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Shade
07-18-2005, 02:37 PM
http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=397069

Los Angeles
07-18-2005, 03:05 PM
For those who can't click:



at the summer league in Minnesota, between games. Here's what we talked about:
-I asked him where Bender was, and he said he didn't know, but he was just there to prove that he could play through a game without any pain in his knee. When I asked if he would get minutes, the reply was if he is healthy, he would back up Ron (Bender wants to play on the perimeter), and maybe even see time with JO on the bench and Ron at the 4.
-I asked him about the Lakers deal bs, and he said he never heard anything about it, but the media makes up a lot of stuff. He also said if Bender is healthy, there is no way you even consider trading him.
-I asked him if anybody else would be brought in, and he said he didn't think so, before the incident in Detroit, he thought they had a team that could win the finals. I asked him if James Jones would be brought back, and he said maybe, but he really wouldn't be suprised if another team overpaid for him. Said it was ironic, how Jones wouldn't have played much if it wasn't for the brawl in Detroit, and they could have re-signed him cheap.
-The Jones question lead to a discussion on the guys getting overpaid this offseason. He told me that they were getting overpaid, but it is market value since there are 3 or 4 teams offering each of these guys a bloated deal. He said he never would have signed Hughes to that deal.
-I wished him good luck for this season. and later:

I guess I might as well tell you guys that it was Chuck Person.

This has a ring of truth, mostly because this goes along the 'official' company line from top to bottom.

Anthem
07-18-2005, 03:24 PM
I'm totally in the dark as to what's going on w/ Bender.

ChicagoJ
07-18-2005, 03:34 PM
He's supposed to play in a couple summer league games to show off his healthy knee, but they still don't think he can play in back-to-backs. :neutral:

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 03:38 PM
He's supposed to play in a couple summer league games to show off his healthy knee, but they still don't think he can play in back-to-backs. :neutral:

He left after one game. And didn't tell anyone. According to some at the party he just decided that he felt good after one game and decided to go home without notifying the Pacers.

If this is true, cut him right now. :censored:

This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to trade Artest, and Artest is arguably the best SF in the league. Bender just needs to be canned and start running crappy basketball camps.

Gamble
07-18-2005, 03:41 PM
Most people don't even consider Bender apart of the team anymore.
He has an expiration date of 1 game/season.

pacerlife
07-18-2005, 03:43 PM
What does this have to do with artest???

Anthem
07-18-2005, 03:46 PM
He's supposed to play in a couple summer league games to show off his healthy knee, but they still don't think he can play in back-to-backs. :neutral:

Yeah, that's what got me too.

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 03:47 PM
What does this have to do with artest???

Nothing, I just wanted to point out that I am not being hypocritical.

Artest, over the years, missed several flights, refused to board planes, missed practice, etc...

So since I am always a trade Artest advocate, I just wanted to show that I wouldn't tolerate this stuff from Bender

MagicRat
07-18-2005, 03:57 PM
I just wanted to show that I wouldn't tolerate this stuff from Bender

How many other 6 year vets showed up for even one game of summer league?........

RWB
07-18-2005, 04:02 PM
Nothing, I just wanted to point out that I am not being hypocritical.

Artest, over the years, missed several flights, refused to board planes, missed practice, etc...

So since I am always a trade Artest advocate, I just wanted to show that I wouldn't tolerate this stuff from Bender

Ok, I admit it. Even I have had enough of Bender and want to see him gone. Jon boy loves New Orleans and I just wish we could find a way to accomadate the young man in going there.

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 04:06 PM
How many other 6 year vets showed up for even one game of summer league?........

Well in our case 2.

Both of them have serious questions about them that only they can answer. And only one is trying. OMG I just complimented Artest. :-o You truly are a Magic Rat.

Unclebuck
07-18-2005, 04:19 PM
How many other 6 year vets showed up for even one game of summer league?........


I was thinking the same thing. The fact that he left the summer lague is not that big a deal to me. I just don't think he'll ever be healthy and he certainly won't be healthy enough to play a lot of NBA games.

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 04:30 PM
I was thinking the same thing. The fact that he left the summer lague is not that big a deal to me. I just don't think he'll ever be healthy and he certainly won't be healthy enough to play a lot of NBA games.

While I still would not have like it had the Pacers just decided not to play him, I especially don't like it if he just up and left. Way to show committment to improving your skill. :rolleyes:

Los Angeles
07-18-2005, 04:46 PM
I need to know where the information is that suggests that Bender just up and left? Are we just blowing up rumors? Are we possibly misinterpreting? Is there a report or article? Is there a trustworthy source close to the situation that said that this is exactly what happened?

Help me out here, I need to connect the dots in order to believe it word for word.

Thanks. :)

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 04:52 PM
I need to know where the information is that suggests that Bender just up and left? Are we just blowing up rumors? Are we possibly misinterpreting? Is there a report or article? Is there a trustworthy source close to the situation that said that this is exactly what happened?

Help me out here, I need to connect the dots in order to believe it word for word.

Thanks. :)

I had no idea about this until RWB told me at the party. I believe he has some inside connections. :D

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 04:58 PM
Plus, if this is Chuck in the original post, then when asked where Bender was at he said he didn't know. I can only ASSume that the head coach would know where one of his players was at even if he left. He could have said that he has gone home to recuperate or something.

Will Galen
07-18-2005, 04:59 PM
I need to know where the information is that suggests that Bender just up and left? Are we just blowing up rumors? Are we possibly misinterpreting? Is there a report or article? Is there a trustworthy source close to the situation that said that this is exactly what happened?

Help me out here, I need to connect the dots in order to believe it word for word.

Thanks. :)


http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13404

Will Galen
07-18-2005, 05:03 PM
Plus, if this is Chuck in the original post, then when asked where Bender was at he said he didn't know. I can only ASSume that the head coach would know where one of his players was at even if he left. He could have said that he has gone home to recuperate or something.

My understanding is Bender said he was taking a break just before he left camp. If so he might not have said where he was going.

It sounds to me like Bender is unhappy with the Pacers making him play in the rookie, free agent camp.

I can understand his side of it, but I can see the Pacers side too.

waxman
07-18-2005, 05:08 PM
Are we just blowing up rumors? Are we possibly misinterpreting? Is there a report or article?



That would never happen here. ;)

Diamond Dave
07-18-2005, 05:08 PM
My understanding is Bender said he was taking a break just before he left camp. If so he might not have said where he was going.

It sounds to me like Bender is unhappy with the Pacers making him play in the rookie, free agent camp.

I can understand his side of it, but I can see the Pacers side too.

I can't understand his side of it. True, proven expirienced veterans should not be forced to play in the summer league. He is not a proven expireinced veteran. He is just a man who has held an NBA roster spot for 6 years. Its about time he shows that he deserves it.


I've always had a sneaky suspicion that the Pacers have somewhat wanted to hide Jon. They built him up so much through legendary practice stories that he can never live up to it. Plus aside from the amazing athletic stuff, and the SportsCenter highlights, the guy is not a basketball player.

Los Angeles
07-18-2005, 05:33 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13404
I don't see anything there that tells us how anyone felt when he left. I think we'll just have to wait and find out what's really going on before we claim that he quit on the team.

foretaz
07-18-2005, 06:06 PM
at the risk of sounding a bit like iverson....

this is summer league....summer league...

the games dont count...they are strictly for young players to showcase themselves....any veterans that choose to utilize them for any purpose whatsoever may do so....but even that is limited by the amount of players u can have doing that...artest is using it for a number of reasons....and with it comes the chance that he could get hurt....

bender and the team obviously have reasons for him playing a game or two as well....quite likely to see how the knee responds to an actual game situation....or who knows what else...

but if bender is somewhat healthy...given his tendency to get hurt, would u really want that to happen in a meaningless summer league game when hes playing non nba talent????? everything we read is that hes been working non stop with dyrek to rehab....by the looks of him he obviously is working out a great deal.....

they clearly stated he wasnt playing the whole league....they indicated he would only play two games....so whats the big deal????let him continue the rehab and do everything in a way that increases the chances of him being able to contribute....and come exhibition time we will probably see him a bit more.....bottom line is

its summer league...summer league...

Knucklehead Warrior
07-18-2005, 06:42 PM
at the risk of sounding a bit like iverson....
this is summer league....summer league...
the games dont count...they are strictly for young players to showcase themselves....any veterans that choose to utilize them for any purpose whatsoever may do so....but even that is limited by the amount of players u can have doing that...artest is using it for a number of reasons....and with it comes the chance that he could get hurt....
bender and the team obviously have reasons for him playing a game or two as well....quite likely to see how the knee responds to an actual game situation....or who knows what else...
but if bender is somewhat healthy...given his tendency to get hurt, would u really want that to happen in a meaningless summer league game when hes playing non nba talent????? everything we read is that hes been working non stop with dyrek to rehab....by the looks of him he obviously is working out a great deal.....
they clearly stated he wasnt playing the whole league....they indicated he would only play two games....so whats the big deal????let him continue the rehab and do everything in a way that increases the chances of him being able to contribute....and come exhibition time we will probably see him a bit more.....bottom line is
its summer league...summer league...
Once again, this is something that probably falls into the category of "People a lot smarter than us have already figured this out." Bender owes us nothing in the summer league. Perhaps as part of his rehab it was thought that a summer league game or two might give them some barometer as to how he's progressing. I don't think there's anything more to read into this than that. Even IF he left a summer league game because of a hangnail or because his mother said to, so what?

BBALL56HACKER
07-18-2005, 07:28 PM
Could be J.B. is just wanting to save all his ten games for the `REAL' season. You wouldn`t. want him to use any of his games up now in the summer games?

Bball
07-18-2005, 07:50 PM
Bender thought it was a H.O.R.S.E. tournament. When he found out it was real basketball games he went back home.

-Bball

RWB
07-19-2005, 10:00 AM
I had no idea about this until RWB told me at the party. I believe he has some inside connections. :D

Not this time DD. ;)

Actually the Bender reference was from Wil (?) on channel 6. Can't give you the exact quote but Wil (?) had been talking to the 6 reporter covering the summer league games and was told Bender had left right after the game to go home to New Orleans. Was expected to play two games, but decided not to. Bird and Carlisle were asked about it and were surprised because that was the first they had heard of it.

I guess if they want to spin it they can say (Bird and Carlisle) were taken out of context and what they were saying is they were surprised not that Bender left, but that he was suppose to play two games when really maybe it was only suppose be one.

I'm just done with the guy after this. Like I said, I've talked with a few folks who think the sun set's in this guys back side especially when it comes to supporting HIS local community. That's great and the more players do that the more I have no problem with their high salaries. However, Bendee needs to remember who his employer is and he does owe them something. Working out and being watched by Dyrek was a good start, but it's starting to look like Bender is spoiled. Working out at XU with division III college kids these past years was not good enough, and I believe Bird wasn't going to accept that anymore. As we discussed at the party I believe Walsh still runs the show, but Larry Bird is really starting to flex his wings (yes pun intended) with this team.

Diamond Dave
07-19-2005, 10:59 AM
Bender thought it was a H.O.R.S.E. tournament. When he found out it was real basketball games he went back home.

-Bball

:laugh: :censored:

Jose Slaughter
07-19-2005, 11:50 AM
at the risk of sounding a bit like iverson....

this is summer league....summer league...

the games dont count...they are strictly for young players to showcase themselves....any veterans that choose to utilize them for any purpose whatsoever may do so....but even that is limited by the amount of players u can have doing that...artest is using it for a number of reasons....and with it comes the chance that he could get hurt....

bender and the team obviously have reasons for him playing a game or two as well....quite likely to see how the knee responds to an actual game situation....or who knows what else...

but if bender is somewhat healthy...given his tendency to get hurt, would u really want that to happen in a meaningless summer league game when hes playing non nba talent????? everything we read is that hes been working non stop with dyrek to rehab....by the looks of him he obviously is working out a great deal.....

they clearly stated he wasnt playing the whole league....they indicated he would only play two games....so whats the big deal????let him continue the rehab and do everything in a way that increases the chances of him being able to contribute....and come exhibition time we will probably see him a bit more.....bottom line is

its summer league...summer league...

The problem I have is, he left the "team".

Hang out with the guys, practice, do what ever it is you're doing, but why walk out on your team when you're only gonna be there about 3 or 4 more days?

What could he do at home that he couldn't do in MN?

Bball
07-19-2005, 11:58 AM
Maybe he found out the Pacers were 'showcasing' him because they have no intention of wasting a roster spot or another year on him?

Oh let that be so....


-Bball

Since86
07-19-2005, 12:04 PM
The problem I have is, he left the "team".

Hang out with the guys, practice, do what ever it is you're doing, but why walk out on your team when you're only gonna be there about 3 or 4 more days?

What could he do at home that he couldn't do in MN?


The only "Pacers" he walked out on is Harrison and Ron.


It was reported that Bender was going to play atleast one game. He played one game. It was also said that he was going to be reevaluated after that one game to see how his knee holds up. Sounds like there isn't a whole lot of information out there right now, and for all we know his knee felt like crap and went back for rehab.

It's really all speculation right now, and why get your panties in a bunch with a player when you only have tidbits to work with?

foretaz
07-19-2005, 12:14 PM
The problem I have is, he left the "team".

Hang out with the guys, practice, do what ever it is you're doing, but why walk out on your team when you're only gonna be there about 3 or 4 more days?

What could he do at home that he couldn't do in MN?

im sorry jose, but i kinda disagree in this case....if this were training camp it would be one thing...

but this isnt the pacers team, and that somehow seems to be getting lost a bit...all the players from the team, once the playoffs are over, go home....only a few live in indy, the others go to their perspective homes and have been there for the better part of a month and a half....going on vacations, relaxing, taking a break...

by all accounts, bender has been working out and rehabbing....not that players dont work out in the offseason, but the feeling ive gotten is hes been with dyrek and not been on his summer break....now while some may argue he was on break all season, thats not totally fair, and very inaccurate...while unable to play hes still with the team the whole time and isnt on vacation....so while everyone might be upset about his inability to play, he still in reality has been continuing to work overtime while others went on summer vacation....

given the situation, spending time with a bunch of guys that will never see the pacers roster doesnt seem to make a lot of sense...and not alot to be gained by just hanging around....the summer league is a much different environment than training camp or the regular season....its an evaluation period for non roster players...and a few very young players use it as a tool to better their game....though one can argue ur not going to better it against inferior competition, hence the reason u dont see many actual nba players there....

im guessing whatever little time he might have had to spend with david and ron probably doesnt constitute a reason to hang around in minnesota for a week....

RWB
07-19-2005, 12:20 PM
The only "Pacers" he walked out on is Harrison and Ron.


And Chuck Person, and Dan Burke, and Donnie Walsh, and Larry Bird.

We've had the same discussions about Artest and why people would like to see him go. Well Bender is falling into the same trap by not thinking about his employer. Whether these guys like it or not this is not college or high school ball with a break. Being professional means a full time job. Now I'm not saying players do not deserve time off to heal or recharge. You can do that and still give your employer (the Pacers) productivity by letting them know what's going on.

I agree completely with Jose. "Hang out with the guys, practice, do what ever it is you're doing, but why walk out on your team when you're only gonna be there about 3 or 4 more days?"

Since86
07-19-2005, 12:31 PM
And Chuck Person, and Dan Burke, and Donnie Walsh, and Larry Bird.

We've had the same discussions about Artest and why people would like to see him go. Well Bender is falling into the same trap by not thinking about his employer. Whether these guys like it or not this is not college or high school ball with a break. Being professional means a full time job. Now I'm not saying players do not deserve time off to heal or recharge. You can do that and still give your employer (the Pacers) productivity by letting them know what's going on.

I agree completely with Jose. "Hang out with the guys, practice, do what ever it is you're doing, but why walk out on your team when you're only gonna be there about 3 or 4 more days?"


I took the quote as saying he walked out on his teammates. I have really really hard time seeing that he would just leave without talking to Burke, and each one running it by management.

Like I said, it's all speculation right now. How do you know that he didn't get the 'OK' to take off?

RWB
07-19-2005, 12:35 PM
I took the quote as saying he walked out on his teammates. I have really really hard time seeing that he would just leave without talking to Burke, and each one running it by management.

Like I said, it's all speculation right now. How do you know that he didn't get the 'OK' to take off?

Actually the Bender reference was from Wil (?) on channel 6. Can't give you the exact quote but Wil (?) had been talking to the 6 reporter covering the summer league games and was told Bender had left right after the game to go home to New Orleans. Was expected to play two games, but decided not to. Bird and Carlisle were asked about it and were surprised because that was the first they had heard of it.

Kegboy
07-19-2005, 12:38 PM
I took the quote as saying he walked out on his teammates. I have really really hard time seeing that he would just leave without talking to Burke, and each one running it by management.

Like I said, it's all speculation right now. How do you know that he didn't get the 'OK' to take off?

Exactly.

Since86
07-19-2005, 12:43 PM
Actually the Bender reference was from Wil (?) on channel 6. Can't give you the exact quote but Wil (?) had been talking to the 6 reporter covering the summer league games and was told Bender had left right after the game to go home to New Orleans. Was expected to play two games, but decided not to. Bird and Carlisle were asked about it and were surprised because that was the first they had heard of it.


So because a reporter, reported it, it's factual? Not saying he is intentionally misleading people, but what I get out of a conversation/look might be completely different then what you would get out of it.

They may have gaven a sarcastic comment, that wasn't taken sarcastically.

I just can't fathom a player just leaving a summer league without telling brass, when it was discussed that he would probably play only one game.

RWB
07-19-2005, 12:51 PM
So because a reporter, reported it, it's factual?
Good point and I really can't argue against it. The only reason I would give this a little more credence is because of the person talking about it. Wish I could remember that guys last name (Wil), but he is not your average I want to be famous and stir up controversy stuff. He is an actual fan of both the Pacers and Colts as compared to a dip like Kravitz.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess. Believe me ask around on here and see if I'm happy if Bender did this?

Shade
07-19-2005, 01:30 PM
For those who want to move Bender, the question remains the same as it's been. He has no real trade value, so why trade him for a player that won't be in the rotation anyway? It's worth riding his potential over that, especailly if you factor in the time we've already put into him, and how he could blow up some place else.

The best thing to do when talking about Bender is to not even consider him a part of the team. Anything he does for us is a bonus.

Bball
07-19-2005, 01:42 PM
For those who want to move Bender, the question remains the same as it's been. He has no real trade value, so why trade him for a player that won't be in the rotation anyway? It's worth riding his potential over that, especailly if you factor in the time we've already put into him, and how he could blow up some place else.-snip-


The answer I would give you is this:
You trade him... or cut him.... to admit the mistake and move on. To no longer have to make team decisions with any question marks about about Bender (No 'what ifs').

You get rid of him to send a signal to other players that if you can't or won't help the team then the team can't afford to coddle you. No prima donnas allowed... no softies either. "Potential" just means you haven't done it yet and 6 years is long enough (3 was long enough) to wait.

And IMHO we pretty much know what Bender gives us. The chances of him going elsewhere and exploding are slim to none. And if he does, more power to him because I don't think it could happen here anyway due to our roster.

Also, if last year taught us anything it should be that you can't waste roster spots on players who can't or won't help them team when needed. You simply have to be able to at least give us a warm body in the darkest hours or you are worthless. "Potential" means nothing if you can't get off the bench... or even out of street clothes.

And someone mentioned Bender still being at the games last season and a part of the team.... IIRC there were several games, stretches even, where he was nowhere to be found. Supposedly he was rehabbing somewhere, tho I'm sure he could've caught a flight back to the game(s) if he really wanted to be there with the team.



-Bball

Shade
07-19-2005, 01:49 PM
And IMHO we pretty much know what Bender gives us. The chances of him going elsewhere and exploding are slim to none. And if he does, more power to him because I don't think it could happen here anyway due to our roster.

Also, if last year taught us anything it should be that you can't waste roster spots on players who can't or won't help them team when needed. You simply have to be able to at least give us a warm body in the darkest hours or you are worthless. "Potential" means nothing if you can't get off the bench... or even out of street clothes.

So, you would gamble Bender becoming a star for a competitor? I wouldn't. We haven't seen what a fully healthy Bender can do, but we've seen glimpses, and they've been pretty impressive.

As for a "warm body," I'm willing to bet that Bender still got more PT last season than John Edwards did.

Mourning
07-19-2005, 02:03 PM
Well in our case 2.

Both of them have serious questions about them that only they can answer. And only one is trying. OMG I just complimented Artest. :-o You truly are a Magic Rat.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

foretaz
07-19-2005, 02:18 PM
The answer I would give you is this:
You trade him... or cut him.... to admit the mistake and move on. To no longer have to make team decisions with any question marks about about Bender (No 'what ifs').

they cant trade him.... because they cant get anything in return...for the same reasons ur down on him, other teams wont trade another player with similar salary for him, unless hes in the same situation as bender, in which case, what purpose does that serve? as far as cutting him...theres something called a guaranteed contract that prevents that....youre going to pay him, he might as well be around...thats the way the business works...a mistake may or may not have been made....that isnt an issue now....mistakes are made every day...dwelling on them only and allowing emotions to dictate how u handle that would be deemed inappropriate and foolhardy...as far as decisions being made with whatifs in mind...bird and carlisle have clearly indicated their go forward strategy is to assume he wont be able to contribute and whatever he does do will be a bonus...


You get rid of him to send a signal to other players that if you can't or won't help the team then the team can't afford to coddle you. No prima donnas allowed... no softies either. "Potential" just means you haven't done it yet and 6 years is long enough (3 was long enough) to wait.

send a message? what message is that? that if u get hurt we will cut you?and i have to say anytime i see someone allude to the fact that a player isnt playing because they dont want to-well i cant help but laugh....how can anyone possibly claim to know this??? nevermind the concept is laughable...has anyone that makes these statements ever played sports? these guys are athletes...theyre competitors...they want to play...how anyone could think otherwise is beyond me....it wreaks of jealousy and envy due to the fact theyre making so much money...i can just hear it "if they were paying me 7 million a year, id play come hell or high water"...no...u wouldnt....one if ur physically unable to play...ur UNABLE TO PLAY...and all the desire in the world wont fix that....nevermind the fact that any attempt to play in such circumstance would only cause further permanent damage....and considering the investments teams make in these players, that would seem like an utterly stupid decision...this team found out what bringing players back to soon etc. does to a player...look at the caution that is being utilized where granger is concerned....u think benders situation didnt affect that...he obviously tried to play before when he shouldnt have....imagine that-the very thing u accuse him of not doing...and what was the result??? hes now been out the better part of 3 years...

this whole line of reasoning seems absurd to me....if anyone is bitter about him not being able to play...thats understandable...to think that jon isnt the one whos most bitter and frustrated would be even more crazy....he had an opportunity to have his coming out party this past year....and he was physically UNABLE to do so....u think thats what he wanted???? cmon...get real


And IMHO we pretty much know what Bender gives us. The chances of him going elsewhere and exploding are slim to none. And if he does, more power to him because I don't think it could happen here anyway due to our roster.

i think that the brass does have an idea of what he COULD give us if healthy...and they are much more informed and educated than we are with regard to such subjects....and thats probably one of the reasons theyd love to have jon healthy as well...and dont want him on another team...that being said...its already been mentioned...he cant be traded...and it has everything to do with health and nothing to do with ability...if he was healthy, teams would be lined up trying to get him...


Also, if last year taught us anything it should be that you can't waste roster spots on players who can't or won't help them team when needed. You simply have to be able to at least give us a warm body in the darkest hours or you are worthless. "Potential" means nothing if you can't get off the bench... or even out of street clothes.

cant or wont? pffft....get it right...physically unable to....remember pollard?? he was physically unable to...jamaal sat out as well...foster?..the list goes on...IF U CANT PLAY PHYSICALLY, U CANT PLAY....these insinuations that someone is choosing to not play are just beyond me....if u think for one minute that is the case and the management wouldnt cut him and seek breach of contract , well....but this whole notion is , as ive said, absurd....


And someone mentioned Bender still being at the games last season and a part of the team.... IIRC there were several games, stretches even, where he was nowhere to be found. Supposedly he was rehabbing somewhere, tho I'm sure he could've caught a flight back to the game(s) if he really wanted to be there with the team.

let me get this straight....bender is in boston working with dyrek...he should get on a plane and fly to indy to sit on a bench for a game and then fly back after the game....and resume training again the next day and go on with that type of schedule....cmon...really...most are too smart for this type of supposition....can it be any more obvious this is just frustration from his physically being unable to perform??? and this is how we handle it, with comments like this??? cmon...



-Bball[/QUOTE]

look i know everyone is frustrated with benders situation...one of the reasons is we have seen glimpses, been teased, with some of what he can do....and the longing for more of it on a consistent basis is natural....he could definitely help in winning a title....

but everyone is frustrated, not just the fans....management, ownership, fans, teammates, and bender the most...but considering who knows what in this situation, i find it ironic that fans-who have basically no knowledge(which probably makes the problem worse)-are claiming that this is more about an attitude and desire problem than a physical problem...

being upset and frustrated is one thing...ranting and ravings as this are illadvised and unfounded....and i cant see where it might help anyone cope with the frustration...if this sort of venting does help...well...so be it....no matter how distorted that might be...

noone says anyone has to like bender...or be anything but unhappy about his situation....but the guy is a human being....just like u and me....and for us to have such little knowledge and then berate him like this is well...u figure it out...im sorry, but it doesnt speak very highly of someone when they have no knowledge of a situation and then proceed to make the sort of judgements that are being made....

remember something also...this is a business, as well...if indeed bender has physical issues that will prohibit him from playing, there are recourses for the team in the form of medical exceptions etc....they also are covered and have been covered by insurance policies where benders contract is concerned....so bleive it or not, austin croshere has cost the pacers far more than bender has-given the fact that insurance payments have been made...

thankfully the people making the decisions where bender are concerned are far more informed and much more prone to remain emotionally balanced and rational when it comes to such decisions...things simply dont work the way they are suggested here...u just dont cut someone because ur pi$$ed theyve been chronically hurt and unable to play...

RWB
07-19-2005, 02:31 PM
remember something also...this is a business, as well...if indeed bender has physical issues that will prohibit him from playing, there are recourses for the team in the form of medical exceptions etc....they also are covered and have been covered by insurance policies where benders contract is concerned....so bleive it or not, austin croshere has cost the pacers far more than bender has-given the fact that insurance payments have been made...


I can't remember the P's ever using the exception? Kellogg, Stipo, George McCloud (you thought Artest has emotional problems), or Scot Haskins.

foretaz
07-19-2005, 02:35 PM
I can't remember the P's ever using the exception? Kellogg, Stipo, George McCloud (you thought Artest has emotional problems), or Scot Haskins.

now im going off the top of my head here, but im pretty sure the medical exemption has changed drastically from the years u mentioned...and for some reason i was thinking its happened in the last 10 years or so....

RWB
07-19-2005, 02:40 PM
Maybe with Scot Haskins Taz. You bringing up the medical part just reminded me of our frustration with how McCloud(sp) turned out. He was really going to help the team but never got over the hump. Rumor had it the poor guy suffered from big time depression and could never get out of a funk. Too bad.

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 02:51 PM
Maybe with Scot Haskins Taz. You bringing up the medical part just reminded me of our frustration with how McCloud(sp) turned out. He was really going to help the team but never got over the hump. Rumor had it the poor guy suffered from big time depression and could never get out of a funk. Too bad.

Well, both of his parents died shortly after he joined the Pacers, IIRC. These guys are human, that couldn't have been easy.

The only thing I've ever faulted McCloud for was when he sprained his ankle during the 1991 playoffs - WHILE TALKING ON THE PHONE IN HIS HOTEL ROOM!!

foretaz
07-19-2005, 02:58 PM
Well, both of his parents died shortly after he joined the Pacers, IIRC. These guys are human, that couldn't have been easy.

The only thing I've ever faulted McCloud for was when he sprained his ankle during the 1991 playoffs - WHILE TALKING ON THE PHONE IN HIS HOTEL ROOM!!

maybe u didnt get all the details jay....they might have made that situation a bit more understandable...

the phone number dialed was 1-900-NBA-BALL

RWB
07-19-2005, 03:00 PM
Well, both of his parents died shortly after he joined the Pacers, IIRC. These guys are human, that couldn't have been easy.

The only thing I've ever faulted McCloud for was when he sprained his ankle during the 1991 playoffs - WHILE TALKING ON THE PHONE IN HIS HOTEL ROOM!!

Sorry Jay I wasn't making fun of McCloud at all. Guess I should have been a little more clear. Just thinking out loud this isn't the first time the Pacers have had to deal with guys with emotional problems. You are right he had to deal with some really tuff issues and people were VERY concerned about his well being. Difference being he wasn't going after people in the stands, but could have taken steps by his own hands so to speak. :(

ChicagoJ
07-19-2005, 04:25 PM
Oh, your comments were fine. I was just confirming that he did indeed have documented issues with depression and for an understandable reason.

I should've said that was the only "off-court" thing I blamed on McCloud, because he sure sucked when he was on the court. :devil:

Bball
07-19-2005, 04:36 PM
thankfully the people making the decisions where bender are concerned are far more informed and much more prone to remain emotionally balanced and rational when it comes to such decisions...things simply dont work the way they are suggested here...u just dont cut someone because ur pi$$ed theyve been chronically hurt and unable to play...

First, I know you just don't cut someone and lose their salary obligation. But you do get rid of their roster spot and open it up for a player who can contribute. Also, we have the question marks surrounding the amnesty program and what that means to a player's status. And on a regular 'waiving' we would lose some of his salary IF someone actually signed him after he cleared waivers (I won't even pretend that someone would take his whole contract and pick him up on waivers). Wouldn't that speak volumes if he cleared waivers and nobody wanted him even at basement prices?

Also, I agree Bender has no trade value except as filler... But guess what- No trade value except filler means nobody else will bank on his 'potential'. Why are we still doing it?

And chronically injured or not, the reasons don't matter... if a player is worthless to the team... he's worthless to the team. At a point, the bad has to outweigh the good. As I said, if we are wasting a roster spot then eventually you have to consider that. It's not like we are waiting on an NBA All Star to hopefully heal. We are waiting on a guy who has been a non-factor since 1999.

-BBall

foretaz
07-19-2005, 04:56 PM
First, I know you just don't cut someone and lose their salary obligation. But you do get rid of their roster spot and open it up for a player who can contribute. Also, we have the question marks surrounding the amnesty program and what that means to a player's status. And on a regular 'waiving' we would lose some of his salary IF someone actually signed him after he cleared waivers (I won't even pretend that someone would take his whole contract and pick him up on waivers). Wouldn't that speak volumes if he cleared waivers and nobody wanted him even at basement prices?

Also, I agree Bender has no trade value except as filler... But guess what- No trade value except filler means nobody else will bank on his 'potential'. Why are we still doing it?

And chronically injured or not, the reasons don't matter... if a player is worthless to the team... he's worthless to the team. At a point, the bad has to outweigh the good. As I said, if we are wasting a roster spot then eventually you have to consider that. It's not like we are waiting on an NBA All Star to hopefully heal. We are waiting on a guy who has been a non-factor since 1999.

-BBall


bball i like this response...very rational...and im not trying to be condescending, believe it or not...

the point is this....the reason bender has no trade value has nothing to do with potential...and i think thats what ur not wanting to really admit...the reason he has no trade value has to do with one thing and one thing only...

health

teams arent going to commit 15 million to a guy that hasnt played in 3 years due to health reasons....and guys making that kind of money arent filler....

but rest assured...jon has showed more than enuff for people to believe in his potential...and thats not just pacers people....

as far as why we dont cut him and use the roster spot...first of all, the facts of the matter are there are gonna be guys that dont play on the roster....last year was a fluke and we all know it....suspensions and injuries all at once...

ur banking on his becoming healthy not realizing his potential....if he becomes healthy, then u can do a number of things with him....use him, trade him or whatever....as bird has clearly stated, and accurately so, a guy like bender that is injured like he is, has no trade value-and once again this is due to health and not potential....

so u have to get him healthy...before u can do anything...and the fact its taken as long as it has is unbelievably frustrating and maddening...but hey...it is what it is......mistakes appear to have been made in the handling of the injuries over the years...whether its coming back to soon, misdiagnosing or whatever....but all that matters now is getting him healthy...and then dealing with that...

if at some point, its deemed hes not ever capable of being healthy enuff to play, then u deal with that...there have been examples....and thats sad, not just for us fans, but for jon as well....

if the pacers wouldnt have re-signed him, then someone else wouldve been dealing with these problems....but hindsight is 20 20....u think the pacers wouldve re-signed him if they knew this was going to happen?? surely not...we cant blame them for the decision based on the facts they had available....any attempt to do so is really just using his health issues to avoid the real issues....the pacers did what they shouldve when they re-signed him, like it or not....him having all these health problems doesnt change that, like it or not....sometimes things just happen...and they dont work out....he was signed to a long term deal...so u just do what u gotta do for the length of that contract....