensive end.
Gets into JO's face at the bench, and plays minutes later, his same crappy defense.

<SHIVER>
All i can say is i never look at him and think he doesn't want to win.
Jax needs time thats all. Everyone wants to rebuild and i am not
convinced by what i've seen that he is apart of the problem. If however
the team decides to trade him i trust that it won't be a downgrade.

AleksandarN
12-15-2005, 02:06 AM
Hi I do not post much here just mainly read but here is another post by the famous Foretaz in Kigsfans form.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9322&page=6

WOW just WOW



simple question....u have ur dream job in ur dream location to an organization that u feel a tremendous amount of loyalty to...and u are incredibly talented and noone puts forth more effort or works harder for that organization...and despite all this, u decide u simply cannot under any circumstances work for that organization anymore....

i know ur not in tune with all the intertwinings that go on in the pacers organization and probably view from a distance...but be assured of one thing....ron isnt screwing the pacers organization over....he simply has no choice...i dont expect u to fully understand, but just ask urself the question, why would a guy have his dream scenario yet demand to be traded?....

hint, it aint because hes crazy...

hint number 2....reggie miller said on national tv...ron artest is not the bad egg on the pacer team...

good luck...