PDA

View Full Version : Maybe the Pacers don't need Artest anymore



Unclebuck
10-13-2005, 10:05 AM
Yes, this is really me, and yes, I'm completely sober.

The key question that has haunted the Pacers and its fans the past few seasons has remained the same. Would the Pacers team be better off without Artest, without the distractions, without the drama, and without his play that often strays from team ball. We all know the Pacers cannot get fair value for Ron, there is no use discussing that. Pacers likely will be able to get a role player for Ron, maybe a role-playing big guy. But maybe that is all they need now. So the questions haven't really changed, but the Pacers team situation has changed.

Things have changed, new players have been brought in and the Pacers drafted a rookie who seems like he'll be the real thing. Granger in another season or two will be good enough to man the small forward position and good enough to help the Pacers win a championship.

Saras has also been brought in to bolster the backcourt. Bender appears ready to contribute. The truth is the Pacers are loaded at the point guard, shooting guard and small forward positions. Jax can slide over and play the small forward, which would allow Fred, Saras and AJ to get more time. So maybe the Pacers would be better of trading Ron for a big guy (non-all-star for sure, but someone who can help us there).

I've argued for two seasons that the Pacers could not win a championship without Artest, and I've also argued that if the Pacers did trade Ronnie the Pacers would have to make some other significant changes in order to get back up to championship level. But does that argument still hold ? If Granger is as good as it appears, he needs to play 25 plus minutes per game. (sometimes rookies are too good to keep on the bench) So maybe the Pacers would not have to make other significant changes, so maybe if the Pacers make a smart trade of Artest the Pacers as they are currently constructed (minus Artest) can win a championship.

If the Pacers can trade Artest (yes my keyboard is about to explode) for a role playing big guy - How good would they be. The team would be more stable, so on and so forth, you know all the arguments in favor of trading Ronnie. You also know all the arguments in favor of keeping Ronnie.

Of course the logical thing to suggest is why not wait (to trade Artest) maybe until February or next summer, let Ron play this season in a Pacers uniform, hopefully his trade value will be a little higher in 10 months and next season Granger will be better and ready to be the starting small forward. Sounds like a logical plan, but maybe Carlisle is sick of dealing with Ron, maybe his teammates are just sick of Ronnie's act.

We all have to realize how unusual it is for Rick to call players out in the media. Maybe Ron's play during training camp has not been team oriented. Maybe Pacers management and coaching staff now realizes that they are finally ready to move on without Ron and that the team has enough other good players to be better without him. Maybe playing almost a full season without Artest proved to the players, coaches and management that the team runs much more smoothly without Ron's antics.

In addition to all this, I'm very concerned about Jeff Foster's health right now, he does not seem to be healing, shouldn't he be recovered by from his second hip surgery. I suspect that Foster will be injured for much of the season or at best he won't be 100% all season long. We all know Pollard is only a spot player at this point in his career due to his back, if he has to play 10-15 minutes per game he'll need a month off by the time Thanksgiving comes around. And I don't think David Harrison is ready to be the Pacers center this season. So the Pacers need help at the center position.

What type of center could the Pacers get for Ron ? Certainly not an allstar. I'm thinking more in the Jerome James or Adonal Foyle level of center. Someone who could help us with the Heat or the Pistons in the playoffs. Someone who can play 25 minutes per game at the center position. NBA history is filled with teams that have traded away a very good player because they have a rookie who is ready to fill the void.

Some of you are probably in shock; some of you probably think I'm being sarcastic. Well I'm not. What I'm doing is trying to take all my emotions out of it. Keep in mind I have not seen Ron play basketball in about 11 months, and I know once I do see him again all logic will go out the window, I'll realize how much I love him, and how much we need him, but right now I'm trying to look at the Pacers in a cold sober sort of way.

McClintic Sphere
10-13-2005, 10:24 AM
I'll take Bird at his word that no one is untradable, including Ron and that anything perceived as improving the team will be done. I'm certain the Pacer's have had feelers out for possible trades all along, but haven't seen anything that they thought worked, or this would have already been done. The Granger factor is certainly a big one when it comes to Ron's value to the team, but remember many teams questioned his health before the draft and we don't know how reliable he will be for 82 games. One thing we have never had to question about Ron is his durability or willingness to play through pain. I remember when he was first traded here and had either a foot or ankle injury and Ron Mercer had to tell Isiah that he would have to take Ron out because he simply would not take himself off the floor. I think this is an issue that the Pacer's can be patient on. Now is not the time to make a trade. I see the Pacer's as being a more mature team that has weathered an enormous storm last year and won't be rattled by controversy very easily. Ergo, Ron will be called out and have his feet held to the fire when he acts out. The Pacer's are not going for playoff position. They want to win it all and will can afford to see how things play out before the trade deadline before acting. That will also put them in a stronger position to trade from as many teams will be out of contention and the P's will know what they have in Bender and Granger, not to mention how strong the other options at 2 are besides Jax, allowing him to be another option at 3 if Ron has to be taken to Bellevue.

Hicks
10-13-2005, 10:28 AM
Great post. I believe Ron is becoming more expendable, especially with Granger here.

naptownmenace
10-13-2005, 10:36 AM
I really don't know if the Pacers need Artest or not. That's a very discomforting thing, not knowing if your favorite team is better with or without one of their All-Stars.

The thing that makes me the angriest is that I really believe the Pacers could've received a decent player last year for Artest. Baron Davis was had for next to nothing, imagine what the Pacers might've done with Bditty in the lineup during the playoffs. Antoine Walker - warts and all - might've been enough to get us past the Pistons last year.

Now the Pacers will have to settle for a Jerome James type player. Ugh. If they could get Adonal Foyle and Mike Dunleavy for Ron and Pollard (I don't know if the salaries match) - that'd be a major coup considering Artest's act this week.

I fully expect the Pacers to hold out in hopes that Ron gets it together. Hopefully, he'll improve during the preseason to the point that his stock rises. I've just about given up hope that he won't mess up again.

DisplacedKnick
10-13-2005, 10:48 AM
I thought two things from the moment you slected Granger.

1. LUCKY *******S!!!!
2. He's the perfect contingency plan for Ron. I wouldn't want to lay this much on a rookie but he COULD be as good as Ron one day - better offensively and very good (though predicting anyone to be as good as Ron here is foolish) on defense. But if Ron was to blow up - or the brain trust just decides they can't live with him any more, who better to step into his shoes? Other than maybe Joey Graham who I had rated one spot ahead of Granger.

There were players out there who were quality guys when you picked who really could have helped fill some needs. Personally, if Wayne Simien gets past his shoulder problems, I look for him to be a 20-10 guy in the NBA year after year - the man's a beast. And if you can depend on Ron your need for a physical post player far outweighs your need for another swingman.

Just looked at the draft again and I gotta say, when I look at picks 7-14 I can't help wondering what those GM's were thinking.

Doug
10-13-2005, 11:31 AM
Thoughts:

a) One preseason game does not a rookie phenomenon make

b) One preseason game does not a Bender-breakout make

c) We won't trade Ron for peanuts. If we had, we would have done it last year. We will either wait until he self destructs (and hope he doesn't take the team with him again) and cut him. Or we'll let him play and get his value up.


But yes, given what's going lately, Ron seems as crazy and distruptive as ever. Maybe things are different "on the inside" of the team, but it doesn't seem that way from out here.

Jon Theodore
10-13-2005, 11:38 AM
Dumb idea. Wait until the season starts. You think ronnie was taking that preseason game seriously, DOUBT IT.

I don't think the pacers have a chance of even making it to the ECF this year without another big man.

Dumbest thing we did was let Dale go. Our time to win a championship is NOW, and why the hell did we need a point guard. AJ is the best backup in the game!

We have NO big guys worth **** basically. And i'm furious.

We need to try to trade Sarunas or AJ or fred for a big guy like Udonis Haslem (someone like him, he is basically the modern day dale davis)

I was against signing Sarunas when it happened and I still am. WE NEED BIG GUYS SO LETS GO GET SOME POINT GUARD.

But whatever, I have a feeling Tinsley will be traded for a solid big guy. If we sign Jimmie Hunter you can almost BET on it. A lot of teams would LOVE to have a guy like Tinsley i'm sure

Or maybe, we just let Bender create some "potential" talk and ship him out for a "'REAL" big guy.

One way or another, that big trade that everyone was talking about...needs to happen before this team can be a serious contender.

Croshere and Pollard are our big guys right now, laughable.

beast23
10-13-2005, 11:46 AM
IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk.

First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up. Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.

But Doug is totally correct. Let's not get warm and wiggly just because Bender looked decent in one preseason game and Granger is "supposedly" the next coming of Christ.

Let's see some consistency and some health issues resolved first.

BillS
10-13-2005, 11:46 AM
Rather than start a new thread :) I'll add to this one ...

With the statements and play in the preseason game, I think Ron dropped his trade value to a bag of peanuts and a beer. With Carlisle calling him out, I think the stage has been set for the Pacers to be able to accept that for him.

That being said, we've had "this is Bender's breakout year" before. We've had plenty of "if healthy" players before. As in the past, if all of these blow up in our faces, we'll be in trouble (again). Therefore, there isn't any reason to dump Artest right away.

I would expect that no move will be made for Artest until well into the season. I suspect that he will make a steady progression from starter onto the bench and down toward the end of it should he continue to be a problem. With his current salary, benching him is not a horrible thought, and playing him is not going to increase his trade value.

I also think that after their play during the suspension, the team is able to handle Ronnie psychologically - they will be able to concentrate on their own play rather than his disruptions, as long as Carlisle shows willing to take him out and sit him down when his play affects the play of others. The press call-out would have reinforced their confidence that he will do this.

What we lack this year, as UB pointed out, is a desperate sense that without Ron we are also-rans. So far, the only one who doesn't realize this seems to be Ron.

Bottom line is that I expect Ron to either control himself or become a role player. If he drops to DNP-CD status, that beer will taste pretty good in February as long as everyone else is stepping up.

How do I differ from those who have advocated trading him in the past? Because I believe that he can still contribute to the team <i><b>should he choose to</b></i> and I don't agree that we have lost opportunitites by not dumping him for a used lottery ticket in previous seasons.

Now, pardon me while I get my Ron-Ron Fan Club card out of my wallet before it explodes :D

Harmonica
10-13-2005, 11:48 AM
My god... UB's become a hater. And a gummy hater at that. Oh, and Ron's an idiot. There, I said it...again.

foulplay
10-13-2005, 11:54 AM
:confused: I agree that we need another big man, but I wouldn't bet my future, or a quest for an NBA title, on a rookie and Benders knees. Bring them both, Granger and Benders knees, along slowly until the trading deadline. By then you will know if both are for real or not and know how our season is going. If both are doing well and the season well, but not up to what we all expected, make a trade. Otherwise bring Granger along for the season to get the needed experience and pull the trade in the off season. That way we get a shot at a title, bring the rookie along slowly and if Artest gets through the season with no major flairups, his trade value goes up and makes more sense.

RWB
10-13-2005, 12:02 PM
Sounds like we need to revisit the Ronnie coming off the bench thread again. Is Rick really trying to set this up? Shoot that's the way they do it around here.

Suaveness
10-13-2005, 12:55 PM
I've lost all respect for you, UB....

...I cry as the hater club increases and the RA FAN CLUB goes down.


I still say we should have him here. Off the bench would be fine. But I still think he's needed. Granger hasn't even played in an NBA game. How do you know he's going to do spectacularly? He may turn out to be just an average player, in which case we won't win anything.

PacerMan
10-13-2005, 01:02 PM
I disagree strongly that we can't/won't get quality in return for Ron. That was valid LAST year, when he was SUSPENDED and couldn't play for anybody. NOW, he's back playing and he's an all star caliber player. There was a market for Sprewell and lots of other "problem" players in the past and there's a market for Ron now. Plenty of teams desperate for a scorer or fan attraction, etc will roll the dice on the chance to come up big with him.
I think it's wise to give it some time and see what happens unless of course Rick/Larry have had it with his crap.
If so, I fully expect to get a GOOD player in return.

indygeezer
10-13-2005, 01:03 PM
I've lost all respect for you, UB....

...I cry as the hater club increases and the RA FAN CLUB goes down.


I still say we should have him here. Off the bench would be fine. But I still think he's needed. Granger hasn't even played in an NBA game. How do you know he's going to do spectacularly? He may turn out to be just an average player, in which case we won't win anything.


An average player would contribute more than Mr. Artest did last year.

indygeezer
10-13-2005, 01:05 PM
If so, I fully expect to get a GOOD player in return.


Get out the hammer and nails....cause I'm gonna get crucified for this.

To Atlanta for picks (instant LT cap relief of about 6 mil)

indygeezer
10-13-2005, 01:10 PM
What picks?

They don't have any left after they morgaged the team and fired an owner just to get a 6'7 PG who's never played the position for any decent amount of time.


Sorry....I was using them as an example of the type team to look for. In deep trouble....so deep Ron wouldn't be enough to help them win. And a team with cap room to do that kind of deal.

Suaveness
10-13-2005, 01:17 PM
An average player would contribute more than Mr. Artest did last year.


An average player isn't enough to get us over the top. I shudder to think what would happen if JO was the main scoring option and played like the end of last year....

BlueNGold
10-13-2005, 01:20 PM
IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk. First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up.
Nope, his trade value can go down....and keeping Ron around for any period of time is a risk.



Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.
He could blow up late in the year and that suspension would disrupt the team. This would also reduce his trade value further. ...and a blow up could get him banned from the league....with 0 trade value.



But Doug is totally correct. Let's not get warm and wiggly just because Bender looked decent in one preseason game and Granger is "supposedly" the next coming of Christ.Let's see some consistency and some health issues resolved first.

Good point, unfortunately. ...but if the Pacers become comfortable that Granger and Bender are likely to stay healthy and meet expectations, they would be fools not to trade Artest. Admittedly, that is a big IF. ...but I am not saying to give him away. I think we would benefit more by trading him to get another decent center....one that can score and defend big guys on Detroit and Miami.

Bball
10-13-2005, 01:27 PM
IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk.

First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up. Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.

But Doug is totally correct. Let's not get warm and wiggly just because Bender looked decent in one preseason game and Granger is "supposedly" the next coming of Christ.

Let's see some consistency and some health issues resolved first.

Right on!

-Bball

Bball
10-13-2005, 01:30 PM
Nope, his trade value can go down....and keeping Ron around for any period of time is a risk.


Unfortunately, this part is true...
Not only could he suffer an injury putting his career into question we also know he isn't immune to a league imposed suspension and likely on a short leash anyway. So yes, his value could go down.

-Bball

grace
10-13-2005, 01:34 PM
I'm not convinced we need Ron, but that doesn't mean I think we should get rid of him either. Besides, who in his right mind would trade for him? The Zen Master is the only one I can think of who is that arrogant and stupid enough to think he can fix Ron's brain.

Frank Slade
10-13-2005, 01:39 PM
http://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gif

The Pacers Can Win a championship without Artest !!!!!!.

:innocent:

grace
10-13-2005, 01:44 PM
http://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gif

The Pacers Can Win a championship without Artest !!!!!!.

:innocent:

I certainly like that better than that stupid "United, One Goal" thing.

Believe_in_blue
10-13-2005, 01:47 PM
I would kind of compare Ron to Randy Moss. He was a distraction to the Vikings so they traded him. Now their offense and their team is struggling big time. We absolutly have to give Ron at least a couple months into the season before we can even think about trading him. Ron is as giant "if" as far as what your going to get out of him during a game, but the replacments we have for him is also an "if". He was an MVP type player before the brawl, lets see if he can get back to that before we offically write him off.

heywoode
10-13-2005, 01:58 PM
IMO, keeping Ron around for a while to possibly build better trade value is not a risk.

First of all his trade value can go nowhere but up. Secondly, if he is a distraction, then suspend his ***.

These two sentences alone contradict each other. Keeping Artest around is ALWAYS going to be a risk. The Detroit incident got dropped on us, and it apparently could happen again as soon as tomorrow night.

His trade value was going up, but if our coach is calling him out 48 minutes into the new season, it doesn't look good. Dealing with last year, and now the first chance he gets, he falls on his face? That proves that his trade value has somewhere to go but up...If you suspend his ***, you give it a further avenue downward as well...

Tough spot to be in, but I don't think we have a choice right now. Seems like Artest is holding our entire franchise hostage...

Sorry, I should've read the whole thread before posting...Didn't mean to jump on a 'dog your ***' bandwagon!!

Unclebuck
10-13-2005, 02:13 PM
****, ****, **** ***, this is the last time I leave my computer on when my little brother is around. He even sounded like me a little bit

Hicks
10-13-2005, 02:17 PM
****, ****, ****in ***, this is the last time I leave my computer on when my little brother is around. He even sounded like me a little bit

I don't believe you. That was straight from your brain.

Frank Slade
10-13-2005, 02:17 PM
****, ****, ****in ***, this is the last time I leave my computer on when my little brother is around. He even sounded like me a

little bit

Phew glad to see the good ole Unclebuck is back. All is right in the world...

Peck
10-13-2005, 02:20 PM
I read U.B.'s post with sounds of rimshots going off in my head after each line.:D

Ok, I'll take you at your word. But beleive me I also know the first time (tonight) that you see Ron on the floor it will all be over with. You'll be in full fledged Ron-Ron mode. But we love you anyway.

Look, I'm not going to go down this road today. I'm well on record from two & a half seasons ago wanting to move his psycho @ss on down the road. But other than Jay & a few others I was wondering alone in the wilderness.

You see that's why I didn't even bat an eye at his game the other night & frankly I was suprised when I read Carlisle comments the next day because, to me, that's just the way Ron is. I didn't even consider him to be playing out of his game.

Someone on here last season made a brilliant observation (I can't remember who) that Ron was like the one true ring from the Lord of the Rings books. All powerfull yet totally corrupts the wearer.

That is the way I've always considered him & I've always considered fans of his much like I do spouses of abusers who keep going back to them after a beating.

What does any of the above mean? Nothing.

The only real serious issue I want to state is this & I've been saying this for over two years.

Ron's antics both in public & in private weigh very heavy on his team mates. You can't just discount that & yes no matter what you think if you can't trust your teammate then that does impact (thanks Jay) team chemistry.

DisplacedKnick
10-13-2005, 02:26 PM
I'm not convinced we need Ron, but that doesn't mean I think we should get rid of him either. Besides, who in his right mind would trade for him? The Zen Master is the only one I can think of who is that arrogant and stupid enough to think he can fix Ron's brain.

There's always Isiah - as we watch Larry Brown shoot himself in the background we'd hear Zeke say, "Ron and I have a connection."

grace
10-13-2005, 02:28 PM
I would kind of compare Ron to Randy Moss. He was a distraction to the Vikings so they traded him. Now their offense and their team is struggling big time.

But they sure know how to party without him!

Unclebuck
10-13-2005, 02:47 PM
I'm not trying to jerk anyone's chain, not trying to play some feeble April Fools joke on anyone. Yes Hicks that was me, not my little brother, I don't even have a little brother, but I figured maybe some of you were thinking that I could not have posted all of that. Well I did.

If you go back and read what I posted, I never said the Pacers should trade Artest. But I'm torn right now on how I really feel. See I haven't seen Ron play in almost 11 months and I knew I better post this now because once I see Ronnie I will be swayed to keep him at all costs. Logic will go out the window.

I also want to make it clear that I spent some time this morning writing my post (as you notice I don't have my usual typos) and I tried to be as true to my feelings as I could and having just re-read my post, I feel I have achieved my goal. You can make a strong case for trading Ronnie, and I tried to do just that. But I admit the weakest part of my argument is when I depend on Bender to come through.

OnlyPacersLeft
10-13-2005, 02:57 PM
uh no? This team NEEDS ron to win a title. Isn't that the goal? or do we want to wait for granger to become something????you feel like waiting another 2 years for a title? do you think JO is enough toughness for this team? or does ron bring that intensity and toughness we need? I think he does. JO=SOFT....Hell our whole team=SOFT...Right? Maybe with the exception of jack? We need ron...And this is just preseason, so don't break an ankle jumping off the wagon.

OnlyPacersLeft
10-13-2005, 02:58 PM
and yes, let's all watch as bender becomes Tmac this season and averages 25 and 10...BAHAHHAHHAa

OnlyPacersLeft
10-13-2005, 02:59 PM
http://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gifhttp://edweb.tusd.k12.az.us/Safford/Secme/My%20Pictures/Robert/pig%20fly.gif

The Pacers Can Win a championship without Artest !!!!!!.

:innocent:
no they can't...

Peck
10-13-2005, 03:04 PM
oh I love this.

We now have a full fledged war between the Artest & O'Neal faction getting ready to flare up.

What about those of us who would trade both of them for Kevin Garnett?

Unclebuck
10-13-2005, 03:08 PM
What about those of us who would trade both of them for Kevin Garnett?

A two for one. Ron and J.O both for Garnett ?

Frank Slade
10-13-2005, 03:10 PM
oh I love this.

We now have a full fledged war between the Artest & O'Neal faction getting ready to flare up.

What about those of us who would trade both of them for Kevin Garnett?

Kravitz is that you ?

:rollout: :kravitz: :lazy:

beast23
10-13-2005, 03:17 PM
All the talk about Artest coming off the bench must be an attempt to put us in a position where we reduce his overall importance to the lineup and the rotation.

If you bring him off the bench and he is a disruption, then you pull him and just play your starting SF and SG more minutes.

Maybe this is an attempt to learn how to better play without him. That way, if the All-Star Ron shows up, then that's just icing on the cake. If the a-hole Ron shows up, then he isn't as disruptive to your rotation if he's coming off the bench anyway.

Looks like Rick is turning his contingency plan into his primary mode of operation.

grace
10-13-2005, 03:20 PM
With Ron, without Ron. With JO, without JO. You could even bring Roger Brown back from the dead. Guess what? I don't think we'll win a championship. There I said it. I mean it too. We had our chance when we made it to the finals.











I will now stand by and watch as everyone turns their hatred toward me thereby unifying the board against one common enemy as I once again take one for the team.

Peck
10-13-2005, 03:23 PM
A two for one. Ron and J.O both for Garnett ?

Yes

Harmonica
10-13-2005, 03:31 PM
With Ron, without Ron. With JO, without JO. You could even bring Roger Brown back from the dead. Guess what? I don't think we'll win a championship. There I said it. I mean it too. We had our chance when we made it to the finals.

Interesting. So you think the 2000 finals were as good as it will ever get for the Pacers?

Harmonica
10-13-2005, 03:33 PM
Yes

I'd do it. And Ron would be close to Prince and could become his music-mogul protegé.

ChicagoJ
10-13-2005, 03:43 PM
All the talk about Artest coming off the bench must be an attempt to put us in a position where we reduce his overall importance to the lineup and the rotation.

If you bring him off the bench and he is a disruption, then you pull him and just play your starting SF and SG more minutes.

Maybe this is an attempt to learn how to better play without him. That way, if the All-Star Ron shows up, then that's just icing on the cake. If the a-hole Ron shows up, then he isn't as disruptive to your rotation if he's coming off the bench anyway.

Looks like Rick is turning his contingency plan into his primary mode of operation.

If this is true, Rick = :einstein:

RWB
10-13-2005, 03:45 PM
I'd do it. And Ron would be close to Prince and could become his music-mogul protegé.

Then could we call him "the former basketball player known as Artest"?

Frank Slade
10-13-2005, 03:52 PM
Interesting. So you think the 2000 finals were as good as it will ever get for the Pacers?

so what grace is saying is....
http://re2.mm-c1.yimg.com/image/1332954374

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/911945136

and now ..http://re2.mm-c1.yimg.com/image/995330651

:banana::bananadea :bananadea

grace
10-13-2005, 04:04 PM
Interesting. So you think the 2000 finals were as good as it will ever get for the Pacers?

Yep. I'm still wavering about the Colts. For years I thought we'd never get closer to the Super Bowl than one missed Hail Mary pass. I'd like to think we can make it. If we don't this year as far as I'm concerned to can add :colts: to Frank's list.


But hey, I'm a pessimist. It's how I live.

sixthman
10-13-2005, 05:04 PM
Panic attack alert.

One game into the pre season and someone thinks we should trade Ron Artest for Jerome James or Adonal Foyle. Good grief! Not only are these guys probably permanent stiffs, but they are over paid and and have lousy contracts.

I'd say this thread is one that needs to be book marked for a Nostradamus check in a year. One way or other it ought to provide some serious laughs. Or a good cry.

Harmonica
10-13-2005, 05:15 PM
Then could we call him "the former basketball player known as Artest"?

And it's RWB for the alley-oop! Good one.

Jon Theodore
10-13-2005, 05:18 PM
NEWSFLASH, pacers wont win a title this year unless they get a SOLID center.

end of story, ron artest doesn't matter. Assume last year was last year, but instead of DH/Pollard sitting on their asses most the time, we had a contributor at center.

So, i will have no hope for this team, until I see us get a real center. End of story.

and all this david harrison potential is garbage to me. Anyone see his brief appearance on real world.

One quote "David just wants to get ****ed up."

Frank Slade
10-13-2005, 05:19 PM
Anyone see his brief appearance on real world.

When was this ,,, this year ?

Evan_The_Dude
10-13-2005, 05:51 PM
and all this david harrison potential is garbage to me. Anyone see his brief appearance on real world.

One quote "David just wants to get ****ed up."

Welcome to behind the scenes. I guess Charles Barkley and Reggie Miller hanging out at strip clubs and bars makes them garbage too?

I wish the regular season would hurry up and start so that game by game there will be less and less people wanting to see Artest gone. By midseason he's gonna need an extra car to carry his bandwagon.

Since86
10-13-2005, 05:57 PM
Anyone see his brief appearance on real world.

When was this ,,, this year ?


It was last season, and he was hardly embarassing himself.

They went to a club, showed him drinking and laughing with everyone, then they went back to the house played mini-basketball. Hulk then sits outside on the steps with his buddy that lived in the house and talk while their waiting on his cab back to the pacer's hotel.

This is pure speculation, but due to not hearing anything about him missing curfew I'd imagine he was back in time for the coaches.

The friend that lived in the house went on to talk VERY highly of David the person, even calling him his black brother. For a guy that's just hit the lotto and rumored to be absolutely nuts, he was very tame by any party standards.

SoupIsGood
10-13-2005, 07:30 PM
NEWSFLASH, pacers wont win a title this year unless they get a SOLID center.

end of story, ron artest doesn't matter. Assume last year was last year, but instead of DH/Pollard sitting on their asses most the time, we had a contributor at center.

So, i will have no hope for this team, until I see us get a real center. End of story.

and all this david harrison potential is garbage to me. Anyone see his brief appearance on real world.

One quote "David just wants to get ****ed up."

NEWSFLASH, shut up

Naptown Seth
10-13-2005, 07:44 PM
Without Artest, the Pacers are no longer contenders, plain and simple. If Granger turns out to be as good as advertised, than Artest could possibly be moved, but that will take atleast 1 season, probably 2. I still think as soon as next year our starting lineup will be Tinsley/Granger/Artest/ONeal/Harrison with Jackson either ocming off the bench, backing up both the 2/3, or being traded.

Frank Slade
10-13-2005, 09:24 PM
WTH?


UB, I knew you just couldnt resist when you heard I might be getting my "hater" card this year.....

I dont condom what you are doing, but its good to see you are making positive strides...

:therock:

Kaufman
10-13-2005, 09:54 PM
Artest is the best player pound for pound on the Indiana Pacers. Maybe someone needs to get their head examined.

NorCal_Pacerfan
10-13-2005, 10:34 PM
Artest is the best player pound for pound on the Indiana Pacers. Maybe someone needs to get their head examined.

I'm with you on this one. Pacers need Artest. Period. End of Discussion.

Jermaniac
10-13-2005, 10:44 PM
Panic attack alert.

One game into the pre season and someone thinks we should trade Ron Artest for Jerome James or Adonal Foyle. Good grief! Not only are these guys probably permanent stiffs, but they are over paid and and have lousy contracts.

I'd say this thread is one that needs to be book marked for a Nostradamus check in a year. One way or other it ought to provide some serious laughs. Or a good cry.I agree when I read that it said Adonal Foyle and Jerome James, I went to the bathroom washed my face and came back to see if I was maybe going blind or something. Jeff Foster is 2 times the player both those bums are and you want to trade our 2nd best player for them. We could trade Pollard to the Warriors and they would give us Foyle.

Pacers need Ron Artest, Danny Granger is not ready to start in the NBA.

Hicks
10-13-2005, 10:45 PM
I'm with you on this one. Pacers need Artest. Period. End of Discussion.

That's the real problem here.

SoupIsGood
10-13-2005, 11:20 PM
Did UB really think about trading Ron for Foyle. I just refuse to believe that. This really must be the bizarro world.

SycamoreKen
10-13-2005, 11:32 PM
Artest is the best player pound for pound on the Indiana Pacers. Maybe someone needs to get their head examined.

Unfortunately that person may be Artest because, pound for pound, he is the most mentally unstable player On the Indiana Pacers.

If we are really going to be short bigs to start the season, we may have to become Phoenix-East. JO at C, Ron at PF, SJ at SF, Fred/Granger at SG, Tins at point. We do have some depth, so it could work.:shrug:

Pacers#1Fan
10-13-2005, 11:35 PM
We need Ron.

Hicks
10-13-2005, 11:37 PM
We need Ron.
That's a bad thing.

Pacers#1Fan
10-13-2005, 11:38 PM
That's a bad thing.I don't think so.

Unclebuck
10-13-2005, 11:53 PM
Did UB really think about trading Ron for Foyle. I just refuse to believe that. This really must be the bizarro world.



You need to read my post very carefully. Hell with that, who has time, but I never suggested that the Pacers should trade Artest and I never suggested the Pacers should trade Artest for Foyle. I was more or less raising questions and perhaps trying to come to terms with the whole Artest topic

ChicagoJ
10-14-2005, 09:45 AM
I don't think so.


You must enjoy watching a talented individual repeatedely wreck a damn good team. I don't. I'm a Pacers fan, and I'm sick of watching them implode on an annual basis.

They were good enough last year to just subtract this clown and make a competitive appearance in the second round.

Plug-in a player with offensive and defensive skills at SF (Granger), and trade the clown for some bulk to match up against Shaq.

I don't know where I've heard this before (:whistle: ) but I think its a great idea.

Harmonica
10-14-2005, 11:22 AM
I'm with you on this one. Pacers need Artest. Period. End of Discussion.

Are you guys just automatically programmed to say this? Allow me to take a look in my way-back machine: Yep, just as I remembered. Artest wasn't on the 2000 finals team. Hold on a second while I check something else out. Uh-huh, just as I thought. There's no Ron Artest on any of the teams that have won an NBA championship. Guess someone should have told them that they couldn't win a championship without Ron.

Unclebuck
10-14-2005, 11:27 AM
Are you guys just automatically programmed to say this? Allow me to take a look in my way-back machine: Yep, just as I remembered. Artest wasn't on the 2000 finals team. Hold on a second while I check something else out. Uh-huh, just as I thought. There's no Ron Artest on any of the teams that have won an NBA championship. Guess someone should have told them that they couldn't win a championship without Ron.



I'm so tired of this argument, sick and tired of it. While it has maybe some merit it really is not very logical. I'm not going to get into why it isn't very logical it has been done to death. But for those who want to trade Artest there are about 15 better reasons, many of which were included in my post starting thread. Why not pick a better reason

MagicRat
10-14-2005, 11:35 AM
I have no idea which arguemnt you're tired of.

Do you mean the arguemnt that the Pacers can't win a championship without him?

Or the arguemnt that history shows teams are capable of winning a championship without Ron Artest?

How about an arguement over how many e's are in arguement?

MagicRat
10-14-2005, 12:11 PM
Cool, quoting before I can edit.

I type fast, and don't pay much attention when it's for a message board. So shoot me.

Sorry. I always forget you're ESL.....

ChicagoJ
10-14-2005, 12:13 PM
Well, UB,

There are legion of Artest fans masquerading as Pacers fans that give the knee jerk reaction that bp was responding to. I'm not saying you belong to that category and I'm not saying NorCal does, either. But that type of knee-jerk reaction (we just can't win a championship without him, end of discussion) can spread like a wildfire if it is not contained and completely deserves the sarcastic knee-jerk reaction that bp uses.

Sorry, I've spent all week teaching our new hires that they have to come to work "with their brains turned on." Probably applies to some comments on here, too. Maybe I'm already tired and bitter after just one preseason game.

MagicRat
10-14-2005, 12:26 PM
Don't make fun of my English. I'll post an angry thread and leave the forum forever.

Is that a promise? You may have just opened the floodgates, my friend........:devil:

Frank Slade
10-14-2005, 12:30 PM
Nah, I wouldn't hold myself to that. I'm too real to just run away. My boys in the hood know I wouldn't represent like that.

Yeah that aint no Jonk on the real.:cool: ..

Harmonica
10-14-2005, 12:31 PM
There are legion of Artest fans masquerading as Pacers fans that give the knee jerk reaction that bp was responding to. I'm not saying you belong to that category and I'm not saying NorCal does, either. But that type of knee-jerk reaction (we just can't win a championship without him, end of discussion) can spread like a wildfire if it is not contained and completely deserves the sarcastic knee-jerk reaction that bp uses.

Thank you, Jay. Next time I'm in Indy for a game, I'm gonna spit on UB from the upper bowl.

Frank Slade
10-14-2005, 12:36 PM
Thank you, Jay. Next time I'm in Indy for a game, I'm gonna spit on UB from the upper bowl.

Upper Bowl... Lower Bowl... Where is the love for the Club level crew :confused: ....

What exactly is their takes on this....?

aceace
10-14-2005, 12:36 PM
You guys (& gals) will like this comaprison. Ron is kinda like Saddam H. in the 80s we needed him to do battle with Iran and the US supported him and it kept Iran & Iraq broke fighting with each other. Its the same with RA, if he becomes a distraction and Granger,Bender have great years. Say Runi is better then any of us could have ever imagined. We have no injuries. Its time to remove him, his usefullness is gone.

Suaveness
10-14-2005, 12:37 PM
Thank you, Jay. Next time I'm in Indy for a game, I'm gonna spit on UB from the upper bowl.


OOO I could do that, too. But I have nothing against UB. Should I still?

Unclebuck
10-14-2005, 12:40 PM
Fun to see Magicrat and Btown argue, have never seen that before.

Well of course the Pacers could win a championship without Artest. If the Pacers make a "perfect trade" of Artest maybe they could win a championship. But if you just lose Artest for nothing in return like we did last season then no that team is not going to win a championship. They'll have no chance.

Suaveness
10-14-2005, 12:41 PM
Well, UB,

There are legion of Artest fans masquerading as Pacers fans that give the knee jerk reaction that bp was responding to. I'm not saying you belong to that category and I'm not saying NorCal does, either. But that type of knee-jerk reaction (we just can't win a championship without him, end of discussion) can spread like a wildfire if it is not contained and completely deserves the sarcastic knee-jerk reaction that bp uses.

Sorry, I've spent all week teaching our new hires that they have to come to work "with their brains turned on." Probably applies to some comments on here, too. Maybe I'm already tired and bitter after just one preseason game.


The problem is everything is so polar. Either Ron has to be there to win, or there have been teams to win without him. Yes teams have won without him. But teams have won titles without Jordan, too. So you don't need Jordan to win. But maybe THIS team could win it easier if we had Artest than if we didn't. We don't know how this team would be without him, though we got a partial glimpse of that 2nd half last year. And maybe we could win without him. It is of my opinion, however, that we have a better chance of winning with him than without. That's all I say.

Edit: Unlike, as UB said, we got a trade of equal value. But that won't happen.

RWB
10-14-2005, 12:44 PM
OOO I could do that, too. But I have nothing against UB. Should I still?

Guess you've never set lower. Plexiglass covers the lower patrons so they don't have to worry about flying spit, vomit, and hurled projetiles. Did I ever mention I heard Evan Bayh say the refs blow? Yes, I think I did. Living in the suburb made him that way.

Suaveness
10-14-2005, 12:45 PM
Guess you've never set lower. Plexiglass covers the lower patrons so they don't have to worry about flying spit, vomit, and hurled projetiles. Did I ever mention I heard Evan Bayh say the refs blow? Yes, I think I did. Living in the suburb made him that way.

I'm what you call an undercover agent. I get close to my prey and strike. But then they kick me out for not having tickets.

ChicagoJ
10-14-2005, 12:56 PM
From Section 204 I could get UB with a pretty solid loogey.

Frank Slade
10-14-2005, 12:59 PM
From Section 204 I could get UB with a pretty solid loogey.

Where is the PacersDigest Gift Shop i need to Purchase my Pacers Rain Slicker and dew cap before tonight's game :-o

indygeezer
10-14-2005, 01:02 PM
Where is the PacersDigest Gift Shop i need to Purchase my Pacers Rain Slicker and dew cap before tonight's game :-o


ROFLMAO!!!


That's a gooder-un

ChicagoJ
10-14-2005, 01:08 PM
The problem is everything is so polar. Either Ron has to be there to win, or there have been teams to win without him. Yes teams have won without him. But teams have won titles without Jordan, too. So you don't need Jordan to win. But maybe THIS team could win it easier if we had Artest than if we didn't. We don't know how this team would be without him, though we got a partial glimpse of that 2nd half last year. And maybe we could win without him. It is of my opinion, however, that we have a better chance of winning with him than without. That's all I say.

Edit: Unlike, as UB said, we got a trade of equal value. But that won't happen.

Suave, buddy, there's a big difference between "we have a better chance of winning with him than without" - even if that's totally debatable - than the knee-jerk statement of "this team needs Ron Artest to win."

No - this team needs a starting caliber SF. Last year, when Ron quit on the team and then got suspended later, we didn't have one at all. Now we might, although yes he's an unproven-at-this-level rookie.

Its hardly polar to take a position that, "Yes, I've seen him play and agree that he's a damn good player, but because of his numerous and various disruptions the Pacers are still better off without that particular damn good player." That's not polar or knee-jerk, that's using my brain. You've used your brain. Gotten the wrong answer, but you've used your brain (:flirt: ). Now which is your position?

The point still is, several others declare that Ron is such a great player that the Pacers can't possibly hope to win without him. Some would go so far to say there is no "equal value" - not just that the Pacers can't get equal value in a trade but that they might not trade him for KG/ Duncan/ Shaq/ etc. That's weak.

ChicagoJ
10-14-2005, 01:09 PM
Where is the PacersDigest Gift Shop i need to Purchase my Pacers Rain Slicker and dew cap before tonight's game :-o

You're safe tonight. I'm stuck in Chicago.

Suaveness
10-14-2005, 01:20 PM
Suave, buddy, there's a big difference between "we have a better chance of winning with him than without" - even if that's totally debatable - than the knee-jerk statement of "this team needs Ron Artest to win."

No - this team needs a starting caliber SF. Last year, when Ron quit on the team and then got suspended later, we didn't have one at all. Now we might, although yes he's an unproven-at-this-level rookie.

Its hardly polar to take a position that, "Yes, I've seen him play and agree that he's a damn good player, but because of his numerous and various disruptions the Pacers are still better off without that particular damn good player." That's not polar or knee-jerk, that's using my brain. You've used your brain. Gotten the wrong answer, but you've used your brain (:flirt: ). Now which is your position?

The point still is, several others declare that Ron is such a great player that the Pacers can't possibly hope to win without him. Some would go so far to say there is no "equal value" - not just that the Pacers can't get equal value in a trade but that they might not trade him for KG/ Duncan/ Shaq/ etc. That's weak.


What you state as your position of Ron being disruptive is fine, and I have no problem with that. In fact, I would agree with you on certain points, that he has been a distraction, etc. And no, we don't NEED him to win, but that would be under the circumstances that a) Granger can be the starting SF, and a good one at that, and b) we can get SOME value from a trade of Ron. Those two right now are very much unknown.

But the thing is, we aren't going to get value from him, and I still say that we are better off with him. He has been a distraction, but I think they can still co-exist to win a title.

Harmonica
10-14-2005, 02:09 PM
By the way, can someone please explain the whole upper bowl/lower bowl logic to me. If I understand correctly, upper bowl dwellers are white-trash NASCAR-lovin' hillbillies and therefore hate Ron because of their narrow-minded racist tendencies? Whereas lower bowl dwellers are broad-minded cultural sophisticates who are empathetic to the whole hip-hop thug life thing and are therefore more likely to support Ron? Is that it?

ChicagoJ
10-14-2005, 02:11 PM
By the way, can someone please explain the whole upper bowl/lower bowl logic to me. If I understand correctly, upper bowl dwellers are racist white-trash NASCAR-lovin' hillbillies, while lower bowl dwellers are broad-minded cultural sophisticates open to all things hip-hop and ghetto? Is that it?


Yeah, that's pretty much what Sass said over at RATS.

Learn something new every day, I guess.

MagicRat
10-14-2005, 02:24 PM
By the way, can someone please explain the whole upper bowl/lower bowl logic to me. If I understand correctly, upper bowl dwellers are racist white-trash NASCAR-lovin' hillbillies and therefore hate Ron because of their narrow-minded racist tendencies, whereas lower bowl dwellers are broad-minded cultural sophisticates open to the hip-hop thug life and are therefore more likely to understand and support Ron? Is that it?

And since all of the country music lovers are relegated to the balcony, you and your Johnny Cash avatar won't be allowed to sit where you did last year.....although I do think you could hit UB from there.....Maybe we can sneak you down low as a spy.......

Unclebuck
10-14-2005, 02:27 PM
By the way, can someone please explain the whole upper bowl/lower bowl logic to me. If I understand correctly, upper bowl dwellers are racist white-trash NASCAR-lovin' hillbillies and therefore hate Ron because of their narrow-minded racist tendencies, whereas lower bowl dwellers are broad-minded cultural sophisticates open to the hip-hop thug life and are therefore more likely to understand and support Ron? Is that it?



That is a very good explanation of the theory.

I've sat in every seat in the Fieldhouse for at least one game and I've found that theory to be very, very true. The interesting thing is the lower suites are populated by the enlightened, while the upper suites are all white trash. How they were able to do that I'll never know, but the Pacers sure know how to fill a fieldhouse.

The club seats are actually a mixture of the two different types of people and it's like a war zone in there

Frank Slade
10-14-2005, 02:36 PM
Thanks UB for the clarification,,

Also only replica's are allowed in the upper bowl.

Swingman Jerseys =club level.

Authentics lower level of course...;)

Funny how that works out...

RWB
10-14-2005, 02:48 PM
http://ooglesngoogles.com/indianapolis.asp

Of course only those in the lower bowl are allowed to even consider doing something like this. What is an Oogle anyway?

Frank Slade
10-14-2005, 02:53 PM
http://ooglesngoogles.com/indianapolis.asp

Of course only those in the lower bowl are allowed to even consider doing something like this. What is an Oogle anyway?


Lol I heard of a few people that do these parties.

An Oogle is just a google that has not achieved his or her "G" status yet..

BillS
10-14-2005, 02:53 PM
Wow. Did you know that this also conclusively disproves the theory about bad acoustics at Conseco? If the racists all sit in the balcony, and players on opposing teams can head racist remarks directed by individuals specifically at them, the acoustics must be fantastic.

Oh, and I'm using the Pelenor Gambit to move from Victoria Station to Embankment.

RWB
10-14-2005, 03:02 PM
http://www.outsports.com/ballin/112000.htm

http://www.outsports.com/columns/index.htm

Interesting site..... Not sure how people will react to this..........WARNING....for some folks they may not want to go there........Basically a gay writer who's favorite team is the Pacers....Does write a good column....

DisplacedKnick
10-14-2005, 03:06 PM
That is a very good explanation of the theory.

I've sat in every seat in the Fieldhouse for at least one game and I've found that theory to be very, very true. The interesting thing is the lower suites are populated by the enlightened, while the upper suites are all white trash. How they were able to do that I'll never know, but the Pacers sure know how to fill a fieldhouse.

The club seats are actually a mixture of the two different types of people and it's like a war zone in there

That explains all the abuse I used to take during Knick-Pacer playoff games in MSA. It wasn't because I was wearing my #33 PE jersey. Those people were just too ignorant and narrow-minded to welcome me with open arms, no matter what team I cheered for. I can now forgive them for being spit on and having beer dumped on me.

But, uh, what about the guy last April 10 I was next to in row 16 center-court (tix at home so I can't give you the section - opposite player benches). Did the Pacers have some misguided ticket giveaway where an upper-deck fella was erroneously placed in the lower level?

(Sob) At least the security girl was nice to me. (sniff)

BTW - had club level for Game 3 vs Detroit - had an absolute BLAST at that one. Of course they gave away Pacer T-shirts and (glances furtively around for any Knick fans watching) I actually put it on.

indygeezer
10-14-2005, 03:43 PM
That explains all the abuse I used to take during Knick-Pacer playoff games in MSA. It wasn't because I was wearing my #33 PE jersey. Those people were just too ignorant and narrow-minded to welcome me with open arms, no matter what team I cheered for. I can now forgive them for being spit on and having beer dumped on me.

But, uh, what about the guy last April 10 I was next to in row 16 center-court (tix at home so I can't give you the section - opposite player benches). Did the Pacers have some misguided ticket giveaway where an upper-deck fella was erroneously placed in the lower level?

(Sob) At least the security girl was nice to me. (sniff)

BTW - had club level for Game 3 vs Detroit - had an absolute BLAST at that one. Of course they gave away Pacer T-shirts and (glances furtively around for any Knick fans watching) I actually put it on.


I remember a 2 day period last year where you actually came out of the closet and into the light, but then you retreated and have gone back to your old Rimfire ways.

Such a pity that.

RWB
10-14-2005, 03:47 PM
I remember a 2 day period last year where you actually came out of the closet and into the light,

Oh Geez that's too funny. See my post (or not) about the gay writer (Pacer fan) above. :laugh:

BlueNGold
10-14-2005, 11:15 PM
That is a very good explanation of the theory.

I've sat in every seat in the Fieldhouse for at least one game and I've found that theory to be very, very true. The interesting thing is the lower suites are populated by the enlightened, while the upper suites are all white trash. How they were able to do that I'll never know, but the Pacers sure know how to fill a fieldhouse.

The club seats are actually a mixture of the two different types of people and it's like a war zone in there

So, UB...are you white trash or sophisticated? Since you sit everywhere, I am confused on that point. ;)

Harmonica
10-14-2005, 11:19 PM
So, UB...are you white trash or sophisticated? Since you sit everywhere, I am confused on that point. ;)

If I recall correctly, UB doesn't sit everywhere. He's a lower bowl dweller, so you know he's a hip, urbane, sophisticated Ron supporter.

DisplacedKnick
10-14-2005, 11:21 PM
So, UB...are you white trash or sophisticated? Since you sit everywhere, I am confused on that point. ;)

See he's changed. You know him as Unclebuck.

When he first started posting his username was D. Reginald Westerson.

The Third.

Esquire and Peer of the Realm.

Then Grace spit on him and he moved his seats.

sixthman
10-15-2005, 11:00 AM
You guys (& gals) will like this comaprison. Ron is kinda like Saddam H. in the 80s we needed him to do battle with Iran and the US supported him and it kept Iran & Iraq broke fighting with each other. Its the same with RA, if he becomes a distraction and Granger,Bender have great years. Say Runi is better then any of us could have ever imagined. We have no injuries. Its time to remove him, his usefullness is gone.

Thanks for the analogy, Guido.

beast23
10-15-2005, 11:20 AM
The interesting thing is the lower suites are populated by the enlightened, while the upper suites are all white trash. Damn, UB. Just because our mayor and governor are now classified as white trash, you didn't have to wipe me out at the same time, did you?

Bball
10-15-2005, 12:15 PM
BTW... I saw Rik Smits sitting in the upper level at a game last season...

White trash....


-Bball

Unclebuck
12-22-2005, 10:14 AM
This is all very interesting to read now

Shade
12-22-2005, 03:52 PM
This is all very interesting to read now

I hope you're right, UB.

Unclebuck
05-22-2006, 11:52 PM
Here Jerm.


Edit: some of these old threads are great. I forgot about the lower bowl vs balcony discussions - classics

Jermaniac
05-23-2006, 12:02 AM
You thought about it, I bet if I asked you during that time if you would trade Ron for James or Foyle you would have said yes, since well we didnt need Ron anymore.