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Unclebuck
03-28-2004, 01:18 PM
I wonder if Lenny Wilkens ran the practices



http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/basketball/8297918.htm


Thomas orders two-a-days

Battered, bruised and beaten down, the Knicks were looking forward to two days off before playing the Nets recently.

But the Knicks' joy turned into disgust when Isiah Thomas, the team's president of basketball operations, ordered the Knicks to stage two-a-day workouts during their two off days. The players, of course, were not thrilled.

"I was definitely shocked," forward Kurt Thomas said. "I'm pretty sure nobody was happy about it."

Isiah Thomas defended his actions, saying he is trying to prepare his team for the rigorous stretch run and playoffs.

"We did it in Indiana my first year," he said. "I mean, if you're falling out, you have to put it back together. If you depend on an hour a day in March, it ain't going to happen."

MSA2CF
03-28-2004, 01:21 PM
I agree with him that his team needs it, but I'm still not sure I would have gone over my coach's head and commanded that they do it...I may have suggested it to Lenny, but not order him.

Roaming Gnome
03-28-2004, 01:24 PM
I am not really suprised, Lenny kinda gave me the impression of being a puppet just because Isiah did have real coaches to chose from but, show up to the party with Lenny. Not suprised one bit. Imagine if he would have went over Mike Fratello's head...

Shade
03-29-2004, 12:53 AM
Newsflash Zeke - You are NOT the coach. :rolleyes:

Southside_Pacer
03-29-2004, 02:15 AM
Newsflash Zeke - You are NOT the coach. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be shocked if he is eventually. :confused:

bulletproof
03-29-2004, 02:26 AM
"We did it in Indiana my first year," he said. "I mean, if you're falling out, you have to put it back together. If you depend on an hour a day in March, it ain't going to happen."


Yeah, worked for you here, Isiah, didn't it? :unimpressed:

Bball
03-29-2004, 04:48 AM
I dunno... sounds like more Bob Knight style stuff. I really think Isiah brought a bunch of that to the NBA bench.

I'm talking about the headgame stuff... such as working his players even harder when they were expecting a break....

Next thing you know he will be scheduling practices AFTER the team is eliminated from the playoffs but while the playoffs continue for other teams. (Read Season on the Brink if you don't know what I'm talking about (altho I assume everyone probably knows the story).

-Bball

DisplacedKnick
03-29-2004, 09:44 AM
That was quite a while ago - don't even remember when, exactly.

Zeke's reasoning was that there was no way the new, facelifted team could learn to play together without something more than the normal practice schedule.

I don't disagree with his theory, particularly, but the solution didn't work - gonna be impossible to evaluate that team until they have a full training camp together so we can see if they actually play some defense.

Isiah's GM tenure hasn't particularly changed my opinion of him. He's good mainly at self-promotion and evading responsibility. The excuses are flying and now he's talking about how hard the team has fought for the playoffs even though they can't be bothered to defend and half the time don't look like they care.

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 10:35 AM
"We did it in Indiana my first year," he said. "I mean, if you're falling out, you have to put it back together. If you depend on an hour a day in March, it ain't going to happen."


Yeah, worked for you here, Isiah, didn't it? :unimpressed:

Weren't we in the playoffs all three years he coached here... with, like, the youngest team in basketball?

:rolleyes:

The Knicks stink, and their roster is full of notoriously LAZY players (Stephon, Kurt Thomas. etc.). Isiah is asserting his will, and getting his guys to work harder and play harder. He does not want to make the playoffs with a losing record.

Now, I ask you, what is so wrong with thinking like that? Simple, nothing. You people need to let this Isiah thing go. If YOU were a Knicks fan and your team was in the position the Knicks were in, you'd DEMAND the coach or GM kick the team in the butt and make them work harder. Have you guys even WATCHED a Knicks game not involving the Pacers this year? They STINK on defense because they don't seem to care.

Isiah's doing the right thing.

MagicRat
03-29-2004, 10:48 AM
"We did it in Indiana my first year," he said. "I mean, if you're falling out, you have to put it back together. If you depend on an hour a day in March, it ain't going to happen."


Yeah, worked for you here, Isiah, didn't it? :unimpressed:

Weren't we in the playoffs all three years he coached here... with, like, the youngest team in basketball?

:rolleyes:

The Knicks stink, and their roster is full of notoriously LAZY players (Stephon, Kurt Thomas. etc.). Isiah is asserting his will, and getting his guys to work harder and play harder. He does not want to make the playoffs with a losing record.

Now, I ask you, what is so wrong with thinking like that? Simple, nothing. You people need to let this Isiah thing go. If YOU were a Knicks fan and your team was in the position the Knicks were in, you'd DEMAND the coach or GM kick the team in the butt and make them work harder. Have you guys even WATCHED a Knicks game not involving the Pacers this year? They STINK on defense because they don't seem to care.

Isiah's doing the right thing.

Shut your mouth about my Lucille! ;)

Will Galen
03-29-2004, 10:57 AM
He does not want to make the playoffs with a losing record.

Where did you read that? If that is your opinion you need to say so. I don't think Isiah cares if they have a losing record (and they will) as long as they make the playoffs.

Personally I don't want them to make it and it has nothing to do with Isiah. I just hate both the Laker's and Knick's.

MSA2CF
03-29-2004, 11:23 AM
Weren't we in the playoffs all three years he coached here... with, like, the youngest team in basketball? :rolleyes:

Didn't we lose in the 1st round, like, all three years? :P

The Knicks stink, and their roster is full of notoriously LAZY players (Stephon, Kurt Thomas. etc.). Isiah is asserting his will, and getting his guys to work harder and play harder.

That is so true. I don't blame him for doing so, but I would just mention it to the coach rather than take control. (I guess that's why I'm here and he's in New York. ;) )

Isiah's doing the right thing.

Larry did the right thing too. :laugh:

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 11:24 AM
He does not want to make the playoffs with a losing record.

Where did you read that? If that is your opinion you need to say so. I don't think Isiah cares if they have a losing record (and they will) as long as they make the playoffs.

Personally I don't want them to make it and it has nothing to do with Isiah. I just hate both the Laker's and Knick's.

You don't have to look very far to see there is nothing in Isiah's personality that suggests he'd be "content" making the playoffs with a losing record. He confronted the team after a WIN against Washington last week. Will he take it? Sure. Is it something to be proud of? Not really. Therefore, it's a little more than just my opinion.

Side note: This is a message to the Knick players: when you play THAT POORLY against the Pistons, don't whine when you are expected to PRACTICE HARD the next day?

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 11:27 AM
Weren't we in the playoffs all three years he coached here... with, like, the youngest team in basketball? :rolleyes:

Didn't we lose in the 1st round, like, all three years? :P

Average age of the team: 24. If you expected Isiah to beat Philly and NJ his first two years, you have ridiculous expectations. I can understand being upset over the Boston lose, but I watched that whole series and it wasn't coaching error. Players play, and ours didn't play well.

The Knicks stink, and their roster is full of notoriously LAZY players (Stephon, Kurt Thomas. etc.). Isiah is asserting his will, and getting his guys to work harder and play harder.

That is so true. I don't blame him for doing so, but I would just mention it to the coach rather than take control. (I guess that's why I'm here and he's in New York. ;) )

Is there anything that suggests he DIDN'T inform Wilkins?

Isiah's doing the right thing.

Larry did the right thing too. :laugh:

Not is Indy loses in the first round of the playoffs. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, I want Bird and Carlisle's heads on a stick!

MSA2CF
03-29-2004, 11:33 AM
Average age of the team: 24. If you expected Isiah to beat Philly and NJ his first two years, you have ridiculous expectations. I can understand being upset over the Boston lose, but I watched that whole series and it wasn't coaching error. Players play, and ours didn't play well.

First year versus Philly, yes, I could expect my expectations to be too high, but they did have Jalen Rose and Jermaine O'Neal and Reggie Miller (still playing at a relatively high level). We took New Jersey to 5 games--double overtime...How could my expectations have been ridiculous for that one? We should have won-IMO. Yes, Boston broke my heart. If they're the 8th seed this year, I will be mildly scared, but we should have a lot more motivation than they would have.


Is there anything that suggests he DIDN'T inform Wilkins?

No, probably not, but "Thomas orders two-a-days" makes it sound like my point is correct.


Not if Indy loses in the first round of the playoffs. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, I want Bird and Carlisle's heads on a stick!

And YOU were the one saying we should let it go. :rolleyes:

grace
03-29-2004, 12:05 PM
No, probably not, but "Thomas orders two-a-days" makes it sound like my point is correct.



Why does everyone assume Isiah laid down the law and said there would be two-a-days? Don't you think maybe that while he and Lenny were talking about the sorry state of their team one of them threw out the idea that maybe to give the team a kick in the rear they should have two-a-days. Maybe it was even Lenny's idea and Isiah said "Let's do it." :idea:

MSA2CF
03-29-2004, 12:09 PM
Why does everyone assume Isiah laid down the law and said there would be two-a-days?

I assumed it because the headline said "orders," but I can't speak for everyone else.

Shade
03-29-2004, 12:23 PM
NewYawk,

The point is, Isiah is overstepping his bounds. He is NOT the coach, and this little stunt just proves what a lot of us suspected -- Lenny was hired to be his puppet.

Shade
03-29-2004, 12:25 PM
No, probably not, but "Thomas orders two-a-days" makes it sound like my point is correct.



Why does everyone assume Isiah laid down the law and said there would be two-a-days?

Because of this quote:

"But the Knicks' joy turned into disgust when Isiah Thomas, the team's president of basketball operations, ordered the Knicks to stage two-a-day workouts during their two off days. "

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 12:32 PM
NewYawk,

The point is, Isiah is overstepping his bounds. He is NOT the coach, and this little stunt just proves what a lot of us suspected -- Lenny was hired to be his puppet.

Overstepped his bounds? He's the GM. He sees his team playing horrible even when they win. I don't know if you understand this Shade, but it is imperative the Knicks make the playoffs. And should they do so, Thomas wants them to actually COMPETE in the playoffs.

Now, I agree with you that Wilkins is clearly not the guy Thomas wanted. Then again, he is clearly an upgrade for Chaney, who stunk.

The headline is misleading and dumb. If Wilkins comes out and says "I'm against this," then you have a point. But perhaps this was something agreed upon by Thomas and Wilkins, and it comes off looking like an order. If not, then Thomas's actions are even MORE justifed. If Wilkins doesn't make these players practice harder after their horrific performances this past weekend, he's a bad coach and Thomas needed to step in.

Either way, there's NOTHING wrong with Thomas's actions. Nothing. Again, if YOU were a Knick fan, you'd be glad Thomas is doing this. The Knicks are friggin LAZY as hell.

Unclebuck
03-29-2004, 01:06 PM
If Bird orders Carlisle to do anything, I won't like it. Coaches are paid to coach. They coach the players the owner and GM gets for him. But I don't believe a GM or owner should order a coach to play so and so, or practice like this or that. If GM disagrees, then they can fire the coach.

Now certainly GM's can suggest things

Doug
03-29-2004, 01:17 PM
If your boss begins overriding your decisions, decisions that are clearly your responsibilities, several things happen, all bad. Your employees lose respect for you, because your boss clearly does not respect you. You lose respect for your boss, because he's eroding your authority. Your employees get p!ssed, at the confusion if nothing else.

Having your superior micro-manage your job is a bad thing in any industry, including the NBA.

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 01:22 PM
If your boss begins overriding your decisions, decisions that are clearly your responsibilities, several things happen, all bad. Your employees lose respect for you, because your boss clearly does not respect you. You lose respect for your boss, because he's eroding your authority. Your employees get p!ssed, at the confusion if nothing else.

Having your superior micro-manage your job is a bad thing in any industry, including the NBA.

And what those employees are doing a bad job? If the employees are stinking up the workplace with a bad work ethic (watch the Knicks play and you'll know what I mean), that's usually when the big dawg himself comes down and asserts himself. If the employees don't like it (mind you, these employees are making serious money) they can just deal with it.

Bball
03-29-2004, 02:17 PM
Not is Indy loses in the first round of the playoffs. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, I want Bird and Carlisle's heads on a stick!

:bs: :rotflmao:

Bball

Shade
03-29-2004, 02:23 PM
NewYawk,

The point is, Isiah is overstepping his bounds. He is NOT the coach, and this little stunt just proves what a lot of us suspected -- Lenny was hired to be his puppet.

Overstepped his bounds? He's the GM. He sees his team playing horrible even when they win. I don't know if you understand this Shade, but it is imperative the Knicks make the playoffs. And should they do so, Thomas wants them to actually COMPETE in the playoffs.

Now, I agree with you that Wilkins is clearly not the guy Thomas wanted. Then again, he is clearly an upgrade for Chaney, who stunk.

The headline is misleading and dumb. If Wilkins comes out and says "I'm against this," then you have a point. But perhaps this was something agreed upon by Thomas and Wilkins, and it comes off looking like an order. If not, then Thomas's actions are even MORE justifed. If Wilkins doesn't make these players practice harder after their horrific performances this past weekend, he's a bad coach and Thomas needed to step in.

Either way, there's NOTHING wrong with Thomas's actions. Nothing. Again, if YOU were a Knick fan, you'd be glad Thomas is doing this. The Knicks are friggin LAZY as hell.

See, to me, he IS overstepping his bounds. You hire a coach to coach. Not happy with the coaching? Fire him and bring in a replacement. Isiah's being a control freak.

And I think Isiah DID get the guy he wanted in Wilkins. It's not a big secret that he wants to coach again, and by getting a nice guy like Lenny, he can basically coach vicariously through him. That's what I see here. Whether the 2-a-days are warranted or not is not the point. The point is it's the coach's decision to make, not the GM's. And if Zeke is doing this now, what makes him think any other coaches are going to want to come in and work under him, if he's just going to undermine them anyway?

Shade
03-29-2004, 02:26 PM
If your boss begins overriding your decisions, decisions that are clearly your responsibilities, several things happen, all bad. Your employees lose respect for you, because your boss clearly does not respect you. You lose respect for your boss, because he's eroding your authority. Your employees get p!ssed, at the confusion if nothing else.

Having your superior micro-manage your job is a bad thing in any industry, including the NBA.

And what those employees are doing a bad job? If the employees are stinking up the workplace with a bad work ethic (watch the Knicks play and you'll know what I mean), that's usually when the big dawg himself comes down and asserts himself. If the employees don't like it (mind you, these employees are making serious money) they can just deal with it.

Then said employees are generally fired.

bulletproof
03-29-2004, 02:48 PM
Not if Indy loses in the first round of the playoffs. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, I want Bird and Carlisle's heads on a stick!

Pshaw! It is to laugh.

1.) If for some reason the Pacers don't get out of the first round, Larry and Rick aren't going anywhere.

2.) By all accounts, this team is weaker on paper than last year's team, yet they've won 6 more games than last year, and still have 9 more to play. It's likely they'll win 60 or more. I'll let you figure out why that is (hint: it's a word that rhymes with poaching).

There will be no heads on sticks regardless of how the rest of the season plays out. As far as I'm concerned, this year has already been resoundingly more successful than last year in so much as with Carlisle, we have a clearer picture of this team, whereas under Isiah it was completely muddled.

Shade
03-29-2004, 02:53 PM
Not if Indy loses in the first round of the playoffs. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, I want Bird and Carlisle's heads on a stick!

Pshaw! It is to laugh.

1.) If for some reason the Pacers don't get out of the first round, Larry and Rick aren't going anywhere.

2.) By all accounts, this team is weaker on paper than last year's team, yet they've won 6 more games than last year, and still have 9 more to play. It's likely they'll win 60 or more. I'll let you figure out why that is (hint: it's a word that rhymes with poaching).

There will be no heads on sticks regardless of how the rest of the season plays out. As far as I'm concerned, this year has already been resoundingly more successful than last year in so much as with Carlisle, we have a clearer picture of this team, whereas under Isiah it was completely muddled.

The Pacers won't lose in the first round. Hell, they may not lose a GAME in the first round.

Suaveness
03-29-2004, 02:53 PM
We won't lose in the first round. I guarentee it. ;)

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 03:50 PM
Not if Indy loses in the first round of the playoffs. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, I want Bird and Carlisle's heads on a stick!

Pshaw! It is to laugh.

1.) If for some reason the Pacers don't get out of the first round, Larry and Rick aren't going anywhere.

Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.

Just imagine the outcry if Thomas took a 1 seed to the playoffs and lost to and 8th seed. He wouldn't get out of the building alive. to not hold Carlisle to that same standard is hypocricy.

Simple as that.

2.) By all accounts, this team is weaker on paper than last year's team, yet they've won 6 more games than last year, and still have 9 more to play. It's likely they'll win 60 or more. I'll let you figure out why that is (hint: it's a word that rhymes with poaching).

There will be no heads on sticks regardless of how the rest of the season plays out. As far as I'm concerned, this year has already been resoundingly more successful than last year in so much as with Carlisle, we have a clearer picture of this team, whereas under Isiah it was completely muddled.

I'm interested in how you think this team is worse "on paper." Last season, the Pacers were ranked 13th defensively. This year, the'yre 3rd. Last year they were 9th in forcing TOs. This year, they're 5th. Last year, they were +3.5 in points scored/given up. This year, they're +5.4. So, by all accounts, the whole notion that last year we were better on paper is misinformed. Next time, KNOW what you're talking about before you make such a statement.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=tos&league=nba&season=2003&seasontype=2&avg=pg&order=true&split=999

Understand this Bulletproof: I am not going to change your mind, but your opinion is both misinformed, and biased for reasons that seem to have nothing to do with basketball. Carlisle is an excellent coach, but he is winning with Isiah's team; a team he built, taught, and coached; a team that always credited him with there growth and maturity. Isiah was a good coach. Carisle is an EXCELLENT coach. THAT'S the difference. It is not as extreme as you HOPE it is.

Bball
03-29-2004, 03:50 PM
There will be no heads on sticks regardless of how the rest of the season plays out. As far as I'm concerned, this year has already been resoundingly more successful than last year in so much as with Carlisle, we have a clearer picture of this team, whereas under Isiah it was completely muddled.

....Exactly.... We know what we have.

-Bball

Gyron
03-29-2004, 03:58 PM
Newyawk,

We have gotten from almost every post you have ever made on this board that you believe Isiah Thomas was gods gift to the Pacers. Why must you continue to bring every single argument to to same thing?

Here are the facts:
1. You believe Isiah was a good coach.
2. Most others on this Board believe Isiah was a mediocre coach.

Can we not leave it at that and stop having EVERY single post from you reverting all arguments to a Isiah vs. Carlise thread?

Please?

Thank you.

MSA2CF
03-29-2004, 03:59 PM
Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy?

Isiah only had one year left on his contract when he was fired, which made it all that easier to get rid of him.
I don't know, but I think Rick has a few more years left after this season.

MagicRat
03-29-2004, 04:06 PM
I'm interested in how you think this team is worse "on paper."

Ragnar and Peck are going to be upset if you don't think the loss of an all-star center makes the team weaker on paper......

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 04:13 PM
I'm interested in how you think this team is worse "on paper."

Ragnar and Peck are going to be upset if you don't think the loss of an all-star center makes the team weaker on paper......

Addition by subtraction. Would the Pacers be "Better" with Allen Iverson on the team?

Will Galen
03-29-2004, 04:24 PM
You don't have to look very far to see there is nothing in Isiah's personality that suggests he'd be "content" making the playoffs with a losing record. He confronted the team after a WIN against Washington last week. Will he take it? Sure. Is it something to be proud of? Not really. Therefore, it's a little more than just my opinion.

Of course he's not content with losing, he's a competative guy. However, Isiah ALWAYS puts a positive spin on anything he does. He said last week, ". . . the Knicks' season won't be considered a failure if they don't make the playoffs. . ."

Doug
03-29-2004, 04:25 PM
If your boss begins overriding your decisions, decisions that are clearly your responsibilities, several things happen, all bad. Your employees lose respect for you, because your boss clearly does not respect you. You lose respect for your boss, because he's eroding your authority. Your employees get p!ssed, at the confusion if nothing else.

Having your superior micro-manage your job is a bad thing in any industry, including the NBA.

And what those employees are doing a bad job? If the employees are stinking up the workplace with a bad work ethic (watch the Knicks play and you'll know what I mean), that's usually when the big dawg himself comes down and asserts himself. If the employees don't like it (mind you, these employees are making serious money) they can just deal with it.


So, the "big dawg" comes down to the assembly line and chews out the Union workers and productivity goes up? And the line supervisor is cool with that?

MagicRat
03-29-2004, 04:32 PM
I'm interested in how you think this team is worse "on paper."

Ragnar and Peck are going to be upset if you don't think the loss of an all-star center makes the team weaker on paper......

Addition by subtraction. Would the Pacers be "Better" with Allen Iverson on the team?

On paper.......

ChicagoJ
03-29-2004, 04:36 PM
I'm interested in how you think this team is worse "on paper."

Ragnar and Peck are going to be upset if you don't think the loss of an all-star center makes the team weaker on paper......

Addition by subtraction. Would the Pacers be "Better" with Allen Iverson on the team?

Without giving up anything? Then by the very definition of "on paper" (generally meaning, add up all the player's stats), yes. If we have to give up JO? No. If we gave up Ron or Al instead? Maybe. If we gave up anybody else? Yes, again.

Clearly, on paper the Pacers are better off with Brad Miller and Ron Mercer than Scot Pollard + Kenny Anderson (for the sake of the argument, I'm assuming AJ's contract was small enough that he could have been signed to replace Erick Strickland anyway).

Slick Pinkham
03-29-2004, 04:44 PM
Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.


It's not hypocricy because the Boston-Indiana series was NOT an upset. It was completely predictable based upon how each team was playing for their respective coaches in the last few months of the season.

If it had been a 3 game series, or a 5 game series, or a 45 game series, the outcome would in my opinion have been the same. The team with less capable coaching whose players had given up on their coach and his philosophies would have gone down in flames.

If LeBron James comes out and torches the Pacers for 35 ppg, 12 assists/g, and 10 rpg and the Cavaliers somehow eeked out a round 1 win, I'd be upset, for sure. I would also be extremely surprised, unlike last year. I'd expect improvement for next year, with the Bird-Carlisle tandem having an offseason to mold this team to their liking. Give me an Isiah-like period of three years of one-and-done, where the team is ALWAYS better in December than in April, then I'd want another coaching change.


Just imagine the outcry if Thomas took a 1 seed to the playoffs...

If Isiah ever coached a team to a #1 seed, we could all go skating on Hell's new ice rink.

Doug
03-29-2004, 04:46 PM
If Isiah ever coached a team to a #1 seed, we could all go skating on Hell's new ice rink.

Do you think Hell's hockey team is named The Flying Pigs?

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 04:47 PM
[quote="NewYawk"][quote]


So, the "big dawg" comes down to the assembly line and chews out the Union workers and productivity goes up? And the line supervisor is cool with that?

Comparing an NBA franchise to an assembly line at an auto factory is a bit off. If the players aren't performing, and the coach is not demanding more, then the GM has a right to assert himself.

Whether or not this situation mirrors that is unclear.

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 04:49 PM
Tom, Indy's loss to Boston was indeed an upset.

ChicagoJ
03-29-2004, 04:51 PM
It's not hypocracy because the Boston-Indiana series was NOT an upset. It was completely predictable based upon how each team was playing for their respective coaches in the last few months of the season.

If it had been a 3 game series, or a 5 game series, or a 45 game series, the outcome would in my opinion have been the same. The team with less capable coaching whose players had given up on their coach and his philosophies would have gone down in flames.




Here's where I slightly disagree, Tom. Had the Pacers just made the coaching change mid-series (preferably after game #1) ... and it could have been as little of a move as making Brendan Malone the interim coach or the Pacers could have brought in my choice - JVG... then the Pacers at least advance to the second round.

MagicRat
03-29-2004, 04:52 PM
Tom, Indy's loss to Boston was indeed an upset.

On paper......

Hicks
03-29-2004, 04:52 PM
Tom, Indy's loss to Boston was indeed an upset.

Only in that the 3 seed did lose to the 6 seed. BUT, if the Pacers played the entire season like they did from about mid-late January through April, they would lucky to be an EIGHTH seed. The only reason the Pacers were 3rd was due to what they did before the all-star break. They fell apart in the 2nd half, and backed their way into the 3rd seed.

NewYawk
03-29-2004, 04:55 PM
Tom, Indy's loss to Boston was indeed an upset.

On paper......

As all upsets are.

Doug
03-29-2004, 04:57 PM
Comparing an NBA franchise to an assembly line at an auto factory is a bit off. If the players aren't performing, and the coach is not demanding more, then the GM has a right to assert himself.

Whether or not this situation mirrors that is unclear.

True, it's not perfect, no analogy is. But in both cases the employees have nothing to fear. It's very tough to fire a union worker, just as the NBA players have guarenteed salaries.

I expect in the auto plant, the line would actually move slower after the big boss came down. :-) I also think that disgruntled NBA players play worse - the Nets under Scott as an example - so I wouldn't be surprised to see the same outcome here.

On the other hand, the pride of an NBA player can be a powerful thing when wounded.

Slick Pinkham
03-29-2004, 05:06 PM
Tom, Indy's loss to Boston was indeed an upset.

I know that in the weeks leading up to the playoffs, Boston was fighting for positioning, and Boston fans and news media were HOPING the C's would draw the Pacers rather than any of the other top 4 seeds.

Bob Ryan and Peter May, among others, wrote how beatable the Pacers were long before the series even started. I know. Bob Ryan and Peter May are Boston-based sportwriters, they must be "homers"... yada, yada, yada... Actually they are pretty well disliked by super-diehard Celtics fans for NOT being homers.

And then you say "Oh, Boston fans thought their team might win?" and then insert the "rolleyes". Yes they did, and also most thought they's lose to ANYONE ELSE.

Go ahead an live your fantasy about the great-and-powerful Zeke masterfully running the show and being unjustly canned by the evil Bird-Walsh combo. Take your medication when the nurse comes by.

kerosene
03-29-2004, 05:11 PM
One of the Celts broadcasters (either TV or Radio) was on JT the Brick's show last year right before the P's/C's series and the way he felt about it was that the series was anyone's to win. His words were that both teams were "fragile" at the moment and whoever could get some momentum and confidence going would probably win the series. That's exactly what happened too.

bulletproof
03-29-2004, 05:32 PM
Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.


Isiah was fired for many reasons, the least of which was the Boston series. If that were the case, Donnie would have shitcanned him right after the playoffs.

ChicagoJ
03-29-2004, 05:35 PM
Lets not forget that is was the Boston media asking DW why Isiah wouldn't be fired during/ at the end of that series.

IMO, they identified our biggest weakness in last season's playoffs.

Hicks
03-29-2004, 05:44 PM
Lets not forget that is was the Boston media asking DW why Isiah wouldn't be fired during/ at the end of that series.

IMO, they identified our biggest weakness in last season's playoffs.

I remember that. The Indianapolis media didn't say much if anything about Isiah, but the OTHER TEAM'S MEDIA asked Donnie directly if Isiah was going to be fired, and when he said no, why not.

Slick Pinkham
03-29-2004, 05:49 PM
The Boston media's reaction to the hiring of Larry Bird was

1) great for Larry

2) too bad he couldn't be in Boston

3) I wonder how many days it will be before he recognizes the void at head coach for the Pacers.

ChicagoJ
03-29-2004, 07:04 PM
Lets not forget that is was the Boston media asking DW why Isiah wouldn't be fired during/ at the end of that series.

IMO, they identified our biggest weakness in last season's playoffs.

I remember that. The Indianapolis media didn't say much if anything about Isiah, but the OTHER TEAM'S MEDIA asked Donnie directly if Isiah was going to be fired, and when he said no, why not.


I remember reading at least three different articles in the Boston papers regarding that very subject. Got my hopes up that we'd do something while JVG was still on the market. I won't complain about Rick at all, but a man can dream, can't he? :)

Unclebuck
03-29-2004, 11:38 PM
The Boston media was ruthless towards Isiah during and after the Celts v Pacers series

Arcadian
03-30-2004, 12:20 AM
How could the Boston media have it out for Isiah? That is so strange.

Bball
03-30-2004, 02:00 AM
How could the Boston media have it out for Isiah? That is so strange.

Considering the Pistons vs Celtics rivalry from Isiah's playing days... I imagine Isiah was a focus to them and they have opinions that run deep and long.

Doesn't mean they were wrong about his coaching tho! :devil:

-Bball

Slick Pinkham
03-30-2004, 09:01 AM
There is an element of resentment of the Detroit Bad Boy Isiah to it, but I think also the Boston media is prone to freely criticize someone they think deserves it.

There has been much discussion about the Celtics making the playoffs this year-- do they really want to make it rather than having a lottery pick, and does it even matter if they have to face a high seed and get destroyed.

They are saying the same things about New Orleans and Tim Floyd that they said about Isiah and the Pacers last year-- they have poor coaching and are playing far below their talent level. That would be the ideal 1st round matchup for the Celtics from that perspective, though it's unlikely the C's could get up to the #5 seed. More likely is #8 and getting routed by the Pacers, or #6 and getting routed by the Pistons.

The realistic goal of Boston fans and local media analysts is somehow to get the #7 seed and play New Jersey with Kidd and/or Martin out, or less than 100%.

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 10:50 AM
Lets not forget that is was the Boston media asking DW why Isiah wouldn't be fired during/ at the end of that series.

IMO, they identified our biggest weakness in last season's playoffs.

I remember that. The Indianapolis media didn't say much if anything about Isiah, but the OTHER TEAM'S MEDIA asked Donnie directly if Isiah was going to be fired, and when he said no, why not.

That's because the Boston media hates Isiah. Always have. It's got nothing to do with journalism or asking the right questions. NY's media wasn't calling for Isiah's head, they're the best sports media on the planet.

Isiah was a celebrity, as well as a coach. If Alvin Gentry had been coaching us, the Boston media would not have been so vocal in calling out the differences in coaching. Isiah is a name, a "four letter word" in Boston.

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 10:52 AM
Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.


Isiah was fired for many reasons, the least of which was the Boston series. If that were the case, Donnie would have shitcanned him right after the playoffs.

Isiah was fired because Carlisle was available. That's it. No other reason. Bird was not going to fire Isiah and hire, say, Lenny Wilkins or Mike Fratello. Bird wanted to work with Rick, and thus fired Isiah.

Simle as that.

Slick Pinkham
03-30-2004, 11:48 AM
That's because the Boston media hates Isiah....Isiah is a name, a "four letter word" in Boston.

Please explain why there is discussion in the Boston media of Tim Floyd being a poor coach with a team that underperforms for their talent level, making the Hornets perhaps an "easy mark" in the playoffs. The same types of things said about Isiah and the Pacers a year ago.

I'm not aware of inherent animosity toward Tim Floyd. Is Floyd a celebrity too?

Maybe they just think he's a bad coach. Maybe they also just thought Isiah was not deserving of "coach of the year" honors last year, as you've suggested.

Hicks
03-30-2004, 11:53 AM
Always have. That's it. No other reason. Simple as that.

Just thought I'd take this opportunity to point out that it's when you add stuff like this to your opinion, it turns people off big time.

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 12:05 PM
Always have. That's it. No other reason. Simple as that.

Just thought I'd take this opportunity to point out that it's when you add stuff like this to your opinion, it turns people off big time.

I'm doing my best to be candide and accomidating. It's my personal opinion that when I say stuff like "Isiah is a good coach", I've turned off just about 60% of the forum.

Most of the time Hicks, I am not initially hostile. The venom usually starts with someone else, and I respond. Perhaps you should look into that a little more rather than critisize my use of "simple as that", which is not meant to belittle anyone. I just feel the reasoning is "that simple."

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 12:08 PM
That's because the Boston media hates Isiah....Isiah is a name, a "four letter word" in Boston.

Please explain why there is discussion in the Boston media of Tim Floyd being a poor coach with a team that underperforms for their talent level, making the Hornets perhaps an "easy mark" in the playoffs. The same types of things said about Isiah and the Pacers a year ago.

I'm not aware of inherent animosity toward Tim Floyd. Is Floyd a celebrity too?

Maybe they just think he's a bad coach. Maybe they also just thought Isiah was not deserving of "coach of the year" honors last year, as you've suggested.

Tim Floyd is not getting the same treatment from Boston media Isiah got. Boston media is more than welcome to bash Isiah or anyone else. However, Boston media is biased against Isiah, and to suggest otherwise is ignorance. And the NO situation is different than Indy's last year. The players in NO have lost all respect for Floyd, who is a terrible coach. The Pacers players never lost respect for Isiah last year. That's a fact. Despite the losing streak, the Pacers never stopped listening to Isiah, and they never blamed him. That is NOT what is happening in NO, where the playes have completely tuned out Floyd. The Hornets are also not going through the same issues the Pacers went through (multiple deaths/injuries to family members).

The situations are different. The coaches are different. Isiah is a far better coach than Floyd. The comparison is childish, foolish, and bad, bad journalism.

And last I checked, morons like Bob Ryan (who insulted Jason Kidd's wife last year for no reason other than the fact he is a prick) are not a reliable media source. The guy's a hack, and the moment you start listening to Bob Ryan and thinking he actually KNOWS what good/bad coaching is, that's the day you've descending into a pit of ignorance.

I'm sorry if this turns people off, but to compare Tim Floyd with Isiah Thomas is stupid and simplistic..

bulletproof
03-30-2004, 12:36 PM
Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.


Isiah was fired for many reasons, the least of which was the Boston series. If that were the case, Donnie would have shitcanned him right after the playoffs.

Isiah was fired because Carlisle was available. That's it. No other reason. Bird was not going to fire Isiah and hire, say, Lenny Wilkins or Mike Fratello. Bird wanted to work with Rick, and thus fired Isiah.

Simle as that.


Um, then why do you use the Boston series as the basis for your "I want Bird's and Rick's heads on a stick if the Pacers suffer a first-round playoff exit" argument? If that's not why Isiah was fired...

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 12:41 PM
Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.


Isiah was fired for many reasons, the least of which was the Boston series. If that were the case, Donnie would have shitcanned him right after the playoffs.

Isiah was fired because Carlisle was available. That's it. No other reason. Bird was not going to fire Isiah and hire, say, Lenny Wilkins or Mike Fratello. Bird wanted to work with Rick, and thus fired Isiah.

Simle as that.


Um, then why do you use the Boston series as the basis for your "I want Bird's and Rick's heads on a stick if the Pacers suffer a first-round playoff exit" argument? If that's not why Isiah was fired...

I don't believe Isiah was fired because of the Boston series. Other people do believe he was fired because of Boston. If they feel that way, then they should hold Carlisle to the same standard.

Slick Pinkham
03-30-2004, 12:46 PM
Tim Floyd is not getting the same treatment from Boston media Isiah got.

Sorry, I guess I must have been halluncinating on my commute home when AM 1510 interviewed Danny Ainge and owner Wyc Grosbeck and then spent an hour discussing whether of not it would be a good thing if the Celtics made the playoffs or not, and whether even if they did, any possible opponents were beatable.

My bad.

I was totally unaware of the vast media conspiracy against Isiah Thomas to deprive him of his coaching legacy, involving not just colunists Peter May, Bob Ryan, and "the sports guy" but also columnists Michael Holly, Jackie McMullin, Gerry Callahan, John Dennis, and Ryan Russilo.

They must be using black helicoptors to keep that conspiracy properly coordinated.

Hillary Clinton needs to look into this.

bulletproof
03-30-2004, 01:05 PM
I don't believe Isiah was fired because of the Boston series. Other people do believe he was fired because of Boston. If they feel that way, then they should hold Carlisle to the same standard.

I haven't come across any of those people, so I didn't know where you were coming from. So yeah, it would be hypocritical of those people to hold Rick to a different standard.

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 01:06 PM
Tim Floyd is not getting the same treatment from Boston media Isiah got.

Sorry, I guess I must have been halluncinating on my commute home when AM 1510 interviewed Danny Ainge and owner Wyc Grosbeck and then spent an hour discussing whether of not it would be a good thing if the Celtics made the playoffs or not, and whether even if they did, any possible opponents were beatable.

My bad.

I was totally unaware of the vast media conspiracy against Isiah Thomas to deprive him of his coaching legacy, involving not just colunists Peter May, Bob Ryan, and "the sports guy" but also columnists Michael Holly, Jackie McMullin, Gerry Callahan, John Dennis, and Ryan Russilo.

They must be using black helicoptors to keep that conspiracy properly coordinated.

Hillary Clinton needs to look into this.

Tom, I'm going to ask you this nicely, then kindly ignore you for a while. While I'm doing so, you can go back to the Star forum and troll the Colts fans, as you've done for months now.

Tom, stop taking my words and twisting them into something radical and far fetched. I did not, at any time, say there was a "conspiracy" against Isiah Thoams by the Boston media. However, I think we can both agree that the Boston media is more antagonistic towards Isiah than any other coach. I listen to Boston media, I read it. The simply don't like the guy, and to compare Isiah's Pacers with Floyd's Hornets is absurd. Floyd's Hornets are hovering .500 in one of the worst Eastern Conferences in recent memory. His players hate him and don't listen to him. By contrast, despite a tailspin after the All-Star break last year, Isiah's Pacers rallied to win 7 of their last 11 and win 48 games (6 more than the previous season). They had numerous off-the-court personal issues going on, yet they never blamed Isiah, never stopped listening to him, never gave up. When you consider how young the team was, and how esy it is for young players to tune out coaches, it says something that Isiah was able to keep things THAT together. Floyd's Hornets have not had to go through what Indy went through. He's lost a veteran team. They don't listen to him, and they're losing.

Completely different situations. Are the Hornet's vulnerable? Yes. Were the Pacers vulnerable last year? Yes. However, the reasonings are different, and that's important.

Again, we'll agree to disagree on this, but please try and see my side.

Oh, and the Red Sox stink. :p ;)

NewYawk
03-30-2004, 01:09 PM
I don't believe Isiah was fired because of the Boston series. Other people do believe he was fired because of Boston. If they feel that way, then they should hold Carlisle to the same standard.

I haven't come across any of those people, so I didn't know where you were coming from. So yeah, it would be hypocritical of those people to hold Rick to a different standard.

Go back and read someone like MSA2CF's comments.

ChicagoJ
03-30-2004, 01:15 PM
Then that's hyprocricy. Thomas was fired because, according to many, of the Boston series (a 3 seed losing to a 6 seed). If Indy were to lose to, say, Miami (a 1 seed against a 8 seed), and Carlisle didn't get fired, how is that not hypocricy? If such a thing happened, the franchise would never live it down. The 8th seed this season could potentially have a losing record. If Indy lost to such a team, the coach should be fired. The fans should demand it.


Isiah was fired for many reasons, the least of which was the Boston series. If that were the case, Donnie would have shitcanned him right after the playoffs.

Isiah was fired because Carlisle was available. That's it. No other reason. Bird was not going to fire Isiah and hire, say, Lenny Wilkins or Mike Fratello. Bird wanted to work with Rick, and thus fired Isiah.

Simle as that.


Um, then why do you use the Boston series as the basis for your "I want Bird's and Rick's heads on a stick if the Pacers suffer a first-round playoff exit" argument? If that's not why Isiah was fired...

I don't believe Isiah was fired because of the Boston series. Other people do believe he was fired because of Boston. If they feel that way, then they should hold Carlisle to the same standard.

For the record, I believe he was fired because he was a lousy coach who didn't have the respect of his players, even if he had thier admiration and good personal relationships with them. The Boston series just illustrated all of his shortcomings in a consise, ten-day failure, so I frequently cite it as fiasco.

But I don't believe he was fired for the Boston series alone and I don't buy into the argument that Rick must produce in this year's playoffs "or else." Hey, this team has the proverbial monkey on thier back after last year's failure. Rick not only has to guide them to beat, potentially, an up-and-coming Cleveland team, but he has to guide them to beat thier demons of three consecutive first-round failures. That's a tall order. It may take a year or two to fully work through that version of a "pink elephant."