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View Full Version : Who's more tradable, Cro or Bender?



Anthem
07-20-2005, 11:16 AM
Well?

ChicagoJ
07-20-2005, 11:18 AM
Croshere, because Bender probably can't pass a physical.

foretaz
07-20-2005, 11:34 AM
this is obviously a trick question, right?

cause the obvious answer is neither...;)

u cant use either one of their names and tradeable in the same sentence...i actually heard they were going to define such as improper english

Brian
07-20-2005, 11:42 AM
Bender,because more people are willing to take a chance on an overrated black guy,rather than an overrated,overpaid white guy.


Yes bender is overpaid also,but his contract would be alot easier to move than cros.

indytoad
07-20-2005, 11:42 AM
That's like asking if you would prefer to be shot or stabbed.

IndyToad
Should be in the car

Bball
07-20-2005, 11:43 AM
Well, if the question is "Who has been more worthless to the team, Cro or Bender?" then the answer is easy. Bender has been worthless. Cro has actually helped us win some games along the way. True, Cro may have helped lose some as well but then part of that could arguably be attributed to injuries and overplaying due to the team's depleted roster last season.

Meanwhile, Bender is the epitome of worthless. His whole value is about his supposed ability to do what he's never done.

But both are so far overpaid that neither would be tradable in my opinion.... even tho Cro has done more on the court.

-Bball

Shade
07-20-2005, 11:45 AM
Bender is more tradable, but not by much.

foretaz
07-20-2005, 11:46 AM
Well, if the question is "Who has been more worthless to the team, Cro or Bender?" then the answer is easy. Bender has been worthless. Cro has actually helped us win some games along the way. True, Cro may have helped lose some as well but then part of that could arguably be attributed to injuries and overplaying due to the team's depleted roster last season.

Meanwhile, Bender is the epitome of worthless. His whole value is about his supposed ability to do what he's never done.

But both are so far overpaid that neither would be tradable in my opinion.... even tho Cro has done more on the court.

-Bball

you know....im beginning to detect an ever so slight amount of dislike for bender in ur comments

Diamond Dave
07-20-2005, 11:52 AM
Bender,because more people are willing to take a chance on an overrated black guy,rather than an overrated,overpaid white guy.


Yes bender is overpaid also,but his contract would be alot easier to move than cros.

Lets see if I get this right. Both were overrated, both are overpaid. However since Bender is black he gets bumped up a notch. :rolleyes:

Personally I don't think the rest of the GMs in this league are as foolish as some of those on this board and organization.

The Bucks had a high draft pick once, full of potential, great athlete, very raw....his name was Marcus Haislip. The were able to just cut the ties. Why can't we with Bender. IMO no one sees Bender as the great potential anymore. In six years he has contributed nothing.

The difference between Croshere's contract and Benders is that Croshere's was an award for great play. Bender just got his for the future.

While I think both are very hard to trade, Croshere for the obvious reasons that he will actually PLAY for another team has to give him more value.

Bball
07-20-2005, 11:52 AM
you know....im beginning to detect an ever so slight amount of dislike for bender in ur comments

I don't respect Bender's game because I don't think he has any (blame it on injury or lack of early coaching). I'm starting to question where his head is at as well but until we get some confirmation I'll mostly just keep that filed away and keep my eyes open.

-Bball

Brian
07-20-2005, 11:56 AM
Lets see if I get this right. Both were overrated, both are overpaid. However since Bender is black he gets bumped up a notch. :rolleyes:

Personally I don't think the rest of the GMs in this league are as foolish as some of those on this board and organization.

The Bucks had a high draft pick once, full of potential, great athlete, very raw....his name was Marcus Haislip. The were able to just cut the ties. Why can't we with Bender. IMO no one sees Bender as the great potential anymore. In six years he has contributed nothing.

The difference between Croshere's contract and Benders is that Croshere's was an award for great play. Bender just got his for the future.

While I think both are very hard to trade, Croshere for the obvious reasons that he will actually PLAY for another team has to give him more value.


Well just so people dont get their panties in a wad,let me put it like this....Who has been more hyped up?,Who could block more shots?,Who could hit more 3's?.Whos contract is easier to move?.

I mean even Larry Bird has basically said that more people take chances on a black athlete than a white athlete.

Unclebuck
07-20-2005, 12:00 PM
That's like asking if you would prefer to be shot or stabbed.

IndyToad
Should be in the car


Shot, always seemd to be less painful

foretaz
07-20-2005, 12:06 PM
Lets see if I get this right. Both were overrated, both are overpaid. However since Bender is black he gets bumped up a notch. :rolleyes:

Personally I don't think the rest of the GMs in this league are as foolish as some of those on this board and organization.

The Bucks had a high draft pick once, full of potential, great athlete, very raw....his name was Marcus Haislip. The were able to just cut the ties. Why can't we with Bender. IMO no one sees Bender as the great potential anymore. In six years he has contributed nothing.

The difference between Croshere's contract and Benders is that Croshere's was an award for great play. Bender just got his for the future.

While I think both are very hard to trade, Croshere for the obvious reasons that he will actually PLAY for another team has to give him more value.

as ive said...i believe this is a trick question....

however...croshere has zero chance of ever being worth remotely close to 9 million a year...think about it...what would he get on the open market right now if he were a free agent?....who would get more interest and money, james jones or croshere?

like it or not potential will always play a role in what most every guy is paid....croshere wasnt given the contract he has as a reward he was given it because of what potential people saw based on his previous play, in this case one series....bender isnt much different in this regard, or anyone else in the league....

bender has a better chance, albeit a chance that appears to be very very slim, of being worth somewhere close to the 7 or so million dollars he makes than austin does being worth 9....and its all based on ifs and potential....which is what most contracts are based on....there is zero reason to believe austin will get any bettter....weve seen as good as it gets with him....and its just not all that great...and definitely not in the same zip code as 9 million...

bender is still very young...and his biggest problem so far , is health...IF he ever becomes healthy then he has a shot at being somewhere close to the 7 million....austin simply has no chance....

Diamond Dave
07-20-2005, 12:07 PM
Well just so people dont get their panties in a wad,let me put it like this....Who has been more hyped up?,Who could block more shots?,Who could hit more 3's?.Whos contract is easier to move?.

I mean even Larry Bird has basically said that more people take chances on a black athlete than a white athlete.

What does "basically" mean? I'm sure Bird would not like to be quoted as saying that. Especially if he only basically said that.

And as far as your list of questions "who could do this?", "who could do that."

Obviously Croshere. Because we all know that Bender hasn't done anything.

And as far as hype. Success on the floor is the best hype. So unless a team is looking for a kick-*** HORSE player, they're going with Croshere.

Brian
07-20-2005, 12:14 PM
What does "basically" mean? I'm sure Bird would not like to be quoted as saying that. Especially if he only basically said that.

And as far as your list of questions "who could do this?", "who could do that."

Obviously Croshere. Because we all know that Bender hasn't done anything.

And as far as hype. Success on the floor is the best hype. So unless a team is looking for a kick-*** HORSE player, they're going with Croshere.



Listen all I am going to leave it at is...Noone is going to take Crosheres contract,Austin has reached his peak.It has been seen.And people are still in the mode of "we havent seen Bender hit his peak".Plus its all on paper,Benders contract is easier to move than Crosheres.And we all know if it came down to this with the pacers having to decided to move either Cro or JB,they will move Cro without thinking twice.

diamonddave00
07-20-2005, 12:17 PM
Bender by far has more value. I base that on the P word potential. Bender is still just 24 while Croshere is 30. At this point you know exactly what you get in Austin Croshere . With Bender its still the great IF HE CAN STAY HEALTHY .

Salarywise its Croshere 2 yrs 18.4 mil , Bender 2 yrs 14.9 . Both grossly overpaid based on production.

Supposively the Lakers had a scout in Minnesota to watch Bender play his one game there. I know its a beaten horse but a friend out there says Lakers are still intrested in Bender ( Phil sees him as the matchup problem Kukoc was on the Bulls) , I'm sure the same junk would be offered for him Divac's contract bought out and something else useless .

If Bender can prove he's healthy come training camp there could be a market for him , if Donnie and Larry decide to cut their loses now.

Los Angeles
07-20-2005, 12:18 PM
This poll is kind of like asking "what tastes better: dirt or sand?"

I have no idea who is more tradeable.

I have a gut feeling on who is most tradeable on our whole team: AJ, Foster, Pollard (at the deadline) Freddie, and Jermaine. Ron Artest gets honorable mention, but I don't want to discuss him. Those are the guys that have a desirable short-term upside for the other team.

Brian
07-20-2005, 12:19 PM
Bender by far has more value. I base that on the P word potential. Bender is still just 24 while Croshere is 30. At this point you know exactly what you get in Austin Croshere . With Bender its still the great IF HE CAN STAY HEALTHY .

Salarywise its Croshere 2 yrs 18.4 mil , Bender 2 yrs 14.9 . Both grossly overpaid based on production.

Supposively the Lakers had a scout in Minnesota to watch Bender play his one game there. I know its a beaten horse but a friend out there says Lakers are still intrested in Bender ( Phil sees him as the matchup problem Kukoc was on the Bulls) , I'm sure the same junk would be offered for him Divac's contract bought out and something else useless .

If Bender can prove he's healthy come training camp there could be a market for him , if Donnie and Larry decide to cut their loses now.


Oh yea,I mean obviously they would move Bender given the chance,But they would rather move AC.

Diamond Dave
07-20-2005, 12:20 PM
as ive said...i believe this is a trick question....

however...croshere has zero chance of ever being worth remotely close to 9 million a year...think about it...what would he get on the open market right now if he were a free agent?....who would get more interest and money, james jones or croshere?

Obviously James Jones. But its because James Jones has showed that he is a valuable asset right now, and has shown that he has the ability to get better. Bender has shown nothing. He has done nothing worth noting on the floor. So James Jones beats Croshere in the same way that Croshere beats Bender.



like it or not potential will always play a role in what most every guy is paid....croshere wasnt given the contract he has as a reward he was given it because of what potential people saw based on his previous play, in this case one series....bender isnt much different in this regard, or anyone else in the league....

How can you not say Bender is much different. Jonathon Bender had never helped the Indiana Pacers win a game at the point of his extention. What has anyone seen in Bender so far? An oversized track-star that learned all he knows about basketball by watching ESPN Sportscenter. He has zero fundamental skills. Sure he can dunk, block, and shoot bombs. But he can't screen, v-cut, box-out, defend, etc....



bender has a better chance, albeit a chance that appears to be very very slim, of being worth somewhere close to the 7 or so million dollars he makes than austin does being worth 9....and its all based on ifs and potential....which is what most contracts are based on....there is zero reason to believe austin will get any bettter....weve seen as good as it gets with him....and its just not all that great...and definitely not in the same zip code as 9 million...

What makes you say that. The guy hasn't played in 2 years, and before that he didn't play much. You're right Austin won't get any better, but either will Bender. He is a player that relied soley on his athleticism, but with bad knees that will be taken away and he'll have to rely on basketball skills in which he has none.

Brian
07-20-2005, 12:27 PM
Why dont the pacers just pull an MLB and just shoot up JB knees with roids every other game.

Get him on some pain pills and roids.
Ill bet he'd play alot more than he is now.


LOL...im just kidding.

But damn this guy pisses me off.

Diamond Dave
07-20-2005, 12:28 PM
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can remember before it was "If Jon can get healthy" it was "If Jon can start to grasp this game." He was a deer in the headlights before he got injured. I can vividly remember seeing him run 3 line to 3 line.

So even if he gets healthy, I'm not exicited. He just becomes a project again.

Los Angeles
07-20-2005, 12:32 PM
OH - and by the way, the biggest advantage for us to keep these guys is that their contracts come off the books eventually. The biggest reason for anyone to trade for them is to clear cap room when thier contracts expire. Meaning, if we trade them, it will likely be for players with even longer contracts.

That doesn't make sense to me.

I think the best course of action here is:

1) let them expire
2) let the market determine thier value
3) make your choice to out-bid or not
4) be done with it.

foretaz
07-20-2005, 12:34 PM
Obviously James Jones. But its because James Jones has showed that he is a valuable asset right now, and has shown that he has the ability to get better. Bender has shown nothing. He has done nothing worth noting on the floor. So James Jones beats Croshere in the same way that Croshere beats Bender.



How can you not say Bender is much different. Jonathon Bender had never helped the Indiana Pacers win a game at the point of his extention. What has anyone seen in Bender so far? An oversized track-star that learned all he knows about basketball by watching ESPN Sportscenter. He has zero fundamental skills. Sure he can dunk, block, and shoot bombs. But he can't screen, v-cut, box-out, defend, etc....



What makes you say that. The guy hasn't played in 2 years, and before that he didn't play much. You're right Austin won't get any better, but either will Bender. He is a player that relied soley on his athleticism, but with bad knees that will be taken away and he'll have to rely on basketball skills in which he has none.

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you do realize that just because u say it, type it and maybe even believe it, that these things dont make it true....

ok...u make it apparent that he has no value to u...

but last time i checked, you dont run any nba teams...

i also think u greatly overexaggerate benders deficiencies....though i would never claim hes a genius when it comes to basketball iq...

i also think, that for ur sake of argument, u choose to dismiss and belittle the things bender has done in the limited time he has been able to be on the court...very simply, when healthy he has proven he can do a number of things that can be valuable to win....even if u dont place a high value on such things....though i dont understand how blocking shots and shooting the basketball well arent perceived as being decent fundamentals...

u do realize there are lot of guys that get paid alot of money in this league that can do less than bender, WHEN HEALTHY....

if someone wants to argue that bender will never be healthy and therefore never have value...that is a legit argument that we will just have to wait and see on....

if someone wants to argue that he has no basketball skills or anything that would be valuable to a basketball team, if healthy, then i would think that person is being either stubborn or naive....especially since there are some pretty knowledgeable basketball minds, that know far more about it than any of us, that seem to disagree....

Diamond Dave
07-20-2005, 12:52 PM
you do realize that just because u say it, type it and maybe even believe it, that these things dont make it true....

Well damn, I guess you do learn something new everyday. :rolleyes:


i also think, that for ur sake of argument, u choose to dismiss and belittle the things bender has done in the limited time he has been able to be on the court...very simply, when healthy he has proven he can do a number of things that can be valuable to win....even if u dont place a high value on such things....though i dont understand how blocking shots and shooting the basketball well arent perceived as being decent fundamentals...

Blocking shots and hitting three point shots are talent supplementals to the fundamentals of defense and jump shooting. I would be interested to know other than the first round with Boston last year and that Orlando game four years ago, what games has Bender had a significant part in winning. I can name several from Croshere in this season alone.


u do realize there are lot of guys that get paid alot of money in this league that can do less than bender, WHEN HEALTHY....

That doesn't make our decision any wiser to hold onto Bender.



if someone wants to argue that he has no basketball skills or anything that would be valuable to a basketball team, if healthy, then i would think that person is being either stubborn or naive....especially since there are some pretty knowledgeable basketball minds, that know far more about it than any of us, that seem to disagree....

Back to the ol' team knows best, its pointless to discuss it stuff.

foretaz
07-20-2005, 01:13 PM
[/color][/size][/size][/color]

[size=2][color=#000000]Well damn, I guess you do learn something new everyday. :rolleyes:



Blocking shots and hitting three point shots are talent supplementals to the fundamentals of defense and jump shooting. I would be interested to know other than the first round with Boston last year and that Orlando game four years ago, what games has Bender had a significant part in winning. I can name several from Croshere in this season alone.



That doesn't make our decision any wiser to hold onto Bender.




Back to the ol' team knows best, its pointless to discuss it stuff.

not sure how jump shooting is a fundamental but one who can shoot and make 3 pointers only has a supplementary skill :confused:

look...noone is saying bender is a well rounded basketball player....

BUT HES 24....

if hes healthy(which is the real issue-like it or not) he will most likely play another 10 years or so in this league....

yes...hes been in the league for 6 years....

but how much has he actually played??????

we can go back to the merits of high schoolers going to the nba...and we can question the pacers selection and whatever else....

but facts are bender came to and has been on a very, very talented team...and has battled injuries off and on for most of his career and for all intents and purposes hasnt played in the last 3 years due to those injuries...

the very few times he has played, he has certainly shown glimpses of very special talents and gifts that would be greatly valuable on any team....

quite honestly, part of benders problem has probably been that hes too much of an athletic freak....noone has really known where to play him at....hes got the height to play like a big guy....but he has many perimeter skills, most notably being a terrific outside shooter and very good ballhandling skills(evidently not a fundamental either) for a man of his size....

WHERE THE HELL DO U PLAY HIM????

if u recall for the first few years, the only real years he was even remotely healthy, he was targeted at the 2....a place that reggie miller resided....

i just think we get caught up far too much on the fact hes being paid alot of money and has been unable to play....

hes very very young....and hasnt been healthy for 3 years...when he was somewhat healthy, he was unbelievably young and raw and buried behind an incredible amount of talent, not to mention the organization didnt really know what to do with him....

the man is a talent....there is simply no doubt about that....there is a doubt about his health...and thats very real...and that will ultimately decide his fate in this league...not his skillset....he has skills....and he can learn other ones....but he cant learn them if hes not healthy...

give the pacers credit for identifying a great talent and trying to build for the future....give them failing grades on their handling of his situation....probably both on the handling of his injuries as well as being able to zero in on the best way to play him....if they dont know, hows a 'deer in headlights' supposed to know or get better....

Old as Dirt
07-20-2005, 02:20 PM
That is right most in here want to trade AC, even though he played with broken ribs and Lord only knows what eles. And some of the great ones on this team could not play because they had a finger hurt, or their big toes did n:t feel good. To bad that AC cannot be placed in with some of the old timeers lik Larry and some others they played hurt. and So did A C. I for one will say thank Cro. You are a pro.

Diamond Dave
07-20-2005, 02:27 PM
That is right most in here want to trade AC, even though he played with broken ribs and Lord only knows what eles. And some of the great ones on this team could not play because they had a finger hurt, or their big toes did n:t feel good. To bad that AC cannot be placed in with some of the old timeers lik Larry and some others they played hurt. and So did A C. I for one will say thank Cro. You are a pro.

Here, Here :buddies:

Ultimate Frisbee
07-20-2005, 02:45 PM
I like Cro... I just don't like his contract! I wish we could give him more minutes but I think he is destined to come off the bench for short periods of time for his entire career

Anthem
07-20-2005, 06:21 PM
Supposively the Lakers had a scout in Minnesota to watch Bender play his one game there. I know its a beaten horse but a friend out there says Lakers are still intrested in Bender ( Phil sees him as the matchup problem Kukoc was on the Bulls) , I'm sure the same junk would be offered for him Divac's contract bought out and something else useless.

See this is what I'm getting at. I like Croshere and I'm thankful for what he contributed, but I don't see a situation where he'd get any minutes this coming year. If he was healthy, I'd like Bender and would look forward to seeing him develop, but he won't do that here because there aren't any minutes. I'd rather neither one was on our roster this coming year.

Only one can be bought out. So you figure out which one you have a prayer of moving, and then waive the other one. I still think Houston's a good target. Spoon and Harper for Fred, Gill, and either Bender or Croshere works just fine.