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Frank Slade
10-23-2005, 02:49 AM
No breaking news here.. Had a Rock Solid year last year.
Looks to have another good year.

Even with Atlanta's depth in players of very similar build he is putting up nice numbers
hitting the 3 ball as well tonight.....

Friday's Game stats are

A. Harrington
11-16 FG 3-3 3pt 8-10Ft 6 rebs 1 ast

3 TO 1 stl 5 PF 33 pts

sweabs
10-23-2005, 02:52 AM
Meh...it's preseason. And it looks like he was against the stifling defense of Hedo Turkoglu.

...And it's preseason...and just one game. Tony Delk has dropped 53pts.

Frank Slade
10-23-2005, 03:02 AM
Yep it's preseason alright... although dont confuse NBA preseason as meaning less as it is to NFL preseason..

I was mostly stating a forward looking statement about what you can expect
this upcoming year, it was not as if I was touting a rookie that has not played an actual game.

Plus I did not even want to mention he is 4th overall in preseason scoring average at just under 22 pts a game

The the three that are above him in meaningless preseason action
AI, Lebron and Kobe... but wait a minute it's just preseason... never mind those bums.....;)

sweabs
10-23-2005, 03:06 AM
And don't forget Joe Johnson didn't play either.

I'm just saying...you need to take the stats with a grain of salt. Al can have those types of games...he had a couple 40pt performances with us during regular season.

Eindar
10-23-2005, 03:18 AM
Yep it's preseason alright... although dont confuse NBA preseason as meaning less as it is to NFL preseason..

I was mostly stating a forward looking statement about what you can expect
this upcoming year, it was not as if I was touting a rookie that has not played an actual game.

Plus I did not even want to mention he is 4th overall in preseason scoring average at just under 22 pts a game

The the three that are above him in meaningless preseason action
AI, Lebron and Kobe... but wait a minute it's just preseason... never mind those bums.....;)

Nobody denies that Al Harrington can catch fire and score in bunches. What made people mad is that when he was ice cold and triple teamed, he still shot the ball. The man is a black hole, and can only focus on offense or defense. And when he's focusing on offense and not hitting, it's almost like he's playing for the other team. I hate to put him in this category, but the last year we had him, he was like Antoine Walker, but without Walkers' passing ability.

PacerMan
10-23-2005, 12:05 PM
Nobody denies that Al Harrington can catch fire and score in bunches. What made people mad is that when he was ice cold and triple teamed, he still shot the ball. The man is a black hole, and can only focus on offense or defense. And when he's focusing on offense and not hitting, it's almost like he's playing for the other team. I hate to put him in this category, but the last year we had him, he was like Antoine Walker, but without Walkers' passing ability.


That's BS. He was the best interior defender we had.

Anthem
10-23-2005, 12:06 PM
That's BS. He was the best interior defender we had.

Before his injury, yes. After his injury, no.

The problem was, he didn't lose the skills, he lost the desire. He had a 40-point game and from then on thought of himself as a scorer.

Arcadian
10-23-2005, 03:27 PM
Al was a lot more physical presence than we have now. Even if last year wasn't screwy we would have missed him in our 4 rotation.

317Kim
10-23-2005, 04:07 PM
sorry this is really random but I've noticed that even though it's only preseason, the Central division really is a powerhouse! Everyone in it has a "rank" We're 1st as of now. (:woot:)
CENTRAL W L
Indiana 1- 4 1
Detroit 4- 4 2
Cleveland 5- 4 2
Chicago 6- 3 3
Milwaukee 7 - 3 3

Pacers#1Fan
10-23-2005, 04:16 PM
I am happy to see Al is doing well. I think it's funny that he left here, eventhough we were winning, to start on a losing team.

Tim
10-23-2005, 06:11 PM
Before his injury, yes. After his injury, no.

The problem was, he didn't lose the skills, he lost the desire. He had a 40-point game and from then on thought of himself as a scorer.

I can't agree with this, and as you know I am Al biased.

For some reason Al's percieved negatives are magnified.

After his injury Al still defended, he didn't have the foot speed or mobility he used to, but he had the strength and Rick used it, on both ends of the court.

Many times Rick would have Al guarding a big man that was skilled and taller and very strong and Al did a good job of it.

A common criticism of Al is, black hole.

To those critics, I ask the same question now as I asked back then. If you think his play is such a problem then why doesn't Rick do something about it?.

Not only did Rick not do anything about it, Rick played him a lot, and the team set records his last year here. It was working, it wasn't perfect but it worked.

I would like to make the same comment about JO to his critics. If you don't like what you see out of JO then why not hold Rick accountable for it?
JO keeps doing the things you hate because he has Ricks okay, its in Rick's plan or he would be sitting JO.

People had no problem slamming Isiah, why not the same for Rick?

Bball
10-23-2005, 07:21 PM
A common criticism of Al is, black hole.

To those critics, I ask the same question now as I asked back then. If you think his play is such a problem then why doesn't Rick do something about it?.


I would think trading him away would be 'doing something'. I'd guess Rick signed off on the idea if not lobibied for it.


Not only did Rick not do anything about it, Rick played him a lot, and the team set records his last year here. It was working, it wasn't perfect but it worked.

I was thinking Al did get his minutes cut somewhat but I may be recalling incorrectly.




I would like to make the same comment about JO to his critics. If you don't like what you see out of JO then why not hold Rick accountable for it?
JO keeps doing the things you hate because he has Ricks okay, its in Rick's plan or he would be sitting JO.

Can you bench your 'annointed' superstar and leader? Is that allowed?




People had no problem slamming Isiah, why not the same for Rick?

Rick's still winning...
If the losses ever pile on like they did for Isiah I think there very well could be a growing chorus questions.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
10-23-2005, 07:34 PM
The main thing I didn't like about Al is that he seemed to disappear in the playoffs.

PacerMan
10-23-2005, 07:56 PM
Before his injury, yes. After his injury, no.

The problem was, he didn't lose the skills, he lost the desire. He had a 40-point game and from then on thought of himself as a scorer.

BS again. He lost the quickness to guard the quick wing players he used to be able to guard (at 6'9 250 he was a freak), but he was ferocious in the paint. There were games where I just watched him instead of the ball on defense and his footwork and effort were outstanding. Front/side/back he was always moving when his man was an option. As someone else pointed out we frequently had him guarding the other teams 5, and he was strong enough to not get killed at it.
As for the scoring, that was his ROLE on the 2nd squad. Go look at the players we had with him. We were DESPARATE for scorers at that time. His role was to come in for Jermaine and take Jermaine's role as the main option and our only low post threat.
I still wish we'd kept him and traded Artest. And no I'm not saying he's better than Artest. He was a beloved player in the Pacers lockerroom.

PacerMan
10-23-2005, 07:59 PM
The main thing I didn't like about Al is that he seemed to disappear in the playoffs.

the ONLY thing I didn't like about Al is that he wimped out against Detroit big time. ***** footed and double pumped weak a** ***** instead of throwing that big body right in Bens ugly face.

Peck
10-23-2005, 08:50 PM
I just never could understand the vile things that were said about Al all the while the same people were praising Saint Artest.

I'd go to war with Al Harrington everyday of the week compared to Ron, sorry that's just how I feel.

For God's sake, this was baby Al. Every Pacers fan loved him for the first few years he was here.

I'm ok with the trade for Jackson because it was a trade for need, but trust me I would have much rather the trade been Artest for Jackson. God if we could only go back & do that one over....

Before you rebut that go back to last season & remember Mr. Wonderfulls stats for the last 73 games of the season, that's right they were zero.

As to the black hole thing? Sorry, don't buy it. He was told by both coach's that he was the primary scorer off of the bench. They told him to shoot. Did he shoot to often? Yes. But do I think he was any more of a hole than J.O.? Or Artest? Nope, not even close IMO.

Look I never went off on that trade because it made some sense to me, but I just never will understand why Indiana fans, well at least the ones online, turned against him.

Fool
10-23-2005, 09:18 PM
I don't think I know a Piston fan who wasn't happy at the trade of Al for Jax. Granted we don't have your team's best interest in mind and we don't have to worry about how you guys play the rest of the league but Harrington always seemed like a danger lurking (to me and others), something I would never consider Jax to be.

Eindar
10-23-2005, 10:12 PM
To those comparing Al shooting to JO shooting. JO makes a fair % of his shots, and he's consistent. Al would hit 3 in a row, then miss 8 straight. Also, PacerMan, I don't know what negaverse you were living in, but on this planet, I can't remember Al EVER guarding a 5. For that to happen, Foster, O'Neal, B. Miller/Pollard, and most likely Croshere would have to be out of the game, all of which are better interior defenders. Did Al guard some 4s? Of course, and he did a fine job against them, considering they were second stringers and he was undersized. But you talk about Al like he was shutting down Shaq on a regular basis, and I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. I'd love to see Al go at it against some of the elite PFs of the league, and he probably did last year. That's also probably part of the reason for Atlanta's record. After the injury, he no longer had the lateral quickness to guard small forwards, and lacked the size and power to hang with any good PF.

Here's some statistical proof that JO is a better shooter/less of a black hole than Al. Despite that Al was a backup, he averaged 11 shots per game those last 2 seasons, and only shot at a 44% clip. On top of that, he averaged one 3 pointer per game, every game lighting up the scoreboards at a 27% rate. That's pretty bad, especially when you consider that he was playing against 2nd string players.

JO on the other hand averages about the same percentage over that same time period, but he's also going against elite big men every night and the focus of the entire defense.

So, proven that Al wasn't a good offensive player who took too many shots, and proven that he struggled guarding starters at both 3 and 4 the last 2 seasons he played for us, how exactly was he a great player? Can we all just admit that Al Harrington used to be a very tenacious defender who lost his natural ability to guard guys smaller than him, and as a result, attempted to focus more on his offense than his defense, with very mixed results? How hard is this to accept?

The year we traded Al, I considered Artest to be only slightly better, and only then because of his amazing defense. However, since then Artest has become a much better offensive player and remains a much better defender, and he can do both in the same game. Sure, Artest is a knucklehead, but the jury is still out on whether he's a lost cause. So, today, I wouldn't put them anywhere close to being in the same league, which is also why Larry Bird would spit on their GM if he was offered to swap them.

Anthem
10-23-2005, 10:31 PM
I don't think I know a Piston fan who wasn't happy at the trade of Al for Jax. Granted we don't have your team's best interest in mind and we don't have to worry about how you guys play the rest of the league but Harrington always seemed like a danger lurking (to me and others), something I would never consider Jax to be.

In the one game we played with a full team, Jax hurt you way worse than Al ever did.

GO!!!!!
10-23-2005, 10:42 PM
I remember Al hitting a couple Game Winners ( and i suppose Missing a couple too )

He seemed to be good at Clutch out near the 3 line...

whats our Ratio with game winners V game miss's

I Miss the big fella.... I'd welcome him home with open arms...

I reckon this'll be a breakout year for him, last year was a learning experince and now he has more help and he's a lil older... he's still only 25....

Does anyone know if he contacted any of the P's after the infamous incident....

Hicks
10-23-2005, 10:48 PM
I don't remember Al ever hitting a game winner.

Arcadian
10-23-2005, 10:49 PM
Eindar, I did't know that 44% from the field was considered bad but in his last season here he shot 463%. Al played 30 some minutes a night are you telling me other teams put their second second strings in that long?

PacerMan
10-23-2005, 10:50 PM
To those comparing Al shooting to JO shooting. JO makes a fair % of his shots, and he's consistent. Al would hit 3 in a row, then miss 8 straight. Also, PacerMan, I don't know what negaverse you were living in, but on this planet, I can't remember Al EVER guarding a 5. For that to happen, Foster, O'Neal, B. Miller/Pollard, and most likely Croshere would have to be out of the game, all of which are better interior defenders. Did Al guard some 4s? Of course, and he did a fine job against them, considering they were second stringers and he was undersized. But you talk about Al like he was shutting down Shaq on a regular basis, and I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. I'd love to see Al go at it against some of the elite PFs of the league, and he probably did last year. That's also probably part of the reason for Atlanta's record. After the injury, he no longer had the lateral quickness to guard small forwards, and lacked the size and power to hang with any good PF.

Here's some statistical proof that JO is a better shooter/less of a black hole than Al. Despite that Al was a backup, he averaged 11 shots per game those last 2 seasons, and only shot at a 44% clip. On top of that, he averaged one 3 pointer per game, every game lighting up the scoreboards at a 27% rate. That's pretty bad, especially when you consider that he was playing against 2nd string players.

JO on the other hand averages about the same percentage over that same time period, but he's also going against elite big men every night and the focus of the entire defense.

So, proven that Al wasn't a good offensive player who took too many shots, and proven that he struggled guarding starters at both 3 and 4 the last 2 seasons he played for us, how exactly was he a great player? Can we all just admit that Al Harrington used to be a very tenacious defender who lost his natural ability to guard guys smaller than him, and as a result, attempted to focus more on his offense than his defense, with very mixed results? How hard is this to accept?

The year we traded Al, I considered Artest to be only slightly better, and only then because of his amazing defense. However, since then Artest has become a much better offensive player and remains a much better defender, and he can do both in the same game. Sure, Artest is a knucklehead, but the jury is still out on whether he's a lost cause. So, today, I wouldn't put them anywhere close to being in the same league, which is also why Larry Bird would spit on their GM if he was offered to swap them.

Shut down Shaq? Are you stoned or just goofy? Show me where I said that?
And if you don't remember him guarding 5's, you should view some tapes. Or quit smoking that stuff.

Tim
10-23-2005, 11:17 PM
Rick has direct control over minutes, and for a bench guy Al played a ton of minutes, that isn't an indicator that Rick was displeased with Al



I was thinking Al did get his minutes cut somewhat but I may be recalling incorrectly.

Maybe for some matchups in a few games, or because Al played injured everygame his last season here, but that was it.



Can you bench your 'annointed' superstar and leader? Is that allowed?

If he repeatedly doesn't not follow your game plan, and goes off on his own does things people citicize him for then yes.



Rick's still winning...
If the losses ever pile on like they did for Isiah I think there very well could be a growing chorus questions.

Winning or not, when people see Al or JO repeatedly do things they think is wrong, shouldn't people start complaining about the coaching? The players may actually be doing what the coach wants, and I think they are. Rick made Tinsley sit for a while, and at times he yanked SJax when his emotions were running a little high, why not JO or Al? The two guys people complain about being a black hole.

The truth is, Al was the best 6th man in the East, and 2nd in voting in the league. The funny thing is if you check Al's stats against Jamison's they are pretty much the same expect one area, scoring. The very thing Al's gets ripped for Jamison did a little better in and it got him an award.

Unclebuck
10-23-2005, 11:30 PM
Al was what he was. He was the 3rd best player on a 61 win team. The only problem was the two best players on that team played Al's positions. And for whatever reason a frontline of Ron, Al and J.O. - I thought was not very effective, or at least not as effective as Jeff, Ron, and J.O.

Tim
10-23-2005, 11:41 PM
To those comparing Al shooting to JO shooting. JO makes a fair % of his shots, and he's consistent. Al would hit 3 in a row, then miss 8 straight. Also, PacerMan, I don't know what negaverse you were living in, but on this planet, I can't remember Al EVER guarding a 5. For that to happen, Foster, O'Neal, B. Miller/Pollard, and most likely Croshere would have to be out of the game, all of which are better interior defenders. Did Al guard some 4s? Of course, and he did a fine job against them, considering they were second stringers and he was undersized. But you talk about Al like he was shutting down Shaq on a regular basis, and I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. I'd love to see Al go at it against some of the elite PFs of the league, and he probably did last year. That's also probably part of the reason for Atlanta's record. After the injury, he no longer had the lateral quickness to guard small forwards, and lacked the size and power to hang with any good PF.

Here's some statistical proof that JO is a better shooter/less of a black hole than Al. Despite that Al was a backup, he averaged 11 shots per game those last 2 seasons, and only shot at a 44% clip. On top of that, he averaged one 3 pointer per game, every game lighting up the scoreboards at a 27% rate. That's pretty bad, especially when you consider that he was playing against 2nd string players.

JO on the other hand averages about the same percentage over that same time period, but he's also going against elite big men every night and the focus of the entire defense.

So, proven that Al wasn't a good offensive player who took too many shots, and proven that he struggled guarding starters at both 3 and 4 the last 2 seasons he played for us, how exactly was he a great player? Can we all just admit that Al Harrington used to be a very tenacious defender who lost his natural ability to guard guys smaller than him, and as a result, attempted to focus more on his offense than his defense, with very mixed results? How hard is this to accept?

The year we traded Al, I considered Artest to be only slightly better, and only then because of his amazing defense. However, since then Artest has become a much better offensive player and remains a much better defender, and he can do both in the same game. Sure, Artest is a knucklehead, but the jury is still out on whether he's a lost cause. So, today, I wouldn't put them anywhere close to being in the same league, which is also why Larry Bird would spit on their GM if he was offered to swap them.


If Al was really that bad then why was he the best 6th man in the East? Why was he Jamison's main competition for 6th man?

More importantly, why is it when one of our starters, be it Reggie, Ron or JO, couldn't play we could plug in Al for the night and still have an excellent shot at winning the game? I don't think anyone can deny that we DO NOT have that ability anymore. When we lost Ron last year everybody just plain wrote off the season. The championship run was over 11/19 after we got Jax and JO back.

Hicks
10-23-2005, 11:50 PM
I'd like to think with Danny Granger we've gotten that luxury back, Tim.

Tim
10-23-2005, 11:55 PM
I'd like to think with Danny Granger we've gotten that luxury back, Tim.


Hopefully yes at some point I may need to put Do Not Trade before his name.

Bball
10-24-2005, 12:01 AM
Hopefully yes at some point I may need to put Do Not Trade before his name.

Let's see how well Freddie sticks with the team first...
You might be jinxing them! ;)

-Bball

Fool
10-24-2005, 01:23 AM
In the one game we played with a full team, Jax hurt you way worse than Al ever did.

And what an important game that was.

Eindar
10-24-2005, 04:11 AM
If Al was really that bad then why was he the best 6th man in the East? Why was he Jamison's main competition for 6th man?

More importantly, why is it when one of our starters, be it Reggie, Ron or JO, couldn't play we could plug in Al for the night and still have an excellent shot at winning the game? I don't think anyone can deny that we DO NOT have that ability anymore. When we lost Ron last year everybody just plain wrote off the season. The championship run was over 11/19 after we got Jax and JO back.

Ok, fine. Al Harrington is a very good backup. He's a borderline starter, and could start for many mediocre to above average teams. I still don't think that's a ringing endorsement, but my liver is another man's porterhouse. If you're trying to tell me that if we had Al last year instead of SJax we'd still be title contenders, you're delusional. Artest had nothing to do with Tinsley, Reggie, Foster, AJ, Harrison, Pollard, Croshere, Bender and JO getting injured. We'd have still lost JO for 15 games due to suspension, he would have still hurt himself in Denver, and we'd have still lost to Detroit, probably in 6, maybe in 7.

FreshPrince22
10-24-2005, 09:13 AM
When did he get all of this 3-point range? He's 9 for 13 in the preseason so far. He only made 16 all last season! My guess is he has a break-out year, and signs a big contract in the offseason. Then, goes back to being mediocre.

Eindar
10-24-2005, 09:28 AM
When did he get all of this 3-point range? He's 9 for 13 in the preseason so far. He only made 16 all last season! My guess is he has a break-out year, and signs a big contract in the offseason. Then, goes back to being mediocre.

I'd guess, since it's only 13 taken, it's another streaky week for Al. I'll be impressed if he's still at 35% or better at the all-star break, but unless he's done a LOT of work, he'll be closer to 25%. That still won't stop him from taking them, though! :)

Suaveness
10-24-2005, 09:37 AM
Let's see how well Freddie sticks with the team first...
You might be jinxing them! ;)

-Bball

Which is pretty much why I've lost hope of Freddy staying on this team. The moment he was put in Tim's sig, he was doomed. Sigh, and I liked him, too....

Fool
10-24-2005, 09:38 AM
Yes, Ben Wallace agreed with you.

He decided to insight a situation where he would never have to see a game like that again, and what a good job he did.

But thats all moot, isnt it....

Do you really want to take this there?

Fool
10-24-2005, 10:32 AM
Not really, Ive done it enough before.

I just find it funny how right after you make your sarcastic post about how meaningless pre-season is, you do that exact thing you were making fun of.

But hey, whatever floats your boat....

Hows that?

I didn't say that some other regular season game performance was important while discrediting the game Jax played well in. I don't think one regular season game means much at all no matter what game it is. If you want to put more weight on it, thats fine, I'll even join into a debate on this game's particular relevance over any other, if you wish (and I'll probably enjoy it). But in general, no. One performance in regular season play isn't much and even if it was it wouldn't change much of why I saw Al as a bigger threat then Jax.

Fool
10-24-2005, 10:43 AM
Thats cool, I just want to know if I understand things right.


I just find it funny how right after you make your sarcastic post about how meaningless pre-season is, you do that exact thing you were making fun of.

I took this statement to mean that you believe I was using a circumstance (say a regular season game) as a defense of a claim I made to promote Al while discrediting an equal but different circumstance (another regular season game) on grounds that were present in both cases (the fact that they were regular season games).

Did I understand correctly, what you were saying? Because I do not believe I've done that. While I have discredited the Jax single regular performance, I haven't claimed that I prefered Al based on any regular season performance(s).

Fool
10-24-2005, 10:52 AM
No problem at all man. I think that argument in favor of Jax has real merit especially when its recalled that outside shooting and slashing were/are thought (by some) to be the changes needed to get over/past Detroit.

Hicks
10-24-2005, 11:00 AM
Bah, call me a really mean name.

This is PD, we can not have two fans of two different teams being civilized!!!!!

Oh don't worry. Kstat and I aren't going anywhere. ;)

naptownmenace
10-25-2005, 02:44 PM
A lot of lopsided opinions of a former Pacers player... which is what I've come to expect from you guys.

The truth about Al lies somewhere inbetween, "He was a black hole" and "He was exactly what the Pacers needed off the bench".

My only 2 beefs with Al were he got his shotblocked more (per minutes played) than anyone I've ever seen - Brad Miller and JO included - and he ALWAYS disappeared during the playoffs.

The ultimate truth of the matter is that he was traded for Jack because he couldn't elevate his game during the postseason and perimeter scoring was a huge weakness for the Pacers during the 2004 playoffs.

Bball
10-25-2005, 03:10 PM
If only Al was as good as he thought he was everything would've taken care of itself. But since he wasn't, it just created issues. That's not to say he wasn't good BUT he needed to EMBRACE his role and run with it... not away from it.

-Bball

Arcadian
10-25-2005, 03:32 PM
We traded Al because he asked to be traded and we needed a SG.

If Al didn't want to be a career back up that is his choice as it is his career.