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View Full Version : How man big leads has Johnson pissed away so far this year?



Ragnar
01-20-2004, 08:14 PM
How many of you believe that if Tins came in and pissed away 14 point leads on a regular basis he would ever see the floor?

Why is Johnson different? I really want to know.

Unclebuck
01-20-2004, 09:38 PM
How many of you believe that if Tins came in and pissed away 14 point leads on a regular basis he would ever see the floor?

Why is Johnson different? I really want to know.

What are you talking about. You said this same thing last night and I am really confused.

Is AJ the only player on the floor?

Ragnar
01-20-2004, 09:39 PM
You realize he won on the floor with Reggie, Jermaine, Al and Pollard durring that right?

I can see blaming Pollard a bit but the other three?

Unclebuck
01-20-2004, 09:46 PM
You are talking about the second quarter and yes AJ was oln the floor because Tinsley had three fouls. AJ did not play that well, but I don't understand why you are blaming him, why are you pointing him out. Do you want Tinsley to play 48 minutes. Do you want Brewer to get all of AJ's minutes.

Hicks
01-20-2004, 09:48 PM
This AJ blaming is getting ridiculous. Are you even watching these games?

wintermute
01-21-2004, 01:45 AM
the plus-minus statistics bear this out.

over the past five games, according to pacers.com, aj's +/- stats have looked like this:

pistons -5 (+6.0)
hawks -2 (+1.4)
nets -2 (+3.0)
spurs +5 (+4.7)
hawks -9 (+3.5)

the number in parentheses is the team average (+/-) for that game.

the spurs game seems to be the only one where aj was effective. the theory seems to be that tinsley builds up the leads, while aj protects them. however, aj doesn't seem to have done much protecting lately.

yes, i would like to see brewer more. he's a good deal better at defense than any of the guards other than freddie. and at this point he can't hurt us much more than aj does. put aj in at end game situations only, if needed.

actually, i think aj would best serve us as backup sg. but then, what do i know.

Anthem
01-21-2004, 02:10 AM
If only Brewer had a shot...

If only Jones had a shot...

If only Foster had a shot...

I sense a theme.

waxman
01-21-2004, 12:49 PM
i like what AJ can bring to the game... I like the fact that the backup point guard is a tough defender, and a leader.... But I can't help but notice that the Pacers offense comes to an almost complete stand-still when he comes in the game...especially the first half.

He obviously isn't a natural point guard ... when Tinsley is in the game... it comes very natural for him to set up his defender to make it easier for entry passes, high post passes and passes to the wing that initiate the offense.

Ball handling ability also plays into this equation. AJ doesn't have near the dribbling skills that Jamal has especially with the left hand. Which I think causes AJ to think about not turning over the ball over instead of getting into the offense properly and with the right timing.

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 02:51 PM
I have a minor confession to make here. Several games back I *****ed about AJ durring hlftime only to have him perform way way better in the second half. So whenever he blows it I ***** hoping he will make me eat my words by the end of the game.

That being said UB if you cant see that AJ routinley blows leads in the first half that Tinsley has had a hand in then you are way too biased in favor of AJ. Yes there are other people on the floor. He blew that lead when Jermaine, Harrington, Fred/Reggie, and Pollard.

Who are you blaming if not AJ? was it Jermaine? Harrington? Reggie? Freddie? Pollard? Heck I think Pollard is playing his best basketball right now since the trade. Fred Jones and Reggie both play better with Tins on the court and I would think Jermaine and Al do fine either way.

AJ is consistently(sp?) being beat off the dribble by other pg's. Did you not see him having to reach arround Chauncy from behind after being burned by him? I want to see what Kenny can do as a backup I think he is more of a natural pg than AJ so thats where I want his minutes to go.

I would think AJ could play backup shooting guard because he can shoot and I am sure his shot would also benefit from playing with a "real" pg.

I would like to see Brewer more because IMO he is a better defender than Johnson. Yes he needs to learn ball controll to get more minutes but I would rather have a couple of turnovers that lead to nothing because of his good D than AJ in there and give up a 15 point lead in 4 minutes.

In the game that even Rick could not stomach AJ's play and he put Brewer in for a couple of minutes did you notice that the run the other team was on stopped?

Anyway I am ranting. Lets see what Kenny can bring to the table as a backup and yes for God's sake play Tins more than 28 minutes a game. How about 35 would that be too much to ask.

MagicRat
01-21-2004, 03:56 PM
Is AJ the only player on the floor?

If only someone would provide 5 man +/- stats we could figure this thing out.......

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 03:59 PM
Clearly AJ and Pollard are a deadly combo for any lead the Pacers have. I am not sure who to blame the most. But Pollard did a good defensive job on Ben (at least for that one play where he forced him into a travel)

Hicks
01-21-2004, 04:11 PM
Why is there such a need to blame somebody? Maybe it's just a coincidence. Because when I watch the games, I rarely feel that AJ or even Pollard is blowing it for us.

Unclebuck
01-21-2004, 04:21 PM
Ragnar, I suppose I could watch the next game with pen in hand and keep a running tally of each good and bad thing Tinsley does and AJ does.

AJ hit a huge three in the 4th quarter of the Spurs game last week and he hit another one in the 4th quarter of the Hawks game. And Tinsley hit an even bigger one in the Hawks game later in the 4th quarter.

My point is they both have done some very nice things and both have done some things that aren't so great.

I have said over and over again that Tinsley should start and should play around 30 minutes per game

I think I am the one who is being more objective here

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 04:26 PM
Just a coincidence that every single time he takes over the Pacers have a double digit lead and by the time Tins comes back in the lead is gone?

I am not just talking one game here I am talking the last 8 or 9.

As a fan I hate it when my team lets the other team back into the game and it ends up being closer than it needs to be.

In the Dallas game we went down 16-2 Tins came in (there were no other changes) and we tied up the game soon afterwards. Coincidence?

Spurs game we have the lead AJ comes in we go down 10

Pistons up 14 when he came in up 4 when Tins came back.

So on and so forth how can this be a coincidence. Plus dont forget the NJ game where Tins did not play until the Nets were up 15 with 4 minutes to play and he came in and got us to within 2. AJ helped dig us into that mess.

Is it a coincidence that we were playing .500 ball right before Tins came back and we have only lost one game since then? Is it a coincidence that the Pacers are scoring an extra 10 points a game with Tins as the starter.

Do you realize how big it is for a team to go up by 10 points a game.

I know AJ is well liked but IMO he is the week link in the rotation (him and Pollard)

I would just like to see how much better we do with either Kenny or Brewer as the Backup and give Cro Pollards minutes. Cro came in and scored 6 points in 2 minutes and sat the rest of the game.

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 04:30 PM
Ragnar, I suppose I could watch the next game with pen in hand and keep a running tally of each good and bad thing Tinsley does and AJ does.

AJ hit a huge three in the 4th quarter of the Spurs game last week and he hit another one in the 4th quarter of the Hawks game. And Tinsley hit an even bigger one in the Hawks game later in the 4th quarter.

My point is they both have done some very nice things and both have done some things that aren't so great.

I have said over and over again that Tinsley should start and should play around 30 minutes per game

I think I am the one who is being more objective here


I would like to see Tins play 35 minutes a game.

You say I am not being objective but look at the plus minus. AJ's is horrid. I know it is just a stat but I watch the games I know you do as well.

Next game look at the score when AJ comes in and when he sits down. I am not talking about individual mistakes. He simply does not get the ball to the other guys in rythem like Tins or even Anderson does. Somehow I dont think you count that as a mistake I do.

Count the 24 second violations thats another one that drives me crazy. Or the number of times they throw a zone at us the second he comes into the game.

Hicks
01-21-2004, 04:33 PM
I think the individual +/- stat is horrid. After all, if AJ was really at fault, that means if he blows a 10 pt lead when JO's on the court, JO get's -10, too. So it's a skewed stat in my eyes.

The only +/- I'll pay any attention to is the 5-man one.

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 04:38 PM
Thats kind of my point. It has to be AJ because we know it is not Jermaine, Reggie, or Al. It could be Pollard but he looses the lead even when Pollard is not playing.


I dont mean to go off on a tangent about this but this is IMO our biggest weakness. I imagine Tins will play more minutes a game in the playoffs. Or Kenny will be the backup and he played great in the playoffs for the Celts where AJ was non existant for the Nets.

zxc
01-21-2004, 04:40 PM
Think you are way too hard on the guy. Though he has been a bit off since he had that stomach injury. I remember him coming up big for us this year alot more than I remember him blowing leads. We have only lost 11 games this year. He can't be hurting us that much.

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 04:43 PM
10 of those losses were when he was finishing games. So with him playing a bigger role we were 20-10

Suaveness
01-21-2004, 04:57 PM
Why are we even talking about this? We are winning and playing well, and EVERYONE is. I see nothing wrong with AJ's game.

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 05:03 PM
I posted the thread at halftime last night when AJ had blown most of the 14 point lead while he was in there.

Suaveness
01-21-2004, 05:06 PM
So its old news then?

7-Layer Burrito
01-21-2004, 05:08 PM
I tend to agree with Ragnar on this topic. Maybe not to the same extreme, but I have noticed the same pattern when AJ is in the game.

I wouldn't mind seeing Tins getting 30mpg, and being backed up by a Kenny/Brewer combo. Also wouldn't mind seeing AJ getting spot minutes at backup SG w/ Freddie, as the matchups dictate.

naptownmenace
01-21-2004, 05:14 PM
If pressured, AJ has a hard time getting the ball up the court. As a result, the Pacers' offense slows down quite a bit. Plus he's not shooting the ball as well as at the start of the season.

All of those things do seem to be a factor in the Pacers 2nd quarter swoons we've been seeing recently.

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 07:58 PM
So its old news then?


Not so much old but it was a lot fresher at halftime. We won so it does not really matter but if you will all remember there were at least a few people who were nervous about the Pistons late run in the 2nd quarter.

able
01-21-2004, 10:12 PM
"Tien" as they say in France, that is a bols statement, and i read during halftime, never expected it to turn into this kind of a post :) but then again, perhaps it deserves the attention.

In all honesty i must agree with the conclusion that AJ loses us more points when running the point then he wins, the +/- stats ARE per 5 but given individually per the time on the floor, yes the others loose those on their +/- but make up for it in the time on the floor that they get ahead (again).

Ok, why was Cro pulled? simple, he scored 6 but let 10 through, he was non-existent on defense (one topic touched in this thread).

Does AJ's defense match Tins' ? no, does his "dishing" match Tins' ? no.

he does what he can, but he remains a combo and not a specific PG for specific minutes, he can do the job 5 or 10 a game, but it is obvious that more is a burden, not only on him but also the team, they loose a rythm, even AJ plays better with Tins on the floor (though that was rararity :laugh: )

Now if KA comes back and shows he CAN run the offense and defend adequately when Tins is off, then as i suggested long before today, we can have AJ fit in behind Reg for offensive purposes, Fred will remain the #1 replacement choice i fear in case of wanted defense. and despite the fact that i would like to see Brewer get some more minutes as well, he will be IRL bound once KA comes back, unless JB returns there, which i doubt, or Cro goes there which i also doubt.

AJ will most likely score much more and feel far more comfortable behind uncle Reg, certainly if Tins runs a play or two for him and can be a real threat, he has the shot, but most of the ones he makes (few) are taken when time ran out in horrible position.

His shotclock violations are indeed worrysome, to many times (3 times in a row almost against the Nets, or was it Spurs, can't recall clearly, but it was in short order, that i DO remember).

He did have a great second half against the Spurs, and certainly his shooting was perfectly timed in that game, but again, as SG he could probably be far more dangerous and less a liability on defense, somehow with Reg there we "expect" less defense on that position anyway :)


hey just my opinion, not "law"


:stupid:

Ragnar
01-21-2004, 10:43 PM
i would like to see Brewer get some more minutes as well, he will be IRL bound once KA comes back, unless JB returns there, which i doubt, or Cro goes there which i also doubt:stupid:

IRL why would they send him to the Idiot racing league?


Just Kidding :pepper: