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View Full Version : J.O. and Ronnie lead the Pacers to #54



Unclebuck
03-28-2004, 08:58 PM
Let me start with the Miami Heat.

The Heat do a great job, better than any team I have seen all season, at trapping the pick and roll and rotating out of that trap, often cutting off the two easiest passes. They also double team very hard and yet they appear to never leave anyone open. It seemed like they had 6 defenders. Very, very well coached team. Looks like a Pat Riley coached team to me, a lot of credit needs to go to Stan Van Gundy. They have a lot of very athletic guys, so that makes their defense tough.

On to the Pacers, I know many of you will say the Pacers did not play well, I disagree, the Heat's defense will make you look bad.

Was that the best terrible game you have ever seen a player play. I am talking about Ron Artest. He had 6 steals, several other deflections that lead to steals, and he got the whole Heat team into foul trouble. The terrible part were the turnovers and missed shots, but he got two huge steals in the last 2 minutes and the two biggest rebs of the game.

Even Ronnie's "bad" games are great

J.O. was key, he hit big shot after big shot in the second half and also had a few huge blocked shots.

Rick Carlisle was fuming mad at Tinsley for that home run pass late in the game, you don't see Rick get mad at individual players too often, does anyone who was at the game know what Rick yelled at Tinsley.

Is Jeff becoming an offensive machine?

AJ played well tonight as did Freddie, I thought for a minute there Rick was going to finish the game with those two, but Reggie and Jamaal came back in the game a few minutes later than normal.

Looking at the schedules of teams like the Bucks, Hornets, and Heat, the Pacers are more likely to face the Heat in the second round than in the first. Heat are a very well coached team

PaceBalls
03-28-2004, 10:57 PM
I was at the game, 13th row behind the pacer bench. And ya, it was a defensive dogfight. Miami played great D. There was one stretch where it seemed the pacers had every shot blocked for like 8 straight possesions. Most of them by AL doing his patented drive to the basket weaklike and get blocked offense. Is there anyone in the league that gets blocked more than AL? Good thing JO was there tonight or pacers lose bad. same with Ron. He took a beating tonight. He was getting hammered in the paint.
when Ron went down on his ankle I got a little nervous, cause he actually asked to be taken out! I thought for sure his ankle was about to fall off or something for him to do that. But he came back with no limp and all was good. I didn't even see him break his nose, and if he did, he just kept playing like he was in trench warfare.

1 thing that was really annoying tho was that damn dj, his mic was so friggin loud my ears are still ringing. just spin the freakin records and shut up or at least turn that thing down :p

Natston
03-28-2004, 11:24 PM
I was also at the game (up in the nose bleed section). Jo was clutch down the stretch... :devil:

PaceBalls
03-29-2004, 01:04 AM
lmao! the east coast lawnmowers :))

Peck
03-29-2004, 03:20 AM
Let me start with the Miami Heat.

The Heat do a great job, better than any team I have seen all season, at trapping the pick and roll and rotating out of that trap, often cutting off the two easiest passes. They also double team very hard and yet they appear to never leave anyone open. It seemed like they had 6 defenders. Very, very well coached team. Looks like a Pat Riley coached team to me, a lot of credit needs to go to Stan Van Gundy. They have a lot of very athletic guys, so that makes their defense tough.

On to the Pacers, I know many of you will say the Pacers did not play well, I disagree, the Heat's defense will make you look bad.

Was that the best terrible game you have ever seen a player play. I am talking about Ron Artest. He had 6 steals, several other deflections that lead to steals, and he got the whole Heat team into foul trouble. The terrible part were the turnovers and missed shots, but he got two huge steals in the last 2 minutes and the two biggest rebs of the game.

Even Ronnie's "bad" games are great

J.O. was key, he hit big shot after big shot in the second half and also had a few huge blocked shots.

Rick Carlisle was fuming mad at Tinsley for that home run pass late in the game, you don't see Rick get mad at individual players too often, does anyone who was at the game know what Rick yelled at Tinsley.

Is Jeff becoming an offensive machine?

AJ played well tonight as did Freddie, I thought for a minute there Rick was going to finish the game with those two, but Reggie and Jamaal came back in the game a few minutes later than normal.

Looking at the schedules of teams like the Bucks, Hornets, and Heat, the Pacers are more likely to face the Heat in the second round than in the first. Heat are a very well coached team

I hate that btw.

The double standard that he shows to certain players sometimes drives me up a wall. His pass was no more stupid than any number of shot selections that Artest does in any given game, yet Rick chooses to "let those go" without comment.

BTW, you are correct about the Heat. If they could only get a better big man, no offense to Grant but at this stage he would be a better backup, they have the basis for a very solid team.

Riley's coaching certainly has rubbed off on Stan Van Gundy.

Hicks
03-29-2004, 09:09 AM
I hate that btw.

The double standard that he shows to certain players sometimes drives me up a wall. His pass was no more stupid than any number of shot selections that Artest does in any given game, yet Rick chooses to "let those go" without comment.

Totally disagree. Ron's shot select isn't as blatantly stupid as Jamaal trying to make a "home run" pass very late in the game when the Heat are still within striking distance.

Peck
03-29-2004, 09:18 AM
I hate that btw.

The double standard that he shows to certain players sometimes drives me up a wall. His pass was no more stupid than any number of shot selections that Artest does in any given game, yet Rick chooses to "let those go" without comment.

Totally disagree. Ron's shot select isn't as blatantly stupid as Jamaal trying to make a "home run" pass very late in the game when the Heat are still within striking distance.

I'm not just talking about this game btw, although how many times did Ron run the shot clock down yesterday by holding the ball & then flicking up some wild shot. His shot selection just doesn't show the immediate result like Jamaal's bad passes do, but if he misses & the the other team gets the ball it's the same result.

I stand by my statement, I think there is a double standard. But hey, it's Carlisle's right to have the double standard if he wants to. It's just not my preferance.

Will Galen
03-29-2004, 10:05 AM
I'm not just talking about this game btw, although how many times did Ron run the shot clock down yesterday by holding the ball & then flicking up some wild shot. His shot selection just doesn't show the immediate result like Jamaal's bad passes do, but if he misses & the the other team gets the ball it's the same result.

I stand by my statement, I think there is a double standard. But hey, it's Carlisle's right to have the double standard if he wants to. It's just not my preferance.

I don't think Rick has a double standard.

I don't think it's a double standard to give your better players more leeway. I think every good coach does that. A double standard would be when you have players of equal ability and you pull one for a bonehead play, but you don't the other for doing the same thing.

Then again a lot of times a perceived double standard comes about because of circumstances. Say you have two point guards and you pull the first because of a bad pass. Then the second makes the same mistake, what do you do? You don't have a third point guard to go to, so you're left with switching points again or giving the 2nd guy another chance. Usually you're equally dissatisfied with both so you might as well leave the 2nd guy out there until he makes another mistake. Not a double standard, just circumstances.

I've seen Rick pull both players for bonehead plays so there's no double standard there.

Tinsley's bonehead pass last night was magnified because it was in the last minute of the ballgame when you should be taking special care of the ball not making risky passes.

With Tinsley, it's you can take the player out of the playground but it's very hard to take the playground out of the player.

Pig Nash
03-29-2004, 10:16 AM
I'm not just talking about this game btw, although how many times did Ron run the shot clock down yesterday by holding the ball & then flicking up some wild shot. His shot selection just doesn't show the immediate result like Jamaal's bad passes do, but if he misses & the the other team gets the ball it's the same result.

I stand by my statement, I think there is a double standard. But hey, it's Carlisle's right to have the double standard if he wants to. It's just not my preferance.

I don't think Rick has a double standard.

I don't think it's a double standard to give your better players more leeway. I think every good coach does that. A double standard would be when you have players of equal ability and you pull one for a bonehead play, but you don't the other for doing the same thing.

Then again a lot of times a perceived double standard comes about because of circumstances. Say you have two point guards and you pull the first because of a bad pass. Then the second makes the same mistake, what do you do? You don't have a third point guard to go to, so you're left with switching points again or giving the 2nd guy another chance. Usually you're equally dissatisfied with both so you might as well leave the 2nd guy out there until he makes another mistake. Not a double standard, just circumstances.

I've seen Rick pull both players for bonehead plays so there's no double standard there.

Tinsley's bonehead pass last night was magnified because it was in the last minute of the ballgame when you should be taking special care of the ball not making risky passes.

With Tinsley, it's you can take the player out of the playground but it's very hard to take the playground out of the player.

I agree. Ron should get a bit more leeway than Tinsley. And i'm still not sure that Rick is completely sold on Tins. And as for the playground part, I think he's gotten most of that out of his system. He's been a lot better this year.

Peck
03-29-2004, 10:23 AM
I'm not just talking about this game btw, although how many times did Ron run the shot clock down yesterday by holding the ball & then flicking up some wild shot. His shot selection just doesn't show the immediate result like Jamaal's bad passes do, but if he misses & the the other team gets the ball it's the same result.

I stand by my statement, I think there is a double standard. But hey, it's Carlisle's right to have the double standard if he wants to. It's just not my preferance.

I don't think Rick has a double standard.

I don't think it's a double standard to give your better players more leeway. I think every good coach does that. A double standard would be when you have players of equal ability and you pull one for a bonehead play, but you don't the other for doing the same thing.

Then again a lot of times a perceived double standard comes about because of circumstances. Say you have two point guards and you pull the first because of a bad pass. Then the second makes the same mistake, what do you do? You don't have a third point guard to go to, so you're left with switching points again or giving the 2nd guy another chance. Usually you're equally dissatisfied with both so you might as well leave the 2nd guy out there until he makes another mistake. Not a double standard, just circumstances.

I've seen Rick pull both players for bonehead plays so there's no double standard there.

Tinsley's bonehead pass last night was magnified because it was in the last minute of the ballgame when you should be taking special care of the ball not making risky passes.

With Tinsley, it's you can take the player out of the playground but it's very hard to take the playground out of the player.

How much more leeway does the better player get? One bad pass vs. five bad shots? 10 - 1?

If Ron took a bad shot once & nothing happened & Jamaal did a bad pass once & nothing happened then I could see your point. But for every bad pass that Jamaal has thrown Ron has shot at least 5 bad shots.

Also I disagree with the entire concept of letting your better player have more leeway.

I don't agree that Iverson should be allowed to not practice while the rest of the team has to. I know it's not the same thing but it's the same princaple.

What's good for one player is good for all players IMO.

But hey, this is Artest were talking about here. I don't know that I am going to get anybody to agree with me online about him.

You wouldn't even want to hear my part about Ron not being a better player. Yes, I know U.B.'s head is about to explode.

Hicks
03-29-2004, 10:25 AM
Artest >> Tinsley

MagicRat
03-29-2004, 10:39 AM
How much more leeway does the better player get? One bad pass vs. five bad shots? 10 - 1.

Hey, let's not forget that Ron turns it over more than Jamaal, too. 2.86/G to 2.15/G...........

Unclebuck
03-29-2004, 11:08 AM
How much more leeway does the better player get? One bad pass vs. five bad shots? 10 - 1?

If Ron took a bad shot once & nothing happened & Jamaal did a bad pass once & nothing happened then I could see your point. But for every bad pass that Jamaal has thrown Ron has shot at least 5 bad shots.

Also I disagree with the entire concept of letting your better player have more leeway.

I don't agree that Iverson should be allowed to not practice while the rest of the team has to. I know it's not the same thing but it's the same princaple.

What's good for one player is good for all players IMO.

But hey, this is Artest were talking about here. I don't know that I am going to get anybody to agree with me online about him.

You wouldn't even want to hear my part about Ron not being a better player. Yes, I know U.B.'s head is about to explode.





I was content not to enter into this discussion, but then I read your comment Peck. "Ron not being a better player" Better than Tinsley? Or better than Ronnie was last season? If my head is going to explode, I would like it to explode for the right reason. :laugh:


The question is, if Ron would have thrown that same exact pass in that situation, what would Rick have done. (keep in mind Tinsley was not yanked from the game) I don't know, Rick would not have been too happy with Ronnie.

In a more general sense, I agree with Peck, every player should be held to the same standard, every player should be expected to: play hard, be on time, follow game plan, "play the right way".

Should every player be treated the exact same? This is a tougher question. It is the carrot or the stick question. Some players respond to a stick while others respond better to a carrot



As to the bad shots Ronnie took yesterday. Ronnie admitted it to the media afterward. But he was being aggressive, he was getting to the line

Will Galen
03-29-2004, 12:16 PM
[quote="Peck"]

How much more leeway does the better player get? One bad pass vs. five bad shots? 10 - 1?

Your coming across as saying it's a double standard if the coach lets one player get away with more mistakes than another. Of course you do! Of course you let the Kevin Garnett's of the game take five bad shots to Fred Hoilberg's one bad pass. And yes in some cases 10 to 1.

If Ron took a bad shot once & nothing happened & Jamaal did a bad pass once & nothing happened then I could see your point. But for every bad pass that Jamaal has thrown Ron has shot at least 5 bad shots.

Your not looking at this right. You should look at a players total game not just mistake for mistake.

Also I disagree with the entire concept of letting your better player have more leeway.

I don't agree that Iverson should be allowed to not practice while the rest of the team has to. I know it's not the same thing but it's the same principle.

I agree with you on Iverson, but as you said it's not the same thing and principle doesn't count in this case.

I agree all players should be treated equal . . . except on the playing floor where some are better than others. Since they are not equal it would be a mistake to treat them as such.

The same principle exists in other games, even in life. In the game of chess for instant, the pieces are not equal and anyone treating them as such will lose quickly. In life try treating your wife like any other women . . . hehe. You will really lose then!

You wouldn't even want to hear my part about Ron not being a better player. Yes, I know U.B.'s head is about to explode.

<shaking head> You wanted to disagree with Jose and couldn't so now you are just disagreeing to be disagreeing. You wouldn't get that one to fly anywhere.

Roy Munson
03-29-2004, 02:26 PM
How much more leeway does the better player get? One bad pass vs. five bad shots? 10 - 1?

If Ron took a bad shot once & nothing happened & Jamaal did a bad pass once & nothing happened then I could see your point. But for every bad pass that Jamaal has thrown Ron has shot at least 5 bad shots.

Also I disagree with the entire concept of letting your better player have more leeway.


If Tinsley was the best defender in the league, RC would probably give him a little more leeway on the offensive end.

Indyfan
03-30-2004, 11:31 AM
I also think it is important to point out that Tins. needs to make very good decisions with the ball during the playoffs. 1 stupid pass at the end of a playoff game could cost you the series, its just that important. Tins. is the starting point guard and he has to take responsibility and be held accountable for playground stuff, this is the NBA not the backyard. If Rick had pulled him then maybe he was overreacting, but he left him in.

Ron is a completely different type of player and person, to think Rick can treat them the same is to disregard the differences. Rick has managed to bring out the best in ron for most of this year, he has also been tough on him and shown him the bench when necessary. The past few games Ron's will and determination have been the difference so yes he should have some leeway. Ron also admitted his mistakes after the game and is continually trying to get better, his attitude doesn't need adjusting right now.

The other thing is we don't know if Rick specifically told Tins. to take care of the ball or to slow things down, etc. during their last time out. Its very possible Rick was so upset and showed it for good reason. I know Rick is one of the best at managing the clock and possesions down the stretch of close games. We have won far more then we lost this year because of it.

And yes Ron turns it over more than Tins. but he also has many more steals and defensive plays to couter the turnovers.

Ragnar
03-30-2004, 12:07 PM
You know at first I did think he was yelling at Tins but I saw a replay of it and he was yelling at the reff saying it had hit Fosters hand and that the clock should have started and that they should have to take it out at this end. I am sure he did yell at him later but the things he was saying then were about the clock.

The bottom line is that I doubt Tins would have made that play if it were a 3 or 2 point game. But it wasnt it was a 5 point game and we won. People in here are acting like it cost us the game or the champoinship or something. It was a possible home run pass that did not hurt the Pacers that it didnt work. Had he connected you guys would all be in here praising his ability to kill the other team.

Tins has stones and sometimes the shot wont go in or the pass will be off the fingertips. But the bottom line it that a lot of those plays win games for the Pacers and he has the guts to make those plays. I would not trade him for just about anyone right now not even Jason Kidd. (of coure that is because Kidd is getting older and he is injured)

MagicRat
03-30-2004, 12:15 PM
You know at first I did think he was yelling at Tins but I saw a replay of it and he was yelling at the reff saying it had hit Fosters hand and that the clock should have started and that they should have to take it out at this end. I am sure he did yell at him later but the things he was saying then were about the clock.

Based on my lip reading at the time, I thought he initially told Jamaal "He has to be wide open......." My recording cut off with about 2 mins. to go in the game, so I can't re-watch.....

Indyfan
03-30-2004, 02:36 PM
You know at first I did think he was yelling at Tins but I saw a replay of it and he was yelling at the reff saying it had hit Fosters hand and that the clock should have started and that they should have to take it out at this end. I am sure he did yell at him later but the things he was saying then were about the clock.

The bottom line is that I doubt Tins would have made that play if it were a 3 or 2 point game. But it wasnt it was a 5 point game and we won. People in here are acting like it cost us the game or the champoinship or something. It was a possible home run pass that did not hurt the Pacers that it didnt work. Had he connected you guys would all be in here praising his ability to kill the other team.

Tins has stones and sometimes the shot wont go in or the pass will be off the fingertips. But the bottom line it that a lot of those plays win games for the Pacers and he has the guts to make those plays. I would not trade him for just about anyone right now not even Jason Kidd. (of coure that is because Kidd is getting older and he is injured)

I didn't mean it to come off that he cost us that game even, it was more just to give coach the benefit of the doubt about why he would have yelled at Tins. if indeed that was what happened. My point about the playoffs is just that it could cost us badly then and knowing Rick's style he wants conservative play over risky plays in that situation.

I didn't see it so I was getting my impressions from the things that were written here. Sorry if I got the wrong impression. I also think Tins is a huge part of our possible success in the post season, he has been the difference for us at the point since he got his chance this year.
:gopacers: