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Skaut_Ech
08-02-2005, 01:24 PM
In this day and age, why does anyone fly the confederate flag? And in Indiana??

I was working yesterday on the southside and this house had a HUGE confederate flag covering most of their garage door. Personally, it's one of the few things that immediately makes me quick to anger. When you grow up in Indiana and have to deal with different forms of racism on a weekly basis, seeing something like that makes me wish I was single again so I could date his daughter as the ultimate revenge.

I just don't get this confederate flag thing. For me, it represents evil and ignorance. Nothing more.

Skaut_Ech
08-02-2005, 01:25 PM
Oh and here's a good letter I read:

This letter is in response to a recent letter that said people opposed to the Confederate flag on private property wanted to have it both ways. People like the letter writer who support and salute the Confederate flag also want it both ways.

They enjoy the luxuries and freedoms that soldiers and former soldiers like myself fought for. Yet, they have the nerve to salute and honor another flag, while our men and women are being killed and shot at every day because of the flag they proudly wear on their shoulder.

In my eyes, honoring a flag of an enemy the United States went to war against is a slap in the face to those soldiers fighting today.

After spending time in Central America, I realized very quickly that people from other countries dislike us not because we are from the North or South, but because we represent the United States of America.

I guess the letter writer would be OK with someone from Germany flying a giant swastika off Interstate 65 because his great-grandfather died in World War II fighting for Hitler. After all, that would be part of his heritage, too.

What is the deal with flying the confederate flag? I don't get it.

Hicks
08-02-2005, 01:30 PM
It's a South-Pride thing for people living, or originally from, that region. Beyond that I think it's simply what hicks (lowercase ;)) think makes them look/feel cool. Then there are racists, but I'd say that's 3rd to the others.

Hicks
08-02-2005, 01:30 PM
I wonder if the guy who wrote that letter would have an issue with me flying a big Brittish Flag off my front porch? American soldiers died fighting that enemy. Twice.

Zesty
08-02-2005, 02:24 PM
Interesting, I had an email discussion about this yesterday with a friend of mine who lives in Mississippi. I told her that regardless of what the confederate flag means to southerners, by and large it's regarded as the biggest symbol of slavery in the US. I also brought up the fact that the swastika was originally a symbol of good luck, but after the Nazis used it, people don't associate it with luck anymore. Southern pride or not, I don't think it has any reason to be displayed anywhere than in a museum. And people in IN who have a confederate flag, whether it's on their vehicle, a T-shirt, or their house, are very unlikely to just be supporting pride for the south.

Los Angeles
08-02-2005, 02:36 PM
Has anyone noticed that none of the promotional materials for the new Dukes of Hazzard movie show the top of the car? The flag is painted big-and-bold on the top of the General Lee, but they won't show it in commercials.

This movie alone is going to bring a resurgence of this symbol, like it or not.

The problem here is that the symbol is interpreted differently by different people. To many young, southern white men it means nothing more than "I'm a rebel and an outlaw! I'm a bad-***! I'm proud of my home region! Yeeeehawwwwwww!!!!"

To others it means: "I'm an ignorant racist bigot! Yeeeehawwwwwww!!!!"

I like the swastika comparison, but we need to remember that the swastika was a symbol of peace and luck that was re-appropriated to be a symbol of hate and genocide. The confederate flag has taken the opposite path: It started as a symbol of hate and slavery, but through time, ignorace and denial has been slowly distilled to mean nothing more than "I'm from the south!" to many of the folks that fly it.

Los Angeles
08-02-2005, 04:13 PM
Thought some folks would find this interesting:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106116

Chrysler Shuns Marketing Deal With Dukes of Hazzard Movie
Date Posted 06-17-2005

CHELSEA, Mich. The Chrysler Group will not tie in any marketing of its 2006 Dodge Charger with the upcoming movie, The Dukes of Hazzard, because it is afraid the display of the Confederate flag on the movie's vintage Charger will offend some viewers.

The movie, scheduled to open August 5, is based on the TV series that ran from 1979 to 1985 and featured "good old boy" cousins eluding authorities in The General Lee, a 1969 orange Dodge Charger with a Confederate flag on the roof. The movie stars Jessica Simpson, Burt Reynolds and Willie Nelson.

"They gave us the treatment for the movie and talked about a marketing deal, but we said we can't participate if you keep the Confederate flag," Jason Vines, Chrysler Group vice president of communications, told Inside Line. "It's offensive to a lot of people. But they [Warner Bros.] said 'no.' We still get a mention of the Charger in the movie, but we couldn't do anything beyond that."

The Confederate battle flag, also called the Southern Cross, has been at the center of controversy for years. It has been described as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. The Southern Poverty Law Center says more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

What this means to you: The General Lee rides again, but Chrysler doesn't want anything to do with it.

Stryder
08-02-2005, 04:21 PM
The North had slavery, too.

Skaut_Ech
08-02-2005, 04:40 PM
The North had slavery, too.

That's it? That's your big contribution?

Yeah, the north had slavery, too, but came to see it as wrong. :duh: :idea2: There is a reason the underground railroad took slaves from the south to the north.

The abolitionist movement started in the north, prompted the emacipation proclaimation, prompting the south's defeat in the civil war, in part because the south wanted to keep slaves and the north came to see it as wrong.

Aw, come on, this is grade school US history 101. You had to know this already. :dunno:

"The north had slavery, too."? You gotta do better than that. Really now.

Los Angeles
08-02-2005, 04:41 PM
The North had slavery, too.
What does that have to do with the modern day use of this symbol and how it is viewed by the public at large?

Skaut_Ech
08-02-2005, 05:01 PM
Okay, someone here flies the Confederate flag. I just know it. I'm not being judgemental. Honest. I really want to know. Why fly it?

Let me give you guys a little of my perspective and why this interests me and has always struck a bit of a cord to me.

You know how people talk about their ancestors glowingly?

"My great-great-great Grandfather came over from Italy"

"I'm part Indian on my mother's side and my great-great-great aunt was Irish"

Well, When I was very, very young, a family member showed me a picture of a woman who was my ancestor. It was a really brown, beat-up photo. The woman had these huge manacles on, covering her wrists all the way up her forearm. She was my ancestor.

She was a slave.

Now, flash forward to Junior High school history class.

I found out something that blew me away. What was really mind boggling is that almost exactly 100 years from the day I was born, the Emancipation Proclaimation was signed. Only 100 years from the day of my birth and the freeing of the slaves. Thats' not a whole lot of time. Only 100 years?

So, for me, the confederate flag came to symbolize the woman in that picture. Not a great association.

That's why I asked about why anyone would fly the "southern cross". I'm curious. It easy to say it's just southern pride when you don't have a photo of an ancestor like mine.

burnzone
08-02-2005, 05:17 PM
There are some very good points made here.

I myself believe that there are some people that fly it because they want to 'represent' the south, even if they aren't from the south, or seem like a rebel, or outlaw, like LA pointed out. The problem with that to me, is that that group of people probably doesn't really look into the true meaning of that flag from it's origin, and they may not have racial implications from flying it, but since they aren't bothering to look further, it will appear that way to an impartial viewer.

But unfortunately, there are also people who fly that flag for the wrong reasons, and it's mind boggling to me why some people would want to 'represent', or display their choice of bigotry, if they're flying it for racial overtones of their belief.

I guess I just don't see anything about that flag that says, "hey, I'm from the south, and proud of my heritage", it may not be intended by the owner, but you can't deny the hate, and bigotry behind the flag itself, and that's not the person who chose to fly the flag's fault, that mindset was created by events that happened way before our time.

But at the same time, it doesn't take much thought to be sensitive to how the flag itself makes some people feel, and it's just a matter of respect to not force it down anyone's throat, surely there are other ways to show that a person is proud of their southern heritage.

I guess you could kind of group this into a situation of, 'one bad apple ruins it for the rest of the bunch', and there may legitimately be people who fly that flag only because of their southern roots, but the others that choose hatred as their reason to display it, takes away from the others intent, and makes it appear insensitive to everyone.

Kraft
08-02-2005, 05:35 PM
Before college, I lived on the southeast side of Indy. Roncalli was about four minutes away. The Rebels have a lot of students from my township. There's a lot of Confederate flags flying. Some relatives I have fly them, too.

And absolutely, a lot of these people that I've met are absolutely racist -- some of my same relatives, included.

Let us not forget the bumper stickers, as well.

I've never got it. I fly a Purdue flag. Eh.

Arcadian
08-02-2005, 05:40 PM
I am really hesitiant to post on this topic.

Let me say that I would never fly a confederate flag. I also think that flying it in Indiana (a state that I believe sent the most Union soldiers into the South and whose largest tie to the South is at one time having a strong Klan membership) is silly.

However, my family faught on the losing side and I do have Southern Pride, believe that there are things culturally I have gain which make me a better person and feel that the South is mischaracterized by popular culture.

The Confederate flag is not how I choose to express that pride, however.

heywoode
08-02-2005, 09:53 PM
I agree that it is hard to post on this topic, but I feel like I should state my opinion.

My wife and I are both white and we remark to each other all the time about how much we detest the Confederate flag. In our minds, it brings back memories of an America that almost tore itself apart, mostly over slavery.

Recognizing and respecting one's heritage is important, but not as important as the common good. The easy question to ask would involve being able to celebrate one's heritage if it were from nazi germany, or involved wearing a KKK hood, or some other offensive-to-most group....Would it be okay then, even if it offended the majority of people?

I feel like if I were of African descent, I would be DEEPLY offended by the flying of the Confederate flag as a way to celebrate the former southern way of life. How are we to know if someone is just being a 'rebel' (don't get me started on this subject) or being a racist? It sends such an unclear message....Heck, I'm NOT of African descent and it offends me.

I honestly wonder how people who fly the Confederate flag would feel if THEIR descendants were slaves or were killed simply for the color of their skin. I have a feeling that they wouldn't have a problem getting up in someone's face for 'celebrating' that mode of thinking or that way of life.

Bottom line, it is so obvious that the Confederacy was WRONG and that slavery was the darkest period of America's history, displaying remnants of that era is not a good thing. I personally wish it were outlawed because, frankly, it sometimes makes me embarassed to be white.

Feel free to cut my opinion to pieces now; I will take it like a man......

P.S. As far as the swastika goes, I always thought that the 'good luck' version was simulating a clockwise motion and the Nazi's changed it to counter-clockwise....I could be wrong....

Stryder
08-02-2005, 10:02 PM
...I also brought up the fact that the swastika was originally a symbol of good luck, but after the Nazis used it, people don't associate it with luck anymore...



Two different swastika orientations and meanings...

The right handed or clockwise Swastika was originally used in the Hindu religion as a sign of good luck or to symbolize something good. It then crept into other religions of the area (Buddhism, etc.). The Hindu faith has also used the left handed or counterclockwise Swastika to mean the oppositie of the right handed one for ages (way before the Nazis got their hands on it and *******ized it for years to come.)

So, yes, most people associate the right handed symbol with good and the left handed one with bad.

Stryder
08-02-2005, 10:10 PM
That's it? That's your big contribution?

Yeah, the north had slavery, too, but came to see it as wrong. :duh: :idea2: There is a reason the underground railroad took slaves from the south to the north.

The abolitionist movement started in the north, prompted the emacipation proclaimation, prompting the south's defeat in the civil war, in part because the south wanted to keep slaves and the north came to see it as wrong.

Aw, come on, this is grade school US history 101. You had to know this already. :dunno:

"The north had slavery, too."? You gotta do better than that. Really now.


Touch a nerve, eh?

I just don't like to let the North off to easily. It seems so many people today think that the North was a land of pure innocence and no slavery.

Zesty
08-02-2005, 10:12 PM
Two different swastika orientations and meanings...

The right handed or clockwise Swastika was originally used in the Hindu religion as a sign of good luck or to symbolize something good. It then crept into other religions of the area (Buddhism, etc.). The Hindu faith has also used the left handed or counterclockwise Swastika to mean the oppositie of the right handed one for ages (way before the Nazis got their hands on it and *******ized it for years to come.)

So, yes, most people associate the right handed symbol with good and the left handed one with bad.

You learn something everyday. :)

Stryder
08-02-2005, 10:16 PM
By the way, I don't like the use of the confederate flag, but then again, I don't really care, because it's just a flag, and cannot do any harm.

The sentiment (that might be there or might not) behind the flag and what some people use it to stand for is what I care about.

sweabs
08-02-2005, 10:44 PM
...the Civil War was not fought over slavery.

Say what?! :-o

sweabs
08-02-2005, 11:04 PM
I don't agree with those who publically display the Confederate flag (or privately for that matter). To me, it has the same effect as someone saying: "I want things to go back to the way they were then..." - which is obviously troublesome. It is as if they are clinging onto the past - unable to let go and face the fact that times have changed.

However, I do think that the flag belongs in museums, and cannot be forgotten. We cannot just erase the past; instead we must remember times/events like these, so people will never forget and rather learn from such mistakes to prevent similar mishaps from occuring again in the future.

The ironic part about my last sentence however, is that many are using it as a way to represent the old Confederate ideals/morales, and carry on these traditions (instead of using it to put an end to such values).

sweabs
08-02-2005, 11:08 PM
Last post, I promise :D

But I had to say, this is the funniest thing I've read on here for a while!


...seeing something like that makes me wish I was single again so I could date his daughter as the ultimate revenge.

Stryder
08-02-2005, 11:59 PM
Say what?! :-o

Sorry, I mistyped. That should never have been in my response.

But, I do believe the Civil War had more to do with the Confederacy believing in state's rights than it did with slavery. I might be stupid...who knows? Haha.

indygeezer
08-03-2005, 12:05 AM
Say what?! :-o

Let me preface by saying I do not fly a Confederate flag. I had realtives chased from their homes in North Carolina because as Quakers they were Abolishionist.

The War Between the States was fought over States rights vs. the right of the Federal govenment to dictate certain courses of action to the States. IOW A confederation of States or a Country run by a central government. The most obvious and emotional of the "issues" was the slave arguement. I have read where "the South" had already started moving toward abolishment of slavery but not quick enough for the Fed. Gov...but I cannot lay my hands on that info therefore, forget I said it.

Now this is strictly my opinion, but since I'm not black I cannot speak from that POV. To me the Confed. flag is not a symbol of hatred or racism, it is a symbol of a losing cause.
I RECENTLY SAW THE SYMBOL OF HATRED AND RACISM flying outside a home in a poor section of Greenfield. True it had the Stars and Bars in the background, but that was overshadowed by the greyish circle in the center with squiggle lines within the circle. Also within this circle were the letters KKK diagonally. And above the circle were the words WHITE POWER.
This was the flag of racism and hate...a prostituted version of the Confederate flag and it was within 6 blocks of my Church, a Church also hated by the KKK.

Sidenote...1 week later as I passed thru this area again I saw a fellow come out of that house carrying come shairs...Obiviously pissed, he slammed them into the back of his pick-up along with the rest of his furniture. The next day I noticed a FOR RENT sign on the house.

Stryder
08-03-2005, 12:12 AM
..The War Between the States was fought over States rights vs. the right of the Federal govenment to dictate certain courses of action to the States. IOW A confederation of States or a Country run by a central government. The most obvious and emotional of the "issues" was the slave arguement. I have read where "the South" had already started moving toward abolishment of slavery but not quick enough for the Fed. Gov...but I cannot lay my hands on that info therefore, forget I said it...


Boom Baby!

Yes, I do believe the south had taken a step in the right direction on their own, albeit a very small one, but very significant...

The Confederate Constitution protected the institution of slavery, but prohibited slave trade internationally.

As I said, a small step, but significant.

sweabs
08-03-2005, 12:15 AM
The States' rights issue stemmed from slavery, however.

Hicks
08-03-2005, 12:15 AM
So the Confederates were on the verge of sabotaging their economy on their own because of their conscience, but the mean old US government went and ruined it? Right.

Stryder
08-03-2005, 12:20 AM
The States' rights issue stemmed from slavery, however.

Much more than slavery...

Taken directly from Wikipedia...

"The Confederate States Constitution provides much insight into the motivations for secession from the Union. Based to a certain extent on both the Articles of Confederation and on the United States Constitution, it reflected a stronger philosophy of states' rights, curtailing the power of the central authority, and also contained explicit protection of the institution of slavery, though international slave trading was prohibited. It differed from the US Constitution chiefly by addressing the grievances of the secessionist states against the federal government of the United States. For example, the Confederate government was prohibited from instituting protective tariffs, making southern ports more attractive to international traders. Prior to the declarations of secession, most southerners regarded protective tariffs as a measure that enriched the northern states at the expense of the south. The Confederate government was also prohibited from using revenues collected in one state for funding internal improvements in another state. At the same time, however, much of the Confederate constitution was a word-for-word duplicate of the US one."

Stryder
08-03-2005, 12:27 AM
Back to topic,

I don't like it when I see people waving the Confederate flag, because we know the history behind it, but I do not know that person's intentions.

If the intentions are good, then it is okay with me.

If the intentions are bad, then while I don't like it, it is still okay with me, and they are voicing their opinion.

And no, I do not and have never flown a confederate flag. The closest thing that I have got to one is my Lynyrd Skynyrd shirt from a concert back in the 90's.

Skaut_Ech
08-03-2005, 12:42 AM
Boom Baby!

Yes, I do believe the south had taken a step in the right direction on their own, albeit a very small one, but very significant...

The Confederate Constitution protected the institution of slavery, but prohibited slave trade internationally.

As I said, a small step, but significant.

"Yup. Don't need to bring in any more negras. We got enough. Let's pass something to stop the international trade. We'll just grow our own!"

:laugh:

:sigh:

MarionDeputy
08-03-2005, 01:04 AM
I almost didn't hit the reply button on this one....I hope I can adequately express my thougts here. First off let me say I think people that fly the Confederate flag here in Indiana are absolute white racist trash. I am white, and my wife is black and I admit to being pretty sensitive to racist comments, which any long timer posters here should remember. Indiana was a northern state as earlier pointed out, so flying the flag here can only tie yourself to the negative connotations that have attached themselves to the Confederate flag.

With that said you have to remeber that the Civl War like Skaut pointed out was not fought that long ago. In relative terms, my grand father is 84 years old making him born in 1921, the Civil war started in 1861 which was 60 years prior to my grand fathers birth which means my great grandfather most likely was alive during the Civil war, that makes me only 3 generations away from it. I know thats basic mathmatics, but when I think about it those terms it seems eerily close.

You have to remember that the South was fighting to protect its way of life, obviously slavery is wrong but at that time it was socially acceptable in the South. I read an interesting article about the South where the authour stated that because during the 1800's the South had no deep water ports, most European transfer of culture occurred in the North because thats were the ships and trading partners conducted business. At that time the southern states mostly made their livings with farming. Most European countries outlawed slavery in the early 1800's so they were almost 60 years in front of us. I always found that to be an interesting hypothesis.

Anyway, once the war got underway the southerners generaly felt that the North was restricting their way of life. But when the war ended you still had quite a bit of bitterness to the North and a sense of pride as to belonging to the Confederacy. These were true believers of their cause, right or wrong, most fought and lost family members to the war, and in that struggle, pride for the South was formed. Most of the north which culturally and econmically was way ahead of their southern countrymen, created an inferiority complex, and when the abolishinist movement was being forcefully fed into federal government, many Southerners felt that they were no longer being represented by the government. And individual representation of the people has always been a sensitive subject for Americans.

Which is where I think most of the pride for the Confederacy comes from, most of the Southern states incorporated the Southern Cross into their State Flag. Hell South Carolina just in the last 10 years quit flying the Confederate flag underneath the American flag at their state capitol! Which leads back to how recent this war really occurred. I believe Mississippi still has not removed the Southern Cross from it's state flag.

Unfortunately the Confederate flag became something more than just a symbol of Southern pride. It became the symbol for racisim. The KKK, adopted it as their flag in the late 60's when the civil rights movement was in full swing. In fact if you look at old pictures of Klan rallies ( a college proffessor of mine pointed this out to me), you rarely see the Confederate flag. Most of us remember watching the Dukes of Hazzard on TV, and although I was pretty young, I never remember hearing any negative rethoric about the flag displayed on the car each week. Feelings of discord came much later in the late 80's and 90's.

In conclusion I think the Confederacy was an important part of our history, unfortunatly the symbol has been twisted into meaning something entirely different. And most likely when you see it being flown today the bearer usually uses "southern pride" as an excuse to cloak their true feelings of racisim.

Also I challenge anyone to defend the statement that the Civil War was not fought over slavery. Those that point out that it was fought over "States-Rights" often forget that the states rights that the south was fighting for was the states right to allow slavery!!

Arcadian
08-03-2005, 01:12 AM
Yes, the South had an inhumane pratice of slavery and that issue did play a role in why the Civil War was faught, however, I hate the smugness that comes across as history talks about going to war to free the slaves.

The North fighting the war to free slaves had as much to do with slavery as the Iraqi War being faught to free the Iraqis--both good causes but neither the main reason for the wars. The North went to war because the South left.

I believe a lot of the pride in the Confederacy comes from the resentment the South has about how the North shames them. Despite there being race riots in LA and Detriot so often the North says "Yeah, there are race problems in America--in the South" which there are but there are race problems in all 50 states. I honestly believe that the Bars and Stars would be laid to rest quicker if America admitted that it had a race problem in all 50 states.

Stryder
08-03-2005, 01:19 AM
Also I challenge anyone to defend the statement that the Civil War was not fought over slavery. Those that point out that it was fought over "States-Rights" often forget that the states rights that the south was fighting for was the states right to allow slavery!!

Look at the passage I posted from Wikipedia above. A couple of other main reasons why Civil War occured...

Slavery was not the biggest issue!

Arcadian has it right. Spot on.

The only reason the North went to war was because the South had and was seceding into a Confederacy of States. I don't care how many times you hear it in revisionist history books. The main issue was not slavery.

Stryder
08-03-2005, 01:20 AM
"Yup. Don't need to bring in any more negras. We got enough. Let's pass something to stop the international trade. We'll just grow our own!"

:laugh:

:sigh:

As I said, a step in the right direction, albeit a small, tiny, miniscule one...

Stryder
08-03-2005, 01:20 AM
Yes, the South had an inhumane pratice of slavery and that issue did play a role in why the Civil War was faught, however, I hate the smugness that comes across as history talks about going to war to free the slaves.

The North fighting the war to free slaves had as much to do with slavery as the Iraqi War being faught to free the Iraqis--both good causes but neither the main reason for the wars. The North went to war because the South left.

I believe a lot of the pride in the Confederacy comes from the resentment the South has about how the North shames them. Despite there being race riots in LA and Detriot so often the North says "Yeah, there are race problems in America--in the South" which there are but there are race problems in all 50 states. I honestly believe that the Bars and Stars would be laid to rest quicker if America admitted that it had a race problem in all 50 states.


Good post.

MarionDeputy
08-03-2005, 01:31 AM
Yes, the South had an inhumane pratice of slavery and that issue did play a role in why the Civil War was faught, however, I hate the smugness that comes across as history talks about going to war to free the slaves.

The North fighting the war to free slaves had as much to do with slavery as the Iraqi War being faught to free the Iraqis--both good causes but neither the main reason for the wars. The North went to war because the South left.

I believe a lot of the pride in the Confederacy comes from the resentment the South has about how the North shames them. Despite there being race riots in LA and Detriot so often the North says "Yeah, there are race problems in America--in the South" which there are but there are race problems in all 50 states. I honestly believe that the Bars and Stars would be laid to rest quicker if America admitted that it had a race problem in all 50 states.

I agree with that statement, good post. I am from Detroit originally and race relations there are still a sensitive subject. That part about embarassment is dead on thats what I was trying to get across in my post, you just said it a lot better and in about a third of many words!!!!

MagicRat
08-03-2005, 01:34 AM
I don't know why people fly the confederate flag, but I spent part of a day in Gettysburg last week.

Lee must've been crazy to send so many men across this field......
http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/gettysburg1.jpg
Here's the monument that stands on the spot where Lincoln gave the Gettysburg address........
http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/gettysburg2.jpg

Doug
08-03-2005, 09:13 AM
I had realtives chased from their homes in North Carolina because as Quakers they were Abolishionist.

Geezer, we might be related. Me too.

Stryder
08-03-2005, 09:46 AM
Found this quote from Lincoln, "The Great Emancipator", from his first debate with Douglas...from 1858....

http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm

"Now, gentlemen, I don't want to read at any greater length, but this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to the institution of slavery and the black race. This is the whole of it, and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro, is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse-chestnut to be a chestnut horse. [Laughter.] I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects-certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man. [Great applause.]"

_________

Lincoln's thoughts changed with public opinion. You'll find quotes about how he detests slavery, then you'll find quotes about how he should not, will not, and cannot do anything about slavery...

Just some food for thought...

Stryder
08-03-2005, 10:03 AM
The second debate is also a good read.

http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate2.htm

Los Angeles
08-04-2005, 01:21 AM
Had a great conversation tonight with friends about the flag issue.

One guy related the use of the confederate flag along the lines of the use of the skull and crossbones. He talked a lot about the history of the S&B, and how it was designed as a symbol of terror and crime but through time and temperment is now displayed with ease at amusement parks.

That led to another friend talking about the use of pro sports team logos to proclaim gang affiliation. For a long time in LA, flying Raiders gear in the wrong neigborhood would have been asking to get shot at.

But everyone in the conversation aknowledged that the meaning of symbols change easily. If Islamic extremists suddenly adopted the rainbow flag as thier symbol, you'd have to be a damn fool to show up at a gay pride parade with one and not know that it has a different meaning.

pollardfreek
08-04-2005, 09:36 AM
I think what Arcadian was saying was spot on. There still exists racism in all 50 states. I know a lot of people, too many to count actually, that either fly the confederate flag or have a confederate flag sticker on their vehicle; and this is IN CALIFORNIA! They're not flying because of Southern pride, but because of their hate for black people. And if you ask them about it, they'll openly admit that fact, even with a sense of pride in their voices. It's absolutely sickening to me that people can have such a deep hatred, an abhorrance, for fellow members of the human race just because of the color of their skin. I look all around myself and I worry for the future of America.

RWB
08-04-2005, 12:13 PM
When you grow up in Indiana and have to deal with different forms of racism on a weekly basis, seeing something like that makes me wish I was single again so I could date his daughter as the ultimate revenge.


So you're saying you would date his daughter just to get revenge? Scott that sounds like using womem to me. Just pointing out we ALL have to recognize how easy it is to be hurtful. I also know you're just blowing off steam. ;)

Also everyone talks about the Klan in Indiana when in reality the most dangerous group is called World Church of the Creator. These sick @ssholes target colleges and high schools to recruit new members. While the Klan or Aryan movements pretty much spell out their hatred the WCOTC try the sneak approach by planting the seed minority students receive more favorable treatment compared to white students. It's sad but international terrorism is only part of what we REALLY have to worry about. Domestic groups or pieces of ***** like Tim McVeigh are far more plentiful.

indygeezer
08-07-2005, 09:10 AM
I just got back from 3 days in Tennessee where I saw the Stars and Bars aplenty. What I saw, heard, felt was that it was a rallying symbol for young, country music lovin, beer drinking, whatevers, that wanted to appear rebellious and anti-authority. I don't think they were thinking of blacks one way or another. For the most part they seemed to want to identify with an image of the tough ol' country boy, and in my opinion 99.9% would **** down their leg if anybody ever pointed a gun in their direction.

McClintic Sphere
08-07-2005, 12:01 PM
skaut,
My advice to you is do not go to Stone Mountain, GA where there is a huge granite memorial in tribute to the Southern leadership from the Civil War, akin to Mount Rushmore. It also features a museum detailing the history of that area during the civil war. Not to be flippant but I don't know how there is a good way to preserve that era of history and its symbols because of their varying representation to different people without offending some. I know that is totally different from your initial posting regarding someone from Indiana flying the confederate flag to represent some kind of redneck pride. In the South I think there is a legitimate pride in aspects of their civil war independence that has nothing to do with racism. But, your reaction is totally understandable.

SycamoreKen
08-09-2005, 11:44 PM
I share the opinion that flying the confederate flag in Indiana seems rather absurd. That war was the most unique one in the history of our country, so its hold on us is unique indeed. The has been debate here about the con. flag being used at Robert E. Lee High School. One person wrote in that if people were going to complain about that, why were they not protesting the flag of the country that propogated more slavery than ours did outside of another high school here. That would be the Union Jack outside of Churchall High.

As for the issue of slavery in the North, if it had been a fesiable economic option it probably would have been retained longer. The North just waited a little longer during the industrial revolution to take advantage of leagle immigrants in sweat shops. Not to mention those fine Chinamen that built those railroads out West.