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McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 08:36 PM
There is a LOT to choose from:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050814/ts_afp/uspopulationdetroit_050814210312
Shrinking Detroit has 12,000 abandoned homes

Sun Aug 14, 5:03 PM ET

DETROIT, United States (AFP) - Rats or lead poisoning. When it comes to the threats from the broken down house next door, Dorothy Bates isn't sure which is worse.


"When it's lightening and thundering you can hear the bricks just falling," the 40-year-old nurse said as she looked at the smashed windows and garbage-strewn porch. "If you call and ask (the city) about it they say they don't have the funds to tear it down."

There are more than 12,000 abandoned homes in the Detroit area, a byproduct of decades of layoffs at the city's auto plants and white flight to the suburbs. And despite scores of attempts by government and civic leaders to set the city straight, the automobile capitol of the world seems trapped in a vicious cycle of urban decay.

Detroit has lost more than half its population since its heyday in the 1950's. The people who remain are mostly black -- 83 percent -- and mostly working class, with 30 percent of the population living below the poverty line according to the US
Census Bureau.

The schools are bad. The roads are full of potholes. Crime is high and so are taxes. The city is in a budget crisis so deep it could end up being run by the state.

And it just got knocked off the list of the nation's ten largest cities.

"Detroit has become an icon of what's considered urban decline," said June Thomas, a professor of urban and regional planning at Michigan State University.

"The issue is not just getting people in the city. It's getting people in the city who can become property owners and stay property owners and pay taxes."

Perhaps the biggest challenge to luring the middle class from the area's swank suburbs is overcoming racial tensions, said Stephen Vogel, dean of the school of architecture at University of Detroit Mercy.

"Suburbanites are taking the bodies of their relatives out of cemeteries because they're afraid to come to the city," Vogel said. "There are about 400 to 500 hundred (being moved) a year which shows you the depth of racism and fear."

Most American cities have experienced a shift towards the suburbs.

What made Detroit's experience so stark was the lack of regional planning and the ease with which developments were able to incorporate into new cities in order to avoid sharing their tax revenue with the city, said Margaret Dewar, a professor of urban and regional planning at the University of Michigan.

The fleeing businesses and homeowners left behind about 36 square miles (58 square kilometers) of vacant land. That's roughly the size of San Francisco and about a quarter of Detroit's total land mass.

While a decision by General Motors to build its new headquarters smack in the middle of downtown has helped lure young professionals and spark redevelopment in some of the more desirable neighborhoods, there is little hope the vacant land will be filled any time soon.

In his state of the city address, embattled mayor Kwame Kilpatrick said even if 10,000 new homes were built every year for the next 15 years "we wouldn't fill up our city."

And Detroit is still losing about 10,000 people every year.

One solution Vogel has proposed is to turn swaths of the city into farmland. In the four years since his students initiated a pilot project dozens of community gardens and small farms have popped up.

But first the city has to get rid of the crumbling buildings that haunt the streets, luring criminals, arsonists and wild animals and creating a general sense of hopelessness.

"It's partly a resource issue and it's partly a bureaucracy issue," said Eric Dueweke, the community partnership manager at the University of Michigan's College of Architecture and Urban Planning.

"It takes them forever to find the proper owners of the properties and serve them with the proper paperwork," he said. "They're tearing them down at the rate of 1,500 or 2,000 a year, so they're really not cutting into the backlog in any significant way because that's how many are coming on stream."

Dorothy Bates has been waiting three years for the crumbling house next door to be torn down. There are nine more on her short block along with several vacant lots that are overgrown with weeds.

Bates does her best to keep her five children away from the rat nests, but the lead creeping out of crumbling bricks and peeling paint drifts in through her windows.

The most frustrating part of it, says her neighbor Larry, is that so many of the abandoned houses could be repaired. The foundations are solid. The buildings are beautiful. Or at least, they were once.

foretaz
08-17-2005, 08:38 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ur bad

Shade
08-17-2005, 08:42 PM
:tongue:

Shade
08-17-2005, 08:45 PM
The schools are bad. The roads are full of potholes. Crime is high and so are taxes. The city is in a budget crisis so deep it could end up being run by the state.

Maybe we can argue with Dale that, if Detroit offers him more $$$, he'll have to pay more in taxes, so it really wouldn't be worth his while. :innocent:

Btw, I guess Spree isn't too concerned about crime and potholes, as long as he has enough $$$ to feed his family. :innocent:

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 08:47 PM
Pistons = 3 World Championships

Pacers = 0 World Championships


jackass.

SjA3837
08-17-2005, 08:49 PM
Pistons = 3 World Championships

Pacers = 0 World Championships


jackass.
And that has what to do with the condition of the city?

McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 08:49 PM
Maybe we can argue with Dale that, if Detroit offers him more $$$, he'll have to pay more in taxes, so it really wouldn't be worth his while. :innocent:

Btw, I guess Spree isn't too concerned about crime and potholes, as long as he has enough $$$ to feed his family. :innocent:

The article would suggest that every member of both of their extended family's could get a fixer upper of their own on a dime.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 08:50 PM
Pistons = 3 World Championships

Pacers = 0 World Championships


jackass.

And that proves what regarding the article?

SjA3837
08-17-2005, 08:51 PM
And that proves what regarding the article?
:cheering:

McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 08:52 PM
Pistons = 3 World Championships

Pacers = 0 World Championships


jackass.

Correction. Pacer's=3 Championships plus no urban blight
Piston's=3 Championships plus worst urban blight in U.S.

Kstat
08-17-2005, 08:52 PM
since this thread is obvious provokative shout box meterial anyway, I don't see how he was out of line.

I mean, if we want to be toddlers and insult each other's homes, we can do that. But that's never been what PD was about.

Personally, I think it takes a real lack of character to post this here and not on the shout box, wher eit obviously belongs.

Shade
08-17-2005, 08:52 PM
Pistons = 3 NBA World Championships

Pacers = 3 ABA World Championships


jackass.

Fixed. :tongue:

Shade
08-17-2005, 08:54 PM
since this thread is obvious provokative shout box meterial anyway, I don't see how he was out of line.

I agree that it belongs in the Shout Box, so it's on it's way there.

I'll be watching this closely.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 08:54 PM
since this thread is obvious provokative shout box meterial anyway, I don't see how he was out of line.

When will you learn that responding with equal or greater offense because of a previous offense is NOT justification for anything.

Kstat
08-17-2005, 08:55 PM
When will you learn that responding with equal or greater offense because of a previous offense is NOT justification for anything.

No, but I didn't see anybody else doing something about it.

Not really my way, but some people fight fire with fire.

Shade
08-17-2005, 08:58 PM
No, but I didn't see anybody else doing something about it.

Not really my way, but some people fight fire with fire.

Do what?

If you have issue with the article, take it up with the article's writer.

I'm sure if there were a similar article about Indiana, it would be posted here as well.

Kstat
08-17-2005, 09:00 PM
Do what?

If you have issue with the article, take it up with the article's writer.

I'm sure if there were a similar article about Indiana, it would be posted here as well.


Well, Hicks made the point that what he posted was wrong, for some reason. I guess cause it was meant to be insulting.

Yet nobody seemed to take issue with the insulting premise of this thread, until BabbleOn decided to fight fire with fire. If you're not going to critisize the first insult, don't critisize the second one.

And Shade, while you are correct that a thread denigrating Indiana would also have been moved here, you have to admit that someone that started such a thread in the main forum would probably have been seriously warned at best. There's no other point for a thread like this other than to irritate other people. I fully realize this is an Indiana forum at heart, just trying to explain to you why BabbleOn's reaction should have been expected.

Either way, I don't like making fun of other people's homes. It's by far the easiest way to start a fight that neither side is going to win.

Shade
08-17-2005, 09:07 PM
Personally, I thought it was a light-hearted poke more than anything, but since nothing more good can come from this, and it's obviously struck a nerve with our resident Detroiters, I'm gonna close it.

Unless Dale signs with Detroit. Then it's free game. :devil: ;)

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 09:21 PM
Listen, I can laugh off a lot of things. But I'm tired of the Detroit punchline. I'm tired of people punching below the belt, people who don't understand/don't care about the complexities of the Detroit Metro area. It's not some fictional place that we can all make fun of together, and it's not a past time like basketball. Detroit is home to a lot of people, and it means a lot to many of those who live around it. I lot of people love it, many others hate it. We're all effected by what happens there.

Sometimes I hate Detroit. I'm sick to my stomach when I see the blight, homeless, trash, etc, or when I hear about the budget problems and the school problems. But that's just the thing: these problems are real, and real people are affected by them every day around here. It's not a g-damn joke for a Pacers chat forum.

So hate the Pistons because they've been better than the Pacers, and hate them for [possibly] signing D. Davis, and hate them for the brawl. But leave the g-damn city out of your basketball discussion, please.

Detroit is also wonderful, rich with history and culture. If people continue to perpetuate only the bad, then Detroit will never fully recover. Because who wants to visit, work or live in a wretched city?

I'm sorry. I can laugh at myself, usually. And I can laugh about Detroit. Just not in this situation.

denyfizle
08-17-2005, 09:31 PM
Yes that previous thread was tasteless even if it was meant to be a lighthearted joke. But that thread has already been closed so I guess we all learned a valuable lesson today. It's ok to insult a state if it pokes fun on rednecks and corn but once you mention rats, boy you're in trouble! I guess one should assume they expect hicks to be less sensitive. :sarcasm: I am noticing a trend. Why are Pistons fans so hypersensitive? This is how beer cups get tossed. Laugh it off, if you can't, then just leave it alone. Lighten up, it's more about the intent not the content. The poster elxplained his side already.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 09:37 PM
I don't think it's fair to McClinctic Sphere to outright close it, so I'm going to re-open it; he didn't mean it the way it's being taken; it was as Shade said a light poke at best, and then a fit was thrown in retaliation. That's why I called out the "2nd", not the "1st" offense. The first was interpretted that way when it wasn't meant to be, the second was obvious.

McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 09:38 PM
Listen, I can laugh off a lot of things. But I'm tired of the Detroit punchline.
I'm sorry. I can laugh at myself, usually. And I can laugh about Detroit. Just not in this situation.

You do realize that you are on the Pacer's Digest forum however, whereby the article might be taken as a light hearted shot at our bitter rival. Hey, I didn't make up this article to insult anyone. It is a legitimate piece of journalism which I tied in with the prospect of Dale leaving in the middle of the most dead part of the offseason. If I went on to a Freep.com board or whatever the main Piston unmonitored forum is and posted this, then I think you would have a much more sympathetic complaint. I thought maybe Pacer's fans who come here to discuss Pacer's related topics might get some odd enjoyment out of it plus it was genuinely informative and well written. I didn't pick on any individual or try to provoke a pissing match, so lighten up.

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 09:44 PM
You do realize that you are on the Pacer's Digest forum however, whereby the article might be taken as a light hearted shot at our bitter rival. Hey, I didn't make up this article to insult anyone. It is a legitimate piece of journalism which I tied in with the prospect of Dale leaving in the middle of the most dead part of the offseason. If I went on to a Freep.com board or whatever the main Piston unmonitored forum is and posted this, then I think you would have a much more sympathetic complaint. I thought maybe Pacer's fans who come here to discuss Pacer's related topics might get some odd enjoyment out of it plus it was genuinely informative and well written. I didn't pick on any individual or try to provoke a pissing match, so lighten up.

Sorry I messed your joke up.

Pacers#1Fan
08-17-2005, 09:45 PM
Pistons = 3 World Championships

Pacers = 0 World Championships


jackass.
Do you realy want to start another argument about Pacers and Detriot on a Pacers website. Detriot is one of the worst cities in the U.S.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 09:48 PM
I think what the Pistons fans here need to keep in mind, is that while this is an NBA site, it's 2nd to being a Pacers site, and like it or not Pacers fans can make more of these kinds of posts and get away with it than an outsider can because this is our home, not yours, speaking in terms of who we root for and what this site was built for. I try hard to keep it welcoming to all who want to talk, but at the end of the day the Indiana fans are going to get some privilages in ways outsiders can't, because it's a shrine for the Pacers 1st before being a general NBA talk board. So while I'm not gonna let it sink to anything ridiculous, a Pacer fan is going to be allowed to make some light or modest jabs that a fan of another team won't because we are Pacers-biased.

McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 09:58 PM
Sorry I messed your joke up.

Hey, it's no big deal. Sorry I offended you. You seem pretty cool. Regarding this tidbit from the article: "One solution Vogel has proposed is to turn swaths of the city into farmland." See, Indy and Detroit could end up having very much in common.

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 10:00 PM
Whatever. This bores me.

I made my point. Detroit is awesome AND we win more NBA champions. I win, you all lose. Booyah!!

Kstat
08-17-2005, 10:01 PM
I don't think it's fair to McClinctic Sphere to outright close it, so I'm going to re-open it; he didn't mean it the way it's being taken; it was as Shade said a light poke at best, and then a fit was thrown in retaliation.

Hicks, that statement is so one-sided biased I don't know where to begin.

Let's have someone post a KKK thread or the general average IQ of Indiana's population and see how "funny" you think it is.....I assure you both are plentiful.

In no way is it a light-hearted comment when you decide to dedicate a thread to bashing someone's home. Furthermore, you unlocking this thread was an act of sheer lunacy. If your intent is to have a 10-page flame war, you're on the right track.


a Pacer fan is going to be allowed to make some light or modest jabs that a fan of another team won't because we are Pacers-biased.

That's another thing I never thought I'd hear you say.

The rules should apply EQUALLY to EVERYONE. That's the way it's always been here. Nobody should have their hands tied simply out of team affiliation.

What people generally will and will not accept is one thing, and I accept that. However, the rules shouldn't be biased as well.

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 10:02 PM
Hey, it's no big deal. Sorry I offended you. You seem pretty cool. Regarding this tidbit from the article: "One solution Vogel has proposed is to turn swaths of the city into farmland." See, Indy and Detroit could end up having very much in common.

Oops. I meant to say you're nice, too, and this was all just a big misunderstanding. Detroit AND Indy rule the world together!!

denyfizle
08-17-2005, 10:08 PM
Hicks, that statement is so one-sided biased I don't know where to begin.

Let's have someone post a KKK thread or the general average IQ of Indiana's population and see how "funny" you think it is.....I assure you both are plentiful.

In no way is it a light-hearted comment when you decide to dedicate a thread to bashing someone's home. Furthermore, you unlocking this thread was an act of sheer lunacy. If your intent is to have a 10-page flame war, you're on the right track.


tsk tsk tsk..:shakehead

breathe in...

exhale.

read the apologies and the explanation of the poster.

breathe in...

exhale.

stop being a baby, nobody is intentionally invoking animosity, let alone a war. so let it go papa smurf and we can all moooh vaugh. it's only painful if you choose to suffer. actually before your last post it's starting to turn into a tearjerker :cry: ooohh the drama. it's always a spectacle to see 2 grown men kiss and make up in front of the viewing public.:brilliant I wish Kobez and Shaq would just do the same.

McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 10:18 PM
Hicks, that statement is so one-sided biased I don't know where to begin.

Let's have someone post a KKK thread or the general average IQ of Indiana's population and see how "funny" you think it is.....I assure you both are plentiful.

In no way is it a light-hearted comment when you decide to dedicate a thread to bashing someone's home. Furthermore, you unlocking this thread was an act of sheer lunacy. If your intent is to have a 10-page flame war, you're on the right track.



That's another thing I never thought I'd hear you say.

The rules should apply EQUALLY to EVERYONE. That's the way it's always been here. Nobody should have their hands tied simply out of team affiliation.

What people generally will and will not accept is one thing, and I accept that. However, the rules shouldn't be biased as well.

What about the article was biased though? Is there something in the article you find the author was factually incorrect about or deliberately misleading? I read articles about problems in Indianapolis all the time. If you can find an article by a respected news source which chronicles problems in Indy go ahead and post it. I love to read interesting articles that challenge the Capitol Improvements board's vision of Indy. I'd much rather see that than some photo montage of a young, overhyped receiving core with no one to throw the football to them.

Kstat
08-17-2005, 10:23 PM
What about the article was biased though? Is there something in the article you find the author was factually incorrect about or deliberately misleading? I read articles about problems in Indianapolis all the time. If you can find an article by a respected news source which chronicles problems in Indy go ahead and post it. I love to read interesting articles that challenge the Capitol Improvements board's vision of Indy. I'd much rather see that than some photo montage of a young, overhyped receiving core with no one to throw the football to them.

I was calling Hicks biased, not the article.

And obviously I wouldn't post an article about problems with Indianapolis, and use it as a punch-line, because it would serve no purpose other than to **** off the people who live there. Pretty much how this article came off.

And if there was a SERIOUS point to this thread, it should have been posted in the news forum, not in the basketball forum. You post it in the basketball forum, it comes off as a slap in the face. It's not as if you were asking for legit topic discussion by posting it in a place where nobody visits to talk about urban development.

I'm perfectly ok with discussing Detroit's issues. I do it every single day. I just don't appreciate making light of the problems in this manner.

McClintic Sphere
08-17-2005, 10:29 PM
I was calling Hicks biased, not the article.

And obviously I wouldn't post article about problems with Indianapolis because it would serve no purpose other than to **** off the people who live there. Pretty much how this article came off.

And if there was a SERIOUS point to this thread, it should have been posted in the news forum, not in the basketball forum. You post it in the basketball forum, it comes off as a slap in the face.

The only possible slap in the face is the one to Dale and that's only if he makes the wrong choice. Really now, the good thing about urban blight is that it inevitably leads to urban renewal. It's Jungian or even Hegelian in it's predictability.

Pacers#1Fan
08-17-2005, 10:36 PM
I think what the Pistons fans here need to keep in mind, is that while this is an NBA site, it's 2nd to being a Pacers site, and like it or not Pacers fans can make more of these kinds of posts and get away with it than an outsider can because this is our home, not yours, speaking in terms of who we root for and what this site was built for. I try hard to keep it welcoming to all who want to talk, but at the end of the day the Indiana fans are going to get some privilages in ways outsiders can't, because it's a shrine for the Pacers 1st before being a general NBA talk board. So while I'm not gonna let it sink to anything ridiculous, a Pacer fan is going to be allowed to make some light or modest jabs that a fan of another team won't because we are Pacers-biased.I couldn't agree more.

Kstat
08-17-2005, 10:40 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, I'm sure you loved that one.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 10:52 PM
Hicks, that statement is so one-sided biased I don't know where to begin.

Let's have someone post a KKK thread or the general average IQ of Indiana's population and see how "funny" you think it is.....I assure you both are plentiful.

In no way is it a light-hearted comment when you decide to dedicate a thread to bashing someone's home. Furthermore, you unlocking this thread was an act of sheer lunacy. If your intent is to have a 10-page flame war, you're on the right track.

You're letting your temper get the best of you on this one. KKK thread? Talk about hyperbole. Secondly, I made it clear that there IS bias around here because it IS a Pacers site FIRST, not second. Third, Sphere posted it as something light-hearted, not a mean-spirited "how can I REALLY hurt them today?" kind of post, unless you're calling him a liar. I've met the guy, and he never suggested he found it ammusing to do something like you suggest.


That's another thing I never thought I'd hear you say.

The rules should apply EQUALLY to EVERYONE. That's the way it's always been here. Nobody should have their hands tied simply out of team affiliation.

What people generally will and will not accept is one thing, and I accept that. However, the rules shouldn't be biased as well.

For all intents and purposes, they ARE equal to everyone, but they never will be in all ways. Vet posters have longer leashes, for instance. In this case, yes, I'm going to sometimes let go what I view as minor jabs at the other side, whereas yes, if someone from the outside tried it on me I am more likely to get pissed, because I'm human, and I'm a Pacers fan born and raised in Indiana. That doesn't mean I'm going to let anything truly mean get posted or carry on; and this was not. That's opinion, but, last time I checked, being admin here requires personal judgement call, and if you happen to not like it now, sorry. I don't let this place go to hell, and you know that, so try to keep it in mind before totally calling me out in one swift stroke.

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 10:52 PM
I couldn't agree more.

I couldn't disagree more.


Alright. Say you were playing a game of checkers with your friend. After your friend wins the game, you're angry, so you say to him: "Hey, too bad about your mom dying in that car crash."

The Detroit article is funny for you guys, but not for some of us who live in the Detroit area. And since Detroit fans are staples on this forum, it would seem gentlemanly to avoid crossing the insult line.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 10:52 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Don't let it get to your head, that doesn't mean I'm going to let anything worse than this go.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 10:53 PM
Mom dying in a car wreck? Can either of you even begin to NOT overreact?

BabbleOn
08-17-2005, 11:00 PM
Mom dying in a car wreck? Can either of you even begin to NOT overreact?

Laughing out loud!! Beautiful.

Hicks
08-17-2005, 11:04 PM
I sounded oddly like my namesake in that one... :hmm:

foretaz
08-18-2005, 06:01 AM
I couldn't disagree more.


Alright. Say you were playing a game of checkers with your friend. After your friend wins the game, you're angry, so you say to him: "Hey, too bad about your mom dying in that car crash."

The Detroit article is funny for you guys, but not for some of us who live in the Detroit area. And since Detroit fans are staples on this forum, it would seem gentlemanly to avoid crossing the insult line.

staples in this forum??? maybe like a staple in someones eye

i would suggest u, kstat and anyone else that shares this opinion have a couple of options if u dont like it....

dont come to this forum

discontinue being a pistons fan

move out of detroit (probably the best option, given the circumstances)

accept it as a fact of life and learn to deal with it...

:D :D :D

grace
08-18-2005, 01:19 PM
:sigh: Here I go repeating myself yet again.

Parts of Detroit are nice. Parts of Detroit suck. I lived downtown in a very nice high rise apartment building. I worked at the Children's Hospital and managed to make it home every night, even the nights I worked until 3AM. I was even there during the blackout and lived to tell the tale. You could ask my dad about the riots when he was in the National Guard, but that's a whole other story.

The house my dad's parents lived in after they got married has been torn down. The house my mom's parents lived in still stands in the area of town I affectionately call Spanish Harlem.

In the immortal words of Earl, "Let's move on."

Vicious Tyrant
08-18-2005, 02:07 PM
It's Jungian or even Hegelian in it's predictability.
:cough:

:nerd:

McClintic Sphere
08-19-2005, 08:11 AM
:cough:

:nerd:

Where did you get that smilie of me? Yes okay I'm a nerd. Monitors, censor this man, he hurt my widdle feewings.

McClintic Sphere
08-19-2005, 09:43 AM
:sigh: Here I go repeating myself yet again.

Parts of Detroit are nice. Parts of Detroit suck. I lived downtown in a very nice high rise apartment building. I worked at the Children's Hospital and managed to make it home every night, even the nights I worked until 3AM. I was even there during the blackout and lived to tell the tale. You could ask my dad about the riots when he was in the National Guard, but that's a whole other story.

The house my dad's parents lived in after they got married has been torn down. The house my mom's parents lived in still stands in the area of town I affectionately call Spanish Harlem.

In the immortal words of Earl, "Let's move on."

Do you have any video footage of Devil's Night? I hear that can be a real celebration of the city.

Edit: actually after typing this, I found a good site with pics:
http://hvfd.com/devilsnight.html

Shade
08-19-2005, 02:32 PM
Whatever. This bores me.

I made my point. Detroit is awesome AND we win more NBA champions. I win, you all lose. Booyah!!

The [Fort Wayne] Pistons and Pacers have the same number of professional basketball championships. And there's a very good chance the Pacers could have more after this season.

Btw, how do you "win champions?" :rolleyes: