PDA

View Full Version : Breaking: Brown out as Pistons coach



Pages : [1] 2

McClintic Sphere
07-18-2005, 02:44 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2110640

Los Angeles
07-18-2005, 02:46 PM
I'm shocked.

Shocked.

SHOCKED, I tell you!



;)

Shade
07-18-2005, 02:49 PM
:wave:

I told Kstat I didn't see how that last article indicated that LB would be back.

McClintic Sphere
07-18-2005, 02:50 PM
Let the Flip Saunders/Darko Milicic era begin!

indygeezer
07-18-2005, 02:51 PM
I love it when they write it as if it were a done deal but then say "are moving closer".


The interesting point IMHO is whether they write into the buy-out a non-competition clause. Make it so he can't coach at all for a year or even until this contract is exhausted.....or whether they just let him walk and do whatever he pleases. (Somehow I don't see that happening)

Shade
07-18-2005, 02:52 PM
So...

Larry Brown in New York? Could he actually make the Knicks a playoff team again?

foretaz
07-18-2005, 02:54 PM
you dont spend all this time figuring out how brown can be the coach...

he already was the coach....

you spend all this time figuring out a way that all parties involved can move on without him being the coach.....

and with everyone wanting to look like the good guy....and everyone really being a bad guy....its kinda hard....hence takes time...

should be interesting....im most curious about how they prevent him from being the knicks coach....

cause u gotta believe thats whats been at the root of the problem...no way they let him do that.....and for that they probably were forced to pay alot of money.... too funny...

PacerFan31
07-18-2005, 02:55 PM
So...

Larry Brown in New York? Could he actually make the Knicks a playoff team again?

Knicks....playoffs.....Isiah..... :laugh:

McClintic Sphere
07-18-2005, 02:56 PM
So...

Larry Brown in New York? Could he actually make the Knicks a playoff team again?

Icy manipulator, where is the defensive talent on that team, even in the most hopeful sense? Starbury would have to be traded immediately to make it work. I mean he barely managed with Iverson, and Channing Frye might be the new Darko.

Shade
07-18-2005, 02:59 PM
Icy manipulator, where is the defensive talent on that team, even in the most hopeful sense? Starbury would have to be traded immediately to make it work. I mean he barely managed with Iverson, and Channing Frye might be the new Darko.

Something tells me that Isiah would be just the guy to let LB come in and clear house.

Of course, good luck to Brown trying to unload those ungodly contracts.

Fool
07-18-2005, 02:59 PM
Brown can take milk drinkers to the playoffs.

Maybe not this year, but it wouldn't take long.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 03:02 PM
well, we are soon gonna find out which is a bigger issue with davidson....

his pocketbook or his ego....

and im guessing its his ego....meaning brown wont be coaching the knicks this year....

if its his pocketbook....then larry is on his way to the knicks....

im still betting ego....

bread
07-18-2005, 03:09 PM
Could it be that the Pistons are going to request compensation in the form of draft picks/players/cash from any team that hires him for the upcoming season? :whoknows:

Unclebuck
07-18-2005, 03:20 PM
Wow Marbury and Brown will be fun to watch. Brown might kill him 20 minutes into the first training camp practice.

Well, how does this effect the Pistons? I think Saunders is a good coach, but that team will miss Larry Brown, they will miss his aggressiveness. LB always gets his teams to play an aggressive style, and Saunders is a different type coach.

I think the Pistons will not be as good as they would have been with LB

foretaz
07-18-2005, 03:20 PM
Could it be that the Pistons are going to request compensation in the form of draft picks/players/cash from any team that hires him for the upcoming season? :whoknows:


see....they can only do that if he were to quit.....which is why brown and his agent have been doing all the posturing..saying he has every intention to coach...that hes healthy enuff to coach....that he only wants to coach the pistons...

which would force the pistons to fire him, if they dont want him back....

which doesnt entitle them to compensation then-they could only get compensation if he quit and then went to another team....they had said they wouldnt seek compensation if he went to the front office of cleveland...but coaching in new york wouldve been a different situation...and thats why brown has been doing all the posturing....

now for them to fire him....and keep him from coaching the knicks....i would guess they could only do that by basically paying him so much in a buyout that includes that clause....and that by accepting the buyout, brown would agree to not coach the knicks....

and im guessing that buyout was substantial....which means the pistons would rather pay him to not coach, to not do anything....than to allow the kniicks hire him-in which case the pistons would not be liable for anything.....

so how much will the pistons pay brown to not coach the knicks...and thereby satisfy their own ego..

Gyron
07-18-2005, 03:22 PM
Knicks....playoffs.....Isiah..... :laugh:

Which one of those words does not fit with the others???:laugh:

Shade
07-18-2005, 03:24 PM
Wow Marbury and Brown will be fun to watch. Brown might kill him 20 minutes into the first training camp practice.

Well, how does this effect the Pistons? I think Saunders is a good coach, but that team will miss Larry Brown, they will miss his aggressiveness. LB always gets his teams to play an aggressive style, and Saunders is a different type coach.

I think the Pistons will not be as good as they would have been with LB

I think the Pistons were toast with LB back this year. It could very well have been an implosion on the '97 level.

With that said, I'm glad to see Brown go, just because I'm tired of the controversy an hypocrisy. Flip will make sure the Pistons remain a good team, but they won't be Finals-caliber.

Short of major changes, I think we're the best team in the East, maybe the NBA, right now. Whether that changes depends on what changes other teams make. Cleveland is better, and Miami should be about the same. The Heat are the only East team that could beat us in a playoff series right now, IMO.

Btw Peck, there is major specualtion that Curry could end up in Atlanta. So I think that alone keeps the Bulls below us. ;)

Gamble
07-18-2005, 03:29 PM
Shade you don't think Boston will take the Atlantic division.

Shade
07-18-2005, 03:35 PM
Shade you don't think Boston will take the Atlantic division.

As of right now? Nope. I think NJ will take the Atlantic. Philly and Boston should battle for #2.

But I don't think any Atlantic team will be winning the East.

Unclebuck
07-18-2005, 03:35 PM
Shade, what if the Hawks get Curry and Joe Johnson and can trade Al for a decent point guard. They might be a decent team next season. Or at least have a base to buld upon.

Shade
07-18-2005, 03:38 PM
Shade, what if the Hawks get Curry and Joe Johnson and can trade Al for a decent point guard. They might be a decent team next season. Or at least have a base to buld upon.

Y'know, I was about to post a thread about that today. But, let's face it -- they're still the Hawks. They'll find a way to screw it up. ;)

Besides, you're not saying the Hawks are a Finals threat, are you? :spitout: ;)

ChicagoJ
07-18-2005, 03:39 PM
Shade, what if the Hawks get Curry and Joe Johnson and can trade Al for a decent point guard. They might be a decent team next season. Or at least have a base to buld upon.


Tinsley for Harrington?? :devil:

Cactus Jax
07-18-2005, 03:41 PM
Kstat : "At least this is finally over, and the Pistons can move on. Flip will do a better job than Brown possibly could have this coming season due to his health, and the Pistons will be better than ever. Larry's great but he alone doesn't make the Pistons a title contender, and Flip will fill the role just fine. Flip has always been underrated and will prove he's an elite coach this year."

*End Rant*

RWB
07-18-2005, 03:43 PM
So the LB situation is finally going to be resolved. Hopefully LB will join the other Pacer traitor Doktor Jerk Ramsey and just do radio commentary.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2005, 03:48 PM
I just wish we could've gotten rid of Brown after his second (or third) year in Indy.

Unclebuck
07-18-2005, 03:55 PM
Y'know, I was about to post a thread about that today. But, let's face it -- they're still the Hawks. They'll find a way to screw it up. ;)

Besides, you're not saying the Hawks are a Finals threat, are you? :spitout: ;)


Finals threat ? No. Playoff possibility as maybe the 8th seed. If everything falls into place, I suppose it's possible.

Hicks
07-18-2005, 04:13 PM
I think the Pistons will not be as good as they would have been with LB

Agreed; regardless of who replaces Brown, the Pistons just went down a notch. Their edge over the Pacers, unless we find a way to screw ourselves again, may be over.

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 04:18 PM
Agreed; regardless of who replaces Brown, the Pistons just went down a notch. Their edge over the Pacers, unless we find a way to screw ourselves again, may be over.


Thats tough to say. As long as Rasheed has the mantal edge on JO we might always be coming up short.

Shade
07-18-2005, 04:24 PM
Agreed; regardless of who replaces Brown, the Pistons just went down a notch. Their edge over the Pacers, unless we find a way to screw ourselves again, may be over.

The only edge the Pistons have had on us is health. At the very least, we've been even with them when relatively healthy.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 04:27 PM
The only edge the Pistons have had on us is health. At the very least, we've been even with them when relatively healthy.

weve had exactly one game where we played them with artest, jack, jo, and tins all healthy....

i very much liked how we looked in that game and the outcome right up until the extracurricular activities took place.....

Hicks
07-18-2005, 04:29 PM
All 4 played together 6 times, 4 times with JO starting.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 04:31 PM
All 4 played together 6 times, 4 times with JO starting.


yup...and i liked how they looked....and the success they had...

especially against the pistons...

Kstat
07-18-2005, 04:31 PM
First of all, props to SHade, you called it.




Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,556
Arcade Info

Re: Breaking: Brown out as Pistons coach
Kstat : "At least this is finally over, and the Pistons can move on. Flip will do a better job than Brown possibly could have this coming season due to his health, and the Pistons will be better than ever. Larry's great but he alone doesn't make the Pistons a title contender, and Flip will fill the role just fine. Flip has always been underrated and will prove he's an elite coach this year."

*End Rant*

Actually, I think we will be a little WORSE next year without Larry. However, I think we will be BETTER the following year, because Flip will do a much better job with Darko, Delfino and Arroyo. Larry is a brilliant guy, but Flip is right in that 2nd tier.

I've told you guys all along, Flip was and still is my #1 choice next year. I was a huge fan of his in Minnesota, and I think he's one of the top X's and O's guys in the buisness. Larry has the great upside, but there was also the possiblity that this year could blow up in his face. At least I don't have to worry about that anymore.


Their edge over the Pacers, unless we find a way to screw ourselves again, may be over.

I wasn't aware that we were buying out Rip Hamilton ;)

if only ONE positive comes from this, it's that Darko gets a new lease on life. It will be much easier to instill some confidence in him.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 04:32 PM
reported terms of the buyout, accoridng to WDFN

-Larry is forbidden from coaching in 2006.

-If Larry DOES want to coach the Knicks next year, he can, but he must forefit his buyout contract, and the Pistons will be entitled to compensation from the Knicks.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 04:36 PM
we might not ever know....but id love to know what that buyout number is...cause i bet its huge....

and i bet the compensation from the knicks could be interesting as well....i think, not sure, the league gets involved in that...but interesting nonetheless....

cmon kstat...get the buyout number...i wanna know...

i wanna know what the cost of bribing a coach is these days...

Kstat
07-18-2005, 04:37 PM
Also, to be clear: I'm very grateful to Larry for what he did here. I hold no ill will towards him, just like I hold none towards the Pistons for not wanting him back next year if he couldn't guarentee his health. In the end, we get a very good coach to replace a hall of fame coach. I can think of a lot of teams that wish they could have Flip Saunders as a contengency plan.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 04:40 PM
i wanna know what the cost of bribing a coach is these days...

Whatever you want to call it.

The word from the meeting is that the Pistons insisted that Brown wouldn't have a repeat of last year, and I stnad by them on that. I was willing to support keeping Larry, but not at the cost of putting up with Gar heard for another season.

And the exact number won't be official until the deal is signed, which supposedly won't happen till tomorrow. Both side are discussing some fine points.

Sollozzo
07-18-2005, 04:46 PM
yup...and i liked how they looked....and the success they had...

especially against the pistons...



Just a November win. Nothing too spectacular about that at all. Did we out play them? Yes, we beat them badly. But we can't say we are "even" with the Pistons when healthy because we beat them bad in the regular season.

In November, teams are just going through the motions. In the NBA, any team can beat any team on any given night. You cannot judge anything my meaningless November victoires. Atlanta beat Detroit by 16 points in December in Detroit. That's just as relavant as the Pacers beating them by 15 in November.

I get tired of people always using that November 19 game as some sort of proof that the Pacers are atleast even, if not better than Detroit. You don't prove anything in November.

If we're better than the Pistons when healthy, we'll beat them in a series.

Unclebuck
07-18-2005, 04:49 PM
No doubt you don't proove anything in November, but in both games at the Palace (Pacers also won in March) the Pacers saw the blueprint on how to beat the Pistons. Of course things are different now with a new coach.

Sollozzo
07-18-2005, 04:54 PM
No doubt you don't proove anything in November, but in both games at the Palace (Pacers also won in March) the Pacers saw the blueprint on how to beat the Pistons. Of course things are different now with a new coach.


Rip didn't play in the March game.(Obviously Ron and JO didn't either)

So yes, the Pacers had the blue print on how to beat the Pistons without Hamilton.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 04:58 PM
Rip didn't play in the March game.(Obviously Ron and JO didn't either)

So yes, the Pacers had the blue print on how to beat the Pistons without Hamilton.

I've long since given up trying to make the same point you are, Adam. Nobody wants to hear it.

Then again, summertime is the time of eternal optimism. It's that way for everybody.

In the end, it's cheap optimism, and we'll see if the Pacers have surpassed the Pistons in May. Not November, not March, but May.

Will Galen
07-18-2005, 05:11 PM
Agreed; regardless of who replaces Brown, the Pistons just went down a notch. Their edge over the Pacers, unless we find a way to screw ourselves again, may be over.

I think so too. Brown is good at countering another coachs adjustment.

Sollozzo
07-18-2005, 05:15 PM
I've long since given up trying to make the same point you are, Adam. Nobody wants to hear it.

Then again, summertime is the time of eternal optimism. It's that way for everybody.

In the end, it's cheap optimism, and we'll see if the Pacers have surpassed the Pistons in May. Not November, not March, but May.

Agreed.

I think the Pistons lose a little edge without Larry Brown, but this will still be the same core that always found a way to win playoff games they had to win.....until game 7 against SA.

The Pacers could win all 4 regular season games against Detroit next year, but it won't mean anything until we can actually eliminate them in 7 playoff games.

I'll regard Detroit as the better team until we can prove otherwise in the playoffs.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 05:19 PM
Agreed.

I think the Pistons lose a little edge without Larry Brown, but this will still be the same core that always found a way to win playoff games they had to win.....until game 7 against SA.

The Pacers could win all 4 regular season games against Detroit next year, but it won't mean anything until we can actually eliminate them in 7 playoff games.

I'll regard Detroit as the better team until we can prove otherwise in the playoffs.

I don't much like admitting the Spurs are a better team, either. But they beat us, so I have to live with it for another 10 months.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 05:33 PM
Just a November win. Nothing too spectacular about that at all. Did we out play them? Yes, we beat them badly. But we can't say we are "even" with the Pistons when healthy because we beat them bad in the regular season.

In November, teams are just going through the motions. In the NBA, any team can beat any team on any given night. You cannot judge anything my meaningless November victoires. Atlanta beat Detroit by 16 points in December in Detroit. That's just as relavant as the Pacers beating them by 15 in November.

I get tired of people always using that November 19 game as some sort of proof that the Pacers are atleast even, if not better than Detroit. You don't prove anything in November.

If we're better than the Pistons when healthy, we'll beat them in a series.

i think the point was more about the fact that a healthytins, jack, artest, and jo have only played the pistons once...and 6 games total....now it might not be much, now the results of those games was outstanding, but was really interesting was just how good they looked winning those games...

i realize anyone wanting to belittle the pacers chances will pass off what happened in those few games and specifically the nov 19 game...however anyone that watched and saw the comments made prior to the game by BOTH teams know it was not just some ordinary regular season game....the fact it blew up like it did only accentuates what kind of intensity level was involved...

yes it was only one game...and one game does not a series make....but its quite simply the only game where the new 'core' played the pistons...and they handled them quite comfortably....the team wasnt healthy as foster, johnson, bender, and reggie were out....but the new 'core' was intact, and that is why its significant....

i guess i dont really understand the pessimism....it seems to me a lot better case could be made for the fact that the only time the pistons have a decent chance at beating us is when members of the 'core' are injured....that seems to be much more than the case than anything else....

bottom line is when we ve been healthy and intact weve pretty much dominated them over the past few years....when we have not been, then its been a battle, a battle that we have won a few but lost a few more....

Kstat
07-18-2005, 05:35 PM
Like I said, Adam. Summertime breeds optimism in everyone. Of course, that and 50 cents will get me a bag of Doritos at the local 7-11....

Shade
07-18-2005, 05:37 PM
Just a November win. Nothing too spectacular about that at all. Did we out play them? Yes, we beat them badly. But we can't say we are "even" with the Pistons when healthy because we beat them bad in the regular season.

In November, teams are just going through the motions. In the NBA, any team can beat any team on any given night. You cannot judge anything my meaningless November victoires. Atlanta beat Detroit by 16 points in December in Detroit. That's just as relavant as the Pacers beating them by 15 in November.

I get tired of people always using that November 19 game as some sort of proof that the Pacers are atleast even, if not better than Detroit. You don't prove anything in November.

If we're better than the Pistons when healthy, we'll beat them in a series.

I think you're forgetting how competitive the series was with the Pistons in 2004. We were arguably equal with them until JO and Tins went down. And this while Detroit was still coming off its post-Sheed acquisition high.

And as for the Hawks loss, the Pistons were reeling after the brawl for a while. Lots of bad teams caught them shortly after the brawl, not just Atlanta.

Sollozzo
07-18-2005, 05:47 PM
Foretaz, and Shade....

November 19 was a much, much more important game for the Pacers than Detroit. The Pacers wanted to show the Pistons up. Do you all really think that game was that big of a deal for Detroit? Sure they may of talked the talk, but please, Detroit just won a title, they couldn't have cared much about a November game.

Detroit clearly doesn't play that great in the beginning of the season. But when it's May, and you HAVE to win, they win every important game.......except those against the Spurs.

Detroit has just played the Pacers team that has shown up in May. It's not Detroit's fault that Jermaine and Tinsley have been gimpy in May the past 2 seasons.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 05:58 PM
Foretaz, and Shade....

November 19 was a much, much more important game for the Pacers than Detroit. The Pacers wanted to show the Pistons up. Do you all really think that game was that big of a deal for Detroit? Sure they may of talked the talk, but please, Detroit just won a title, they couldn't have cared much about a November game.

Detroit clearly doesn't play that great in the beginning of the season. But when it's May, and you HAVE to win, they win every important game.......except those against the Spurs.

Detroit has just played the Pacers team that has shown up in May. It's not Detroit's fault that Jermaine and Tinsley have been gimpy in May the past 2 seasons.

i agree...i dont think its detroits fault theyve played us with an injured roster.....though i do hold them partially responsible for artest being gone....but thats another topic and not really the issue...nevermind the fact that they struggled with a pacers team that had no artest and a tinsley and jo that probably shouldnt have even been playing.....that was may..that was when they were supposed to be 'trying' as u say....

dont kid urself....like many pistons fans do, when they say that the nov game meant nothing.....thats a lame excuse for losing....the words spoken by everyone prior to the game and most importantly the game itself screams otherwise....im assuming u watched that game....that game was as intense as any playoff game....why do u think wallace snapped???? because he didnt care and was coasting??? hardly....

but really...thats not even the issue....the issue is how does the team look when the new core is together and healthy.....the core being jack, artest, tins and jo....and the answer is a resounding great.....u then throw in the fact that larry brown is gone and the pistons have always struggled to put away a less than full team and the future looks quite good where the pacers and pistons are concerned

Isaac
07-18-2005, 06:06 PM
I don't see the Pistons finishing any higher then 3rd in the Central this year, behind us and Chicago. They may even finish as low as 4th if the Cavs get Saras and Z back. I think the Pistons are in major trouble. He really held those guys together. I also don't really think Flip Saunders is much of a winner. Look at the talent he has had, and other then the one trip to the WCF, he's done virtually nothing.

I'm thrilled.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 06:08 PM
I don't see the Pistons finishing any higher then 3rd in the Central this year, behind us and Chicago. They may even finish as low as 4th if the Cavs get Saras and Z back. I think the Pistons are in major trouble. He really held those guys together. I also don't really think Flip Saunders is much of a winner. Look at the talent he has had, and other then the one trip to the WCF, he's done virtually nothing.

I'm thrilled.


wow...just wow...i thought i was the only one...i just said the last day or two regarding pecks remarks and the chicago bulls...that i agree with peck if he thought the bulls would finish 2nd in the division if they retained their free agents....its just that i thought they would finish second to the pacers....;)

thank god...im not alone ;) ;)

Kstat
07-18-2005, 06:37 PM
I don't see the Pistons finishing any higher then 3rd in the Central this year, behind us and Chicago. They may even finish as low as 4th if the Cavs get Saras and Z back. I think the Pistons are in major trouble. He really held those guys together. I also don't really think Flip Saunders is much of a winner. Look at the talent he has had, and other then the one trip to the WCF, he's done virtually nothing.

I'm thrilled.


:lmao:

Yes, look at all the talent Flip has had...there's Garnett, and........Garnett....

The best big man Garnett has ever played with was Rasho Nesterovic. That's not Flip's fault, it's the fault of their idiot GM that sacrificed 3 1st rounders for Joe Smith, and signed the two biggest contract year cancers in the NBA to be his starting guards.

There is a reason I wanted Flip so badly to be coach of the Pistons. People look too much at Flip's W-L record, and not enough at HOW he coaches. He's always impressed me every time I see the TWolves play. He's an excellent manager of timeouts, he runs a fluid motion offense, and he has a pertty good track record of working with young players.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 06:40 PM
:lmao:

Yes, look at all the talent Flip has had...there's Garnett, and........Garnett....

The best big man Garnett has ever played with was Rasho Nesterovic.

There is a reason I wanted Flip so badly to be coach of the Pistons. People look too much at Flip's W-L record, and not enough at HOW he coaches. He's always impressed me every time I see the TWolves play.

stop the presses....we agree on something.....

we both want very badly for flip to be the coach of the pistons...

i would say it probably would be more accurate, in my case to state it like this....

i want flip to coach the pistons very badly....;)

but either way we both want him on the bench next year ;)

Cactus Jax
07-18-2005, 06:44 PM
I think the Bulls are going the other way as in out of the playoffs. At some point Ben Gordon is going to pull an Al Harrington on the Bulls, and theur big players are getting either older or more questionable in Curry's regard (not that its his fault).

The Pistons will easily finish at least 2nd in the division and it's going to be a dog fight with Cleveland, Chicago, and Milwaukee to just stay out of the cellar.

SoupIsGood
07-18-2005, 06:51 PM
The Pistons weren't pumped up for Nov 19, and didn't really care one way or the other about it?

It's easy to say that, but the soul of their team, Ben Wallace, squawked like hell each time we beat them. I think they cared.

shags
07-18-2005, 06:51 PM
Nice to know the Pacers have already clinched a top 3 seed and a spot in the conference finals.

Congrats guys, hell of a run you've had. Will the banner(s) be raised at the first home game? :rolleyes:

I actually think Miami is the biggest winner in all of this, at least for next season.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 06:53 PM
Nice to know the Pacers have already clinched a top 3 seed and a spot in the conference finals.

Congrats guys, hell of a run you've had. Will the banner(s) be raised at the first home game?


Come on now, Shags. You're being too unrealistic.

Everybody knows they have the #1 seed all to themselves. ;)

Trapt1307
07-18-2005, 06:55 PM
I don't see the Pistons finishing any higher then 3rd in the Central this year, behind us and Chicago. They may even finish as low as 4th if the Cavs get Saras and Z back. I think the Pistons are in major trouble. He really held those guys together. I also don't really think Flip Saunders is much of a winner. Look at the talent he has had, and other then the one trip to the WCF, he's done virtually nothing.

I'm thrilled.

Incase you never realized, the Pistons were in the Conference Finals as a #1 seed with Michael Curry starting and no Rasheed Wallace BEFORE Detroit had anything to do with Larry Brown.

You people are giving Larry Brown too much credit and Flip Saunders too little credit. What had Brown done before he was hired by the Pistons? Absolutely nothing. Sure he got to the Finals with Philadelphia before they got spanked by the Lakers, but I think most of the credit there should go to Iverson and the fact that the Eastern Conference was incredibly weak at that time. If they would have been in the West, they would have most likely lost in the 1st round, and I think we all can agree on that. Hell, if that team was in todays Eastern Conference they probably would be a 5-7 seed as opposed to the 1 seed they were then.

What else has he done?

Flip on the otherhand was coach of a very competitive team in the West when the West was considered the "Varsity" and the East was considered the "JV" of the NBA. All he had there was Garnett for most of his tenure with the Wolves, just like all LB had with the Sixers was AI for the most part. The one season he actually had tools to work with, he took his team to the Conference Finals. And since you guys can use injuries as an excure, I guess I can say that he would have had the Wolves in the Finals if Sam Cassell did not get injured.

And if you think the Pistons are done roster tooling, you are out of your mind. At the very least, their TEAM will be much stronger next year, do to a deeper bench. Jason Maxiell and Alex Acker, the two rookies, have basically already made the team with their dominating summerleague preformances. Plus, the Pistons are expected to add another scorer or two to the bench via free agency. Don't be too surprised if both Allan Houston (if he's healthy ala Mcdyess last year) and Bonzi Wells are Pistons by the end of the summer. The best starting five in the league, with a bench/IR (Not sure on the new CBA rules) consisting of Mcdyess, Wells, Houston, Arroyo, Delfino, Darko, Hunter, Maxiell, and Acker is definitely a better team than "not finishing higher than 3rd in the Central".

Kstat
07-18-2005, 06:59 PM
Incase you never realized, the Pistons were in the Conference Finals as a #1 seed with Michael Curry starting and no Rasheed Wallace BEFORE Detroit had anything to do with Larry Brown.

You people are giving Larry Brown too much credit and Flip Saunders too little credit. What had Brown done before he was hired by the Pistons? Absolutely nothing. Sure he got to the Finals with Philadelphia before they got spanked by the Lakers, but I think most of the credit there should go to Iverson and the fact that the Eastern Conference was incredibly weak at that time. If they would have been in the West, they would have most likely lost in the 1st round, and I think we all can agree on that. Hell, if that team was in todays Eastern Conference they probably would be a 5-7 seed as opposed to the 1 seed they were then.

What else has he done?

Flip on the otherhand was coach of a very competitive team in the West when the West was considered the "Varsity" and the East was considered the "JV" of the NBA. All he had there was Garnett for most of his tenure with the Wolves, just like all LB had with the Sixers was AI for the most part. The one season he actually had tools to work with, he took his team to the Conference Finals. And since you guys can use injuries as an excure, I guess I can say that he would have had the Wolves in the Finals if Sam Cassell did not get injured.

And if you think the Pistons are done roster tooling, you are out of your mind. At the very least, their TEAM will be much stronger next year, do to a deeper bench. Jason Maxiell and Alex Acker, the two rookies, have basically already made the team with their dominating summerleague preformances. Plus, the Pistons are expected to add another scorer or two to the bench via free agency. Don't be too surprised if both Allan Houston (if he's healthy ala Mcdyess last year) and Bonzi Wells are Pistons by the end of the summer. The best starting five in the league, with a bench/IR (Not sure on the new CBA rules) consisting of Mcdyess, Wells, Houston, Arroyo, Delfino, Darko, Hunter, Maxiell, and Acker is definitely a better team than "not finishing higher than 3rd in the Central".


You bring up a good point.

The Pistons certainly don't have a finalized roster. There are a lot of quality players that they can bring in with the MLE. It should be interesting to see who Joe has his eye on.

I will say I doubt Acker is a rotation player, but I think Maxiell will get consistent minutes. Acker is going to get stuck behind Delfino, Arroyo and Hunter.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 07:01 PM
no...we are giving rick carlisle a bunch of credit...hes the one responsible for the pistons being where they have been the last 4 years...

larry took it over and was able, with a major assist from rasheed, to take it a step further to the finals...

flip saunders, contrary to what others might say and believe, is no larry brown or rick carlisle....

and that will be born out next year....

able
07-18-2005, 07:01 PM
****ADVICE****

Do not go in to "eat my shoe" bets with Kstat over this topic (or any other for that matter).

The man simply does not cover the bet.

We will see, I am in the "3rd" place camp.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 07:01 PM
no...we are giving rick carlisle a bunch of credit...hes the one responsible for the pistons being where they have been the last 4 years...

larry took it over and was able, with a major assist from rasheed, to take it a step further to the finals...

flip saunders, contrary to what others might say and believe, is no larry brown or rick carlisle....

and that will be born out next year....

Let me ask you a question:

what has Carlisle done that Saunders hasn't?

IMO, there is no coach in the NBA that is more like Carlisle than Flip Saunders. They both coach very similiar games.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 07:07 PM
Let me ask you a question:

what has Carlisle done that Saunders hasn't?

IMO, there is no coach in the NBA that is more like Carlisle than Flip Saunders. They both coach very similiar games.

hmmm...where to begin...

never lost in the first round of the playoffs...

never had a losing record...

won 60 games

been to the conference finals 50 percent of the time...

and i believe won coach of the year(though im not positive on that one)

skyfire
07-18-2005, 07:09 PM
****ADVICE****

Do not go in to "eat my shoe" bets with Kstat over this topic (or any other for that matter).

The man simply does not cover the bet.

We will see, I am in the "3rd" place camp.

We can always hope able :D

Kstat
07-18-2005, 07:11 PM
hmmm...where to begin...

never lost in the first round of the playoffs...

never had a losing record...

won 60 games

been to the conference finals 50 percent of the time...

and i believe won coach of the year(though im not positive on that one)

Give Carlisle 10 seasons, and I bet he manages to have a year where he misses the playoffs too.....

foretaz
07-18-2005, 07:12 PM
flip took over the team the same time kg joined the wolves.....

all he did was ride kgs coattails...

Bball
07-18-2005, 07:13 PM
Nice to know the Pacers have already clinched a top 3 seed and a spot in the conference finals.

Congrats guys, hell of a run you've had. Will the banner(s) be raised at the first home game? :rolleyes:

I actually think Miami is the biggest winner in all of this, at least for next season.

They are putting it up with our 61 Win Regular Season banner.

-Bball

foretaz
07-18-2005, 07:13 PM
Give Carlisle 10 seasons, and I bet he manages to have a year where he misses the playoffs too.....

umm...partner....if ever rick carlisle was gonna miss the playoffs....it seems last year woulda been the year....

now remind me again....how did flip do last year???

SoupIsGood
07-18-2005, 07:15 PM
Let me ask you a question:

what has Carlisle done that Saunders hasn't?




He has advanced past the first round more than once, never lost in the first round, and has also never missed the playoffs.


He has won COY.

He has won more division titles.

He has better regular season and playoffs winning percentages.

Dammit, you guys go way too quick for me. :censored:

Kstat
07-18-2005, 07:15 PM
umm...partner....if ever rick carlisle was gonna miss the playoffs....it seems last year woulda been the year....

now remind me again....how did flip do last year???

Put Cassell and Sprewell on the Pacers last year without new contracts, and the Pacers might win 20 games.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 07:17 PM
Put Cassell and Sprewell on the Pacers last year without new contracts, and the Pacers might win 20 games.

put cassell and sprewell on the pacers last year with carlisle as coach and we probably woulda played the heat in the ECF

SoupIsGood
07-18-2005, 07:17 PM
Put Cassell and Sprewell on the Pacers last year without new contracts, and the Pacers might win 20 games.

:rolleyes:

What happened to not making excuses, K? I thought they were for losers...

Kstat
07-18-2005, 07:26 PM
:rolleyes:

What happened to not making excuses, K? I thought they were for losers...

......and Flip missed the playoffs last year. Sounds like a losing season to me.

If having a bad, BAD team to coach is an excuse, than so be it. The TWolves simply were not a good team.

Thankfully, Flip won't have Kevin McHale providing players for him in his next job.

SoupIsGood
07-18-2005, 07:29 PM
......and Flip missed the playoffs last year. Sounds like a losing season to me.

Thankfully, Flip won't have Kevin McHale providing players for him in his next job.

:confused:

You better not get on any of us Pacer fans for making excuses, then.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 07:31 PM
:confused:

You better not get on any of us Pacer fans for making excuses, then.

He had a crappy team. I don't know really how much more that could have been expected of a guy coaching that circus of personal vendettas.

Injuries and bad calls are excuses. Simply not being good enough isn't one.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 07:38 PM
......and Flip missed the playoffs last year. Sounds like a losing season to me.

If having a bad, BAD team to coach is an excuse, than so be it. The TWolves simply were not a good team.

Thankfully, Flip won't have Kevin McHale providing players for him in his next job.

ummm...that team, for the most part, had made it to the western conference finals the year before....not sure how the team goes from being a wcf team and championship contender to a bad team.....everyone, including flip, thought they would challenge for the title....

now lets see...ricks pacers made it to the ecf the year before as well...brought back a similar team this past season, just like minny....was decimated by injuries and suspensions....yet still managed to make it to the playoffs and the second round as a 6th seed....

hmmmmm

SoupIsGood
07-18-2005, 07:40 PM
He had a crappy team. I don't know really how much more that could have been expected of a guy coaching that circus of personal vendettas.

Injuries and bad calls are excuses. Simply not being good enough isn't one.

Injuries and bad calls are excuses, but 'a team divided' isn't?

He had the talent, it was his job to make it click and keep them focused and competitive. It didn't happen.

Hicks
07-18-2005, 07:59 PM
Let me ask you a question:

what has Carlisle done that Saunders hasn't?

Wait a minute. Pick a side. A minute ago you were saying that people focus too much on the W-L column, and not enough on HOW he coaches, and now you turn around and want to compare their teams' successes.

Kstat
07-18-2005, 08:04 PM
Wait a minute. Pick a side. A minute ago you were saying that people focus too much on the W-L column, and not enough on HOW he coaches, and now you turn around and want to compare their teams' successes.


That was only because someone decided to take the approach that Carlisle was a laughably more successful coach than Saunders.

I still stand by my original statement, that Saunders's strength comes on his game management, and that isn't always reflected in the w/l column.

Hicks
07-18-2005, 08:08 PM
I don't find it a laughable statement. Rick is a COY winner, and won 3 division titles his first 3 years as a coach, and took our popcicle-sticks and tape of a roster to game 6 of the second round.

shags
07-18-2005, 08:23 PM
I don't find it a laughable statement. Rick is a COY winner, and won 3 division titles his first 3 years as a coach, and took our popcicle-sticks and tape of a roster to game 6 of the second round.

If you had asked me at the end of the regular season which available coach I would want if Larry Brown can't coach the Pistons, I would have said Flip Saunders. The fact that he's still available 3 months later makes this less of a hit, although it's definitely a downgrade. Saunders is a top 10 coach in my view.

But Carlisle's a top 5 coach. Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson (and Brown if he coaches) are the only better active coaches IMO.

Hicks
07-18-2005, 08:27 PM
If you had asked me at the end of the regular season which available coach I would want if Larry Brown can't coach the Pistons, I would have said Flip Saunders. The fact that he's still available 3 months later makes this less of a hit, although it's definitely a downgrade. Saunders is a top 10 coach in my view.

But Carlisle's a top 5 coach. Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson (and Brown if he coaches) are the only better active coaches IMO.

I'd agree with that. I like Flip Saunders, I'm just not ready to say he's as good as Rick Carlisle. I think saying he's top 10 while Rick's top 5 is a good way to describe it.

Los Angeles
07-18-2005, 08:29 PM
I'd agree with that. I like Flip Saunders, I'm just not ready to say he's as good as Rick Carlisle. I think saying he's top 10 while Rick's top 5 is a good way to describe it.
I'd like to see them go head to head in a series, to see what's what on this topic.

SycamoreKen
07-18-2005, 08:30 PM
I'm with Kstat on Saunders performance last year. His team had 2 major players get old quick in Spree and Cassell. Not to mention that the rest of the roster outside of KG was average at best. Put that team in the Atlantic/East whatever its called , and they run away with the division. The West still has the overall advantage as far as good teams go and Minny got caught freeflling at the wrong time. Besides, except for JO for KG, who would you trade from our team to their team for?

RSmits
07-18-2005, 08:31 PM
All else being equal, if you ask every team president in the league to choose between Carlisle and Saunders to coach their team next season, I firmly believe 9 out of 10 would choose Carlisle.

shags
07-18-2005, 08:34 PM
I'm with Kstat on Saunders performance last year. His team had 2 major players get old quick in Spree and Cassell. Not to mention that the rest of the roster outside of KG was average at best. Put that team in the Atlantic/East whatever its called , and they run away with the division. The West still has the overall advantage as far as good teams go and Minny got caught freeflling at the wrong time. Besides, except for JO for KG, who would you trade from our team to their team for?

That, and KG was more hurt than he or anyone let on. Remember, he didn't want to play in the All-Star game because he was hurt, but Stern put the kibosh on that, saying he'd have to go on the IR if he skipped the game.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 08:36 PM
All else being equal, if you ask every team president in the league to choose between Carlisle and Saunders to coach their team next season, I firmly believe 9 out of 10 would choose Carlisle.

with that one team being davidson and his pistons?

now...all this being said...i wonder if they give ole riley a call....

Los Angeles
07-18-2005, 08:37 PM
That, and KG was more hurt than he or anyone let on. Remember, he didn't want to play in the All-Star game because he was hurt, but Stern put the kibosh on that, saying he'd have to go on the IR if he skipped the game.
WHAT?! I was busy then and I missed that story. WTF was Stern thinking? He should always think of the health of the players first, the success of the teams second, and then the bull-crap publicity stunts.

This is just one more reason to hate the guy.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

shags
07-18-2005, 08:41 PM
WHAT?! I was busy then and I missed that story. WTF was Stern thinking? He should always think of the health of the players first, the success of the teams second, and then the bull-crap publicity stunts.

This is just one more reason to hate the guy.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Yeah, that was pretty bad. Popovich only played him like 15 minutes in the game, though.

Trapt1307
07-18-2005, 08:53 PM
with that one team being davidson and his pistons?

now...all this being said...i wonder if they give ole riley a call....


Would you drop Davidson already? Jesus Christ...I just started reading here not too long ago and it seems like nearly all of your posts are bashing Bill Davidson. The guy wins titles. It's as simple as that. You may not like the way he does it, but at least give him some credit. Obviously he's doing something right.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 09:02 PM
Would you drop Davidson already? Jesus Christ...I just started reading here not too long ago and it seems like nearly all of your posts are bashing Bill Davidson. The guy wins titles. It's as simple as that. You may not like the way he does it, but at least give him some credit. Obviously he's doing something right.

ummm....lemme think.....

no...

anything else i can do for u?

pacerwaala
07-18-2005, 09:56 PM
......and Flip missed the playoffs last year. Sounds like a losing season to me.

If having a bad, BAD team to coach is an excuse, than so be it. The TWolves simply were not a good team.

Thankfully, Flip won't have Kevin McHale providing players for him in his next job.


Kstat

Forget about what kind of team Minnesota was last year. In all of pro sports, I have never seen anything like what happened to the Pacers last year. Do you truly and honestly think that Flip Saunders would have done what Carlisle did here last year?. Heck, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson and Pat Riley would have jumped ship or filled up the microphone with excuses galore.

There are three categories in coaches -

1 - that can make bad teams look good. (Rick Carlisle, Larry Brown)
2 - that make the good teams look bad also.(lot of people here would put Isiah as an example)
3 - that make good teams look good, i.e don't screw up. (Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, Larry Brown and Rick Carlisle)

Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown are the only ones that can do both 1 and 3 above. Flip Saunders falls in category 3.

Flip Saunders is a good coach. He will definitely do good with a good team. What he can do with a bad team defines and distinguishes him from the rest of coaches. Carlisle has proven that he can have considerable amount of success with good and bad teams.

Shade
07-18-2005, 10:22 PM
......and Flip missed the playoffs last year. Sounds like a losing season to me.

If having a bad, BAD team to coach is an excuse, than so be it. The TWolves simply were not a good team.

Thankfully, Flip won't have Kevin McHale providing players for him in his next job.

Are you honestly saying that the TWolves' roster was worse than the Pacers' roster last year?

On top of that, as Foretaz said, Flip had basically the same team that made the WCF the previous year. Hardly a "crappy team."

Fool
07-18-2005, 11:22 PM
I think its slighting the players to an incredible degree to say in one breath that Brown was the reason they were in the Finals the last two years and then in the next that Carlisle is the reason they are anywhere at all the last 4. It would seem to me that the constant in all 4 years are a majority of the starters and the more reasonable argument is built around them.

As a Piston fan I am apprehensive about a change from an already HOF coach to a guy with questionable history (no I don't want to argue that point). Joe Dumars is the reason the players are on the team and a big part of why they've been where they've been the last half decade, so far his questionable coaching moves have paid off. So we'll see. Are we weaker, probably. Will it be good for the long run, maybe. Are we going to finish 3rd in our own division? Who knows.

From a Pacer perspective I would be licking my chops at what seems to be a possibly weaker team then last year. If its going to happen, this looks like as good a year as any. I can see the "if our team was healthy" argument, as the Piston fans used that against the Nets in 03 and the Lakers in 88. It might be true. Get your team to the finish line healthy and the world will find out. I honestly hope it finally happens as I know its infuriating as a fan to watch and wonder "what if".

Shade
07-18-2005, 11:29 PM
I think its slighting the players to an incredible degree to say in one breath that Brown was the reason they were in the Finals the last two years and then in the next that Carlisle is the reason they are anywhere at all the last 4. It would seem to me that the constant in all 4 years are a majority of the starters and the more reasonable argument is built around them.

As a Piston fan I am apprehensive about a change from an already HOF coach to a guy with questionable history (no I don't want to argue that point). Joe Dumars is the reason the players are on the team and a big part of why they've been where they've been the last half decade, so far his questionable coaching moves have paid off. So we'll see. Are we weaker, probably. Will it be good for the long run, maybe. Are we going to finish 3rd in our own division? Who knows.

From a Pacer perspective I would be liking my chops at what seems to be a possibly weaker team then last year. If its going to happen, this looks like as good a year as any. I can see the "if our team was healthy" argument, as the Piston fans used that against the Nets in 03 and the Lakers in 88. It might be true. Get your team to the finish line healthy and the world will find out. I honestly hope it finally happens as I know its infuriating as a fan to watch and wonder "what if".

Here's something that even Kstat should acknowledge. The Pistons were not a championship-caliber team until the trade for Sheed. At best, Brown would have taken the Pistons to the ECF -- same as Carlisle did the previous season. It was pretty clear the Pacers were a better team before that trade. Kstat, in his heart of hearts, knew this as well. And thus, his infamous anti-Pistons rant was born.

So, no, Brown didn't put that team "over the hump" -- Sheed did.

Kegboy
07-19-2005, 12:29 AM
Flip is little more than a poor-man's Greg Popovich. They both stabbed a coach in the back after an MVP-caliber player fell into their lap. The difference is, Pop won 3 titles, Flip got out of the first round once.

NorCal_Pacerfan
07-19-2005, 02:12 AM
I think it's great news for the Pacers that LB won't be in Detroit. But the season will tell the real story. I can't wait. Let's get on with it already! ;)

SycamoreKen
07-19-2005, 02:14 AM
Flip is little more than a poor-man's Greg Popovich. They both stabbed a coach in the back after an MVP-caliber player fell into their lap. The difference is, Pop won 3 titles, Flip got out of the first round once.

If you can find any Spurs fans still unhappy with what happened to Hill then they are not very smart. Obviously the right decision was made there since he has had how many coaching jobs in the NBA since?

RWB
07-19-2005, 08:27 AM
I'm with Kstat on Saunders performance last year. His team had 2 major players get old quick in Spree and Cassell.

Ken, what would you consider Reggie and Dale last year?

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 11:14 AM
Ken, what would you consider Reggie and Dale last year?


Reggie and Dale were great down the stretch last year.

Cassell and Spree were banged up.

Hicks
07-19-2005, 11:32 AM
Reggie and Dale were great down the stretch last year.

Cassell and Spree were banged up.

Unless you want to say Minny had it worse than us last year, who cares?

RWB
07-19-2005, 11:35 AM
Reggie and Dale were great down the stretch last year.

Cassell and Spree were banged up.

Adam, Ken mentioned age in being a factor having an effect on how the Wolves did and how Saunders was perceived as a coach. I am merely pointing out the Pacers had two oldsters' yet they somehow made a difference (ie: I don't buy the age of Cassell and Sprewell for the Wolves demize).

Reggie Miller Aug. 24, 1965
Dale Davis Mar. 25, 1969
Sam Cassell Nov. 18, 1969
Lat Sprewell Sept. 8, 1970


P.S. Not trying to give Ken a hard time here. I'm a Sycamore supporter to.

Kegboy
07-19-2005, 12:29 PM
If you can find any Spurs fans still unhappy with what happened to Hill then they are not very smart. Obviously the right decision was made there since he has had how many coaching jobs in the NBA since?

Uh oh. I'd run before Jay reads that.

SycamoreKen
07-19-2005, 12:42 PM
Ken, what would you consider Reggie and Dale last year?

I agree that age wasn't the only factor with Sam and Spree, their well displayed cases of "meitous" were as much a problem. We all know that Reggie took his game back up to a level that he hadn't needed to be at before the brawl. He is a special player that Spree and Sam can't approach. Dale has more heart than either of them.

This is a players league as we all know. If you have good players that are on the same page you win. If not you lose.

SycamoreKen
07-19-2005, 12:45 PM
Uh oh. I'd run before Jay reads that.

Jay's a Hill fan huh? I got down here after all of that happened, so I really can't make a call on it. I do know that Popovich didn't just take Duncan and Robinson and coast to a titile. He built each of those teams to win and brought in the players to get the job done. He also has the respect of his players that few coaches gain.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 12:49 PM
If you can find any Spurs fans still unhappy with what happened to Hill then they are not very smart. Obviously the right decision was made there since he has had how many coaching jobs in the NBA since?

Its hard to tell if that decision was right or not, and your critieria isn't really the right one. Bo had taken the Spurs, without Duncan, to the WCFs, so its not like Popovich's coaching is what turned that team around. My hunch is that Bo would have three rings now, if he were still coaching the Spurs.

Among other things, Bo elected to coach at Fordham with his son, but I'm not sure that the perfect combination of Wooden, Naismith, Knight, Holzman and Auerbach could turn that program around. I think when all of the Hill kids are out of the house, we might see Bo resurface - he was certainly a hard worker but he seemed to really be interested in being a parent, too, and that's hard for workaholic NBA coaches.

But the real issue was the way Pop stabbed Bo in the back when he canned him; for whatever reason Pop decided to "blacklist" Bo Hill and dump the players that had the gall to question it (Vinny Del Negro, Chuck Person).

It was utterly classless.

By the way, I was going to come in here and say that Flip reminds me a lot of Bo Hill - except that Flip was given a longer tenure. Both got to the WCFs, but both had a lot of first-round flameouts. I'd take either one if I had a mediocre team and wanted to get them to the playoffs - that seems to be their specialties.

Both were excellent offensive coaches and underrated as defensive coaches because they recognized that their teams - overall - would not be great defensive teams. They're good at maximizing a team's strengths but they aren't in the upper echelon of coaches and they've got mixed reviews for whether they can take a good team and make them a contender. Lastly, we just don't know if either could take a great team and make them a champion. After all, it seems that Pat Riley and Phil Jackson dominate that segment of the market and nobody else is even allowed to try.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 12:52 PM
Jay's a Hill fan huh? I got down here after all of that happened, so I really can't make a call on it. I do know that Popovich didn't just take Duncan and Robinson and coast to a titile. He built each of those teams to win and brought in the players to get the job done. He also has the respect of his players that few coaches gain.

I've softend on Pop a little bit over the years - I guess I really liked that article in ESPN*The Magazine on Pop, Manu, and the Spurs. He's clearly got excellent relationships with his players. But I still detest what he did to Bo.

Shade
07-19-2005, 12:59 PM
I've softend on Pop a little bit over the years - I guess I really liked that article in ESPN*The Magazine on Pop, Manu, and the Spurs. He's clearly got excellent relationships with his players. But I still detest what he did to Bo.

Methinks you detest more that he got rid of Chuck. ;) :uhoh:

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 01:01 PM
Methinks you detest more that he got rid of Chuck. ;) :uhoh:

Well, maybe... it cost the Rifleman a ring. :-p

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 01:16 PM
Unless you want to say Minny had it worse than us last year, who cares?


Where in my post did I imply that?

We obviously had it worse than any other team last year.

But its a fact that Reggie and Dale were great down the stretch for the Pacers, and Spree and Cassell were banged up.

Shade
07-19-2005, 01:19 PM
I still defy ANYONE to say that Minnesota's roster last season was worse than ours.

And how can basically the same roster form the previous year's WCF runner-up become a lottery team the following season, without at least some of that falling on the coach? Players don't age THAT fast.

Shade
07-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Where in my post did I imply that?

We obviously had it worse than about any other team last year.

But its a fact that Reggie and Dale were great down the stretch for the Pacers, and Spree and Cassell were banged up.

Who had it worse?

And if you say the Pistons, I'll punch you square in the face. :soapbox: ;)

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Adam, Ken mentioned age in being a factor having an effect on how the Wolves did and how Saunders was perceived as a coach. I am merely pointing out the Pacers had two oldsters' yet they somehow made a difference (ie: I don't buy the age of Cassell and Sprewell for the Wolves demize).

Reggie Miller Aug. 24, 1965
Dale Davis Mar. 25, 1969
Sam Cassell Nov. 18, 1969
Lat Sprewell Sept. 8, 1970


P.S. Not trying to give Ken a hard time here. I'm a Sycamore supporter to.


Age effects different players at different stages.

I believe that from the time Reggie Miller announced his retirement, he was playing on raw emotion.

Keep in mind that Dale Davis was practically given the entire season off until he signed with the Pacers. All he did was ride the pine.

I blame age on Cassell's demise. Cassell was 34 in 03-04, and had a fantastic all star season last year. I think Cassell drained alot of what was left in his tank that season, and by the 2004 playoffs he was banged up. He entered 04-05 at age 35, another year over. When you have a great season at the age of 34 like he did, it's going to drain you......Age caught up with him.

Sprewell......I don't know what to think about him. He's unhappy there, so I think he's just being a jerk and not giving it 100%.

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 01:21 PM
Who had it worse?

And if you say the Pistons, I'll punch you square in the face. :soapbox: ;)


Ugh, no one had it worse.

Will it make you happy if I take "about" out of my post?

Shade
07-19-2005, 01:24 PM
Ugh, no one had it worse.

Will it make you happy if I take "about" out of my post?

:nod:

As for Spree, he was probably just distraught about how his children were going to starve after the season ended. :(

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 01:27 PM
Its hard to tell if that decision was right or not, and your critieria isn't really the right one. Bo had taken the Spurs, without Duncan, to the WCFs, so its not like Popovich's coaching is what turned that team around. My hunch is that Bo would have three rings now, if he were still coaching the Spurs.



I don't understand the "without Duncan" part. In 1994-1995, Duncan wasn't on the Spurs mind.

Bo took the Spurs to the WCF's in 1995 when they had David Robinson, THE MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. David Robinson had a spectacular season in 1994-1995, and it would have been embarassing if the Spurs didn't reach the WCF's that year.

I don't see anything that impressive about taking your team to the WCF's when you have the MVP on your roster. They eliminated the Nuggets and the Lakers, teams they were superior to. David Robinson in his prime that season was as great as anyone else, and was able to dominate those 2 teams. He just got schooled when he met Hakeem.

The Spurs reaching the WCF's with a spectacular Drob says nothing about Hill's coaching ability. The Nuggets and the Lakers weren't exactly even with the Spurs.

Tim Duncan didn't enter the league until 1997-1998, and by the time Pop came, Robinson was aging.

RWB
07-19-2005, 01:30 PM
:nod:

As for Spree, he was probably just distraught about how his children were going to starve after the season ended. :(
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

sc
07-19-2005, 02:39 PM
Come On Kstat, backing up your team is fine, but sometimes you have to admit the truth.

And that is that the Pistons ran off the two best coaches in the NBA within the last three seasons.

Something is seriously wrong there

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 02:48 PM
I don't understand the "without Duncan" part. In 1994-1995, Duncan wasn't on the Spurs mind.

Bo took the Spurs to the WCF's in 1995 when they had David Robinson, THE MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. David Robinson had a spectacular season in 1994-1995, and it would have been embarassing if the Spurs didn't reach the WCF's that year.

I don't see anything that impressive about taking your team to the WCF's when you have the MVP on your roster. They eliminated the Nuggets and the Lakers, teams they were superior to. David Robinson in his prime that season was as great as anyone else, and was able to dominate those 2 teams. He just got schooled when he met Hakeem.

The Spurs reaching the WCF's with a spectacular Drob says nothing about Hill's coaching ability. The Nuggets and the Lakers weren't exactly even with the Spurs.

Tim Duncan didn't enter the league until 1997-1998, and by the time Pop came, Robinson was aging.

There weren't big roster differences between the teams Bo took to the WCF, the injury-decimated 21-win team, and the team Popovich took to a championship. Except they added Duncan to a team that Bo had already taken to the WCFs. So using your logic, it doesn't say much about Pop's coaching, either. And that's my point - it doesn't justify Pop's decision to fire Bo Hill and make himself coach just because they had the good fortune of adding Duncan to a WCF-caliber roster.

Since86
07-19-2005, 05:38 PM
This story just gets nutter and nutter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2111596

"I take umbrage with the Pistons, or sources, saying it's a buyout," Glass said Tuesday morning. "A buyout encompasses a mutual agreement, and that's not what is happening. Larry Brown is saying, 'I want to coach the Pistons,' and they want to pay him off for whatever reason."

Would Brown sign an agreement that would prohibit him from coaching next season?

"Absolutely not," Glass said.


Hmmm, I wonder why. :confused: :rolleyes:

sweabs
07-19-2005, 05:42 PM
This story just gets nutter and nutter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2111596

"I take umbrage with the Pistons, or sources, saying it's a buyout," Glass said Tuesday morning. "A buyout encompasses a mutual agreement, and that's not what is happening. Larry Brown is saying, 'I want to coach the Pistons,' and they want to pay him off for whatever reason."

Would Brown sign an agreement that would prohibit him from coaching next season?

"Absolutely not," Glass said.


Hmmm, I wonder why. :confused: :rolleyes:

The longer this goes on, the more I'm loving it. :devil:

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 05:58 PM
There weren't big roster differences between the teams Bo took to the WCF, the injury-decimated 21-win team, and the team Popovich took to a championship. Except they added Duncan to a team that Bo had already taken to the WCFs. So using your logic, it doesn't say much about Pop's coaching, either. And that's my point - it doesn't justify Pop's decision to fire Bo Hill and make himself coach just because they had the good fortune of adding Duncan to a WCF-caliber roster.


Except for the fact that when Pop came, Drob was on the downswing of his career. Drob wasn't the dominate force after the injury.

Bo had Drob in his best NBA season ever. It would have been a total embarassment not to get to the NBA finals. I'm not justifying the firing whatsoever, but beating the 95 Nuggets and Lakers to get to the WCF's with the MVP isn't that spectacular.

Pop started coaching the Spurs in 1997-1998, correct? That was 3 YEARS after Drob's spectacular MVP season. Drob was 29 in his MVP season, and 32 when Pop took over. He averaged about 6 more points in his MVP 94-95 season than he did in 97-98, Pop's first year. He then only averaged about 16 points in 1999, the Spurs first title year, a far cry from 4 years before. His game depreciated every year.

Your tone of your post suggests that Duncan was added to the same team. That's just false. When Duncan was around, Drob wasn't even close to how he was in 1994-1995.

Since when is class important to franchises anyway? I don't think anyteam around the league would view Bird's firing of Thomas to be "classy." Especially since JO thought he'd be the coach.

But Bird thought it had to be done. It's a cut throat business.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 06:34 PM
Zeke was fired because he was an idiot.

The similar situation would be if Bird fired Carlisle now - after our season from Hell - and named himself coach. Just like Pop firing Bo Hill during the season in which the Spurs starting frontcourt of Robinson, Person and Elliot, missed something like 200 out of 246 games. (Chuck - all 82, David - all but one, Sean - over half).

foretaz
07-19-2005, 06:39 PM
Since when is class important to franchises anyway? I don't think anyteam around the league would view Bird's firing of Thomas to be "classy." Especially since JO thought he'd be the coach.

But Bird thought it had to be done. It's a cut throat business.

not sure if other teams think the thomas firing was classy or not....

intelligent??? yes....

classy?? dunno...

Shade
07-19-2005, 06:55 PM
This story just gets nutter and nutter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2111596

"I take umbrage with the Pistons, or sources, saying it's a buyout," Glass said Tuesday morning. "A buyout encompasses a mutual agreement, and that's not what is happening. Larry Brown is saying, 'I want to coach the Pistons,' and they want to pay him off for whatever reason."

Would Brown sign an agreement that would prohibit him from coaching next season?

"Absolutely not," Glass said.


Hmmm, I wonder why. :confused: :rolleyes:

LB's determined to drag the Pistons through the mud on his way out the door, isn't he? :devil:

The funniest thing is, he's got Detroit by the balls here. If he goes, they have to pay him the full $$$ from his contract, and if he stays, it will be an utter collapse ala '97.

Sollozzo
07-19-2005, 07:03 PM
not sure if other teams think the thomas firing was classy or not....

intelligent??? yes....

classy?? dunno...


Right, it's intelligent moves that matter.

I doubt you'll find many fans of other teams that say firing Zeke that way, while leading JO on, was "classy."

But it doesnt matter. It's a cut throat business.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 07:36 PM
LB's determined to drag the Pistons through the mud on his way out the door, isn't he? :devil:

The funniest thing is, he's got Detroit by the balls here. If he goes, they have to pay him the full $$$ from his contract, and if he stays, it will be an utter collapse ala '97.

Not really.

A) The Pistons could simply re-assign him within the organization. Brown could either refuse or quit.

B) The Pistons could list him as physically unfit to coach, and hire a replacement. Brown's doctors could not give him a full bill of health.

Again, Brown is trying to look like the good guy on the way out, but the Pistons have other means of displacing him if he wants to pitch a fit over it.

The only way Brown gets the Pistons to agree to fire him, is if Brown agrees to drop the final 3 years of his deal. In that case, nobody in the organization will care what the terminology is.

Shade
07-19-2005, 07:38 PM
Not really.

A) The Pistons could simply re-assign him within the organization. Brown could either refuse or quit.

B) The Pistons could place him as physically unfit to coach, and hire a replacement. Brown's doctors could not give him a full bill of health.

Something tells me that if the Pistons were able to do either, they would have by now.

A) Is this in his contract?
B) Good luck. That could very well stretch this thing out quite a bit longer, and I don't think Detroit wants to do that.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 07:40 PM
Something tells me that if the Pistons were able to do either, they would have by now.

A) Is this in his contract?
B) Good luck. That could very well stretch this thing out quite a bit longer, and I don't think Detroit wants to do that.

It isn't up to the Pistons anymore, it's up to Brown. The Pistons have legal recourse to fire him, since his health makes him unreliable. They can't be forced to keep him if he can't tell them that he's still physically able to coach.

Brown can agree to the buyout, agree to quit, or sit behind a desk till 2008.

I expect all this to get straightened out in a few days. This is just Brown's agrent trying to squeeze every last bit of PR and $$$ out of this fiasco. Neither Joe nor Larry want this to drag out any longer than it has to.

Shade
07-19-2005, 07:42 PM
It isn't up to the Pistons anymore, it's up to Brown. The Pistons have legal recourse to fire him, since his health makes him unreliable. They can't be forced to keep him if he can't tell them that he's still physically able to coach.

Brown can agree to the buyout, agree to quit, or sit behind a desk till 2008.

Once again, were that the case, I'm sure it would have happened already. Do you really think Brown would turn down buyout $$$ if they could fire him w/o paying him anything?

Shade
07-19-2005, 07:43 PM
I expect all this to get straightened out in a few days. This is just Brown's agrent trying to squeeze every last bit of PR and $$$ out of this fiasco. Neither Joe nor Larry want this to drag out any longer than it has to.

Didn't I hear this once before, about a week or so ago? ;)

Kstat
07-19-2005, 07:44 PM
Once again, were that the case, I'm sure it would have happened already. Do you really think Brown would turn down buyout $$$ if they could fire him w/o paying him anything?

Um, they already OFFERED Brown a desk job. They can place them there without his consent if they want. He's an employee, and they can promote him if they wish. He can't do a thing about it.

And no, I don't think it would have happened already, because I don't think they WANT to screw him over by giving him a desk job. But if Brown's agent wants to demand that they fire him AND pay him, he's leaving the Pistons little choice.

In the end, Brown will put his cards on the table, the Pistons will lay out their cards, and they'll come to a mutual agreement. This is all just posturing.

I doubt Brown or his agent SERIOUSLY think the Pistons will simply fire him AND pay his salary. They're just doing this to make Larry look like the symathetic figure in this.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 07:45 PM
Didn't I hear this once before, about a week or so ago? ;)

That was different. Both sides were trying to decide if Larry was coming back or not. The big hurdle has since been cleared. This is just a fine point.

Shade
07-19-2005, 07:48 PM
Um, they already OFFERED Brown a desk job. They can place them there without his consent if they want. He's an employee, and they can promote him if they wish. He can't do a thing about it.

And no, I don't think it would have happened already, because I don't think they WANT to screw him over by giving him a desk job. But if Brown's agent wants to demand that they fire him AND pay him, he's leaving the Pistons little choice.

I'm not so sure about that. He could easily argue that he's not capable of doing a desk job, that he only has the knowledge to coach. Or that a desk job could compromise his health more than a coaching position.

Trust me, this could get VERY sticky if Brown's agent is smart enough.

Shade
07-19-2005, 07:49 PM
That was different. Both sides were trying to decide if Larry was coming back or not. The big hurdle has since been cleared. This is just a fine point.

I don't think so. Brown has already turned down the buyout, so what's left? Either the Pistons fire him, or he remains.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 07:51 PM
I'm not so sure about that. He could easily argue that he's not capable of doing a desk job, that he only has the knowledge to coach. Or that a desk job could compromise his health more than a coaching position.

Trust me, this could get VERY sticky if Brown's agent is smart enough.

The stickier this gets, Brown loses just as much as the Pistons. Neither side is dumb enough to drag this out like Phil/Shaq vs Kobe.

Brown's desire to coach will overrule his desire for cash, and the Pistons desire to be rid of him will overrule them caring over the terminology of the deal, and in the end, Brown will get fired, but the Pistons wont be on the hook for the cash.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 07:51 PM
It isn't up to the Pistons anymore, it's up to Brown. The Pistons have legal recourse to fire him, since his health makes him unreliable. They can't be forced to keep him if he can't tell them that he's still physically able to coach.

Brown can agree to the buyout, agree to quit, or sit behind a desk till 2008.

ummm...ur unsuccessfully reaching here....

he just got done coaching the team all the way into and thru the playoffs....

hes had surgery to fix whatever problems he had....and by all reports he will be in at least as good as shape as he was last year and definitely not worse...

now, i agree this was browns plan all along....the master manipulators plan started long ago...

but hes got them over a barrel this time...

they do not have legal recourse to fire him for being unreliable due to health reasons....that would actually be illegal....but beyond that, its inaccurate...and he has stated hes physically able to coach....where have u been? hes done so numerous times, as has his agent...

like i said....this soap opera is hilarious....two parties that truly deserve each other....

oh and btw most head coaching contracts do not allow u to just 'reassign' the coach to other duties...for the same reason a coach cant just quit and go coach another team without some sort of consequences, a team just cant fire a coach and not let him pursue employment, even if they would honor the contract....now the coach could choose not to work...but could still seek employment elsewhere as the contract had been broken when their tenure on the bench had been ended....the team breaks that contract by removing him from his duties and is therefore obligated to pay....most often a settlement is reached...and as part of that settlement, if that coach goes elsewhere the original team is not obligated to pay anymore, and in exchange for that monetary concessioon the new team does not typically have to provide compensation to the original team...

Kstat
07-19-2005, 07:56 PM
hes had surgery to fix whatever problems he had....and by all reports he will be in at least as good as shape as he was last year and definitely not worse...

He was fired because he could not guarentee that he wouldn't be missing more games next year, and his doctors couldn't guarntee that either. The Pistons are not obligated to keep a coach that they can't rely on.

That's the reason he was let go. They asked for Brown's word, and he couldn't give it, and that was it.

Chances are he'll be on and off again with the Knicks next year, just as he was last year. I guarentee he doesn't last all 82 games.

Shade
07-19-2005, 07:59 PM
ummm...ur unsuccessfully reaching here....

he just got done coaching the team all the way into and thru the playoffs....

hes had surgery to fix whatever problems he had....and by all reports he will be in at least as good as shape as he was last year and definitely not worse...

now, i agree this was browns plan all along....the master manipulators plan started long ago...

but hes got them over a barrel this time...

they do not have legal recourse to fire him for being unreliable due to health reasons....that would actually be illegal....but beyond that, its inaccurate...and he has stated hes physically able to coach....where have u been? hes done so numerous times, as has his agent...

like i said....this soap opera is hilarious....two parties that truly deserve each other....

oh and btw most head coaching contracts do not allow u to just 'reassign' the coach to other duties...for the same reason a coach cant just quit and go coach another team without some sort of consequences, a team just cant fire a coach and not let him pursue employment, even if they would honor the contract....now the coach could choose not to work...but could still seek employment elsewhere as the contract had been broken when their tenure on the bench had been ended....the team breaks that contract by removing him from his duties and is therefore obligated to pay....most often a settlement is reached...and as part of that settlement, if that coach goes elsewhere the original team is not obligated to pay anymore, and in exchange for that monetary concessioon the new team does not typically have to provide compensation to the original team...

Those are my thoughts as well. It seems to me that if the Pistons were able to get rid of Brown w/o paying him $$$, it would have been done already. If they weren't pissed off enough at Brown after the whole Cleveland fiasco, not to mention this latest insult, what will it take for them to finally say "enough" and pull the plug? What are they waiting on?

IIRC, the Wolves were not successful in their claims that Flip had been "reassigned." Why would the Pistons have any better luck there?

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:00 PM
He was fired because he could not guarentee that he wouldn't be missing more games next year, and his doctors couldn't guarntee that either. The Pistons are not obligated to keep a coach that they can't rely on.

That's the reason he was let go. They asked for Brown's word, and he couldn't give it, and that was it.

Chances are he'll be on and off again with the Knicks next year, just as he was last year. I guarentee he doesn't last all 82 games.

Then why did they try to negotiate a buyout instead of just firing him outright?

foretaz
07-19-2005, 08:00 PM
He was fired because he could not guarentee that he wouldn't be missing more games next year, and his doctors couldn't guarntee that either.

That's the reason he was let go.

ummm...he was fired because the owner got pi$$ed at him...

seems to be a bit of a habit of this said owners....

fired two of the best coaches in the league in the last two years....

and just look at what those coaches did for his team....

ahhhh....the ego of some are just mind boggling...too funny...his ego is more important to him than his teams success...

somewhere in joe d.'s mind hes gotta be kicking himself...he knows he couldve had his ring and still had carlisle coaching....

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:03 PM
somewhere in joe d.'s mind hes gotta be kicking himself...he knows he couldve had his ring and still had carlisle coaching....

Yeah....and owner whose team has won 3 championships. Wow, if only we had the Simons. Yeah, Davidson sucks.

A guy who took one of the worst franchises in the history of sports to the mountaintop THREE TIMES...

Yep, what a bad owner. Gosh, I wish he'd sell the team.

You want to bash Tom Wilson? Go ahead. I don't like him either. But I'd take a Bullet for Mr. Davidson, who is one of the best owners in all of sports.

The best owners don't make PR moves, the best owners make the tough moves for the good of his franchise. Al Davis is ver similiar in that respect.

sweabs
07-19-2005, 08:07 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2111596

Brown free to coach elsewhere

<!-- end pagetitle --> <!-- begin bylinebox --> Associated Press

<!-- begin presby2 --><!-- end presby2 --> http://espn.starwave.com/media/motion/2005/0718/darko_thumbnail_small.jpg (javascript:void(0);)
Related Video:
Can Darko earn playing time on Detroit's deep front line? http://espn.starwave.com/i/m_watch.gif (javascript:void(0);)


<!-- end bylinebox -->
<!-- begin text11 div --><!-- begin leftcol --> <!-- template inline --> DETROIT -- Larry Brown is out as coach of the Detroit Pistons.

Brown and the Pistons reached a settlement Tuesday on the final three years of his contract, Pistons spokesman Matt Dobek said. He is now free to coach another team next season, said Dobek, who declined to provide further details.

Asked if the team had fired Brown, Dobek replied: "Say what you want.''

The team didn't want the Hall of Fame coach back and had offered a payoff, Brown's agent, Joe Glass, said Tuesday.

"I take umbrage with the Pistons, or sources, saying it's a buyout,'' Glass said Tuesday morning before the announcement. "A buyout encompasses a mutual agreement, and that's not what is happening. Larry Brown is saying, 'I want to coach the Pistons,' and they want to pay him off for whatever reason.''

Before the Pistons said Monday that they were negotiating a buyout, they had said they would welcome Brown back if he was willing to return.

"Until this week, I can't remember a time that I read Joe Dumars not categorically state that Larry Brown is our coach,'' Glass said. "The Pistons can try to change the facts, but you can't change history.

"When did this all break down? My best guess is months ago.''

After the announcement, messages seeking comment were left with Brown, Glass, team president of basketball operations Joe Dumars, and Pistons players Richard Hamilton (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3330) and Chauncey Billups (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3174).

Two years ago, Detroit signed Brown to a five-year contract worth about $25 million, plus incentive bonuses. He guided the Pistons to the NBA championship in 2004 and came one victory away from repeating this year.

Throughout the season, Brown insisted he would return if doctors deemed him healthy enough, and said he wouldn't lead another NBA team from the sideline. Still, there have been reports that the New York Knicks will not hire a new coach until they know for sure that Brown is unavailable.

The 64-year-old Brown was hospitalized for treatment of a medical problem that developed from complications following hip surgery in November and persisted after a second procedure in March. He checked into the Mayo Clinic the morning after last month's NBA draft, less than a week after Detroit lost Game 7 of the finals to the San Antonio Spurs (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sas).

"His medical condition isn't 100 percent and it hasn't improved much,'' Glass said. "But we're trusting God that it will, and Larry has represented that he is physically, spiritually and emotionally able to coach.

"I do not want myself or Larry to sound vindictive because this is a free country, but at the same token, facts are facts. Some are saying Larry is using his health as an excuse, but that's not the truth because he's more than willing to come back, even with his current condition.''

Brown and Glass met with Dumars and Pistons owner Bill Davidson last week. Other than traveling to suburban Detroit for the meeting, Brown has been resting, on doctor's orders, at his vacation home in New York.

During the regular season, reports linked Brown to jobs in New York (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=nyk), Los Angeles (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=lal) and Denver (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=den).

The Cleveland Cavaliers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=cle) talked with Brown about becoming their president of basketball operations after Detroit gave them permission during the spring. Cleveland hired Danny Ferry (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=110) as general manager last month, and he has been assured that Brown will not be his boss.

Brown is the only coach with NBA and NCAA championships, winning a title with the Pistons last year and one with Kansas in 1988.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:07 PM
Yeah....and owner whose team has won 3 championships. Wow, if only we had the Simons. Yeah, Davidson sucks.

A guy who took one of the worst franchises in the history of sports to the mountaintop THREE TIMES...

Yep, what a bad owner. Gosh, I wish he'd sell the team.

You want to bash Tom Wilson? Go ahead. But I'd take a Bullet for Mr. Davidson, who is one of the best owners in all of sports.

Um...where did he mention Davidson in that sentence? Did I miss something? :confused:

foretaz
07-19-2005, 08:08 PM
Then why did they try to negotiate a buyout instead of just firing him outright?


that is very, very simple...

they were trying to negotiate a way to keep him from coaching the knicks...

they wanted their cake and eat it to...

basically saying...'we dont want ya, but we dont want anybody else to have you-especially the knicks'

and it doesnt work that way....they know he will probably go to work before the end of his contract expires...so therefore they wont have to pay the full amount....however, they wouldve preferred to pay an amount to insure he wouldnt go somewhere else...

but brown and his agent wouldnt agree to that....as anyone in his shoes would not agree to...

if they want him gone, hes in the drivers seat....cause they are breaking the contract, not him(even if thats what he wanted-which i totally believe is the case)

they can try to negotiate terms that they would like, but brown has to agree to none of them unless he wants....they might have offered a balloon payment of the next two years on the contract in exchange for him agreeing to not coach the knicks this year...but he isnt obligated to do it...based on what the knicks will probably pay him, if nothing else u cant blame him from that standpoint...as i said before, id love to know what their final offer was to try and keep him from coaching the knicks this year....

that being said, im still not sure he coaches the knicks this year....though likely, theres always the chance he stays at home, takes a break, rests and spends time with his family.....then gets hungry and comes back next season....or at the very least middle of this season...maybe after herb hasnt been able to lead the knicks to a good record, which is a given...

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:09 PM
Um...where did he mention Davidson in that sentence? Did I miss something? :confused:

Read his whole post. In that sentence is was implying that DUmars is upset that Davidson had Carlisle fired.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:09 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2111596

Brown free to coach elsewhere

<!-- end pagetitle --> <!-- begin bylinebox --> Associated Press

<!-- begin presby2 --><!-- end presby2 --> http://espn.starwave.com/media/motion/2005/0718/darko_thumbnail_small.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)
Related Video:
Can Darko earn playing time on Detroit's deep front line? http://espn.starwave.com/i/m_watch.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)


<!-- end bylinebox -->
<!-- begin text11 div --><!-- begin leftcol --> <!-- template inline --> DETROIT -- Larry Brown is out as coach of the Detroit Pistons.

Brown and the Pistons reached a settlement Tuesday on the final three years of his contract, Pistons spokesman Matt Dobek said. He is now free to coach another team next season, said Dobek, who declined to provide further details.

Asked if the team had fired Brown, Dobek replied: "Say what you want.''

The team didn't want the Hall of Fame coach back and had offered a payoff, Brown's agent, Joe Glass, said Tuesday.

"I take umbrage with the Pistons, or sources, saying it's a buyout,'' Glass said Tuesday morning before the announcement. "A buyout encompasses a mutual agreement, and that's not what is happening. Larry Brown is saying, 'I want to coach the Pistons,' and they want to pay him off for whatever reason.''

Before the Pistons said Monday that they were negotiating a buyout, they had said they would welcome Brown back if he was willing to return.

"Until this week, I can't remember a time that I read Joe Dumars not categorically state that Larry Brown is our coach,'' Glass said. "The Pistons can try to change the facts, but you can't change history.

"When did this all break down? My best guess is months ago.''

After the announcement, messages seeking comment were left with Brown, Glass, team president of basketball operations Joe Dumars, and Pistons players Richard Hamilton (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3330) and Chauncey Billups (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3174).

Two years ago, Detroit signed Brown to a five-year contract worth about $25 million, plus incentive bonuses. He guided the Pistons to the NBA championship in 2004 and came one victory away from repeating this year.

Throughout the season, Brown insisted he would return if doctors deemed him healthy enough, and said he wouldn't lead another NBA team from the sideline. Still, there have been reports that the New York Knicks will not hire a new coach until they know for sure that Brown is unavailable.

The 64-year-old Brown was hospitalized for treatment of a medical problem that developed from complications following hip surgery in November and persisted after a second procedure in March. He checked into the Mayo Clinic the morning after last month's NBA draft, less than a week after Detroit lost Game 7 of the finals to the San Antonio Spurs (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sas).

"His medical condition isn't 100 percent and it hasn't improved much,'' Glass said. "But we're trusting God that it will, and Larry has represented that he is physically, spiritually and emotionally able to coach.

"I do not want myself or Larry to sound vindictive because this is a free country, but at the same token, facts are facts. Some are saying Larry is using his health as an excuse, but that's not the truth because he's more than willing to come back, even with his current condition.''

Brown and Glass met with Dumars and Pistons owner Bill Davidson last week. Other than traveling to suburban Detroit for the meeting, Brown has been resting, on doctor's orders, at his vacation home in New York.

During the regular season, reports linked Brown to jobs in New York (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=nyk), Los Angeles (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=lal) and Denver (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=den).

The Cleveland Cavaliers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=cle) talked with Brown about becoming their president of basketball operations after Detroit gave them permission during the spring. Cleveland hired Danny Ferry (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=110) as general manager last month, and he has been assured that Brown will not be his boss.

Brown is the only coach with NBA and NCAA championships, winning a title with the Pistons last year and one with Kansas in 1988.

"Settlement?" Doesn't sound to me like the Pistons are off the hook for LB's salary.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:10 PM
Read his whole post. In that sentence is was implying that DUmars is upset that Davidson had Carlisle fired.

I thought Dumars was the one who fired Carlisle. :shrug:

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:12 PM
I thought Dumars was the one who fired Carlisle. :shrug:

Tom Wilson is the guy I hold responsible for that. That said, Carlisle for Larry Brown was an upgrade, short-term.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:14 PM
"Settlement?" Doesn't sound to me like the Pistons are off the hook for LB's salary.


Also doesn't sound like they agreed to "fire" him, either. Both sides took a little and gave a little on this.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:15 PM
Tom Wilson is the guy I hold responsible for that. That said, Carlisle for Larry Brown was an upgrade, short-term.

Arguably.

Remember, LB's Pistons weren't championship-caliber, by your own admission, until the trade for Sheed.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 08:16 PM
"Settlement?" Doesn't sound to me like the Pistons are off the hook for LB's salary.

only way theyre off the hook is if brown agreed to it, which is not likely...they may have all agreed to a one time termination amount...who knows...

but most settlements require the continued payment of said contract till that coach takes on another job....

that being said...this is not ur typical situation, per se'

so anything is possible....

if i was guessing...and its just a guess...id say they agreed on a balloon payment of some sort right now and the contract is terminated....and both parties go their separate ways....based on the circumstances and the knowledge the press is reporting

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:17 PM
Also doesn't sound like they agreed to "fire" him, either. Both sides took a little and gave a little on this.

Seems weird they would say "say what you want."

And why reach a "settlement" when they could just can him and not have to pay him anything? I seriously doubt it's a PR thing. That kinda went out the window with Carlisle's firing.

shags
07-19-2005, 08:17 PM
somewhere in joe d.'s mind hes gotta be kicking himself...he knows he couldve had his ring and still had carlisle coaching....

Carlisle would have been fired mid-season a la Byron Scott had the Pistons not fired him due to a players' revolt.

By all accounts, the Pistons' players (especially Ben Wallace) DESPISED Carlisle, MUCH more than they did Brown. And since Carlisle would have been on his last season, and didn't have the full support of management, there would have been no accountability and no leverage for Rick. He would have been gone no matter how good the Pistons were doing.

It turned out great for both parties. But to say the Pistons would have won a title with Carlisle is categorically untrue.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:19 PM
Arguably.

Remember, LB's Pistons weren't championship-caliber, by your own admission, until the trade for Sheed.

You guys need to make up your minds. You defend to the death that Carlisle is just as good a coach as Larry Brown, but when Larry gets fired, you're just as quick to say, "there goes detroit's only edge." Make up your minds already which pacers-supporting comment you want to stand by.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:19 PM
Carlisle would have been fired mid-season a la Byron Scott had the Pistons not fired him due to a players' revolt.

By all accounts, the Pistons' players (especially Ben Wallace) DESPISED Carlisle, MUCH more than they did Brown. And since Carlisle would have been on his last season, and didn't have the full support of management, there would have been no accountability and no leverage for Rick. He would have been gone no matter how good the Pistons were doing.

It turned out great for both parties. But to say the Pistons would have won a title with Carlisle is categorically untrue.

And yet, Carlisle's player relations have been spectacular in Indy, both as an assistant (before Motown) and head coach (after Motown). Weird...

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:21 PM
Seems weird they would say "say what you want."

And why reach a "settlement" when they could just can him and not have to pay him anything? I seriously doubt it's a PR thing. That kinda went out the window with Carlisle's firing.

They can't can him and not have to pay a thing. They could fire him and be on the hook for his salary, or agree to a buyout in which they pay him a sum and let him coach another team.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:22 PM
You guys need to make up your minds. You defend to the death that Carlisle is just as good a coach as Larry Brown, but when Larry gets fired, you're just as quick to say, "there goes detroit's only edge." Make up your minds already which pacers-supporting comment you want to stand by.

I think you should go back and read my particular stance on the issue rather than lumping me in with "you guys." I'm of the belief that Sheed, not Brown, was most responsible for Detroit's title run. I've held firm on that for a while. I haven't contradicted myself at all.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:23 PM
They can't can him and not have to pay a thing. They could fire him and be on the hook for his salary, or agree to a buyout in which they pay him a sum and let him coach another team.

That's not what you've been saying for the last hour.

The Pistons initiated the buyout, not Brown.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:23 PM
And yet, Carlisle's player relations have been spectacular in Indy, both as an assistant (before Motown) and head coach (after Motown). Weird...


Carlisle also managed to take of his Curry-goggles after a while. Apparently, he learned his lesson.

Not that I blame him for making mistakes, all young coaches do. I'm just saying don't assume that he would have grown as much had he not had his eyes opened with a pink slip.

shags
07-19-2005, 08:24 PM
And yet, Carlisle's player relations have been spectacular in Indy, both as an assistant (before Motown) and head coach (after Motown). Weird...

All I know is if Rick Carlisle coached the Pistons the last two years, Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince are worse basketball players right now. Carlisle absolutely FORBID Ben to shoot anything but a dunk or a layup. And all Prince did in practice was shoot around. So maybe that factored in.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:25 PM
That's not what you've been saying for the last hour.

Shade, re-read what I said.

I said they'd be on the hook for his salary, but they could also prevent him from going elsewhere, if they really wanted to, in addition to replacing him as coach here. That was the card they had in their hands that they had to put on the table in order to keep from paying him his full salary to go coach the knicks.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:25 PM
Carlisle also managed to take of his Curry-goggles after a while. Apparently, he learned his lesson.

Not that I blame him for making mistakes, all young coaches do. I'm just saying don't assume that he would have grown as much had he not had his eyes opened with a pink slip.

But he didn't have player relation issues here before going to Detroit, either. It seems to have supposedly developed, and died, within the Pistons organization. That's what's so weird about it.

shags
07-19-2005, 08:25 PM
I think you should go back and read my particular stance on the issue rather than lumping me in with "you guys." I'm of the belief that Sheed, not Brown, was most responsible for Detroit's title run. I've held firm on that for a while. I haven't contradicted myself at all.

Now THAT'S the absolute truth.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:26 PM
But he didn't have player relation issues here before going to Detroit, either. It seems to have supposedly developed, and died, within the Pistons organization. That's what's so weird about it.

Um, Jalen Rose? Anybody?

Aside from that, when's the last time you heard of an assitant coach having a public fued with a player? It's not like anybody cared who Carlisle did or did not like when he was an assistant.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:29 PM
Shade, re-read what I said.

I said they'd be on the hook for his salary, but they could also prevent him from going elsewhere, if they really wanted to, in addition to replacing him as coach here. That was the card they had in their hands that they had to put on the table in order to keep from paying him his full salary to go coach the knicks.

I did re-read it, and what I saw was:


Not really.

A) The Pistons could simply re-assign him within the organization. Brown could either refuse or quit.

B) The Pistons could list him as physically unfit to coach, and hire a replacement. Brown's doctors could not give him a full bill of health.

Again, Brown is trying to look like the good guy on the way out, but the Pistons have other means of displacing him if he wants to pitch a fit over it.

The only way Brown gets the Pistons to agree to fire him, is if Brown agrees to drop the final 3 years of his deal. In that case, nobody in the organization will care what the terminology is.


The stickier this gets, Brown loses just as much as the Pistons. Neither side is dumb enough to drag this out like Phil/Shaq vs Kobe.

Brown's desire to coach will overrule his desire for cash, and the Pistons desire to be rid of him will overrule them caring over the terminology of the deal, and in the end, Brown will get fired, but the Pistons wont be on the hook for the cash.

:confused:

foretaz
07-19-2005, 08:30 PM
You guys need to make up your minds. You defend to the death that Carlisle is just as good a coach as Larry Brown, but when Larry gets fired, you're just as quick to say, "there goes detroit's only edge." Make up your minds already which pacers-supporting comment you want to stand by.


ummmm...this is way to simple....yes carlisle is as good a coach as brown...the difference in the pistons was sheed...

now when brown is gone...and carlisle is gone...and ur left with flip...thats a different story

flip is not as good a coach....and sheed and brown were north carolina buddies, so they had a bond that helped maintain whatever form of sanity it was that sheed was able to maintain....

unless, by some freak of circumstance, the pistons hire riley....they will have a worse coach....and a worse sheed as well...

as ive been saying...because all this was a foregone conclusion some time ago....theyre now on the downside....the demise will take some time...and demise might be a bit of a strong term as they will still be a good team...but it took everything they had to get to the finals this year with perfect health for the most part and larry brown leading the way....they struggled with a decimated indiana team and probably still only managed to advance over miami due to wade and shaq being injured....

the tide has turned...how far they fall and how quickly they do so, well...who knows....we will just have to sit back and watch.....

and u have ur brilliant owner, who makes all the right moves, to thank for that....he made not one bad move, but now 2....god knows how many titles they may have won with carlisle...but hey...noone can take the 1 away from the season before last....

just make sure u keep good hold of that memory....ur gonna need it for quite a long time to soothe some wounds in the years to come...;)

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:31 PM
The only way Brown gets the Pistons to agree to fire him, is if Brown agrees to drop the final 3 years of his deal. In that case, nobody in the organization will care what the terminology is.

And in the end, was he fired? No, he was bought out. His agent can call it a "firing" as much as he wants, but the reality is there was a buyout. If he was FIRED, there would be no "settlement," which is a pretty term for saying, "we offered you money to quit, and you accepted it." Thank you.

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:31 PM
Um, Jalen Rose? Anybody?

Aside from that, when's the last time you heard of an assitant coach having a public fued with a player? It's not like anybody cared who Carlisle did or did not like when he was an assistant.

Quite a few coach/player feuds are made public.

RE: Rose -- are we talking about Carlisle, or Larry Brown?

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:33 PM
And in the end, was he fired? No, he was bought out. His agent can call it a "firing" as much as he wants, but the reality is there was a buyout. If he was FIRED, there would be no "settlement," which is a pretty term for saying, "we offered you money to quit, and you accepted it." Thank you.


...in the end, Brown will get fired, but the Pistons wont be on the hook for the cash.

:confused:

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:33 PM
Quite a few player feuds are made public.

RE: Rose -- are we talking about Carlisle, or Larry Brown?

Ok, name one.

And year, I did hear quite a bit that Rose and Carlisle had run-ins in Indiana.

Bball
07-19-2005, 08:33 PM
Um, Jalen Rose? Anybody?

Aside from that, when's the last time you heard of an assitant coach having a public fued with a player? It's not like anybody cared who Carlisle did or did not like when he was an assistant.

Sometimes it's Jalen's name that is brought up... at others it is Croshere's name. And I don't think there's ever been a press story saying it was either.

I think some stuff was speculated on and suddenly became 'truth'. It made a nice cover story since Thomas was in the bag IMHO much earlier than it became public knowledge and Byron and Carlisle were window dressing for the game until it could formerly announced Isiah was taking over.

-Bball

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Kstat
...in the end, Brown will get fired, but the Pistons wont be on the hook for the cash.

Well, my main point was that there would be a comprimise, but in the end that made a totally opposite comprimise. Brown took the money, and accepted the buyout.

I thought Brown cared a bit more about his image than the cash, but guess I was wrong there.

The thing is, Brown didn't have the pistons over a barrell any more than they had him. There was a comprimise.

SoupIsGood
07-19-2005, 08:37 PM
Well, I'm glad he's gone. I can allow myself to think we may have a shot at the finals now. :)

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:38 PM
Ok, name one.

And year, I did hear quite a bit that Rose and Carlisle had run-ins in Indiana.

There are player/coach feuds all the time.

How about Maurice Cheeks and practically the entire roster in Portland?

Zeke and Croshere?

Carlisemo and Sprewell?

And as for Rose, some players are just trouble-makers, and don't get along with anyone. Plus, heresay is not exactly a reliable source. That's all the Carlisle/Detroit player thing was as well. Heresay.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 08:38 PM
Well, my main point was that there would be a comprimise, but in the end that made a totally opposite comprimise. Brown took the money, and accepted the buyout.

I thought Brown cared a bit more about his image than the cash, but guess I was wrong there.

The thing is, Brown didn't have the pistons over a barrell any more than they had him. There was a comprimise.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:39 PM
Well, my main point was that there would be a comprimise, but in the end that made a totally opposite comprimise. Brown took the money, and accepted the buyout.

I thought Brown cared a bit more about his image than the cash, but guess I was wrong there.

The thing is, Brown didn't have the pistons over a barrell any more than they had him. There was a comprimise.

But, why compromise when Detroit has the power to just fire him and not be on the hook for any $$$? That's not exactly a smart business decision.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:42 PM
But, why compromise when Detroit has the power to just fire him and not be on the hook for any $$$? That's not exactly a smart business decision.

FInd me where I said they could do that without Brown's consent.

shags
07-19-2005, 08:42 PM
as ive been saying...because all this was a foregone conclusion some time ago....theyre now on the downside....the demise will take some time...and demise might be a bit of a strong term as they will still be a good team...but it took everything they had to get to the finals this year with perfect health for the most part and larry brown leading the way....they struggled with a decimated indiana team and probably still only managed to advance over miami due to wade and shaq being injured....



To say the Pistons had perfect health is misinformed and ignorant. Rip Hamilton injured his calf in Game 2 of the Pacer series and played one good half (2nd half, Game 6) for the rest of that series.

To say the Pistons were healthier than the Pacers is more accurate, but perfect health is inaccurate (Sheed was injured too in the 2004 ECF). It's not the Pistons' fault these other teams players can't stay as healthy as them over a 100 to 110 game season. Maybe these other teams need to hire better training staffs.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:43 PM
To say the Pistons had perfect health is misinformed and ignorant.

You'll find out that's Foretaz's middle name....:laugh:

Yeah, we had perfect health last year..tell that to Delfino, who was our 7th man and 3rd guard before he got hurt.

Don't waste your breath on him, though. He's of the opinion that the Pacers are perfect and the Pistons are really a #8 seed that just got lucky. Nothing will ever change that, so don't bother trying.

It's like watching a drunken cheerleader try to type......"Da Pacers r da bestest team evr, and no1 can proove othrwise. Goooo Pacers! Pistons sukkk!"

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:48 PM
FInd me where I said they could do that without Brown's consent.

Why in the world would any coach EVER consent to such a thing?

"Hey, Larry, would you mind consenting to us firing so we don't have to pay you for the rest of your contract?"

"Sure, fellas, not a problem."

I sure hope my boss gets my consent before firing me so I'm unable to collect unemployment.

:confused: :suicide:

Shade
07-19-2005, 08:53 PM
Btw, I find this excerpt very interesting:


After the announcement, messages seeking comment were left with Brown, Glass, team president of basketball operations Joe Dumars, and Pistons players Richard Hamilton and Chauncey Billups.

What role did Rip and Chauncey play in this?

Kstat
07-19-2005, 08:54 PM
Why in the world would any coach EVER consent to such a thing?

Larry actually has a history of leaving money on the table when he finds a new job. He did the same thing in Philly.

Brown WANTS to be "fired," rather than bought out. I thought that bit of PR would be worth the rest of his deal. Oh well, live and learn.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:00 PM
Larry actually has a history of leaving money on the table when he finds a new job. He did the same thing in Philly.

Brown WANTS to be "fired," rather than bought out. I thought that bit of PR would be worth the rest of his deal. Oh well, live and learn.

Sorry, K, but that makes no sense whatsoever. At no point in your argument did you ever claim such a notion, nor have I ever heard of such a ridiculous thing as a coach having to consent to being fired. You simply said that if Brown wanted to screw with the Pistons, they could fire him and not have to pay him anything -- indicating that Detroit had the ultimate power, not Brown. You said Brown would have to agree to a buyout, quit, or be stuck in a different role with the team, all the while saying the Pistons would fire him and not be on the hook for any of the $$$ they owe him. Which, btw, would negate any reason the Pistons would have to negotiate a buyout with him. The Pistons initiated the buyout, not Brown. There's no reason for them to do so if they could just can him without paying him a damn thing, and use his suspect health as an excuse. Now, you're saying something completely different, and you have conflicting opinions all over the place.

My head hurts.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:03 PM
Sorry, K, but that makes no sense whatsoever. At no point in your argument did you ever claim such a notion, nor have I ever heard of such a ridiculous thing as a coach having to consent to being fired. You simply said that if Brown wanted to screw with the Pistons, they could fire him and not have to pay him anything -- indicating that Detroit had the ultimate power, not Brown. You said Brown would have to agree to a buyout, quit, or be stuck in a different role with the team, all the while saying the Pistons would fire him and not be on the hook for any of the $$$ they owe him. Which, btw, would negate any reason the Pistons would have to negotiate a buyout with him. The Pistons initiated the buyout, not Brown. There's no reason for them to do so if they could just can him without paying him a damn thing, and use his suspect health as an excuse. Now, you're saying something completely different, and you have conflicting opinions all over the place.

My head hurts.

Find one point where I claimed the Pistons could fire him without his consent and not owe money, and you'll have my agreement.

And to answer your question, they asked for the buyout because they didn't want to pay ALL of Brown's remaining salary.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:05 PM
Find one point where I claimed the Pistons could fire him without his consent and not owe money, and you'll have my agreement.

You never said "without his consent," just simply that the Pistons could fire him and not be on the hook for the rest of his contract. Like I said, the very notion that anyone would consent to such a thing is absurd and goes without saying.

You should be a lawyer.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:07 PM
You never said "without his consent," just simply that the Pistons could fire him and not be on the hook for the rest of his contract. Like I said, the very notion that anyone would consent to such a thing is absurd and goes without saying.

You should be a lawyer.


So if it was that obvious, you should be able to find a quote.

And no, I have no intention of going into competition with able. The Artest posts he made last year were far beyond my capabilities. :tongue:

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:08 PM
And to answer your question, they asked for the buyout because they didn't want to pay ALL of Brown's remaining salary.

But...you said...the Pistons...wouldn't owe...him...anything...at all...if they...fired...him... :surprised:

:suicide:

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:09 PM
But...you said...the Pistons...wouldn't owe...him...anything...at all...if they...fired...him... :surprised:

:suicide:


No...I....siad....that....the...Pistons...would... .reach....a....mutual....agreement.

In that agreement, Brown would get the good publicity of being fired, and the Pistons wouldnt have to pay the full $$$. Both sides get something. CLearly, the final result was the total opposite, but still a comprimise.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 09:09 PM
To say the Pistons had perfect health is misinformed and ignorant. Rip Hamilton injured his calf in Game 2 of the Pacer series and played one good half (2nd half, Game 6) for the rest of that series.

To say the Pistons were healthier than the Pacers is more accurate, but perfect health is inaccurate (Sheed was injured too in the 2004 ECF). It's not the Pistons' fault these other teams players can't stay as healthy as them over a 100 to 110 game season. Maybe these other teams need to hire better training staffs.


sometimes we just see what we wanna see....try reading everything this time....stead of just what u want to...


Originally Posted by foretaz

as ive been saying...because all this was a foregone conclusion some time ago....theyre now on the downside....the demise will take some time...and demise might be a bit of a strong term as they will still be a good team...but it took everything they had to get to the finals this year with perfect health for the most part and larry brown leading the way....they struggled with a decimated indiana team and probably still only managed to advance over miami due to wade and shaq being injured....

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:11 PM
So if it was that obvious, you should be able to find a quote.

And no, I have no intention of going into competition with able. The Artest posts he made last year were far beyond my capabilities. :tongue:

Oh, for the love of... :censored:


...in the end, Brown will get fired, but the Pistons wont be on the hook for the cash.

You never said that they would have to get Brown's consent to fire him in order to be off the hook for the rest of the contract. :tongue:

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:12 PM
No...I....siad....that....the...Pistons...would... .reach....a....mutual....agreement.

In that agreement, Brown would get the good publicity of being fired, and the Pistons wouldnt have to pay the full $$$. Both sides get something. CLearly, the final result was the total opposite, but still a comprimise.

Actually, you said BOTH. Just a few minutes apart. That's why my head hurts. :disturbed:

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:12 PM
Oh, for the love of... :censored:



[/b]You never said that they would have to get Brown's consent to fire him in order to be off the hook for the rest of the contract. :tongue:

That comment was taken out of context and you know it. I could piece together parts of your posts and make you out to be a member of Al-Quaida if I wanted to.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:19 PM
That comment was taken out of context and you know it. I could piece together parts of your posts and make you out to be a member of Al-Quaida if I wanted to.

Out of context?!?! :spitout: :laugh:

Fine, here's the full post:


It isn't up to the Pistons anymore, it's up to Brown. The Pistons have legal recourse to fire him, since his health makes him unreliable. They can't be forced to keep him if he can't tell them that he's still physically able to coach.

Brown can agree to the buyout, agree to quit, or sit behind a desk till 2008.

I expect all this to get straightened out in a few days. This is just Brown's agrent trying to squeeze every last bit of PR and $$$ out of this fiasco. Neither Joe nor Larry want this to drag out any longer than it has to.


The stickier this gets, Brown loses just as much as the Pistons. Neither side is dumb enough to drag this out like Phil/Shaq vs Kobe.

Brown's desire to coach will overrule his desire for cash, and the Pistons desire to be rid of him will overrule them caring over the terminology of the deal, and in the end, Brown will get fired, but the Pistons wont be on the hook for the cash.

You're all over the place, in just these two posts. You say that the Pistons have legal recourse to fire Brown without paying him any $$$. If so, then why in the world offer him a buyout and pay him $$$?

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:21 PM
Out of context?!?! :spitout: :laugh:

Fine, here's the full post:


Key words in that post were all "AGREE."

If I thought the Pistons could fire Brown without paying him, then why would I say he would have to AGREE to a settlement?

foretaz
07-19-2005, 09:22 PM
the only mutual agreement that was reached was what the compensation would be for breaking the contract....

brown wanted to coach(so he said)

he was under contract to coach

the pistons didnt want him to coach anymore

so they fired him-broke the contract...

and for that, they had to compensate....and until they agreed with brown on what that compensation would be they were under obligation to pay the whole contract....so larry let them off the hook...

consider brown a merciful guy for not wanting to collect the total amount when he wouldnt be doing the job he was contracted for....he didnt have to do that...

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:23 PM
Key words in that post were all "AGREE."

If I thought the Pistons could fire Brown without paying him, then why would I say he would have to AGREE to a settlement?

Your opinon in both posts is completely different. In one, you say Brown can be canned due to his health, and the Pistons won't be on the hook for any $$$ to him. In the other, you say they'll reach a mutual buyout agreement.

My question remains, why offer him a buyout if they can just fire him and not have to pay him spit?

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:28 PM
Key words in that post were all "AGREE."

If I thought the Pistons could fire Brown without paying him, then why would I say he would have to AGREE to a settlement?

If that's the case, then why post that in response to a post saying that Brown has Detroit by the nuts? If he has to agree to be fired, then he DOES have Detroit by the nuts. They had to pay him, just as I said they would. He didn't walk away from the $$$, and he shouldn't -- Detroit broke the contract, not him. He played his cards right, and got the best of both worlds.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:28 PM
Your opinon in both posts is completely different. In one, you say Brown can be canned due to his health, and the Pistons won't be on the hook for any $$$ to him. In the other, you say they'll reach a mutual buyout agreement.

My question remains, why offer him a buyout if they can just fire him and not have to pay him spit?

No, I said they can REASSIGN him due to his health. Never did I say fire.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 09:30 PM
No, I said they can REASSIGN him due to his health. Never did I say fire.

which they cant do....;)

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:30 PM
the only mutual agreement that was reached was what the compensation would be for breaking the contract....

brown wanted to coach(so he said)

he was under contract to coach

the pistons didnt want him to coach anymore

so they fired him-broke the contract...

and for that, they had to compensate....and until they agreed with brown on what that compensation would be they were under obligation to pay the whole contract....so larry let them off the hook...

consider brown a merciful guy for not wanting to collect the total amount when he wouldnt be doing the job he was contracted for....he didnt have to do that...

Yes, exactly what I was saying waaaaay back when this whole debate began. Larry held most of the power in this thing -- that's why it took Detroit so long to negotiate a buyout, because they didn't have the power to just fire him without paying the rest of his contract, or reassigning him, contrary to what you said, K.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:32 PM
No, I said they can REASSIGN him due to his health. Never did I say fire.


The Pistons have legal recourse to fire him, since his health makes him unreliable.

:shrug:

Hicks
07-19-2005, 09:33 PM
:shrug:

And yet I'll be surprised if he admits it. :shrug:

foretaz
07-19-2005, 09:34 PM
If that's the case, then why post that in response to a post saying that Brown has Detroit by the nuts? If he has to agree to be fired, then he DOES have Detroit by the nuts. They had to pay him, just as I said they would. He didn't walk away from the $$$, and he shouldn't -- Detroit broke the contract, not him. He played his cards right, and got the best of both worlds.

shade....larry did have them by the nuts....i said that a few days ago...

kstat doesnt like that....but its the fact...

now if detroit, specifically, davidson didnt have such a big ego, they couldve had larry by the nuts....but davidson felt insulted....'how dare larry brown'...

and as often happens.... ones pride hands one's nuts to another....and then another can get just about whatever he wants, or as kstat would like to say, or whatever he will agree to.....if not...u just keep squeezing....and thats what larry and his agent has been doing for almost a week now....

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:35 PM
And yet I'll be surprised if he admits it. :shrug:\\Bah. I meant fire him from coaching, and place him elsewhere.

I'll admit to making a verbal mistake, but I assure you that's not what I meant.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:36 PM
and as often happens.... ones pride hands one's nuts to another....and then another can get just about whatever he wants, or as kstat would like to say, or whatever he will agree to.....if not...u just keep squeezing....and thats what larry and his agent has been doing for almost a week now....

Please stop talking about putting hands on nuts before I :puke:

handing, or squeezing, or whatever. I don't want to know, man. I just don't want to know.

Hicks
07-19-2005, 09:36 PM
\\Bah. I meant fire him from coaching, and place him elsewhere.

I'll admit to making a verbal mistake, but I assure you that's not what I meant.

Color me impressed. ;)

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:38 PM
BTW, the buyout sum will be $6 million. That's $12 million less than they would have to pay if they "fired" him.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:39 PM
Not a bad deal, if you ask me...


Brown gets $6 million, free to coach another team

July 20, 2005

BY KRISTA LATHAM FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER

The Pistons will pay Larry Brown about $6 million not to return as coach next season.

The team announced Tuesday that it had fired Brown, who led the Pistons to the 2004 NBA title and took them to Game 7 of this year's Finals.

As part of the settlement, Brown will be allowed to coach another NBA team next season. The New York Knicks are interested in hiring him, and other teams might be, too.

Former Minnesota Timberwolves coach Flip Saunders is expected to replace Brown. The Pistons said they already have begun a search for Brown's successor.

Brown, 64, coached the Pistons for two seasons and had three years and $18 million left on his contract. The sides had been negotiating details of a buyout at least since last week.

"I had two unbelievable seasons there," Brown said. "This kind of sets me back a little bit. I love that team. I'm going to miss them."

As for what he will do next, Brown said: "I really don't know what's next because that really wasn't an issue until now. Many people haven't gotten the opportunities that I have, and I'm thankful for that."

His agent, Joe Glass, told the Bloomberg News Service earlier in the day: "There's no ands or buts about it. There's no point in mincing words. There are two very indisputable facts. One, Larry is willing and able to coach, and two, the team doesn't want him."

The uncertainty of how much Brown could coach last season was one reason for his dismissal. Brown missed 17 games last season after undergoing surgery twice -- for a hip replacement and bladder problem. He had further bladder surgery this month at the Mayo Clinic.

Although he said he wanted to coach the Pistons if healthy, his health issue wasn't resolved. He also didn't endear himself to management last season when he said coaching the Knicks would be "a dream job," then agreed to listen to a potential offer to become the Cleveland Cavaliers' president of basketball operations.

Brown has a history of controversial departures. The Pistons are the 10th team he has coached, including the NBA and college. He once quit a job at Davidson (N.C.) College before coaching the team.

Joe Dumars, the Pistons' president of basketball operations, said in a statement: "We appreciate the two tremendous seasons the team enjoyed with Larry as coach. We wish him the best and good health going forward."

Although the Pistons grew tired of the uncertainties with Brown, he is expected to turn up with another team this fall.

"I think teams will be lined up for him when this procedure with Detroit is done," Pacers president Donnie Walsh said Tuesday before Brown's firing was announced. "There are an awful lot of teams that understand going in that what you're getting with him is not an unlimited time, not the rest of his career."

This move has been coming for weeks. Last Wednesday, Brown, Glass, Pistons president Bill Davidson and Dumars met in Auburn Hills. When the talks dragged on into the weekend, it looked certain the sides were negotiating a parting.

Glass said in reports Tuesday that Brown would not accept any buyout that prohibited him from coaching another NBA team.

Both sounded angry about reports that they were negotiating a buyout.

"If somebody wants to fire you, from any job, they have a right to do it," Brown told the New York Daily News. "It's always a judgment call, for one reason or another. That's always the prerogative of management. But what nobody has a right do is want to fire you and have it look like you're resigning."

The Pistons said Brown had been "relieved of his coaching duties."

Detroit Shock coach Bill Laimbeer said Tuesday that he withdrew his name from consideration for the Knicks' job last week because he thought Brown would be available by 2006 at the latest and that the Knicks would sign him.

"This is just one of more unique scenarios I've ever seen," Laimbeer said. "That a successful coach doing a successful job parts ways with an organization. That doesn't happen often. It happened with Doug Collins when he was replaced by Phil Jackson way back when, and it happened with Rick Carlisle when they brought in Larry Brown. And this is the only other time I can think of. "

But few would call this parting surprising.

Brown's reputation for jumping from job to job came long before he came to the Pistons two years ago. He was described as an excellent coach, but also as dramatic and disloyal, a man prone to saying one thing and doing the opposite.

When Brown signed a five-year contract with the Pistons, few thought he would fulfill it. The longest he has spent at any job was six years with the Philadelphia 76ers. He quit there after the Pistons beat the Sixers in the 2003 Eastern Conference playoff semifinals, then soon joined the Pistons.

What will happen to Brown's reputation after his latest departure?

Not much, said Walsh, who played with Brown at North Carolina and was his boss with the Pacers.

"He was with me for four years, and I always knew he was not staying for the rest of his career," Walsh said. "I think they knew that in Detroit, and it was the same way here.

"Although we did not win a championship, he really helped our franchise. You always know it's limited with Larry."

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:39 PM
shade....larry did have them by the nuts....i said that a few days ago...

kstat doesnt like that....but its the fact...

now if detroit, specifically, davidson didnt have such a big ego, they couldve had larry by the nuts....but davidson felt insulted....'how dare larry brown'...

and as often happens.... ones pride hands one's nuts to another....and then another can get just about whatever he wants, or as kstat would like to say, or whatever he will agree to.....if not...u just keep squeezing....and thats what larry and his agent has been doing for almost a week now....

Yeah, that's kind of my point. I think K was so quick to jump in to the Pistons' defense that he didn't really realize how much power Brown had in this thing. He was going to get SOMETHING for the rest of that contract, as Detroit had broken the contract and had no other recourse. Hell, Detroit is fortunate that he didn't hold them ransom for the ENTIRE amount. The Pistons could have retained him and forced him to coach then, but there's no way that would have ever gone over well. Players can't play for a coach that doesn't even want to be there.

In the end, Brown gets some $$$ to leave and coach NY, and Detroit doesn't have to pay the full $$$ of LB's contract, and can ring in a new coach. Both sides were tring to outsmart each other, but Brown ended up with the edge, and played it to the max.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:41 PM
Color me impressed. ;)

I'm surprised it wasn't quoted out of context. :unimpress

foretaz
07-19-2005, 09:41 PM
\\Bah. I meant fire him from coaching, and place him elsewhere.

I'll admit to making a verbal mistake, but I assure you that's not what I meant.


care to admit that they couldnt fire him from coaching and place him elsewhere also??.

cause they couldnt do that either ;) ;) ;)

nevermind....its ok...

ur seeing ur so called great team slowly begin its demise....

u must be in pain...

itll be ok....

with a bit of luck...u will still make the playoffs...;) unless one of ur core players gets suspended for the year...or gets injured and is out for the year...

but that would be ok...cause then u could be in the lottery and make another great lottery pick...

u know...like darko... :laugh: :laugh:

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:42 PM
Yeah, that's kind of my point. I think K was so quick to jump in to the Pistons' defense that he didn't really realize how much power Brown had in this thing. He was going to get SOMETHING for the rest of that contract, as Detroit had broken the contract and had no other recourse. Hell, Detroit is fortunate that he didn't hold them ransom for the ENTIRE amount. The Pistons could have retained him and forced him to coach then, but there's no way that would have ever gone over well. Players can't play for a coach that doesn't even want to be there.

In the end, Brown gets some $$$ to leave and coach NY, and Detroit doesn't have to pay the full $$$ of LB's contract, and can ring in a new coach. Both sides were tring to outsmart each other, but Brown ended up with the edge, and played it to the max.


Oh for the love of god.....

SHade, haven't I been saying from the BEGINNING that there would be a mutual agreement, and that all those wild scnarios I laid out were simply cards being laid on the table by both sides in order to leverage a settlement?

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:44 PM
ur seeing ur so called great team slowly begin its demise....

u must be in pain...

Yeah, I'm just crying all over myself that we're bringing back all the same players that won us back-to-back finals, plus an improved bench. Gosh, how will we ever survive......

You DO realize I've gone through the "The pistons will finally decline next year" discussions here EVERY summer since 2002, right? You aren't catching on to something new. There's always some yahoo that wants to talk trash in the summer, when talk is at it's cheapest. Anybody can talk tough in July. Nothing can be proven till the playoffs.

In the end, I always have the last laugh.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:49 PM
Oh for the love of god.....

SHade, haven't I been saying from the BEGINNING that there would be a mutual agreement, and that all those wild scnarios I laid out were simply cards being laid on the table by both sides in order to leverage a settlement?

I don't know what you were trying to say half the time, K. You post so "matter-of-factly" at times I can't tell if you're speculating or if you know something from the inside that I don't.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:50 PM
I don't know what you were trying to say half the time, K. You post so "matter-of-factly" at times I can't tell if you're speculating or if you know something from the inside that I don't.

Yeah, I'm a good poker player because of that.

:buddies:

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:52 PM
Yeah, I'm just crying all over myself that we're bringing back all the same players that won us back-to-back finals, plus an improved bench. Gosh, how will we ever survive......

You DO realize I've gone through the "The pistons will finally decline next year" discussions here EVERY summer since 2002, right? You aren't catching on to something new. There's always some yahoo that wants to talk trash in the summer, when talk is at it's cheapest. Anybody can talk tough in July. Nothing can be proven till the playoffs.

In the end, I always have the last laugh.

Actually, the Pistons DID decline this past season. If they decline even a notch more, Miami moves ahead of them, as does a healthy Pacers team. More than that, and other teams may be breathing down their throats as well. Not to mention the Spurs.

Detroit is still a very good team, and will still be a legit threat. But they are no longer the frontrunner for Finals rep in the East.

abington
07-19-2005, 09:54 PM
Agreed; regardless of who replaces Brown, the Pistons just went down a notch. Their edge over the Pacers, unless we find a way to screw ourselves again, may be over.

The Pistons have a better point guard, better shooting guard, much better center, head to head a better power forward and a better 6th man. so im not quite sure how their edge over us is over.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:55 PM
Actually, the Pistons DID decline this past season. If they decline even a notch more, Miami moves ahead of them, as does a healthy Pacers team. More than that, and other teams may be breathing down their throats as well. Not to mention the Spurs.

Detroit is still a very good team, and will still be a legit threat. But they are no longer the frontrunner for Finals rep in the East.


See, that's just it, Shade. WAY too many things can happen for you to just say that they've "declined."

Say they sign Finley to come off the bench. Allan Houston? Jalen Rose? BOnzi Wells? ANy of those guys would give us better overall talent than we had last year.

In addition, Arroyo, Delfino and Darko are all learning and any one of them could bust through with Flip's more perimeter-friendly offense, and become a contributor. That could improve us as well.

As I said, nobody will know anything for certain untill playoff time. If we win the east, then I guess we won't have gotten worse. If we do lose before the finals, then I guess you're right.

MOST importantly, we still have the Pacer-killer supreme in Rip Hamilton. That much hasn't changed.

Shade
07-19-2005, 09:56 PM
The Pistons have a better point guard, better shooting guard, much better center, head to head a better power forward and a better 6th man. so im ot quite sure how their edge over us is over.

Two words:

Gar Heard.

Sometimes, a coach can make all the difference in the world. And Flip is no Larry Brown.

On top of that, when the Pacers were healthy, they OWNED the Pistons. As you should know, the Pistons are often inferior in head-to-head matchups, but win as a team. The Pacers are the same way.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 09:57 PM
Two words:

Gar Heard.

Because, every coach is as unbelievably stupid as GAr Heard....

Flip is a hell of a solid coach. I wouldn't be so admant about getting him if I thought he wasn't. You may be of a different opinion, but I think he's the right guy for the job.

sweabs
07-19-2005, 09:59 PM
MOST importantly, we still have the Pacer-killer supreme in Rip Hamilton. That much hasn't changed.

But the defense he will be facing will have.

Remember 11/19?

abington
07-19-2005, 10:00 PM
Two words:

Gar Heard.

Sometimes, a coach can make all the difference in the world. And Flip is no Larry Brown.

On top of that, when the Pacers were healthy, they OWNED the Pistons. As you should know, the Pistons are often inferior in head-to-head matchups, but win as a team. The Pacers are the same way.

i dont know man. i was in the stands during game 4 watching Chauncey make us look like a bunch of b!tches. i hope you're right, but my gut is, is that with their personel, they are still better than us.

Bball
07-19-2005, 10:00 PM
Damn, I really have been out of the loop.

I was under the impression the Spurs won the NBA title last season.........

Kstat decided that didn't count.... so it is 2 titles in a row for the Pistons as far as he is concerned ;)

-Bball

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:00 PM
But the defense he will be facing will have.

Remember 11/19?

I could pick a lot of games the Pistons played in that month that we made our opponent look good defensively....

In the end, nobody on the Pacers has been able to stop Rip when it matters the most. Key word: matters.

BTW, that Pacers team wasn't stopping ANYBODY pre-11/19. They won by outscoring teams, not stopping them.

indytoad
07-19-2005, 10:01 PM
But the defense he will be facing will have.

Remember 11/19?

As much as I would like to get behind you on that one, I have a very hard time believing we would be able to contain Hamilton over the course of a seven-game series. We just don't have anyone who can guard him.

Or Billups.

Or Wallace.

Or the other Wallace.

IndyToad
Non-negotiable

abington
07-19-2005, 10:03 PM
As much as I would like to get behind you on that one, I have a very hard time believing we would be able to contain Hamilton over the course of a seven-game series. We just don't have anyone who can guard him.

Or Billups.

Or Wallace.

Or the other Wallace.

IndyToad
Non-negotiable

exactly. we dont match up well with them. period.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:04 PM
Kstat decided that didn't count.... so it is 2 titles in a row for the Pistons as far as he is concerned ;)

-Bball

Um, I said FINALS, as in Finals appearances. I didn't say CHAMPIONSHIPS, did I?

indygeezer
07-19-2005, 10:05 PM
I could pick a lot of games the Pistons played in that month that we made our opponent look good defensively....

In the end, nobody on the Pacers has been able to stop Rip when it matters the most. Key word: matters.

BTW, that Pacers team wasn't stopping ANYBODY pre-11/19. They won by outscoring teams, not stopping them.

and yet "we" won.

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:05 PM
See, that's just it, Shade. WAY too many things can happen for you to just say that they've "declined."

Say they sign Finley to come off the bench. Allan Houston? Jalen Rose? BOnzi Wells? ANy of those guys would give us better overall talent than we had last year.

In addition, Arroyo, Delfino and Darko are all learning and any one of them could bust through with Flip's more perimeter-friendly offense, and become a contributor. That could improve us as well.

As I said, nobody will know anything for certain untill playoff time. If we win the east, then I guess we won't have gotten worse. If we do lose before the finals, then I guess you're right.

MOST importantly, we still have the Pacer-killer supreme in Rip Hamilton. That much hasn't changed.

The coaching has already declined. Delfino may refuse to even play next season. If you don't bring in an impact payer off the bench, you've (at best) held firm, and that likely won't be enough.

The Pacers have improved by adding Artest and Granger, and moving Jack back to his natural position.

Everything depends on off-season moves. But, so far, the Pistons have declined, the Heat have held firm, and the Pacers and Cavs have improved.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:06 PM
exactly. we dont match up well with them. period.

Neither Jackson nor Artest was able to stop Rip in the playoffs. That's all I look at. More than anything, Rip is the one player on either team that nobody can really guard.

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:09 PM
Neither Jackson nor Artest was able to stop Rip in the playoffs. That's all I look at. More than anything, Rip is the one player on either team that nobody can really guard.

There were times when the Pistons couldn't stop Jack either, in the playoffs, and he was playing out of position. In the 11/19 game, you couldn't stop Ron at all.

Speculation is fun. :)

sweabs
07-19-2005, 10:09 PM
Neither Jackson nor Artest was able to stop Rip in the playoffs. That's all I look at. More than anything, Rip is the one player on either team that nobody can really guard.

But Jackson and Artest guarded him at different times; never were they on the court at the same time together during playoffs, having the opportunity to guard Rip. That is what I'm waiting for...that is what I saw 11/19.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:10 PM
The coaching has already declined. Delfino may refuse to even play next season. If you don't bring in an impact payer off the bench, you've (at best) held firm, and that likely won't be enough.

The Pacers have improved by adding Artest and Granger, and moving Jack back to his natural position.

Everything depends on off-season moves. But, so far, the Pistons have declined, the Heat have held firm, and the Pacers and Cavs have improved.

1. Delfino has already said that he's committed to being a Piston. THis is old news.

2. The Pacers brought back Artest, who my lasting memory will be a guy that shot %25 from the floor against Prince in the ECF, and ball-hogged his way to a Pistons game 6 victory. Until he shows me otherwise, I'm not going to fear a guy who only shows up in meaningless games. As for Granger, we drafted Maxiell. Both are going to be reserves. Which will have a better rookie year? Who knows?

3. And unless you're trying to say the Cavs are a better team than the Pistons, they don't fit into this.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:11 PM
But Jackson and Artest guarded him at different times; never were they on the court at the same time together during playoffs, having the opportunity to guard Rip. That is what I'm waiting for...that is what I saw 11/19.

Oh, were they guarding him TOGETHER? Because unless they were, both of them being on the court together won't make a difference.

Good lord, I hope the Pistons dont beat the Pacers if they play again this November. There could be mass-suicides.

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:11 PM
Im not going down this road with you.

You implied championships, as most do when they post in the manner that you did.

Either way I was just giving you a hard time, as honestly I thought you meant Eastern Confrence champions and just forgot to add the "EC" part.

Ah, but you said "won us back-to-back Finals," implying you won the Finals' series. ;)

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:13 PM
There were times when the Pistons couldn't stop Jack either, in the playoffs, and he was playing out of position. In the 11/19 game, you couldn't stop Ron at all.

Speculation is fun. :)

In the 11/21 game, we made Brevin Knight look like Magic Johnson. I'm cowering at the thought of what he may do to us next year....

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:13 PM
1. Delfino has already said that he's committed to being a Piston. THis is old news.

2. The Pacers brought back Artest, who my lasting memory will be a guy that shot %25 from the floor against Prince in the ECF, and ball-hogged his way to a Pistons game 6 victory. Until he shows me otherwise, I'm not going to fear a guy who only shows up in meaningless games. As for Granger, we drafted Maxiell. Both are going to be reserves. Which will have a better rookie year? Who knows?

3. And unless you're trying to say the Cavs are a better team than the Pistons, they don't fit into this.

1) Missed that.
2) The Artest that played then was NOT the same Artest that started last season. If last season's Artest returns, he's an absolute MONSTER now.
3) I'm not ready to say they are, but they improved significantly. No team in the East can sleep on them now.

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:14 PM
In the 11/21 game, we made Brevin Knight look like Magic Johnson. I'm cowering at the thought of what he may do to us next year....

You didn't have Ben Wallace, either. And both teams went into a tailspin post-brawl.

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:16 PM
Oh, were they guarding him TOGETHER? Because unless they were, both of them being on the court together won't make a difference.

Good lord, I hope the Pistons dont beat the Pacers if they play again this November. There could be mass-suicides.

With both defenders on the court, Rip may still go nuts, but the other players are likely to score less. That could make all the difference in a close game.

And if Jack gets hot, he could offset Rip. We saw some of that this season.

sweabs
07-19-2005, 10:18 PM
Oh, were they guarding him TOGETHER? Because unless they were, both of them being on the court together won't make a difference.

Good lord, I hope the Pistons dont beat the Pacers if they play again this November. There could be mass-suicides.

It's within the concept of team defence.

The two of them can throw a pesky double-team at him once in a while. They can both be chippy and aggressive with him when he's running around down there. Together, they can set that aggressive tone, defensively. They can also help to deny Rip the ball, playing the passing lanes, etc. as both are quite capable of stealing the ball.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:19 PM
You didn't have Ben Wallace, either. And both teams went into a tailspin post-brawl.

.....and we made Loren Woods look like the 2nd coming of Kareem on 11/5

.....we coughed up 117 points to the Nuggets on 11/11

.....we made the Raul Lopez and Okur look like Stockton and Malone.

Guess we must have been in our "pre-brawl" slump?

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:20 PM
.....and we made Loren Woods look like the 2nd coming of Kareem on 11/5

.....we coughed up 117 points to the Nuggets on 11/11

.....we made the Raul Lopez and Okur look like Stockton and Malone.

What can I say? You guys suck. ;)

My point is, Ron played like that in pretty much every game leading up to the brawl.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:21 PM
It's within the concept of team defence.

The two of them can throw a pesky double-team at him once in a while. They can both be chippy and aggressive with him when he's running around down there. Together, they can set that aggressive tone, defensively. They can also help to deny Rip the ball, playing the passing lanes, etc. as both are quite capable of stealing the ball.


..and whenever the Pacers have ever put extra help on Hamilton, either Billups or Prince has killed them. That's not a new strategy.

And neither of them are going to deny him the ball, because they both suck at fighting through screens. At least Jackson is average doing it, though. Artest is awful at it.

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:23 PM
What can I say? You guys suck. ;)

My point is, Ron played like that in pretty much every game leading up to the brawl.


Yeah, but it's all speculation to think the Pacers could have extended that red-hot start for 82 games. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The Pistons understand that concept better than most teams.

To be fair, the Pacers were playing awesome basketball in November.

However, I've seen a lot of teams start out that hot, and fizzle at the finish line. It works both ways.

Hopefully this year, we'll see.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 10:24 PM
BTW, that Pacers team wasn't stopping ANYBODY pre-11/19. They won by outscoring teams, not stopping them.

you know...ive read this like twenty times....and im still not sure i can make sense out of it....

is the idea to stop a team?

or to outscore them?

i guess, technically detroit stopped the pacers on 11/19.....but definitely got outscored that nite.......if thats what u mean...i guess i understand ;)

i will be quite content if we are able to outscore all of our opponents in next years playoffs, even if we cant stop them....

i can see it now.....the champions who never stopped anybody....woohooo...i have one question...is that better or worse than winning a title when every team u play is injured?....or are they the same?

Hicks
07-19-2005, 10:25 PM
Personally I see our victory against the Pistons coming through in our offense, not our defense.*

That's what I thought before 11/19, and for the first 47 minutes of that game, that had been on my mind big time. We were never, and will still never, out-defend Detroit. You can't do it. You have to out-score them. Not the best strategy for beating MOST teams; usually it does come down to having superior D, but thankfully against MOST teams, we DO have that. But not Detroit. We will never in the immediate future be a superior defensive team than them. We can only beat them by giving them more offense than they can handle, and let our D simply continue to NOT let them blow up, which they don't have the firepower to do 90% of the time. I think Jax is still the key. Ron may or may not learn to score on Prince, but even if he does not, using Jackson to score from the 2 is a lot better against Detroit than a 39 year old, passive, Reggie Miller. His net-worth offensively against the Pistons is probably why we will eventually prove victorious.

*sad that I have to add this, but since this thread has been all about nitpicking, yes I know winning certainly isn't guarunteed*

Kstat
07-19-2005, 10:25 PM
i can see it now.....the champions who never stopped anybody....woohooo...i have one question...is that better or worse than winning a title when every team u play is injured?....or are they the same?

It's certainly better than being a bitter sore loser with no titles at all :laugh:

Scoreboard.

Shade
07-19-2005, 10:27 PM
Yeah, but it's all speculation to think the Pacers could have extended that red-hot start for 82 games. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The Pistons understand that concept better than most teams.

To be fair, the Pacers were playing awesome basketball in November.

However, I've seen a lot of teams start out that hot, and fizzle at the finish line. It works both ways.

Hopefully this year, we'll see.

Well, seeing as how they won 61 games the previous season and went to the ECF, I feel fairly good in my speculation. ;)

foretaz
07-19-2005, 10:28 PM
Delfino has already said that he's committed to being a Piston. THis is old news.

wow...didnt larry brown say the same thing?




And unless you're trying to say the Cavs are a better team than the Pistons, they don't fit into this.

by the end of the year, they very well could beat the pistons in a 7 game series....;)