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View Full Version : What Are Weaknesses Of East Contenders? Question of the day



Frank Slade
10-17-2005, 11:18 AM
What Are Weaknesses Of East Contenders?


Monday, Oct. 17, 2005 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you'd like to pose a Question of the Day to Conrad Brunner, submit it along with your full name and hometown to Bruno's_mailbag@pacers.com. Brunner’s opinions are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of Pacers players, coaches or management.
QUESTION
OF THE DAY
Conrad Brunner


Q. A lot of experts say the Eastern Conference championship will be a toss-up among Miami, Detroit, and Indiana. But it does appear that this is our year. Miami, despite having Dwayne Wade and Shaq (who are injury prone), has a short bench while Detroit has a new coach. If each team (Miami, Detroit, and Indiana) was not to make it to the NBA Finals, what do you think would be the reasons? (From Noel in Manila, Philippines)



A. What an interesting question. Rather than measuring each team by its strengths, it might just be more relevant to study the potential weaknesses. Let's start with the Pacers. This is a team that appears to have all the physical elements as well as quality depth, experience and motivation. The primary stumbling block could be team chemistry. There aren't enough minutes to keep everyone happy and it remains to be seen if the players who wind up playing less than they want, or even deserve, will make the sacrifice quietly.

Injuries apply as a mitigating factor to all teams but moreso to Miami. Even with all of the postseason moves aimed at increasing depth, this is still a two-man team. And if either Shaq or Wade is lost for a substantial amount of time, it would cripple the Heat. Even if healthy, Miami also has some potential chemistry issues. Antoine Walker and Jason Williams must prove, over the course of the long season, that they're not only willing to play without the ball, but capable of being effective in that role.


Detroit is a very, very solid team but it remains to be seen what effect the departure of Larry Brown will have. The fact he has been replaced by a quality coach in Flip Saunders should mitigate any potential dropoff, and there is no real post-Brown trend. Of the last three teams he left, the 76ers and Clippers both went into the tank, but the Pacers immediately thrived under Larry Bird. Maybe more of the focus should be on the lack of backcourt depth. If anything happens to either Chauncey Billups or Richard Hamilton, the team will be in trouble.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_051017.html

Bball
10-17-2005, 11:50 AM
Conrad should've called the Pacers center position into question as a weakness (or at least question mark). IMHO that is the Achilles heel that Carlisle will be forced to try and minimize and deal with all season (especially when playing against playoff teams and especially the upper echelon contenders).

I still don't consider Foster a starting center for a contending team. Add to that an injury situation that didn't get put away last season and a new worry. Harrison now has two question marks: Experience/reaching potential and injury situation. Pollard seems to be a fall or wrong move away from a back injury.

A training camp player may end up our starting center for the opener.

Or else Carlisle rethinks our rotations and JO plays center...

-Bball

Kstat
10-17-2005, 12:40 PM
I'd say Indiana and Detroit have the same weakness. Their benches are very inexperienced.

Detroit's starters can go through droughts (though Rasheed becoming a true go-to guy could eliminate that), and Indiana's starters have a lot of trouble rebounding and defending the paint (though harrison could help that too), but I'd say the biggest question mark for both teams is their benches. Indiana's bench will heavily depend on two rookies, and Detroit's bench will only feature one player that was a rotation mainstay last year.

I disagree about the talent of the backcourt depth. Arroyo and Delfino are MORE than talented enough bo be solid backups off the bench. They're just very young. Arroyo has a little NBA experience, so I don't worry about him. Delfino has MORE talent than Arroyo, but he's basically a rookie this year. Last year was a total disaster for him physically and mentally.

Assuming Delfino can stay in one piece this year, I'd be perfectly fine having him as a backup plan at SG. Behind him, Mo Evans can also play the 2 in a pinch.

SlamSally
10-17-2005, 12:48 PM
I'd say Indiana and Detroit have the same weakness. Their benches are very inexperienced.

Detroit's starters can go through droughts (though Rasheed becoming a true go-to guy could eliminate that), and Indiana's starters have a lot of trouble rebounding and defending the paint (though harrison could help that too), but I'd say the biggest question mark for both teams is their benches. Indiana's bench will heavily depend on two rookies, and Detroit's bench will only feature one player that was a rotation mainstay last year.

I disagree about the talent of the backcourt depth. Arroyo and Delfino are MORE than talented enough bo be solid backups off the bench. They're just very young. Arroyo has a little NBA experience, so I don't worry about him. Delfino has MORE talent than Arroyo, but he's basically a rookie this year. Last year was a total disaster for him physically and mentally.

Assuming Delfino can stay in one piece this year, I'd be perfectly fine having him as a backup plan at SG.

:laugh: Thanks for the laugh, I really needed that. The stress of school was getting to me.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 12:49 PM
:laugh: Thanks for the laugh, I really needed that. The stress of school was getting to me.

You disagree that Indiana's bench lacks experience?

Or do you think Pollard and Croshere's combined 80 years of NBA play are really going to matter when they aren't on the floor?

SlamSally
10-17-2005, 12:56 PM
You disagree that Indiana's bench lacks experience?

Or do you think Pollard and Croshere's combined 80 years of NBA play are really going to matter when they aren't on the floor?

I think that after last year when our starting line-up had played a total of ZERO times together that our bench was playing. I would agree that Detroit's bench lacks experience because Larry Brown was set on his 8 player line-up. I mean there were times when your starters were playing 40+ minutes. But, I also think that it is extremely inaccurate to say that your bench has the same amount of experience as Indiana's. Thats just a false statment.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:02 PM
I think that after last year when our starting line-up had played a total of ZERO times together that our bench was playing.

You're right, I forgot all the times last year when Tinsley and Reggie were out, and Carlisle had Saras and Granger starting in their place . I stand corrected.


But, I also think that it is extremely inaccurate to say that your bench has the same amount of experience as Indiana's. Thats just a false statment.

If you want to look at both benches as a whole, they're nearly identical experience-wise. At the top is a lot of players with little experience, and at the bottom are guys that have a TON of experience, but won't play.

The only real exceptions are foster and McDyess, but if Foster starts, Detroit probably has a MORE experienced bench, now that I think about it....

Still curious as to what you were laughing at....

Hicks
10-17-2005, 01:06 PM
AJ, Fred, Cro (and he will play), and Pollard all are experienced. Saras is experienced as a pro, Granger isn't. Given reports of his high basketball IQ, I doubt that will matter more than a little.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:10 PM
AJ, Fred, Cro (and he will play), and Pollard all are experienced. Saras is experienced as a pro, Granger isn't. Given reports of his high basketball IQ, I doubt that will matter more than a little.

Hicks, the only guys on your bench that will get any meaningful time are Saras, Granger, Foster and Freddie.

Also, to say that Granger and Saras will be immune to rookie mistakes is incredibly naive. Both of them are going to need to adjust to the NBA game. Saras may have a little more difficulty adjusting than Granger, because he's spent a lot more time playing ina different kind of league.

If Croshere, Pollard or AJ play, it means either someone good got hurt, or it's garbage time. Either that or the guys in front of them are sucking, which is probably the wrost-case scenario.

I'd love to say Lindsey Hunter and Dale Davis make us a very experienced bench, but I'm realistic.

Hicks
10-17-2005, 01:13 PM
Unless you expect JO to play 48 minutes at PF, Cro will play. AJ will play when we need a stop.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:17 PM
Unless you expect JO to play 48 minutes at PF, Cro will play. AJ will play when we need a stop.

....and Lindsey will play when we really need a stop. But how often do you honestly think that will happen? Carlisle isnt going to break the flow of the game and go to his #3 guy unless his PGs are REALLY getting killed, which won't happen every game.

There's going to be a set rotation. I think you're confusing Carilse with Isiah. Carlisle isnt going to play 11 guys randomly whenever the mood suits him.

As for Croshere, maybe Carilse might fit him in as the 4th big man, but I get the feeling he'd rather use those minutes on Bender.

Saras, Granger, Jones and Foster should be your first 4 guys off the bench. Bender and Cro are probably battling over the #10 spot right now.

Of course, thats assuming Carlisle has decided that he's going to play 10 guys. But if the Pistons are going to do it, I can't see Carilse not doing it with just as much depth.

Hicks
10-17-2005, 01:22 PM
Bender won't play. Foster will probably start.

Regardless of all this, I'm not worried about inexperience hurting #s 3, 33, 20, or 44 off the bench. Not after the all-star break.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:25 PM
Bender won't play. Foster will probably start.

Regardless of all this, I'm not worried about inexperience hurting #s 3, 33, 20, or 44 off the bench. Not after the all-star break.

I'm not terribly worried about my bench either, but then again very little about my team worries me.

I'm saying, looking at both rosters from the outside, one would probably say the one thing that both teams lack is NBA experience among the guys that they're going to rely on most for bench production.

Los Angeles
10-17-2005, 01:28 PM
Kstat, I'll start by stating that you're leaving only one center in our "bench" focus - Foster. Fact is, we'll be leaning heavily on all of our centers, one by one, depending on who can play.

Of the four you have listed, Saras, Granger, Foster and Freddie, Granger is the least experienced. But all reports right now suggest that he is very mature, stable, and ready to go. Saras is 28? and an international champion. The other two were FORCED to play big time minutes and out performed expectations last year. The same goes for pretty much everyone on our team, except Bender, of course.

Of everyone on our team, the least experienced players are Harrison, Granger and Saras. I'd take that "weakness" every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The basis of your argument - that the Pacers primary weakness is that the bench is inexperienced - does not hold water. The biggest weakness for the Pacers is games missed due to injury and/or suspension. Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.

CableKC
10-17-2005, 01:29 PM
You disagree that Indiana's bench lacks experience?

Or do you think Pollard and Croshere's combined 80 years of NBA play are really going to matter when they aren't on the floor?

Kstat....who are the players that come off the bench in Detroit? (Sorry, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here...I seriously don't know who comes off after McDyess and Hunter...cuz they are the only players I saw in the playoffs that played decent minutes behind the starting 5 ). I'm guessing Delfino, Darko and the guy from Sactown they just signed will get some minutes there?

On the Pacers end....we know that the primary backup players will be Granger, Sarunas, Bender, Croshere, Harrison, Freddie and Pollard. The only 3 question marks that we have here is Granger, Sarunas...as they don't have any real NBA experience ( which is different then any talent or skill that they possess )....and Bender ( who we don't even have to expand on his NBA experirence ).

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:35 PM
Eh, I saw Sabonis, Kucoc and Rebraca- All european champions- enter the NBA and have problems adjusting. And two of them were OLDER than Saras is now.

I could be wrong, but Saras would be the first player EVER to go straight from eurpoe to the NBA and not have difficulties adjusting. Off of what I know if him, I think his biggest obstacle will be getting used to the speed.

Granger's a nice rookie. Experience-wise, he's about where Prince was coming out of UK, or Grant Hill out of Duke. But both of them had learning curves, albeit smaller ones than most rookies. Almost all rookies have them, and Granger will have his. Not a knock on Granger, it's just the way it goes.


The basis of your argument - that the Pacers primary weakness is that the bench is inexperienced - does not hold water. The biggest weakness for the Pacers is games missed due to injury and/or suspension. Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.

I'd agree with that, except that's more of an intangible. You can't really quantify injury-prone players. I'll wait until AFTER they get hurt to say that's their biggest issue.

travmil
10-17-2005, 01:37 PM
I'm not terribly worried about my bench either, but then again very little about my team worries me.

I'm saying, looking at both rosters from the outside, one would probably say the one thing that both teams lack is NBA experience among the guys that they're going to rely on most for bench production.

The Pacers bench is not only more experienced on the whole, it's deeper as well.

IF Saras and Granger prove that they can't get it done, we have guys that started for us for most of last year backing them up. Detroit can't say that if their two main bench guys go down. You're argument just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:37 PM
Kstat....who are the players that come off the bench in Detroit? (Sorry, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here...I seriously don't know who comes off after McDyess and Hunter...cuz they are the only players I saw in the playoffs that played decent minutes behind the starting 5 ). I'm guessing Delfino, Darko and the guy from Sactown they just signed will get some minutes there?

The Pistons bench rotation will probably go like this:

1. Dice
2. Arroyo
3. Darko
4. Delfino
5. Evans

Hunter and Dale will probably be our 11th and 12th men and will not play.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:40 PM
The Pacers bench is not only more experienced on the whole, it's deeper as well.

I'd love to contest both statements. I'm not sure your bench has more total NBA experience, OR more depth.

The only position where you have a solid 3rd backup is PG, and we have the same thing.


IF Saras and Granger prove that they can't get it done, we have guys that started for us for most of last year backing them up. Detroit can't say that if their two main bench guys go down. You're argument just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

If Saras and Granger prove they can't get it done, it's a big problem. Saras at least you have a decent backup for, though. But lets not go overboard and say that those guys are expendable.

travmil
10-17-2005, 01:42 PM
I'd love to contest both statements. I'm not sure your bench has more total NBA experience, OR more depth.

The only position where you have a solid 3rd backup is PG, and we have the same thing.



If Saras and Granger prove they can't get it done, it's a big problem. Saras at least you have a decent backup for, though. But lets not go overboard and say that those guys are expendable.

I didn't say they were expendable. I merely pointed out that if we have to, we can bring in guys that have started frequently in the past. Any other words you'd care to put in my mouth today?

Los Angeles
10-17-2005, 01:43 PM
I think all Pistons players should add an "o" at the end of their name.

Bball
10-17-2005, 01:44 PM
I didn't say they were expendable. I merely pointed out that if we have to, we can bring in guys that have started in the past. Any other words you'd care to put in my mouth today?

I have to disagree with you saying we have an All Star caliber bench.







:tongue:


;)



-Bball

travmil
10-17-2005, 01:46 PM
I think all Pistons players should add an "o" at the end of their name.

Ben-o?
Rasheed-o?


Darko.....-o?

Kaufman
10-17-2005, 01:47 PM
After seeing Saras old team beat Toronto, yes they may be bad but they were playing starters, mind you, I think the learning curve for Saras might be less than you all think...

BlueNGold
10-17-2005, 05:44 PM
I like our bench far more than Detroit's. Here is a line-up if our starters are out:
1) Saras
2) F. Jones
3) Granger
4) Bender (if he is injured, Croshere)
5) Harrison

No offense to the Pistons b/c their first 6 or 7 are great, but the Pacers have them in depth. ...and we don't even mention AJ, who is a darn good backup PG himself.

317Kim
10-17-2005, 05:54 PM
I like our bench far more than Detroit's. Here is a line-up if our starters are out:
1) Saras
2) F. Jones
3) Granger
4) Bender (if he is injured, Croshere)
5) Harrison

No offense to the Pistons b/c their first 6 or 7 are great, but the Pacers have them in depth. ...and we don't even mention AJ, who is a darn good backup PG himself.

:grinyes: I love our 2nd unit!!! It's just as good as some teams' starting lineup! :)

Kstat
10-17-2005, 05:54 PM
I'd rather have Hunter as my #3 PG than AJ, but I suppose maybe that's just taste.

As for our bench, I think both benches are pretty much even talent-wise.

Darko, Delfino and Arroyo all have a lot of talent. Nobody ever saw it because Larry Brown kept it chained to the bench, but it's there.

Maurice Evans is also a quality player. He started for the Kings last year because of their injury problems, and more than held his own.

Not to mention our 12th man is Dale Davis. That's pretty darn good also.

The Pistons are going to play a 10-man rotation, and the Pacers probably will also. That speaks to the depth of both teams.

BlueNGold
10-17-2005, 06:01 PM
I'd rather have Hunter as my #3 PG than AJ, but I suppose maybe that's just taste.

As for our bench, I think both benches are pretty much even talent-wise.

Darko, Delfino and Arroyo all have a lot of talent. Nobody ever saw it because Larry Brown kept it chained to the bench, but it's there.

Not to mention our 12th man is Dale Davis. That's pretty darn good also.
One thing I would add is that Jones, Croshere and Harrison have all put up big numbers offensively. Jones has gone for 30+, Croshere has had many games in the 20's and is always capable of that. Harrison as a rook put up good numbers and is a beast on the block. Saras just put up 18pts in just his second game....and I am certain Granger will have some spectacular performances this year. Pollard and AJ are no slouches either. ...and if Bender ever stays healthy, look out!

SoupIsGood
10-17-2005, 06:05 PM
I'd rather have Hunter as my #3 PG than AJ, but I suppose maybe that's just taste.




Goodnight credibility...... ;)

GO!!!!!
10-17-2005, 06:05 PM
Darko, Delfino and Arroyo all have a lot of talent. Nobody ever saw it because Larry Brown kept it chained to the bench, but it's there.

.

Isn’t that the total point of our bench has more experience then yours...

Jimmy Floyd Hasslebank could be an All Star if he got quality minutes...

Last year threw terrible and unforseen circumstances our bench did get quality experience.... I haven't the time to dig out minutes and stats but it spanks the pistons bench from here to Tokyo, what did we have 27 different starting line ups compared to the pistons 1??
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
And a better example then comparing Sabonis and Kukoc to Sara’s would be Pertrovic, everyone knows that the NBA Big men are BIG and naturally it’s harder for Sabonis to make a impact…
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>

can we get a stat check on Hunter V AJ please.....

sweabs
10-17-2005, 06:10 PM
can we get a stat check on Hunter V AJ please.....

Personally, I don't care what the stats are. I'd rather have Lindsey.

He's twice the defender that AJ is, and for a 3rd PG, you want someone who can totally change the tempo of the game...and Lindsey is a guy who can do that. He's one of the best defensive PG's in the entire league.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 06:10 PM
One thing I would add is that Jones, Croshere and Harrison have all put up big numbers offensively. Jones has gone for 30+, Croshere has had many games in the 20's and is always capable of that. Harrison as a rook put up good numbers and is a beast on the block. Saras just put up 18pts in just his second game....and I am certain Granger will have some spectacular performances this year. Pollard and AJ are no slouches either. ...and if Bender ever stays healthy, look out!

Croshere put up big numbers sometime back in 1984.

Harrison put up big number for half a season, but at least it was RECENTLY. Physically, he's got all the tools to be a solid center. It's the other side that concerns me.

Jones has played very well as a focal point in the starting lineup, but as a bench player he forces his shot WAY too much and is really yet to find a niche playing backup minutes.

I'm still on record as saying I'm not sure if Saras or Arroyo is a better player.

Pollard and AJ aren't slouches, but I'd still rather have Dale Davis and Lindsey Hunter at the end of my bench.

.....and if Isiah decides to come out of retirement, look out! :laugh:

Kstat
10-17-2005, 06:11 PM
Isn’t that the total point of our bench has more experience then yours...

Your 6th man is a rookie. Your 7th man is a rookie. Your "more experience" theory just died a horrible death.

SoupIsGood
10-17-2005, 06:14 PM
Well if they are rookies I'm not sure they can really be our 6th or 7th man yet. That's probably Fred Jones until the Danny or Saras prove otherwise, although if David starts of the bat Foster could be our 6th.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 06:18 PM
Detroit's bench: 44 years of NBA experience.

Indiana's bench: 26 years of NBA experience.

Just tallied em up, FYI.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 06:20 PM
Well if they are rookies I'm not sure they can really be our 6th or 7th man yet. That's probably Fred Jones until the Danny or Saras prove otherwise, although if David starts of the bat Foster could be our 6th.

Well if Saras and Granger are going to be so great, they can't be 8th and 9th on the team in minutes played, now can they?

Can't have it both ways, guys. Either your bench is talented, or experienced. You can't mask the inexperience and still unleash the talent.

NorCal_Pacerfan
10-17-2005, 06:20 PM
I'm still on record as saying I'm not sure if Saras or Arroyo is a better player.


Can Arroyo drain threes? I certainly don't think Arroyo can pass like Sarunas. His defense might be better though. Let's compare them at the half-way point of the season...

As for AJ, he can shoot when he's hot. Hunter to me just seems like a half-court pressure defender - but can he really shoot the ball well?

Kstat
10-17-2005, 06:24 PM
Can Arroyo drain threes?

Can Saras run an NBA offense?


I certainly don't think Arroyo can pass like Sarunas.

And oh, how I beg to differ there....

After our last series, you still dont think Arroyo has very good court vision? The guy has exceptional passing skills. Not to say Saras doesn't, but to say there's a clear gap is just untrue.


His defense might be better though.

I don't think either will make any all defensive teams anytime soon...


Let's compare them at the half-way point of the season...

Agreed. I've seen Arroyo dominate at the international level too, but the NBA is a different game. I want to see how Saras adjusts to the faster pace.

DisplacedKnick
10-17-2005, 06:37 PM
Does anyone else have the feeling that kstat's already locked things up to become a repeat award winner?

SoupIsGood
10-17-2005, 06:39 PM
Can't have it both ways, guys. Either your bench is talented, or experienced. You can't mask the inexperience and still unleash the talent.

These long arguments really get convolted, because this juat makes no sense to me. I look at our Bench -

Pollard
Cro
AJ
Foster?

They would be experienced

Danny
Saras
David?
Fred

That'd be talented.


But whatever.

travmil
10-17-2005, 07:06 PM
You guys just need to give up. Kstat thinks he's right even when he's wrong. Besides, when you back him into a corner on something, he'll just make up something that you said and ignore it when you call him on it. He's really not even worth the time and effort it takes to respond to him.

shags
10-17-2005, 07:13 PM
Here's how I would answer the question.

:thepacers

1. Ron Artest - I don't think the Pacers can win the East without a somewhat sane Artest. That, combined with his low trade value, is why Bird & Walsh didn't trade him this summer. However, look at Btown's sig. It seems like the only thing he's learned from the brawl is "Don't go into the stands if someone throws something at you." For the Pacers to win the East, Artest would have no major disruptions for 9 months and 105 to 110 games. He's never done it before, and he certainly doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

(NOTE: This worry should be lessened if Granger lives up to the hype. At least they've got a contingency plan).

2. The frontcourt - I think David Harrison might be the biggest X-factor for the Pacers this year. You've got a top 5 big man in Jermaine O'Neal, and you know what your getting from Foster, Croshere, and Pollard. But Harrison showed flashes of brillance last year, but he needs to be more consistent. If he's not, I don't think the Pacers big men match up with the Wallaces & McDyess and Shaq, Haslem, Walker, and Zo.

3. Injuries - The Pacers might lead the league in injury prone players, with O'Neal, Tinsley, Pollard, Foster, Fred Jones, Harrison, and first ballot hall of famer Jonathon Bender. If you're going to pick one team that will lose a key player to injury, you'd pick the Pacers.

:thepiston

1. Coaching - Everyone knows Flip Saunders is a downgrade from Larry Brown, but the question is how much. And it won't totally get answered until May.

2. Bench - There's a distinct possibility that the Pistons will enter the playoffs with Lindsay Hunter as the 7th man. Not good times. Bad times. (I don't think this will happen, but it could.) The bench is very inexperienced, especially in big games.

:heat:

1. Chemistry - How's Walker going to react coming off the bench all season? How will Jason Williams handle giving up 4th quarter minutes to Gary Payton? And when has Shaq ever taken a team of stars and selfish players and made them accept their role? Ever. Speaking of that . . .

2. Riley vs. Van Gundy - I think Riley's itching to coach this team, and is willing to throw Van Gundy, undeservingly, under the bus to do it.

BlueNGold
10-17-2005, 07:41 PM
Croshere put up big numbers sometime back in 1984.

Harrison put up big number for half a season, but at least it was RECENTLY. Physically, he's got all the tools to be a solid center. It's the other side that concerns me.

Jones has played very well as a focal point in the starting lineup, but as a bench player he forces his shot WAY too much and is really yet to find a niche playing backup minutes.

I'm still on record as saying I'm not sure if Saras or Arroyo is a better player.

Pollard and AJ aren't slouches, but I'd still rather have Dale Davis and Lindsey Hunter at the end of my bench.

.....and if Isiah decides to come out of retirement, look out! :laugh:

In all fairness to Jones, Croshere and Harrison, they were going up against starters all year last year and were forced to play through injuries while the rest of the team was suspended or injured themselves.

Croshere's production was great early in the year, then dropped off when JO returned from suspension and then when JO was injured, Croshere was not effective due to his own injury.

If it were not for Jones' hand injury he would have had a break-out season. It appeared he was a poor bench player because he injured his hand and never got his shot back about the time Jax returned from suspension.

Harrison was a rookie last year and his production did tail off. I think he hit the wall and was not conditioned well enough to recover. He should not have that problem this year. He has come into this season in much better condition.

By the way, why do you rank Carlos over Lindsay? I see it the other way. In fact, I would take Lindsay over AJ as well...purely for his defense.

Bball
10-17-2005, 07:48 PM
Pacers are good, I suppose. Pistons are better and better than ever at every position including coaching!

I think that's what Kstat is trying to say in his own way... :tongue:

-Bball

BlueNGold
10-17-2005, 08:02 PM
Detroit's bench: 44 years of NBA experience.

Indiana's bench: 26 years of NBA experience.

Just tallied em up, FYI.
I am ok with that. DD is probably half of that...and at 37, more experience is not a good thing. He will grow old, grey and stiff on the Piston's bench. :laugh:

Kstat
10-17-2005, 08:19 PM
By the way, why do you rank Carlos over Lindsay? I see it the other way. In fact, I would take Lindsay over AJ as well...purely for his defense.

Because in my point guard I'd rather have a guy in there that can break down defenses and rack up assists like candy. This team has defense coming out its ears. They need people that can create.

It's a moot point, because Arroyo pretty much has the backup PG spot locked up at this point.

Lindsey is a guy you love to have as your #3 because he brings something special to the table. However, he isn't good at running an offense, and like Dale, you make sure they're fresh come playoff time, when you'll NEED them.

I'm actually excited about having one of my all time favorites in Dale Davis come playoff time, but I don't want him to waste his energy until then. Darko's the perfect understudy.

GO!!!!!
10-17-2005, 10:56 PM
Your 6th man is a rookie. Your 7th man is a rookie. Your "more experience" theory just died a horrible death.

Man it's a moot talking to you.... total waste...

I never said that at all and I don't consider them my 6th and 7th man respectively

once again, Like always, you have taken something, twisted it and made it your own while still managing not to make any logical argument for your opinion.
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You are truly truly convinced of your supremacy that it makes all of us mere mortals not even care about your royal highness
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Kstat
10-17-2005, 11:32 PM
You are truly truly convinced of your supremacy that it makes all of us mere mortals not even care about your royal highness

Would you like a cross, some nails and a hammer while you're at it?

Since I'm the one apparently making up stuff, why don't you come down from your soap box and point out to me where I said the Pistons had a better bench than the Pacers.

I'm sure you'll just go on another rant, just like most everyone else that can't debate anything I say....

GO!!!!!
10-17-2005, 11:44 PM
See I never said nothing about better bench either...

I just said that Our Bench Last Year gained more experience then any of the Pistons Bench could dream about...

That’s all I said and only what I said.

You say that I said and I say what you said, and we neither said what we thought we said...

And I'm over it...

I STICK by what I said and not what you think I said

I said last year we had 27 Line-ups to the Pistons 1 and our bench gained more experience then the piston bench

End of Story, Agree or Disagree it has nothing to do with Granger or Sara's



We’ll settle it once and for all on LIVE… with Fatigue turned on…. Bytch….

travmil
10-18-2005, 01:10 AM
Since I'm the one apparently making up stuff, why don't you come down from your soap box and point out to me where I said the Pistons had a better bench than the Pacers.

Just looking through the posts, I don't see anywhere he claims you said that. So here you are again, putting words in someone else's mouth. Anyone else seeing a common denominator here?

SoupIsGood
10-18-2005, 01:14 AM
Hehe, every now and then the Kstat hate-machine gets geared up. I remember last time it was about him always pooping all over good Pacers news. lol

travmil
10-18-2005, 01:15 AM
If the Kstat hate machine gets going again, it's because he's driving it.

Kstat
10-18-2005, 03:02 AM
Well if I'd been run over 2 or 3 times like you were in this discussion, I would hope I'd eventually get a good look at the driver, too....

travmil
10-18-2005, 06:07 AM
Well if I'd been run over 2 or 3 times like you were in this discussion, I would hope I'd eventually get a good look at the driver, too....

Oh you mean the ONE time you responded to me in this thread, where you AGAIN said I said something I didn't? Is that what you mean by running over? Please....

RWB
10-18-2005, 08:51 AM
See I never said nothing about better bench either...

I just said that Our Bench Last Year gained more experience then any of the Pistons Bench could dream about...

That’s all I said and only what I said.

You say that I said and I say what you said, and we neither said what we thought we said...

And I'm over it...

I STICK by what I said and not what you think I said

I said last year we had 27 Line-ups to the Pistons 1 and our bench gained more experience then the piston bench

We’ll settle it once and for all on LIVE… with Fatigue turned on…. Bytch….

For all the really old timers isn't this the lyrics to a Neil Diamond song?

Fool
10-18-2005, 10:35 AM
All of a sudden the Pacers weakness is bench? News to me.

Unclebuck
10-18-2005, 10:42 AM
I think by any measure the Pacers 6th through 10th players are better than the Heat's or the Piston's. But I would rate the Heat and the Pistons starting 5 as better than the Pacers.

Frank Slade
10-18-2005, 10:46 AM
I think by any measure the Pacers 6th through 10th players are better than the Heat's or the Piston's. But I would rate the Heat and the Pistons starting 5 as better than the Pacers.

As the norm.. I agree with UB on both counts.. Pacers still have more questions that needs to be answered with the starting 5 than do the Heat and Pistons .. maybe that changes mid way through the season,, but for now.. that sounds about right to me.