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indygeezer
07-19-2005, 12:02 PM
Q. David Harrison has been showing some tremendous upside. With him getting more playing time last year due to the brawl, is this the year that the Pacers have somewhat of a dominant center? Assuming his knee stays healthy, can he help take some of the pressure off Jermaine (O'Neal) in the low post on a regular basis? (From Jake in Indianapolis)



A. Harrison's performance just might be the most encouraging development in the summer league, given it is his first organized competition since the middle of March. Even in limited time (to protect his recovering knee) Monday, he played particularly well against No. 1 pick Andrew Bogut of Milwaukee, scoring 16 points in just 14 minutes, hitting six of eight shots. Harrison has averaged 14.8 points in 22.0 minutes, hitting 21 of 34 shots (.618). His overall level of fitness has been impressive and he clearly lost weight during his rehab.

The Pacers have always been confident of Harrison's scoring ability. What they need to see in order to consider a larger role is improved post defense, particularly as it relates to avoiding foul trouble, defensive rebounding and composure. He's averaging 3.8 rebounds in the summer league, an unimpressive figure. He has picked up 14 fouls in 88 minutes, an average of 7.6 per 48 minutes played; clearly, that's too high. And he has been hit with six technical fouls.

For the time being, it appears he'll be at his best in short bursts, which indicates a reserve role. Still, having a second big man capable of drawing double-teams in the post is a very good thing not only for O'Neal but for the entire team because of the additional matchup and lineup options it would present. It remains to be seen if he will develop into a dominant center but it is apparent Harrison is getting close to being ready to assume a prominent role in the rotation.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 12:07 PM
I love it.

In theory, his fouls will go down as the officials become more familiar with his game and he becomes more familiar with NBA officiating.

But he needs game-time minutes to figure it out.

I love his FG%, and as I've said before I don't really care about his RPG numbers because I like the way he uses his body to block out and seal his man (and more) away from the glass.

He may still be a year away from starting, and I'd love for him to spend one more year with Dale if Dale isn't offered more than the vets minimum by anyone else.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 12:21 PM
i still love the idea of him starting....though hes probably not quite ready...and the more reports from summer league like this, the more i feel that way....

let him play with the big boys....having him in there will help jermaine get off every game....teams simply wont be able to give the same attention to jo with david in the lineup...

put him in and let him see how he does each nite....who cares if he cant go for long stretches...we got plenty of guys to come in for him, whenever it seems appropriate....plus as a younger player its often easier to get ur own rhythm starting versus coming in off the bench....we have veterans behind him that shouldnt have much problem coming off the bench....foster seems better suited coming off the bench and the energy he brings seems ideal for that slot....

i think it would help his confidence immensely....i also think it would raise his own personal expectations and probably insure a maximum effort is given every nite, knowing that he has a large role with the team and the other key players are counting on him....

let him start the first half and second half....how much he plays will fluctuate quite a bit, as will his performance-but thats to be expected by a second year player....

i cant help but think it would aid in his development....and his development is a key for the pacers...

Kegboy
07-19-2005, 12:33 PM
I'm hesitant to start him too early. Reminds me when Jeff started before we got Brad. He was just too young and got killed by the refs.

Unclebuck
07-19-2005, 12:33 PM
The topic of whether DH will start this season was discussed Sat night. I just don't see him starting this season for the reasons Brunner pointed out. Foul trouble. We also asked everyone at the party if DH is the long term answer at center for the Pacers. I forget the overall concensus. I said probably, but I have concerns about his weight, and just a lot of minor things. He has a lot to learn. Last year his team defense was bad - he rarely was in the right place.

Destined4Greatness
07-19-2005, 12:35 PM
I want him to start against teams with strong front courts. But teams that play small. Granger should get inserted.

Kegboy
07-19-2005, 12:39 PM
I want him to start against teams with strong front courts. But teams that play small. Granger should get inserted.

Rick will never juggle starting lineups.

Suaveness
07-19-2005, 12:44 PM
Harrison does look pretty good, but there are still those details which I don't think to be minor. The technicals worry me, the fouls do too. Those will definitely go down, as he will learn how to position himself better. But hopefully he learns to do that this year.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 12:48 PM
The topic of whether DH will start this season was discussed Sat night. I just don't see him starting this season for the reasons Brunner pointed out. Foul trouble. We also asked everyone at the party if DH is the long term answer at center for the Pacers. I forget the overall concensus. I said probably, but I have concerns about his weight, and just a lot of minor things. He has a lot to learn. Last year his team defense was bad - he rarely was in the right place.

i know he probably wont start...and i think the fact that rick has a tendency to be very veteran oriented will only add to the cause...

and the reasons mentioned are all valid...but i also think his performance actually might be a bit better if his confidence was a bit higher given the fact he would be starting...

as far as foul problems...as i said...hes probably gonna fight that for a while....and if he gets in early foul trouble, so be it....he sits on the bench till the second half...no biggie...if hes ineffective, he sits till the second half....hes young and he will definitely struggle with his consistency...

as far as team defense goes, i cant help but think those deficiencies might be a little less noticeable playing alongside jo, ron, and jack....

i guess i cant help but think starting might be the best recipe for his success...and i want him to succeed for what it would mean to the pacers success for many years to come...

however i realize the focus isnt gonna be harrisons success and growth and i also realize the odds of him starting are quite low...

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 12:56 PM
Team defense? Just what do you want Harrison to do differently for team defense?

His job is to push his man out of the paint. If he does that, he's also done his part for "team defense."

(Jeff has the same role, btw. That's why I cringe when he has to move around and 'front' his man because he's too weak to play between his man and the basket.)

SoupIsGood
07-19-2005, 01:05 PM
Harrison will start this year. He is in great shape, it's all uphill from here.

Los Angeles
07-19-2005, 01:10 PM
Harrison will start this year. He is in great shape, it's all uphill from here.
Technically, he's already started for the pacers, so you can stop holding your breath now.

:rain:

;)

SoupIsGood
07-19-2005, 01:13 PM
Technically, he's already started for the pacers, so you can stop holding your breath now.

:rain:

;)

Yeah, you're right. He's already accomplished first goal, starting as a rookie. I guess now all that's left is being an all-star. :sunshine:

foretaz
07-19-2005, 01:17 PM
Team defense? Just what do you want Harrison to do differently for team defense?

His job is to push his man out of the paint. If he does that, he's also done his part for "team defense."

(Jeff has the same role, btw. That's why I cringe when he has to move around and 'front' his man because he's too weak to play between his man and the basket.)

though i cant speak for him....i have a feeling buck was speaking more of rotations...which is kinda what i had in mind...

but as u mention, he does provide some other things in the way of defense when hes on the floor...muscle, size, and the ability to block shots and change shots...i also feel with ron, jo, and jack on the floor, because of their individual defensive capabilities, the rotations are not as frequent and any lapses might be overcome by the others and their defensive prowess

RWB
07-19-2005, 01:18 PM
Harrison will start this year. He is in great shape, it's all uphill from here.

Whoa, whoa, whoa Soup. Let's give Dale the first 6 minutes to at least bruise some ribs on the opposing center first. :D

3Ball
07-19-2005, 01:45 PM
I agree. You don't earn a starting job in the summer league. You earn it in the NBA, and Harrison hasn't earned anything yet. He may be starting by the end of the season, but he shouldn't start day one. Far better to let me keep burning to start rather than start him early and be forced to bust him down when he hits a wall.

beast23
07-19-2005, 01:49 PM
If DD is re-signed, I'd bet that he starts because Rick wouldn't want him to stiffen up on the bench after pre-game warm-ups.

However, if DD is no re-signed, then I'd like to see Harrison start every game, play the first 6 minutes, then give way to Foster or whomever for the remainder of the first quarter. After that, man the center position with whatever the game calls for.

Foster plays equally well, whether he starts or comes off the bench. In fact, he might even be more motivated in a subs role. It would be good to not just make a statement to Harrison, but to demonstrate it, that Rick, Larry and Donnie believe his future will be as a starting center for the Pacers. It would bolster his confidence, and it would get him used to playing with the starting unit.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 02:17 PM
though i cant speak for him....i have a feeling buck was speaking more of rotations...which is kinda what i had in mind...

but as u mention, he does provide some other things in the way of defense when hes on the floor...muscle, size, and the ability to block shots and change shots...i also feel with ron, jo, and jack on the floor, because of their individual defensive capabilities, the rotations are not as frequent and any lapses might be overcome by the others and their defensive prowess

I don't know of very many defensive schemes in which the primary post defender is part of a rotation. That's the job of the weak-side defender. And although JO is a pretty good defensive C (as the primary post defender), I think we all agree that his defensive skills are best suited for the weak side (PF) where he can roam.

I don't want David roaming or rotating.

UncleBuck doesn't like his post defenders to play post defense, he prefers a zone in which they front the offensive player to deny the entry pass. Well, I don't think he really prefers it, but he has to stick with it justify Foster's minutes when some of us *beg* for a more physical player than Jeff.

Unclebuck
07-19-2005, 02:20 PM
Team defense? Just what do you want Harrison to do differently for team defense?

His job is to push his man out of the paint. If he does that, he's also done his part for "team defense."

(Jeff has the same role, btw. That's why I cringe when he has to move around and 'front' his man because he's too weak to play between his man and the basket.)

There is a lot more to team defense than what you mention. Like helping out on Pick and rolls (Dale is a master at it). Helping out on pin downs and other picks and screens. Switching out on smaller players. Helping and recovering. And so many times last season Harrison got lost in the mental aspects of defense.

Unclebuck
07-19-2005, 02:26 PM
I don't know of very many defensive schemes in which the primary post defender is part of a rotation. That's the job of the weak-side defender. And although JO is a pretty good defensive C (as the primary post defender), I think we all agree that his defensive skills are best suited for the weak side (PF) where he can roam.

I don't want David roaming or rotating.

UncleBuck doesn't like his post defenders to play post defense, he prefers a zone in which they front the offensive player to deny the entry pass. Well, I don't think he really prefers it, but he has to stick with it justify Foster's minutes when some of us *beg* for a more physical player than Jeff.



I have to respond to this also

Let me forst correct you, Yes I do prefer fronting the post with only one exception. You can't front Shaq. But every other post player I want fronted. That includes any post up player even if a point guard posts up. It has nothing to do with justifying Foster.

If DH and J.O start I worry about one of them having to defend the quick power fowards that Jeff plays so well.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 02:49 PM
I have to respond to this also

Let me forst correct you, Yes I do prefer fronting the post with only one exception. You can't front Shaq. But every other post player I want fronted. That includes any post up player even if a point guard posts up. It has nothing to do with justifying Foster.

If DH and J.O start I worry about one of them having to defend the quick power fowards that Jeff plays so well.

in alot of cases i think these teams with the 'quick' power forwards would have far more difficult defending jo and harrison in the post than we would have defending them...its the old matchup issue and going small dilemma...there are always give and takes....but i think jo and harrison present far more problems for other teams versus the problems they may cause us by having them in together...

and i just really like the idea of teams having to play jo a bit more honest...especially where the other big man is concerned...even if its just primarily in the beginning of the game....where he could get off to a good start...he also wouldnt have to play the better post player....though david might not be totally suited for that role, ie fouls etc....id still let him do it..

Destined4Greatness
07-19-2005, 03:50 PM
Harrison brings more to the defensive end than Foster. Yeah you can talk about how great foster is on the boards. But thats not enough. Especially when he gets his good rebounding numbers by grabbing 14 one day and 4 the next. Consistency has its benefits.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 03:55 PM
There is a lot more to team defense than what you mention. Like helping out on Pick and rolls (Dale is a master at it). Helping out on pin downs and other picks and screens. Switching out on smaller players. Helping and recovering. And so many times last season Harrison got lost in the mental aspects of defense.

Alright, if his man sets the high screen, then I want him to step out and trap, a la Dick-Harter-style.

Otherwise I want him to stay with his man. I don't want him to switch out on smaller players, and presumably he's guarding the other team's primary post threat so I don't want him helping and recovering - I want JO or Jeff or Dale or Austin or whomever to do that.

I'm never going to agree with you about fronting the post. That's always a sign of weakness. You only front the post when the offensive player is too good at establishing post position. I'm just always baffled, however - for as much as you love defense - by just how much you advocate a zone in the paint vs. man-to-man.

I've heard your "Rik Smits couldn't move" story for why you like your bigmen to be quick, but this seems to be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Anthem
07-19-2005, 04:39 PM
I've gotta go with Jay on this one. I hate fronting the post. Pretty much everything he said about Harrison is spot-on, too.

Jay, did you leave the dark side or did I join?

Will Galen
07-19-2005, 04:52 PM
Harrison will start this year. He is in great shape, it's all uphill from here.


"Uphill?" I agree.

Unclebuck
07-19-2005, 04:56 PM
Jay, I just believe the best way to stop a post player is to keep him from getting the ball. The best way to stop an offense is to cut off the pass they want to make. I wish the Pacers would play the pasing lanes a little more aggressively.

I can live with three quartering the post. That is what the Pacers basically did in the mid 90's under Brown. But in the late 90's they pretty much played behind the post and I did not think that was effective. I know you like to play behind the offensive player and push the guy out of position. That can work sometimes

I also hate double teaming the post so that is one reason why I want to keep the ball out of there.

Fronting does have drawbacks I realize that. You have to get good ball pressure, you have to have weak side help, and you can be open to dribble penetration and offensive rebounds. (Now I'm making the case for you) But overall I can live with the downsides. Most teams have trouble making that pass over two defenders into the post and many teams give up trying and often their offense boggs down

foretaz
07-19-2005, 05:04 PM
Jay, I just believe the best way to stop a post player is to keep him from getting the ball. The best way to stop an offense is to cut off the pass they want to make. I wish the Pacers would play the pasing lanes a little more aggressively.

I can live with three quartering the ost. That is what the pacers basically did in the mid 90's under Brown. But in the late 90's they pretty much played behind the post and I did not think that was effective

I also hate double teaming the post so that is one reason why I want to keep the ball out of there.

i dont like double teaming the post either....

but denying the ball and doubling the post are both done because of one basic thing....

u cant handle the guy with the ball defensively with one guy....and u also cant keep him from getting the kind of position that makes it very easy to score....

if u have a guy that is capable of playing the post player, both by being able to defend him one on one and also prevent him from getting great position, then u really dont need to front or double team....

and for quite some time, thats been a real problem as we ve always seemed to be a bit lacking in one or the other....

in a perfect world the only guy that u think about these alterior defensive strategies would be a guy like shaq....hes so big and strong that its tough to keep him from getting position and its tough to stop him one on one....

jeff is a good defender...problem is hes not good at keeping guys from getting position....

it remains to be seen how good a defender david can be....but he does appear to be able to keep guys from getting decent position....

Kegboy
07-19-2005, 05:06 PM
:lurk:

Isaac
07-19-2005, 05:19 PM
II think HULK would benifit greatly from a full season with DD. It would help him to such amazing extents. I think by the all star break he will be starting.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 05:57 PM
I've gotta go with Jay on this one. I hate fronting the post. Pretty much everything he said about Harrison is spot-on, too.

Jay, did you leave the dark side or did I join?

Jay = :sunshine: for David Harrison. :flirt:



++++++++++++++++


And I hate to say it, but it also looks like foretaz and I agree.

SoupIsGood
07-19-2005, 06:01 PM
:sunshine: :harrison: :sunshine:

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 06:03 PM
UB, let me turn this around 180 degress.

As JO shows - especially against Brian Grant or Rasheed - when you push a post player out far enough, they are out of their comfort zone and ineffective.

And most guys are ineffective at a closer distance than where JO must get pushed to. IOW, JO has more range.

Against Detroit, for example, they just don't care if JO gets the ball, because he's not going to be able to do anything from that far out.

And that's the best way to defend the post, because that only requires one defender. Everything you're talking about, again, is a zone defense concept, requires two defenders, and by its very definition leaves a big opening on the weakside that must be covered via rotations (and usually an undersized defender).

beast23
07-19-2005, 07:20 PM
UB, let me turn this around 180 degress.

As JO shows - especially against Brian Grant or Rasheed - when you push a post player out far enough, they are out of their comfort zone and ineffective.

And most guys are ineffective at a closer distance than where JO must get pushed to. IOW, JO has more range.

Against Detroit, for example, they just don't care if JO gets the ball, because he's not going to be able to do anything from that far out.

And that's the best way to defend the post, because that only requires one defender. Everything you're talking about, again, is a zone defense concept, requires two defenders, and by its very definition leaves a big opening on the weakside that must be covered via rotations (and usually an undersized defender).In principle, I agree with one-on-one coverage as well.

However Foretaz brings up a very good point. And if I may expand his statement a little bit, I believe he really should have said that besides Harrison, the Pacers have no one capable of (or willing to) prevent most opponents from establishing post position.

In 1999-2000, DD could let players catch the ball and had the quickness and jumping ability to still block or bother the shot.

But since his departure, we haven't had the manpower to adequately defend the post one-on-one. Despite Jermaine's quickness and jumping ability, I believe even he is "underpowered" to do so.

And I think that is why we have gone to fronting, with inconsistent success because of our limited perimeter pressure. As has been pointed out, to front the post effectively, you absolutely must have perimeter pressure. I think that pressuring the entry pass is most important, then comes weakside help.

With help from the weakside, from either Jermaine or Artest, we have adequate quickness to establish position behind the post player as the lob pass is being made. And that's why you see Jermaine and Artest draw so many charges.

The most important aspects of man-on-man (behind the post player) that I see are the that you are only consuming one defender to cover him, and you also have your man in perfect position to box out the post player on rebounds.

But I believe that the most important thing in defending is to make the opponent take more difficult shots. By conceding the pass into the post, unless you have adequate man-on-man post defenders, all you succeed in doing is to allow the ball to be controlled by your opponent in close proximity to the basket on a more frequent basis. And that will usually result in a higher field goal percentage by your opposition, in addition to possibly more fouls being called on your own post players.

I'm hoping that Harrision might be the solution to our problem. A resource that would allow us to mix and match post defenses, depending on our opponent. It would be great to finally have that versatilty.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 11:22 PM
Beast, I agree that we haven't had the manpower (really, since AD and Mark West left) to play the post straight-up. But if done right, I'm willing to concede the pass because the offensive player is still too far out. If it can't be done right, and Foster can't do it right and as you pointed out DD was excellent at using his athleticism to overcome his lack of lower body strength to really push guys out of the paint, then you've got to rely on a gimmick.

Really, my point all along is that UB was complaining that Harrison isn't as good at the gimmick defense, but I don't think its going to matter because once he and the refs figure each other out, he's going to be able to play it the right way, straight-up.

Who cares if he can't do the gimmick if he can play it straight-up?

Anthem
07-19-2005, 11:29 PM
Beast, I agree that we haven't had the manpower (really, since AD and Mark West left) to play the post straight-up. But if done right, I'm willing to concede the pass because the offensive player is still too far out. If it can't be done right, and Foster can't do it right and as you pointed out DD was excellent at using his athleticism to overcome his lack of lower body strength to really push guys out of the paint, then you've got to rely on a gimmick.

Really, my point all along is that UB was complaining that Harrison isn't as good at the gimmick defense, but I don't think its going to matter because once he and the refs figure each other out, he's going to be able to play it the right way, straight-up.

Who cares if he can't do the gimmick if he can play it straight-up?

Again, right on.

Unclebuck
07-19-2005, 11:35 PM
I hardly think fronting is gimmick defense. If you don't believe anything else I say believe that. Probably half the teams in the NBA front the post.

Jay I guess we disagree on this issue

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 11:52 PM
I hardly think fronting is gimmick defense. If you don't believe anything else I say believe that. Probably half the teams in the NBA front the post.

Jay I guess we disagree on this issue

Oh I believe more than half the teams front the post.

We disagree on why. There aren't many legit post defenders anymore - both the American and European centers have fallen in love with facing the basket and its becoming a lost skill (like the midrange jumper or the bankshot.)

I think the coaches sit around in the summer and say, "Damnit, we can't defend the post without fronting, let's figure out how to make it work without giving up a bazillion weak-side layups." You think the coaches actually prefer it.

Kegboy
07-20-2005, 12:29 AM
God I love this thread. Now that Larry's officially been axed, I want this thread to last until October instead.

foretaz
07-20-2005, 02:02 AM
i guess i agree with jay on this...kinda hard to believe...it seems so often i disagree with jay and agree with buck...but not this time....

i feel most front the post because they cant play the post straight up....its basically a version of the zone...and why do teams play zone?

because they cant matchup one on one....

why this has evolved this way? who knows for sure....it certainly would appear that peoples interest and skill is much greater on the offensive end versus the defensive end....thus u end up with many more skilled offensive players versus defensive....

it also might be attributed to the lack of many true centers in the league...and i guess thats why id really like to throw harrison in there...because he has a chance to develop into a true center with skills....and there are just so few of those....i really dont wanna hear about short arms and small hands.....its not like they are midget like....the guy is 7 feet and 280 and fairly athletic....he should be able to be coached on things like positioning, footwork, and technique that will turn him into a very good low post defender....

you then have 4 really good defenders in ur starting lineup....and that doesnt leave alot of holes to be constantly trying to cover for...

Jose Slaughter
07-20-2005, 02:36 AM
This is the first thread I have ever given a rating.

Excellent job guys

Peck
07-20-2005, 03:06 AM
I have no problem with a combo defense, some fronting some pushing from behind. However whoever plays needs to be able to do either adequately & unfortunately Foster is only able to be successfull at fronting the post.

Dale, even as old & decrepit as some of you make him out to be, can do both & do both very well.

Croshere can do both.

Pollard can't front the post but can push for position.

Harrison???? I know for fact he can push for position but I'm not sure about fronting & in fact I don't know that I ever really want him to.

My biggest problem with fronting the post is the damn fouls it draws on weakside layups.

Like I said I don't mind some fronting, but overall I want my post defenders actually able to defend the post. This is why I have never considered Foster to be the defender that some of you do. I think he is good vs. some players but overall he just never has impressed me & that was before Dale was even back on the team.

Unclebuck
07-20-2005, 08:44 AM
I think the coaches sit around in the summer and say, "Damnit, we can't defend the post without fronting, let's figure out how to make it work without giving up a bazillion weak-side layups." You think the coaches actually prefer it.


Yes I do. Today most coaches want their defense to be the thing that controls a game. Years ago, probably up until the mid 90's or maybe early 90's, coaches played more contain defense, close off the middle, make teams shoot jump shots. Watch the old games from the 80's, the defense was a lot different. Less pressure on the ball, and more players sagging in the lane.

Today most teams want to disrupt the offense, play the passing lanes, force teams to dribble penetrate with players who aren't capable of doing so.


Actually the whole reason for this thread and everything I've posted was to bring foretez and Jay together, and it's worked

ChicagoJ
07-20-2005, 09:56 AM
Actually the whole reason for this thread and everything I've posted was to bring foretez and Jay together, and it's worked

UncleBuck: Nobel Peace Prize Nominee.

Not only did you bring Foretaz and I together, which seemed virtually impossible, but you also got Anthem and I to agree, and that's no small task, either.

:star:

ChicagoJ
07-20-2005, 10:17 AM
Yes I do. Today most coaches want their defense to be the thing that controls a game. Years ago, probably up until the mid 90's or maybe early 90's, coaches played more contain defense, close off the middle, make teams shoot jump shots. Watch the old games from the 80's, the defense was a lot different. Less pressure on the ball, and more players sagging in the lane.

Today most teams want to disrupt the offense, play the passing lanes, force teams to dribble penetrate with players who aren't capable of doing so.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree.

The best defensive teams/ coaches play the post straight-up.

I still think this is a by-product of having less players with this particular skill than a conscious coaching decision.

We can name all of the "excellent" post defenders fairly quickly. Its not like every team even has one of them.

Shaq
Cliff Robinson
Brian Grant
Rasheed Wallace

(others? the rest of you can chime in here, too.)

(I'd consider guys like Dampier, Kurt Thomas, and Antonio Davis to be "capable" post defenders. :twocents: )

foretaz
07-20-2005, 10:29 AM
I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree.

The best defensive teams/ coaches play the post straight-up.

I still think this is a by-product of having less players with this particular skill than a conscious coaching decision.

We can name all of the "excellent" post defenders fairly quickly. Its not like every team even has one of them.

Shaq
Cliff Robinson
Brian Grant
Rasheed Wallace

(others? the rest of you can chime in here, too.)

(I'd consider guys like Dampier, Kurt Thomas, and Antonio Davis to be "capable" post defenders. :twocents: )

should i say artest, just so we have something to disagree upon?

seriously, id put brand, duncan and kg on that list as well....maybe even boozer and ratliff...

there...now theres got to be something in that group we can disagree on ;)

ChicagoJ
07-20-2005, 10:51 AM
I don't think we've seen Artest play enough post defense to form an opinion. In theory, he should be good against guys 6'6" to 6'9" because of his excellent leverage. But he's so good on the perimeter that you wouldn't put him there on purpose.

Brand and KG - I'd put them somewhere between "capable" and "excellent". I'm just not very high on Brand, he puts up nice stats and all but I don't see him as an impact player. KG is a great example of the type of defender Peck was describing - good at fronting the post or playing the post straight-up. I guess I view KG as a great defender because of his versatility, I don't know if I think his post defense is excellent or not.

Duncan - how did I leave him off? :blush:

Ratliff - you knew I'd disagree with this one. He's an excellent help-side shot blocker and rebounder, but I don't know that I'd call him an excellent post defender.

foretaz
07-20-2005, 11:04 AM
I don't think we've seen Artest play enough post defense to form an opinion. In theory, he should be good against guys 6'6" to 6'9" because of his excellent leverage. But he's so good on the perimeter that you wouldn't put him there on purpose.

Brand and KG - I'd put them somewhere between "capable" and "excellent". I'm just not very high on Brand, he puts up nice stats and all but I don't see him as an impact player. KG is a great example of the type of defender Peck was describing - good at fronting the post or playing the post straight-up. I guess I view KG as a great defender because of his versatility, I don't know if I think his post defense is excellent or not.

Duncan - how did I leave him off? :blush:

Ratliff - you knew I'd disagree with this one. He's an excellent help-side shot blocker and rebounder, but I don't know that I'd call him an excellent post defender.

actually i was just trying to be funny with regards to artest ;)

i guess my feelings on brand are like this....he reminds me of moses malone and my feelings of moses....i never personally liked moses...if he was playing on my team that wouldve been different....but he just didnt seem that polished on the offensive end....but damn was he effective....so much for polish.....

brands the same way in a lot of respects...i do think hes a very good defender....and while i personally think his offensive post game is better than some think on here, its definitely not polished and anything but spectacular....but hes damn effective...

i love kg....love everything about his game...defense, offense, competitive fire, etc....i think ive said enuff on that before....

ratliff....well...yea maybe i knew ud disagree....i guess i think he can do a pretty decent job one on one against the great post players...duncan, kg, jo, etc.....of course thats when healthy, which is a whole other story...of course to be truthful i havent seen him play that much of late and he is getting older...