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View Full Version : What is Tayshaun Prince worth to the Pistons?



skyfire
10-16-2005, 08:42 PM
What does everyone think is "fair" money for Tayshaun Prince?

Pistons have supposedly offered 50m/5years and Prince + agent is supposedly asking for 60m/5years.

Pistons are supposedly hesitant to match the request as it would impinge upon their ability to max out Ben Wallace next summer. Is Ben Wallace worth max money?

Looks like the Pistons starting 5 is becoming very expensive to keep intact...

hoopsworld link (http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_14594.shtml)


NO DEAL FOR TAYSHAUN: It was rumored that the Pistons would sign Tayshaun Prince to a 5 year $50 million contract extension this week. After meeting with the Pistons; Tayshaun’s agent Bill Duffy emerged without a deal. It seems the sticking point is not $50 million, its closer to $60 million over 5-years a number the Pistons are not comfortable with – in part because they know they will have to MAX out Ben Wallace next summer, and with Rasheed Wallace already taking up massive amounts of cap space – Tayshaun’s deal has be a little easier to swallow. Tayshaun hoped they could get some thing done in the next two weeks, before the window to extend his deal closes. If no deal is reached Tayshaun would be eligible to be a restricted free agent next summer.

Pacers#1Fan
10-16-2005, 08:48 PM
I can't wait to see how this plays out.

Unclebuck
10-16-2005, 08:50 PM
I hope the Pistons low-ball him and he gets pissed and moves on to the Clippers. But that won't happen, he's very, very valuable to the Pistons and I'm sure Joe knows that, so they'll pay him enough to keep him. Whether that is 55M or 60M, they'll get it done

Frank Slade
10-16-2005, 08:50 PM
Well Wallace is 31... Prince is only 25 If it were up to me
would make sure a talent like Prince stays .. it's hard to put a price tag when you see certain players get over paid these days. But I would say Prince is worth every penny that he is asking for....

Kegboy
10-16-2005, 08:54 PM
Funny, to the thread title I was thinking $50-60 million.

Ben is so not worth max money. Maybe 2-3 years ago, but not now. They should pay Prince what he's worth, and tell Ben to try and find a better offer next year. Then, if he walks, they've still got Darko. ;)

Frank Slade
10-16-2005, 08:57 PM
Think Fred Jones is going to get a 50 million dollar offer?

Not from Indiana he's not .....:confused:

Pacers#1Fan
10-16-2005, 09:01 PM
Think Fred Jones is going to get a 50 million dollar offer?I highly doubt it.

Anthem
10-16-2005, 09:01 PM
:confused:

Fred and Prince are "two players eternally linked..." we drafted Fred instead of Prince. Word on the street was that the organization liked Prince more, but felt they already had too many small forwards.

Frank Slade
10-16-2005, 09:04 PM
Fred and Prince are "two players eternally linked..." we drafted Fred instead of Prince. Word on the street was that the organization liked Prince more, but felt they already had too many small forwards.

Ahh yes ;) thanks for clearing up that inside reference

Frank Slade
10-16-2005, 09:05 PM
Whew. I was worried I was going to have to post the :overyourhead: smilie 20 times.


:peace:

Anthem
10-16-2005, 09:26 PM
In answer to the original question: ONE CHAMPIONSHIP.

The championship was won on the strength of Tay's block of Reggie's shot.

pacerwaala
10-16-2005, 09:26 PM
I wonder what Reggie's opinion on this would be.

TP is worth the $60 million but Ben is not worht the max. I don't think Joe would sign Ben to the max.

Los Angeles
10-16-2005, 09:33 PM
I'd give up artest + someone else for salary matching in a sign and trade for prince.

There.

I said it.

Lord Helmet
10-16-2005, 09:38 PM
I'd give up artest + someone else for salary matching in a sign and trade for prince.

There.

I said it.
I don't think I would go that far.












Hater.





















:devil: :laugh:

Frank Slade
10-16-2005, 09:39 PM
I'd give up artest + someone else for salary matching in a sign and trade for prince.

There.

I said it.

Thanks for extending this thread about 10 extra pages....;)

:duck:

Arcadian
10-16-2005, 09:44 PM
I'm not sure Ben at his current age is worth a 6 year max deal but I'm sure that will be his value considering what average centers are getting.

Prince is important to their team and I'm sure they will find some way to keep him.

pizza guy
10-16-2005, 09:44 PM
So, if they give Prince $60 mil, and can't afford Big Ben, and we still need a center.........?





















That's worth an extra page. ;)

GO!!!!!
10-16-2005, 09:55 PM
Whats there contract situation now

Billups what 6 mill
Hammy 8 mill ( goes to 11 over the next 4 years )
Prince 1.7 Mil
Wallace 10 Mil
Ben W 6.5


I'd give Prince a 5 year deal 44 Mill and Wallace a 3 year deal @ 24 Mill can call it a day

Thats My GM skills for ya...

Harmonica
10-16-2005, 10:02 PM
So, if they give Prince $60 mil, and can't afford Big Ben, and we still need a center.........?

I'd like to see that just for Kstat's reaction. Which, of course, would damn Ben with faint praise.

Naptown Seth
10-16-2005, 10:05 PM
Wow. $12M a year seems like a lot for an "above average" NBA player. I could understand if Prince was some kind of All-Star in the making like Joe Johnson, but he's not. He's not even close to that level.
I like it. Any time the rival has to overpay on one of it's players, it's a good thing.

FiestyFosterFanatic
10-16-2005, 10:08 PM
Out of their starting 5, I'd say Prince is the 5th most important player on the team.

1. Billups
2. Big Ben
3. Hamilton
4. Rasheed
5. Prince

BlueNGold
10-16-2005, 10:11 PM
Prince is worth an awful lot to the Pistons. Remember when they used him against Dwayne Wade? He also gives Ron Ron some trouble. I would sign him for what he wants. The man seems to have character and is a team player. At 25, he also has some upside. It would be tough to let Big Ben go, losing Prince would be worse.

shags
10-16-2005, 10:16 PM
Wow. $12M a year seems like a lot for an "above average" NBA player. I could understand if Prince was some kind of All-Star in the making like Joe Johnson, but he's not. He's not even close to that level.
I like it. Any time the rival has to overpay on one of it's players, it's a good thing.

Maybe if he had the proven NBA success of a Danny Granger, he'd be worth $12M per year. Oh well.

Pacers#1Fan
10-16-2005, 10:17 PM
I'd give up artest + someone else for salary matching in a sign and trade for prince.

There.

I said it.Um........ I don't think so.

Los Angeles
10-16-2005, 10:20 PM
Maybe if he had the proven NBA success of a Danny Granger, he'd be worth $12M per year. Oh well.
SWING and a miss.

You should have said Bender.

If you're going to do it, do it right.

Hicks
10-16-2005, 10:21 PM
Um........ I don't think so.

I did. Now that we have Granger, I'm fine. He really reminds me a lot of Prince.

Frank Slade
10-16-2005, 10:21 PM
SWING and a miss.

You should have said Bender.

If you're going to do it, do it right.

:nod: yep... good call..

BlueNGold
10-16-2005, 10:24 PM
Out of their starting 5, I'd say Prince is the 5th most important player on the team.

1. Billups
2. Big Ben
3. Hamilton
4. Rasheed
5. Prince

They are difficult to rank. If you consider the fact they have other bigs (McDyess, DD, etc.) on the bench, I see Big Ben as less important. They have no one on the bench who can replace Prince. That is why I think the Pistons would value Prince above Big Ben. However, the Pacers would value Big Ben above Prince...by far based on our personnel.

shags
10-16-2005, 10:25 PM
I did. Now that we have Granger, I'm fine. He really reminds me a lot of Prince.

If Granger is as good as Prince was his 2nd year in the league, he makes Artest that much more expendable. It's a bit unrealistic, IMHO, to expect Granger THIS YEAR to be as good as Prince is now. Maybe he'll end up a better player. Who knows?

And I wouldn't do that proposed trade, even taking away the history between those two franchises.

shags
10-16-2005, 10:29 PM
They are difficult to rank. If you consider the fact they have other bigs (McDyess, DD, etc.) on the bench, I see Big Ben as less important. They have no one on the bench who can replace Prince. That is why I think the Pistons would value Prince above Big Ben. However, the Pacers would value Big Ben above Prince...by far based on our personnel.

That's pretty much how you have to rank them, by who replaces them. The starters are so even and complement each other so well. Last year, I thought Rip was the most important, simply because he was better than Prince, and the Pistons had no one to replace him, as evidenced by the Pacers game at the Palace in late March.

Kstat
10-16-2005, 10:30 PM
Much talk abotu nothing.....

The pistons want prince, Prince wants to stay here, and even if prince doesnt get a deal hammered out by november, he's STILL restricted.

Prince will get what he's worth, he's a lock to stay here, end of story.

And hey, we have Delfino and Evans backing him up......*points at shags*

So, uh, how about that "bum" carlos delfino again? :laugh:

BTW, Rasheed becomes the most valuable Piston this year by a freakin country mile. If only ONE Piston makes the allstar team, it'll be Rasheed Wallace. I can't watch him play without being amazed at how much higher his level of play is than the last 2 years.

Naptown Seth
10-16-2005, 10:31 PM
Maybe if he had the proven NBA success of a Danny Granger, he'd be worth $12M per year. Oh well.
When did anyone mention Danny Granger being worth $12M per?
All I'm saying is, a guy who's peaked at 15/5/3 isn't worth $12M a year.
$7M-$8M, yes. $12M, no.

And is anyone else reliezing what a bargain Stephen Jackson has turned out to be? $5M a year for a 19/5/3 player is off the heezy fo' sheezy.

Kstat
10-16-2005, 10:34 PM
Seth, anyone ever tell you you are WAAAAAAAAY too hung up on stats?

DO you ever watch the games, or do you just study the box scores?

Considering that the fastest way to make your "overrated" list is to win NBA championships, I'm sure Prince would be glad to be on it :laugh:

Here's a hint: look up these words. "chemistry," and "intangibles." If you already know what they mean I apologize, but you do act as if you've never heard of them before.

Certain players find ways to affect a game that don't show up in the box score and player averages.

Artest should know very well the effect prince had on him in the 04 ECF. Prince's length bothered the living hell out of ron.

shags
10-16-2005, 10:40 PM
Seth, anyone ever tell you you are WAAAAAAAAY too hung up on stats?

DO you ever watch the games, or do you just study the box scores?

Considering that the fastest way to make your "overrated" list is to win NBA championships, I'm sure Prince would be glad to be on it :laugh:

Shoot, I'm just sad to find out that Prince has peaked at the ripe old age of 25.

Prince may as well retire. No one experiences any success in the NBA after 25. It just doesn't happen. And he's got a ring. There's just nothing left to play for. Joe will just have to find a SF who isn't ancient.

SoupIsGood
10-16-2005, 10:52 PM
I can't watch him play without being amazed at how much higher his level of play is than the last 2 years.

That will last maybe 5 games.

Kstat
10-16-2005, 10:55 PM
That will last maybe 5 games.

So far, so good. He's been the hardest working piston on the floor in each game thusfar.

Not trying to convince you, although Rasheed isn't going to suddenly get out of shape all of a sudden. Doesn't matter to me, because he's going to show it on the court.

I certainly am beyond impressed with the array of moves that he never showed me before. Not once in the 2 years in detroit did I ever see him play like this, demanding the ball on every play.

Rimfire was right on about Rasheed. When he's truly focused, he's really at another level.

FiestyFosterFanatic
10-16-2005, 11:00 PM
Seth, anyone ever tell you you are WAAAAAAAAY too hung up on stats?

DO you ever watch the games, or do you just study the box scores?

Considering that the fastest way to make your "overrated" list is to win NBA championships, I'm sure Prince would be glad to be on it :laugh:

Here's a hint: look up these words. "chemistry," and "intangibles." If you already know what they mean I apologize, but you do act as if you've never heard of them before.

Certain players find ways to affect a game that don't show up in the box score and player averages.

Artest should know very well the effect prince had on him in the 04 ECF. Prince's length bothered the living hell out of ron.


Chemistry? Intangibles? I smell Micheal Curry...

Naptown Seth
10-16-2005, 11:15 PM
Seth, anyone ever tell you you are WAAAAAAAAY too hung up on stats?

DO you ever watch the games, or do you just study the box scores?

Considering that the fastest way to make your "overrated" list is to win NBA championships, I'm sure Prince would be glad to be on it :laugh:
It all makes sense actually. The majority of players who win championships become vastly overrated in a hurry.
Why is this you may ask?
When a player wins a championship, it's never taken into account his role on said championship. All that's taken into account is the fact that his team won a championship, thus he's a "championship caliber" player.
Example: Tony Parker. Tony Parker is placed in everyone top-10 point guards list, usually between 6-8, despite the fact that he doesn't really have the talent/skillset of a top-10 point guard. He can't shoot, plays poor defense, is a mediocre passer, mediocre rebounder, and doesn't get his teammates involved like he should. Yet he must he's' got a championship, so he must be great! Nevermind the fact that any average to slightly above average point guard in the league would be successful in the Spurs system *cough* Averaye Johnson, Speedy Claxton*cough*, playing alongside Duncan, Manu, and great role players, and great coaching.
It's basically a case of people only looking on the surface, and not having the intelligence/desire/whatever to look deeper into things.


Here's a hint: look up these words. "chemistry," and "intangibles." If you already know what they mean I apologize, but you do act as if you've never heard of them before.

Certain players find ways to affect a game that don't show up in the box score and player averages.

Artest should know very well the effect prince had on him in the 04 ECF. Prince's length bothered the living hell out of ron.
Oh Jesus. Not the intangible crap talk. Every player has intangibles. That still doesn't make them worth $12M. Prince is a 15/5/3 player with above average defense. That makes him worth $7-8M player, and that's that. Anything more is overpaying, but I suppose you've gotta do what you've gotta do to keep your team intact.


Shoot, I'm just sad to find out that Prince has peaked at the ripe old age of 25.

Prince may as well retire. No one experiences any success in the NBA after 25. It just doesn't happen. And he's got a ring. There's just nothing left to play for. Joe will just have to find a SF who isn't ancient.
Once again, you're pulling a KStat and trying to put words into peoples mouths to make a case. It's sad yet humorous at the same time.
I never said Prince was on the decline, as your post suggested. I simply said Prince has peaked, which he has. He's almost 26, has played 3 years in the league after a full 4 years at Kentucky. He's already done 95% of his improving, so that's peaked IMO.
Doesn't mean he wont still be a solid 15/5/3 with solid D role player for the next 8 years. it just means he's peaked and he's not worth $12M a year.

Anthem
10-16-2005, 11:16 PM
Maybe if he had the proven NBA success of a Danny Granger, he'd be worth $12M per year. Oh well.

Give it a rest, you're just baiting him. And you wonder why he responds the way he does.

Suaveness
10-16-2005, 11:18 PM
Sorry to interupt this thread, but that list of "overrated players" is terrible. Most of those guys are quite good. Anyway

Naptown Seth
10-16-2005, 11:21 PM
Sorry to interupt this thread, but that list of "overrated players" is terrible. Most of those guys are quite good. Anyway
Sorry, but you're 110% wrong.
And by the way, just because they're overrated doesn't mean they're bad players.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=overrated
o·ver·rate (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifvhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr-rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif)
tr.v. o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates <dl> <dd> To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.</dd> </dl>

Kstat
10-16-2005, 11:23 PM
I thought it was supposed to be %120 wrong.

Kstat
10-16-2005, 11:26 PM
Oh Jesus. Not the intangible crap talk.

.....and that is why you don't have a real grasp of basketball.

Chemistry and intangibles are what separates teams that win championships from the teams that don't. You don't win titles without great chemistry, it's simple as that. You also don't win them without great intangibles, typically from your role players.

You don't just throw a bunch of talented players together and expect them to win. The parts have to fit, and to fill in the gaps in between you need players that do the work that doesnt show up in the box score.

Robert Horry is a textbook example of this.

Los Angeles
10-16-2005, 11:26 PM
Naptown Seth, I think we have different understandings of what "peaked" means. The "-ed" at the end of the word is used for past tense. Meaning, it sounds like you're saying that he's on the decline.

I read further and I realize that you mean that Prince is "AT HIS PEAK" which I can't disagree with.

Also, I think his stat line would be more impressive if he were the first option on an otherwise average team. Instead, he's just one of five star/starters on an exceptional team.

shags
10-16-2005, 11:37 PM
Naptown Seth, I think we have different understandings of what "peaked" means. The "-ed" at the end of the word is used for past tense. Meaning, it sounds like you're saying that he's on the decline.

I read further and I realize that you mean that Prince is "AT HIS PEAK" which I can't disagree with.

Also, I think his stat line would be more impressive if he were the first option on an otherwise average team. Instead, he's just one of five star/starters on an exceptional team.

I'd agree with that. Prince is entering his prime basketball playing years. But I watched him last year for a 6 week stretch from late January to the end of February where he was probably the Pistons best player. He averaged about 20 ppg. It was amazing to watch. So I think he has room for improvement.

And for the record, I think Prince is worth about $45 to 47 million over 5 years. If he and his agent, want more than $50 million over that span, I'd let him play out the year. He's restricted, and he's not the type of player who'd sabotage the chemistry of the team over a contract dispute.

SoupIsGood
10-16-2005, 11:38 PM
Rasheed Wallace sucks, really, really sucks.


Tony Parker should stick to being French.


Joe Johnson is the modern day Mulan, anybody that watches him play can tell he's a woman. Well, anyone but Atlanta I guess.


Manu Ginobili - SuperManu(re) is pretty good at playing drunk.


Jamaal Magloire has yet to find out he's being paid to play Basketball, not Hockey. It's okay to be completely uninteresting in Hockey.




There, they're not overrated anymore. I win.

Naptown Seth
10-16-2005, 11:40 PM
* Rasheed Wallace - This guy's considered a great basketball player, yet he's never once in his career played like one. He's played close to one (his early years in Portland) yet never all the way. The guy can't make the All-Star team in the big man-deprived East, yet we're suppose to believe he's on the same talent level as a KG? Please. The day Sheed develops a basketball IQ above 42, learns how to rebound, understands the importance of a low-post scoring presense, is the day I'll give him his props. Untill then he's nothing more than a basketball-retarded cry baby drama queen.

* Tony Parker - As I mentioned earlier, Tony can't shoot, can't rebound, can't defend, is a mediocre passer, and doesn't get his teammates involved. Yet because he was fortunate enough to win 2 championships while riding Tim Duncan's jock, he's a great player and a top-8 point guard. I don't think so. Sorry to burst the Parker fanboys bubbles, but Tony's done nothing a Speedy Claxton-level player couldn't do.

* Joe Johnson - This one is iffy. A lot of people overrate him, a lot of people don't. However it's by how much those who overrate him do so that makes him a top-5 overrated player. I've seen this guy listed in people's top-20 list. Seriously.
JJ's a good player, however his stats were padded on a run'n'gun Phoenix team that allowed for inflated stats and wide open shots. Thats what playing with a point guard who's the MVP of the league will do to you. He, and everyone else, will be back down to earth after a few weeks (days?) in Atlanta.

* Manu Ginobili - Another iffy overrated list. About the same as Johnson in that a lot overrate him, a lot don't, but those who do, do it by a lot. Manu isn't a top-5 SG. Not even close. Yet try telling that to half the fans of the NBA and they'll cry for a few minutes then point out Manus 2 Duncan Jock Rider awards. Oops, I mean 2 championship rings..
Don't get me wrong, Manu does a lot of things very good. However he does nothing great (except for maybe flopping) and he's only capable of playing 29 minutes per game due to an extraordinary amount of t/o's, and to a lesser extent, foul trouble. He's a case of a very good player whose glaring flaws are often overlooked because he's yet another "championship caliber" player. :lol: (begining to understand while players who win championships are often overrated?)

* Jamaal Magloire - Has any player ever rode a fluke All-Star appearance more than Magloire has? The guy's an average scorer, above average rebounder, and below average shot blocker/defender. Yet because he lucked into a 2004 All-Star appearance (due to Ilgauskas being injured) he's forever labeled an "All-Star Center", and thus you can't trade a n "All-Star Center" for anything less than a superstar player, because "All-Star Centers" are hard to come by :lol:
Give Chris Mihm the same minutes per game, and he'll get you equal production to Magloire.

Kstat
10-16-2005, 11:41 PM
:lmao:

GO!!!!!
10-16-2005, 11:41 PM
Are Shags and Kstat the same person ??

Kstat
10-16-2005, 11:42 PM
Are Shags and Kstat the same person ??

:finger:

GO!!!!!
10-16-2005, 11:45 PM
:finger:


Kstat :buddies:Shags


:3deadhors

shags
10-16-2005, 11:51 PM
Are Shags and Kstat the same person ??

:finger:

We hate each other. Seriously. He hates me. I hate him. And we've never met. (I hate message boards) We share the same passion for the same basketball team, but beyond that . . . :puke:

:D I'm sure many, many posters will get a chuckle out of that one though. Hee-hee.

Naptown Seth
10-16-2005, 11:51 PM
:lmao:
There's nothing you can legitimatly dispute, so you go the low-road.

And now here comes the "it was so crazy it wasnt even worth a lengthy reply" in 3....2.....1....

GO!!!!!
10-16-2005, 11:57 PM
I think he left the building...

but i'm with you.. seems he's run out of his own hype and is destined to end up like Vanilla Ice... chasing the past dreams when he was once respected and gained recognition as most argumental poster...

next year's forum awards can't come fast enough..

pizza guy
10-17-2005, 12:02 AM
I'll agree with a lot of what you said Seth.

'Sheed is good when focused, and it's hard to stop him from scoring. But, I understand your point of view. He's not on the same level as KG, that's for sure.

Parker probably is riding the Tim Duncan wave, because I can pass to TD all the time. He does come up with good plays in tense situations, and must get some credit.

JJ, well, yeah, he's overrated...

Manu can be because of what you said about his playing time and turnovers. But, with the risk, comes reward. There are few players who are brave enough to completely ignore the team and take it upon themselves to make plays. Manu is one of them, and is generally good at it. There was a game or two where Manu decided that he wasn't going to let the Spurs lose. I'd put him on my team.

Mags, well, he's in the same perverbial boat as JJ.

Also, to elaborate on the "intangibles" discussion...take the Lakers of two seasons ago; a lot of talent, no intangibles. How about the Timberwolves last year, a lot of talent, no chemistry. Heck, even the Pacers to an extent have lacked in the chemistry department - to tell the truth, I think the brawl probably drew the team closer and gave them an "us against the world" mentality.

indytoad
10-17-2005, 12:03 AM
Shags is getting bitter and sarcastic in his old age. Must be the 1000-post threshold.

IndyToad
Sue the parents

Tim
10-17-2005, 12:07 AM
For what its worth KStat, don't you think Joe D will want to give Ben big bucks just as a thank you? Sort of like Rik's last contract, short but a lot of money.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 12:38 AM
For what its worth KStat, don't you think Joe D will want to give Ben big bucks just as a thank you? Sort of like Rik's last contract, short but a lot of money.

Joe wont sacrifice his team for the future.

At the same time, his word is solid. If he's promised ben a reward, he'll give it to him.

locking up Darko is a very high priority next summer too.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 12:40 AM
There's nothing you can legitimatly dispute, so you go the low-road.

And now here comes the "it was so crazy it wasnt even worth a lengthy reply" in 3....2.....1....


Actually, it was referring to the post BEFORE yours, but oh well. Yours was kinda funny, i Guess....

sweabs
10-17-2005, 12:42 AM
locking up Darko is a very high priority next summer too.

Man, Darko had 6 blocks tonight. He's definitely coming into his own on the defensive end which concerns me from a Pacers standpoint. He's not afraid to go up and challenge shots. He'll pick up fouls, but his aggressiveness is what's important.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 12:46 AM
Darko was on KG for about half a quarter tonight, and Flip intentionally didn't give him any help. Darko did surprisingly well. He's actually as quick as KG laterally. KG had a lot of trouble shaking lose.

through 3 meaningless preseason games, Darko's averaging about 8 points and 4 blocks per game off the bench. That kid's size, wingspan and quickness make him a monster defensively.

Darko also managed to shoot 12 free throws in one quarter tonight. :laugh:

shags
10-17-2005, 01:04 AM
Shags is getting bitter and sarcastic in his old age. Must be the 1000-post threshold.

IndyToad
Sue the parents

I've been given the reputation as the "indytoad" of Piston fans by the fellow posters. I'd hate to lose that. :)

CableKC
10-17-2005, 01:22 AM
If Prince wasn't a Piston.......I would want him on the Pacers....he's one of their best SG/SF perimiter defenders ( coming from a team like the Pistons....that's pretty good ). I don't know how much he is asking for....but Dumars knows enough to do his best to match whatever he asks for. Same goes for the "gorilla".....I mean Ben Wallace.....cuz he is going to command a HUGE@SS contract when he comes up for Free Agency next season.

The part of me that is a Pacer fan would hope that some GM next season throws a huge@ss contract at either of them to see if Dumars blinks ( just like the Hawks did with Joe Johnson )....but I get the sense that the core Pistons' player are the type that would take slightly less if it meant staying with their team.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:25 AM
The Pistons players know what a special chemistry they have on the team, especially the starting 5. I'd see ben and Tay as the players LEAST likely to want to give it up.

Ben could have opted out of his contract LAST summer, mind you. He could have had Joe D over a barrell and he chose to remain underpaid. Ben's a guy I respect for that. He won't ask for more than he's worth.

Arcadian
10-17-2005, 01:26 AM
I've been given the reputation as the "indytoad" of Piston fans by the fellow posters. I'd hate to lose that. :)

I thought it was Kstat who liked anime? Are you sure you two are not the same poster? It is so hard to keep track.

skyfire
10-17-2005, 01:53 AM
* Tony Parker - As I mentioned earlier, Tony can't shoot, can't rebound, can't defend, is a mediocre passer, and doesn't get his teammates involved. Yet because he was fortunate enough to win 2 championships while riding Tim Duncan's jock, he's a great player and a top-8 point guard. I don't think so. Sorry to burst the Parker fanboys bubbles, but Tony's done nothing a Speedy Claxton-level player couldn't do.

* Manu Ginobili - Another iffy overrated list. About the same as Johnson in that a lot overrate him, a lot don't, but those who do, do it by a lot. Manu isn't a top-5 SG. Not even close. Yet try telling that to half the fans of the NBA and they'll cry for a few minutes then point out Manus 2 Duncan Jock Rider awards. Oops, I mean 2 championship rings..
Don't get me wrong, Manu does a lot of things very good. However he does nothing great (except for maybe flopping) and he's only capable of playing 29 minutes per game due to an extraordinary amount of t/o's, and to a lesser extent, foul trouble. He's a case of a very good player whose glaring flaws are often overlooked because he's yet another "championship caliber" player. :lol: (begining to understand while players who win championships are often overrated?)


Parker and Ginobili do what they are asked to do for the Spurs, which is penetration, penetration and more penetration. Having Duncan in the middle and Horry and Bowen on the wings, its a simple and effective half court offense.

Who cares about overrated/underrated? Who cares about top 10 PG lists? It pains me everytime I see AI/Marbury/Francis play, but they still feature in those sort of lists. Parker might have less talent than all 3 of those guys but he played his part to become a championship player. I doubt that any of those 3 given the same opportunity would have done anything but messed it up. Parker is possibly the most successful shoot first PG in a long time.

Destined4Greatness
10-17-2005, 02:12 AM
He is only worth about 6 million a year. Sadly he will probably get 12 million a year.

Los Angeles
10-17-2005, 02:20 AM
You know, after thinking about this I can kind of see Prince's career following a path like Dale Davis's.

1) Be an integral part of a winner.

2) Get a big contract

3) Get moved to another team during an inevitable team shakeup because:
. a) your deal is cumbersome
. b) your popularity is high

4) contribute heavily at first

5) See your role decline over time

6) get moved again, but only at the end of your contract

7) be thankful you're still playing - and hope you're playing for a winner.



Maybe now that they are on the same team, Dale can teach him a thing or two on what to do - and what NOT to do - during negotiations.

Fool
10-17-2005, 11:03 AM
2 of the top 5 most overated players are "iffy" to even be on the list?

I'd say the list itself is overated.

Prince isn't worth 12mill and paying that much would hurt the salary situation of the Pistons worse then letting Prince walk would hurt the team.

Frank Slade
10-17-2005, 11:11 AM
Pizza tastes good.
I love deep dish....

FreshPrince22
10-17-2005, 01:10 PM
Both will stay. Tayshaun will get 5 years 50 Million (or a tiny bit more). Ben will get about 3 years 30-36 Million i think. He gets back some of the money he was losing out on the last 5 years or so.

Destined4Greatness
10-17-2005, 01:17 PM
That means they would be paying their starting line-up like what. 50+ mill. Not even the Heat are doing that IIRC.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 01:20 PM
That means they would be paying their starting line-up like what. 50+ mill. Not even the Heat are doing that IIRC.

The heat's starting 5 haven't proven 1/10 as much.

Since86
10-17-2005, 02:24 PM
.....and that is why you don't have a real grasp of basketball.

Chemistry and intangibles are what separates teams that win championships from the teams that don't. You don't win titles without great chemistry, it's simple as that. You also don't win them without great intangibles, typically from your role players.

You don't just throw a bunch of talented players together and expect them to win. The parts have to fit, and to fill in the gaps in between you need players that do the work that doesnt show up in the box score.

Robert Horry is a textbook example of this.


I'll provide Shaq and Kobe's three rings as evidence contradicting that chemistry is a major part of a championship equation.

They were professional enough to play with each other, but they had absolutely no positive chemistry whatsoever.

Kstat
10-17-2005, 02:31 PM
I'll provide Shaq and Kobe's three rings as evidence contradicting that chemistry is a major part of a championship equation.

They were professional enough to play with each other, but they had absolutely no positive chemistry whatsoever.

The Lakers had very good chemistry, actually, until they let their success get to their heads destroy it.

In addition, they had guys like Fox, Horry, Fisher, Ron Harper, AC Green, Horace Grant, guys that brought a TON of intangibles to the mix.

Pacersfan46
10-17-2005, 02:34 PM
I'll say I'm completely on the side of Kstat here, and Seth does seem hung up on stats. Which I won't use his spouting of stats as my example.

It's more his lack of commenting on the defensive side of things. Defense is where I believe chemistry shows up the most. In helping one another, talking a man through a set of picks and where they're coming from .. among other examples. Which is why I say Rasheed, and Tayshawn are absolutely not "overrated". Rasheed is one of the best team defenders in the NBA. He was in Portland, and is in Detroit. Tayshawn is much the same, except he's long like a Giraffe's neck, and annoys the hell out of you on top of it.

Which is all hard for me to say, as I HATED Tayshawn and completely thought he would be a worthless NBA player. I also despised Rasheed's antics in Portland, but respected his game.

Any team in the NBA would be much better with these two on their roster. No question.

Since86
10-17-2005, 03:02 PM
The Lakers had very good chemistry, actually, until they let their success get to their heads destroy it.

In addition, they had guys like Fox, Horry, Fisher, Ron Harper, AC Green, Horace Grant, guys that brought a TON of intangibles to the mix.

Teams always have chemistry, as a whole. Name one team that doesn't get a long as a whole, not just certain players.

The Shaq/Kobe goes to show that not every member needs to get along, and even your two biggest stars are able to hate each other and winning is still very possible.


EDIT: I'm being very vague, because I don't know exactly how to put my thoughts on the subject without going every which direction, so I'll just say this.

Every team has positive chemistry. Not every player does. You can add one player with horrible team skills to a different team, and he can become a great team member (I.E. Rasheed). At the same time, you can add a great team member to another team, and he could become a horrible one. In both situations, the team will remain with a positive net chemistry. Teams with bad apples aren't doomed, just like teams with no bad apples aren't suddenly at the top.

There are so many things above chemistry that affect how successful a team is.

Bball
10-17-2005, 03:56 PM
Teams always have chemistry, as a whole. Name one team that doesn't get a long as a whole, not just certain players.

The Shaq/Kobe goes to show that not every member needs to get along, and even your two biggest stars are able to hate each other and winning is still very possible.


EDIT: I'm being very vague, because I don't know exactly how to put my thoughts on the subject without going every which direction, so I'll just say this.

Every team has positive chemistry. Not every player does. You can add one player with horrible team skills to a different team, and he can become a great team member (I.E. Rasheed). At the same time, you can add a great team member to another team, and he could become a horrible one. In both situations, the team will remain with a positive net chemistry. Teams with bad apples aren't doomed, just like teams with no bad apples aren't suddenly at the top.

There are so many things above chemistry that affect how successful a team is.


Players don't have to 'like' each other for it to work as teammates.... altho it surely helps when they do like each other. The question is whether they can put their differences aside for the good of the team. This is where I think you are getting off track. It may be a sticking point to how we're all defining chemistry but a team has to have good chemistry to really make it work. That is not saying they all have to be buds. That is a totally separate issue.

The willingness to work as a team and trust in your teammates is what I am thinking of with 'chemistry'.

-Bball

shags
10-17-2005, 04:13 PM
Both will stay. Tayshaun will get 5 years 50 Million (or a tiny bit more). Ben will get about 3 years 30-36 Million i think. He gets back some of the money he was losing out on the last 5 years or so.

I think 5 years, $72 million for Ben.

Since86
10-17-2005, 04:29 PM
Players don't have to 'like' each other for it to work as teammates.... altho it surely helps when they do like each other. The question is whether they can put their differences aside for the good of the team. This is where I think you are getting off track. It may be a sticking point to how we're all defining chemistry but a team has to have good chemistry to really make it work. That is not saying they all have to be buds. That is a totally separate issue.

The willingness to work as a team and trust in your teammates is what I am thinking of with 'chemistry'.

-Bball

I think of "not getting along but making it work" as falling into the professionalism category. :shrug:

Chemistry to me is having a good relationship with your teammates in the lockerroom and away from the team. Not only being teammates, but friends.

FreshPrince22
10-17-2005, 04:53 PM
I think 5 years, $72 million for Ben.

Sorry, but no way in hell. That could have been his last deal, and it would have been fair, but I will be the first to say he's not worth that much. That's why I think he'll get that 10-12 million per year for about 3 years, then, if he still wants to play he'll sign for cheaper. Dumars isn't going to comlpetely rape himself by giving a 32 year old (which is what he'll be by the time he plays next season) a brand new max deal. Your deal would have him making 16-17 mil at 37 years old.

naptownmenace
10-17-2005, 05:09 PM
Sorry, but you're 110% wrong.
And by the way, just because they're overrated doesn't mean they're bad players.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=overrated
o·ver·rate (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifvhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr-rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif)
tr.v. o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates <dl> <dd> To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.</dd> </dl>

I have to disagree with at least 4 out of the 5 players you have listed as overrated. I might be inclined to agree with you on Tony Parker but the rest have more than proven themselves.

The Spurs don't win it all last season without Ginobili and the Pistons don't even make it to the Finals the past 2 seasons without Rasheed. No way are these guys overrated. They are both All-Star quality players - and that's a proven fact.

travmil
10-17-2005, 05:33 PM
Sorry, but no way in hell. That could have been his last deal, and it would have been fair, but I will be the first to say he's not worth that much. That's why I think he'll get that 10-12 million per year for about 3 years, then, if he still wants to play he'll sign for cheaper. Dumars isn't going to comlpetely rape himself by giving a 32 year old (which is what he'll be by the time he plays next season) a brand new max deal. Your deal would have him making 16-17 mil at 37 years old.

If Dumars offers him 30-36 Mil for three years, he'll be playing elsewhere. There's no way on earth Ben will sign for that. He's gonna ask for no less than a 5 year deal, and if the Pistons won't give it to him, someone else will.

SoupIsGood
10-17-2005, 05:33 PM
Darn. I wanted to turn this into another Isiah thread instead of another damn Piston related jerk-session.

But Pistons jerk-sessions are what PD is all about, come on now Btown.

shags
10-17-2005, 07:17 PM
If Dumars offers him 30-36 Mil for three years, he'll be playing elsewhere. There's no way on earth Ben will sign for that. He's gonna ask for no less than a 5 year deal, and if the Pistons won't give it to him, someone else will.

Exactly.

FreshPrince22
10-19-2005, 03:39 AM
If Dumars offers him 30-36 Mil for three years, he'll be playing elsewhere. There's no way on earth Ben will sign for that. He's gonna ask for no less than a 5 year deal, and if the Pistons won't give it to him, someone else will.

Ben has already said that Detroit is his home, and as soon as the time comes where the Pistons don't need/want him he will retire from the game. He will get plenty of money either way, and he has a guranteed spot as a big man coach or front office guy when he's done. The man drives a pick-up truck to work, he's not flashy, and he doesn't want to screw up a good thing. He knows he's set for life if he stays a Piston. Trust me, if he gets a huge deal (5 years, big $$$) it will be because Dumars and Bill Davidson offered it, not because he demanded it.

Bball
10-19-2005, 04:11 AM
Ben has already said that Detroit is his home, and as soon as the time comes where the Pistons don't need/want him he will retire from the game. He will get plenty of money either way, and he has a guranteed spot as a big man coach or front office guy when he's done. The man drives a pick-up truck to work, he's not flashy, and he doesn't want to screw up a good thing. He knows he's set for life if he stays a Piston. Trust me, if he gets a huge deal (5 years, big $$$) it will be because Dumars and Bill Davidson offered it, not because he demanded it.


I remember some of the Pacer fans telling some of us other Pacer fans that Reggie already had his "thank you" contract and would sign for the minimum for his last two years and would in no way impede the negotiations of other players.

In reality, Reggie got 18 Million for his last two years.

Say what you will about Ben Wallace and his willingness to work for whatever is left in the vault but I'll believe it when I see it.

Once the 'voices' (friends, family, sportscasters, AGENT) starts working on him he will feel 'dissed' if the Pistons don't cough up a fairly substantial offer.

I used my Reggie example because Reggie was clearly a lot closer to retirement and had already had a fairly nice payday from his team.... Ben still has some years left and he will be expected to (by friends, family, sportscasters, AGENT), and will , milk TPTB for every last dime. IMHO, of course...

-Bball

Naptown Seth
10-19-2005, 05:48 PM
I have to disagree with at least 4 out of the 5 players you have listed as overrated. I might be inclined to agree with you on Tony Parker but the rest have more than proven themselves.

The Spurs don't win it all last season without Ginobili and the Pistons don't even make it to the Finals the past 2 seasons without Rasheed. No way are these guys overrated. They are both All-Star quality players - and that's a proven fact.
Ok, first of all, just because you've proven youself doesn't mean you can't be overrated. Rasheed Wallace has proven himself to be a high quality role-player. Yet he's talked about as if he were of All-Star caliber. So yes that does make him quite overrated.

And you're comment that the Spurs don't win it all without Manu Ginobili is extremely flawed. The Spurs don't win the championship without Robert Horry as well, does that make Horry a great player? Hardly.
Manu is a very good player, I won't deny that. However it's people such as yourself that overrate him. People who can't distinguish between true championship caliber players and championship caliber role players.
Right now there are maybe 3 "championship caliber" players in the entire league - Shaq, Duncan, and KG. These are players whom you can win a championship with by surrounding them with a solid cast. If you don't have one of these 3 players, then you're gonna be very hard press to win a championship. Look at the Pistons - it took a team with above average players at all 5 positions that had a Hall of a Fame coach and played as hard as any team I've sever seen to win a championship. And even then it was one of the luckiest championship runs in recent time, with all of their playoff opponents facing major injuries.

Naptown Seth
10-19-2005, 05:55 PM
That was comical in itself.

Note to DW and LB, if you can get this "horrible" baller on the Pacers, Ill gladly take any championships he helps bring us, wether or not he rides JO or Artest "jock"


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
When did I say Tony Parker was a "horrible baller"??

NOTE TO EVERYONE READING THIS: Just because you're overrated doesn't mean you're (A) a bad basketball player or (B) you're not proven. If you can't comprehend this then I suggest leaving all sports-related message boards a.s.a.p. Thank you.

Point Blank: I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you're another sheep who forms his opinions based off of others opinions, which themselves our based off of the opinions of drug abusing nimrods like Bill Walton.

Can Tony Parker shoot? No.
Can Tony Parker rebound? No.
Can Tony Parker pass? Not really.
Can Tony Parker defend worth a damn? No.
Does Tony Parker get his teammates involved like a top-tier point guard? No.

Is Tony Parker, along with names such as Derek Fisher, Avery Johnson, Ron Harper, and Kenny Smith, proof that teams only need mediocre point guards to win a championship as long as they have a megastar? Yes.

Tony Parker is a 1 trick pony - a great penetrator. Because of that he's a solid scorer. However he does nothing else well at all. Maybe in your NBA Jam-type world where all that matters is scoring Tony Parker is a great player. However in my world, where it's the players overall ability that truly matters, Tony Parker is average at best.

shags
10-19-2005, 06:49 PM
When did I say Tony Parker was a "horrible baller"??

NOTE TO EVERYONE READING THIS: Just because you're overrated doesn't mean you're (A) a bad basketball player or (B) you're not proven. If you can't comprehend this then I suggest leaving all sports-related message boards a.s.a.p. Thank you.

Point Blank: I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you're another sheep who forms his opinions based off of others opinions, which themselves our based off of the opinions of drug abusing nimrods like Bill Walton.

Can Tony Parker shoot? No.
Can Tony Parker rebound? No.
Can Tony Parker pass? Not really.
Can Tony Parker defend worth a damn? No.
Does Tony Parker get his teammates involved like a top-tier point guard? No.

Is Tony Parker, along with names such as Derek Fisher, Avery Johnson, Ron Harper, and Kenny Smith, proof that teams only need mediocre point guards to win a championship as long as they have a megastar? Yes.

Tony Parker is a 1 trick pony - a great penetrator. Because of that he's a solid scorer. However he does nothing else well at all. Maybe in your NBA Jam-type world where all that matters is scoring Tony Parker is a great player. However in my world, where it's the players overall ability that truly matters, Tony Parker is average at best.

See, the thing is if Tony Parker played for the Pacers, in your opinion he'd all of a sudden be able to shoot, rebound, pass, defend worth a damn, and get his teammates involved like a top-tier point guard.

As Capt. Jack Ross said, "Those are the facts of the case. And they are undisputed."

Naptown Seth
10-20-2005, 01:53 AM
He Seth, Ill be really ****ing blunt.

If you want to disagree with me on something, then do it.

But dont waste my time by ****ing calling me "fake" and "stupid" on a internet message board.

If you want to be a bad-***, PM me. Ill send you my address and we can meet up...........

If you want to have a ****ing discussion without two and three year old commets like "you cant think on your own"
I believe this was the original message between the two of us....[quote=vapacersfan]That was comical in itself.

Note to DW and LB, if you can get this "horrible" baller on the Pacers, Ill gladly take any championships he helps bring us, wether or not he rides JO or Artest "jock"


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:...so it looks to me like you were the one who started the childish comments.
And instead of proving me wrong by explaining your opinion, you wanna meet me somewhere and fight me? WTF? :confused:

Pacersfan46
10-27-2005, 07:35 AM
In reality, Reggie got 18 Million for his last two years.


Huh?

When they waived him they said his year remaining was 6 million. Seeing as how NBA contracts don't allow you to go down in value every year, so I'm only seeing the possibility for a 12 million total for the last 2 years. Not 18.

What am I missing?

Fool
10-27-2005, 09:53 AM
NBA contracts can be front loaded. Brevin Knights current contract goes down as the years go on.

(Note: I'm not saying Reggie's did, I'm just saying there is no rule that says NBA contracts can't be highest in the first years and lowest in the last years.)

Anthem
10-27-2005, 03:24 PM
NBA contracts can be front loaded. Brevin Knights current contract goes down as the years go on.

(Note: I'm not saying Reggie's did, I'm just saying there is no rule that says NBA contracts can't be highest in the first years and lowest in the last years.)

Yeah, you're right, but Reggie didn't get 18 million over two seasons. He got 18mil over three, or 6 per year.

Pacersfan46
10-27-2005, 03:29 PM
NBA contracts can be front loaded. Brevin Knights current contract goes down as the years go on.

(Note: I'm not saying Reggie's did, I'm just saying there is no rule that says NBA contracts can't be highest in the first years and lowest in the last years.)

Wow, never seen that before. Interesting.

Anyway, I'm sure it would still have to follow the same % rules as a backloaded contract in the NBA. By following the 10 or 12% rule. Either way that's still too big of a gap to be the blame.

shags
10-30-2005, 09:29 PM
According to Mlive.com's Pistons beat writer, A. Sherrod Blakely, Prince and the Pistons have agreed in principle to a contract extension. It'll be announced officially tomorrow, according to him. He posted it on their message board.

No terms were announced. I'm guessing 5 years, $48 million, and yes, this is ABSOLUTE pure speculation on my part. We'll see how close I am.

Kstat
10-30-2005, 11:07 PM
Congrats to Tay. He's been such a big part of our success, he deserves to get paid.

Kstat
10-30-2005, 11:35 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2208888

apparently Prince is worth $50 million to the Pistons over 5 years.

Good for Tay.

Kstat
10-31-2005, 12:57 AM
its now being reported that its closer to 9 mil a year....

either way, who cares.

An all-defensive team SF that can post up, shoot the three, and even play a little point? In today's day and age, he's well worth that kind of cash.

Nevemind that he already has the most important defensive play in Pistons history under his belt....

That said, the best thing the Pistons can do is play him a lot LESS this season. He wore down last year because he was our most overworked starter. Mo Evans should take a ton of time away from him this year.

FreshPrince22
10-31-2005, 03:30 AM
Yep, the final numbers are 5 years $47 Million. Well worth it considering Bobby Simmons got the same exact amount, and Tayshaun is clearly a better player.

mbndp
10-31-2005, 03:10 PM
Tay was Detroit's MVP, according to the Pistons player, through much of last season. LB hardly ever used a SF off the bench, so Tay ended up completely exhausted by playoff time. He had nothing left and his play fell off. That's why they went out and signed Evans. Evans can really play and he's a very physical super athlete. He'll bang with Artest, although I cannot imagine he's as strong as Ron. Still having Evans will help against him in a long series and Tay will stay a lot fresher. Also, Delfino really can play, although I imagine that he'll be playing more SG off the bench against you guys, since Artest is such a bull. Delfino is a strong young player, but his strength isn't in Artest's league.

Anthem
10-31-2005, 04:42 PM
Bummer. I was hoping they'd pay more for Tayshaun. That's a good price for him.