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foretaz
07-13-2005, 08:18 AM
though Bird doesnt say they have no interest in Kwame, he does say they would never trade Foster and Freddie for him....which seems to make sense....

of course...as i reread the article, we dont really no what question Birds response was actually to.....so who really knows....bit of poor reporting...should be clearly stated what question Bird was asked

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050713/SPORTS04/507130382/1004/SPORTS

No interest in Kwame

Pacers president Larry Bird denied a report the franchise was attempting to trade for Washington center Kwame Brown.

The most prevalent version had the Pacers offering Jeff Foster and Fred Jones, who was being mentioned in a trade rumor for the second time in the past two weeks, for Brown, the first pick in the 2001 draft.

"That would not happen," Bird said Tuesday. "There's no way we'll do that."

Bill Duffy, the agent for both Foster and Jones, said he was aware of the rumor but did not believe it had credibility.

"Based on my history with (Pacers CEO) Donnie Walsh, if something was imminent I would have talked to him by now," Duffy said.

Unclebuck
07-13-2005, 08:33 AM
[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=3]AID=/20050713/SPORTS04/507130382/1004/SPORTS[/url]

No interest in Kwame



""Based on my history with (Pacers CEO) Donnie Walsh, if something was imminent I would have talked to him by now," Duffy said.


I would not trade Foster and Fred for Kwame.

McClintic Sphere
07-13-2005, 08:33 AM
Are 2 milk-drinkers of this category worth one non-milk drinker?

Unclebuck
07-13-2005, 09:25 AM
The Washington Post is saying the Pacers are no longer interested in Brown

purdue101
07-13-2005, 09:28 AM
i still think bird is going to surprise us with a trade or signing that no one saw coming. that's usually the pattern with the pacers.

RSmits
07-13-2005, 09:33 AM
Donnie Walsh would stop smoking cigarettes before he would trade Freddy AND Foster for Kwame Brown.

purdue101
07-13-2005, 09:42 AM
no way do you trade foster and freddie for kwame. freddie, pollard and a pick, yes. but not foster and freddie. foster brings the intangibles and is a very good center, we saw that in the playoffs against detroit.

i heard LA won't guarantee kwame more than 2 years. i would gladly sign him for 4 starting at about 5-6 mi.

Shack80
07-13-2005, 10:07 AM
I hope to not see us trade Foster period, I htink he is a good fit for our team and a great role player. He might not put up a lot of points, but he is a monster rebounder and a nice match with JO. I really think we are ok at center. Frankly I am pretty happy with how we sit if we stay healthy and Artest does not blow up and get a lifetime ban.

Vicious Tyrant
07-13-2005, 10:30 AM
Are 2 milk-drinkers of this category worth one non-milk drinker?

Finally, someone with an insightful question...
;)

Doug in CO
07-13-2005, 10:58 AM
:laugh:
Donnie Walsh would stop smoking cigarettes before he would trade Freddy AND Foster for Kwame Brown.

diamonddave00
07-13-2005, 11:31 AM
So lets see Larry Bird says no way we trade Foster and F.Jones for Kwame Brown . Means nothing in my opinion. Simply means not exactly that trade.

Could be there are other things in the trade. I see no where in the article that the Pacers don't have intrest in Kwame , just that that particular trade won't happen.

I think the key is length of contract Brown wants could be Pacers only want a 2 year risk while Brown wants a longer deal.

Not saying a deal happens . But the fact Foster and F.Jones at almost 7 mil were mentioned as a package is intresting. Perhaps thats Larry's bait to bring in another big man . With new CBA saying trades must be within 25% of salary to match that makes it close to the 8.5 mil Jamal Magloire makes.

Just thinking outloud.

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 11:41 AM
I don't think I've missed reading too much, but this article was the first I've ever seen with Foster mentioned. Everything I read just listed FJ. So, are they using the media to list the limits or are we (the fans) so desperate that we are reading way too much into his comments?

McClintic Sphere
07-13-2005, 11:50 AM
Does it concern anyone that Fred Jones name keeps coming up in trade talks? It was reported that we offered him to teams in the draft in an effort to move up. I don't see us having anyone to replace Fred guarding quick backcourt types. Plus, his shooting really improved until his finger broke. Maybe it's all smoke, but I remember one of the coaches when asked about Fred's difficulties on offense, said specifically that he need to maintain his intensity on defense while his hand mended, implying that he wasn't bringing it. Does anyone think there are questions about Fred's work ethic/effort. He does seem rather laid back. Remember, Fred was Isiah's guy, but maybe Bird/Carlisle have become disenchanted?

Doug
07-13-2005, 12:00 PM
Fred gets mentioned because he has trade value. He's relatively young, fairly talented, and has a reasonable contract. He's also somebody that, IMO, we'd be willing to part with. Same with Foster, I suppose.

You (almost always) have to give something to get something.

And no, it doesn't concern me. I like Fred, but if we have to deal him to upgrade somewhere else, fine with me.

diamonddave00
07-13-2005, 12:24 PM
I think if you look at team strengths sf/sg is one thus Fred Jones who is up for a contract extention is the player you look to move. Reasons being:
1. if he preforms well he'll be very costly
2. if he gets limited minutes enter free agency ,will he look to move on
3. if he performs well but is blocked for playtime (very likely) will he become disenchanted and request a trade as Al Harringto did?

Adding Jeff Foster , who hadto help his trade value with games against the Pistons , with Fred Jones as a package becomes intriguing to other teams.

Foster (28) and F.Jones (26) are realatively young and with Foster's contract having 4 years at below MLE money ,very cheap in nba salary terms.

Bird and Walsh, probably feel Foster's value will never be greater and Fred's potential upside is attractive enough that a team would be willing to give up something pretty good for the package.

Croshere , and Bender are pretty much untradable at this point.

Pollard probably has more trade value at the deadline or as a filer in a major trade.

Larry and Donnie , I'm sure are leaving no stone unturned.

McClintic Sphere
07-13-2005, 12:35 PM
Fred gets mentioned because he has trade value. He's relatively young, fairly talented, and has a reasonable contract. He's also somebody that, IMO, we'd be willing to part with. Same with Foster, I suppose.

You (almost always) have to give something to get something.

And no, it doesn't concern me. I like Fred, but if we have to deal him to upgrade somewhere else, fine with me.

So you don't think we can read anything into this as someone the Pacer's WANT to move? I don't think they should mostly for defensive purposes, but also because it thins us at the 2, but when you hear Monteith and Wells admit he's been mentioned in trade talks it rings a little more true. It just seems Donnie ( but maybe not Bird) has always maintained the attitude that we won't move somebody until we know their "ceiling." I don't think we've seen that from Freddie yet.

Unclebuck
07-13-2005, 12:40 PM
Here is the full Washington Post article. This was the first mention of Foster, and this is where I got that the Pacers were no longer interested in Brown

Wizards Working to Trade Brown

By Ivan Carter and Michael Lee
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, July 13, 2005; Page E03

Still staggering from the loss of shooting guard Larry Hughes, the Washington Wizards are aggressively trying to find a new home for restricted free agent forward Kwame Brown and trying to fill their need for more front-line help.

A league source said yesterday that the Wizards have scheduled a meeting this weekend with free agent forward Donyell Marshall, who averaged 11.5 points and 6.6 rebounds for the Toronto Raptors last season. Marshall, 32, who is hosting a basketball camp in Reading, Pa., this week, has averaged 12.4 points and 7.3 rebounds in an 11-year career with Minnesota, Golden State, Utah, Chicago and Toronto. He has shot better than 40 percent from beyond the three-point line the past two seasons.


Could the Kwame Brown era be coming to an end in the form of a sign-and-trade? (John McDonnell - The Washington Post)
Wizards Offseason
_____ From The Post _____
The Wizards are actively looking to deal Kwame Brown while perusing the free-agent market for forwards.





____The Wizards have talked with several teams regarding a possible sign-and-trade involving former No. 1 pick Brown, a team source said. A source with knowledge of the discussions said the Lakers are considering offering swingman Caron Butler, and one of the following players: center Vlade Divac, point guard Chucky Atkins or swingman Devean George.

The 6-foot-7 Butler averaged 15.5 points and 5.8 rebounds last season and can play either shooting guard or small forward. He has been considered expendable since the Lakers acquired him as part of the blockbuster deal that sent Shaquille O'Neal to Miami last summer. Divac, Atkins or George would be thrown in for salary cap purposes. It's also possible the deal could include a 2006 first-round draft pick, which the Lakers acquired from Miami in the O'Neal trade. Divac, who is slated to earn $5.4 million next season, can be bought out of his contract for $2 million. That would save the Wizards $3.4 million on their salary cap, money that could be used to acquire other free agents.

Brown's agent, Arn Tellem, was scheduled to meet with Lakers General Manager Mitch Kupchak last night, according to a league source.

The Indiana Pacers, New York Knicks and Atlanta Hawks have also shown interest in Brown. According to league sources, the Pacers and the Wizards discussed a deal that would have sent shooting guard Freddie Jones and forward Jeff Foster to Washington. Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

The Knicks, who are in the market for a big man, have reportedly discussed a package including former Georgetown forward Mike Sweetney but Sweetney doesn't excite the Wizards, which led those talks to fizzle. The Hawks would consider signing Brown if they are unable to land one of the three big men they covet: Chicago's Eddy Curry, Chicago's Tyson Chandler or Philadelphia's Samuel Dalembert.

Brown, who was suspended by the Wizards during the playoffs after averaging 7.0 points and 4.9 rebounds during the regular season, is a restricted free agent, meaning the Wizards could match any offer made to him. The Wizards have already extended a qualifying offer to Brown worth about $6.9 million.

Teams aren't allowed to sign players or make trades until July 22, when the new collective bargaining agreement is expected to be ratified.

With Hughes agreeing to a five-year deal with the Cleveland Cavaliers last week, the Wizards have seven players under contract for next season. They would like to add a shooting guard and a low-post player through free agency or through a trade involving Brown.

The market for free agent shooting guards has dwindled with the recent signings of Hughes, Ray Allen, Michael Redd and Bobby Simmons. A source close to free agent guard Cuttino Mobley said yesterday that it is unlikely that he will join the Wizards. The Wizards had discussions with Mobley's representatives, but the source said Mobley is "very far down the line" in negotiations with other teams. Mobley, who averaged 17.2 points last season with Orlando and Sacramento, has been in talks with the Los Angeles Clippers and the Denver Nuggets. He opted out of a contract that would have paid him about $6.4 million next season.

The Wizards also met with restricted free agent guard Ronald "Flip" Murray in Las Vegas this week, according to a source with knowledge of the situation. Murray has been the primary backup for Allen in Seattle the past two seasons. Wizards President of Basketball Operations Ernie Grunfeld drafted Murray for the Milwaukee Bucks with the 42nd pick in 2002. He has averaged 9.6 points over his career.

According to a source close to unrestricted free agent shooting guard Juan Dixon, the team has expressed an interest in bringing back the former Maryland star, but nothing is imminent. The team has also been in discussions with the agent representing former Maryland guard Steve Blake, who is a restricted free agent.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/

Kegboy
07-13-2005, 12:42 PM
Didn't Conrad or :bunny: say recently that they doubted Freddie would get an extension this fall, and the Pacers would see what he got on the open market next summer?

That's not very inspiring.

Doug
07-13-2005, 12:43 PM
So you don't think we can read anything into this as someone the Pacer's WANT to move? I don't think they should mostly for defensive purposes, but also because it thins us at the 2, but when you hear Monteith and Wells admit he's been mentioned in trade talks it rings a little more true. It just seems Donnie ( but maybe not Bird) has always maintained the attitude that we won't move somebody until we know their "ceiling." I don't think we've seen that from Freddie yet.

Let me put it this way. IF the Pacers are looking to make a trade to improve, I believe that Fred would be one of the players they would strongly consider moving.

Does that mean they WANT to move him? If it helps the team, sure. Are they trying to get dump him? No. Are they actively seeking deals using Fred (and/or) Foster? It would not surprise me one bit.

foretaz
07-13-2005, 12:50 PM
the team has an overabundance of talent....specifically we have more quality players than there are minutes...

if the pacers are able to add saras...and thats a huge if...u can almost be assured he will see some backup minutes at the 2....probably a 3 guard rotation of jt, jack and saras will get a majority of the minutes...if not saras, then its still reasonable to assume if they try to upgrade the backup point slot that that player might see some backup 2 minutes, ie antonio daniels....

the pacers could really stand to do a trade where they trade 2 good players for an upgrade in a slot....now...not saying kwame would be an upgrade, he definitely hasnt been anything to write about heretofore....but hes young, was drafted number 1 overall and definitely has alot of talent...the pacers are in a position that they can make such a gamble....and getting a player of his talent isnt easy to do, but the fact that hes struggled might make it possible....

this situation might not be the worst situation for kwame....if he were to come here, there would probably not be many expectations.....he wouldnt have to produce....being around dale, jo, and jeff would probably be a good thing for him....help him develop....and if he would turn into something down the road, we would look back and say what a great trade it was...

would it be a gamble? absolutely.....but one the pacers probably can afford to make....if he doest pan out, well at least they have fewer problems with minutes and keeping guys happy this year....freddie is in his final year, i believe, so hes probably wanting to get some time, and not unlike the beginning of this past season, it might be tough for him and some others to get many meaningful minutes....am i concerned about the defense if fred leaves? very much so...as someone mentioned he is our only real defensive answer for quicker smaller guards....but at the same time, he cant stop people from the bench....

kwame would be a huge gamble....but it might be worth the risk....hes very young and quite immature it appears....how fast he matures remains to be seen.....but with lots of front court talent he wouldnt have any pressure to perform and therefore could possibly be more successful....

Diesel
07-13-2005, 12:51 PM
A couple of things, I think sooner or later Fred Jones will be shipped out, Hes a fine player but if Steven Jackson is starting, addition of Granger and the pacers trying to resign James Jones there just isn't enough room for him to play the amount of minutes that he deserves.

I would have taken a gamble on Kwame if it was just Freddie because of his upside and the fact we could use another low post scorer with the second unit or if Jermaine goes out for a period of time, however there is no way in hell Im giving up both Foster and Freddie. Thats just way to much to give up for a guy who has a questionable work ethic, I just don't know if this kid wants to be a great player. I would think if were offering Foster and Jones we could get a better deal with somebody a little more proven. The farthest I would go for Kwame would be Bender+Jones and if they don't want to do that then lets go in a different direction.

Old as Dirt
07-13-2005, 01:18 PM
Thats right trade the best bebounder last year, if he had had 70 games, and until DD was brought in. You do not trade one of best rebounders in the NBA not way.

SoupIsGood
07-13-2005, 01:34 PM
I don't want to trade for Kwame at all, he can stay in Washington.

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 01:36 PM
Thanks for posting that UB. SOmething I noticed (Sam Spade here), re-read this paragraph:

The Indiana Pacers, New York Knicks and Atlanta Hawks have also shown interest in Brown. According to league sources, the Pacers and the Wizards discussed a deal that would have sent shooting guard Freddie Jones and forward Jeff Foster to Washington. Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

Now, re-read the last sentence...maybe last two.

Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

Why? What changed? We discussed the deal, it doesn't hint that it was to expensive IOO.....to the contrary it says: INDIANA ....IS NO LONGER INTERESTED IN BROWN.

Why? What changed? It makes me wonder if there might be something else in the fire, a better deal elsewhere that they know they can and want to do.
(Then again maybe I'm seeing those men in black suits all over the place)

foretaz
07-13-2005, 01:49 PM
Thanks for posting that UB. SOmething I noticed (Sam Spade here), re-read this paragraph:

The Indiana Pacers, New York Knicks and Atlanta Hawks have also shown interest in Brown. According to league sources, the Pacers and the Wizards discussed a deal that would have sent shooting guard Freddie Jones and forward Jeff Foster to Washington. Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

Now, re-read the last sentence...maybe last two.

Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

Why? What changed? We discussed the deal, it doesn't hint that it was to expensive IOO.....to the contrary it says: INDIANA ....IS NO LONGER INTERESTED IN BROWN.

Why? What changed? It makes me wonder if there might be something else in the fire, a better deal elsewhere that they know they can and want to do.
(Then again maybe I'm seeing those men in black suits all over the place)

i think what it means is.....they toyed with changing the jerseys to brown and gold...but decided to stick with the tried and true blue and gold :D :D

RWB
07-13-2005, 01:56 PM
A league source said yesterday that the Wizards have scheduled a meeting this weekend with free agent forward Donyell Marshall, who averaged 11.5 points and 6.6 rebounds for the Toronto Raptors last season. Marshall, 32,
The Indiana Pacers, New York Knicks and Atlanta Hawks have also shown interest in Brown. According to league sources, the Pacers and the Wizards discussed a deal that would have sent shooting guard Freddie Jones and forward Jeff Foster to Washington. Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/

That's the key word here gentlemen. I believe even though Freddie improved his shot it is still considered flat (not my words) by someone who knows. Fred is seen as someone who can play, but can't quite shake that tweener label.

Arcadian
07-13-2005, 02:00 PM
I would gamble one role player (especially a guard) on a contending team for Kwambe not two. At that point you start to risk changing the team's toughness and chemistry for a weak minded player with potential.

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 02:04 PM
That's the key word here gentlemen. I believe even though Freddie improved his shot it is still considered flat (not my words) by someone who knows. Fred is seen as someone who can play, but can't quite shake that tweener label.


You been talkin' to Billy again????

RWB
07-13-2005, 02:13 PM
You been talkin' to Billy again????

Not sure I follow this. Madison, Clinton, or Gates? :laugh:

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 02:17 PM
Not sure I follow this. Madison, Clinton, or Gates? :laugh:


Bill Madison???????????? How the heck old are you??????????

RWB
07-13-2005, 02:20 PM
Now Geez, Madison was in reference to the Adam Sandler movie. Now you on the other hand knew Dolly didn't you? :devil:

Will Galen
07-13-2005, 02:22 PM
Why? What changed? We discussed the deal, it doesn't hint that it was to expensive IOO.....to the contrary it says: INDIANA ....IS NO LONGER INTERESTED IN BROWN.

Why? What changed? It makes me wonder if there might be something else in the fire, a better deal elsewhere that they know they can and want to do.
(Then again maybe I'm seeing those men in black suits all over the place)

What changed? It could be as simple as we know other teams are offering more than we want to give.

The comprehension of some writers leads me to the conclusion that they could actually report something not true too.

As for trading Foster, he wasn't mentioned by Bird as being one of the core. That being JO, Ron, Jax, and Tins. However, what do we have at center? An aging DD, an unproven Harrison, and Pollard who has back problems. I see no way Bird trades are most viable center unless we get one back. Thus I could see Foster going for Mags, but not Brown.

dagrubbs
07-13-2005, 02:34 PM
[B]WE ALSO SAID THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO TRADE JALEN ROSE JUST A DAY OR TWO BEFORE WE TRADED HIM......AS FOR KWAME I THINK THE WIZARDS ARE GIVING UP TO SOON WITH THE HELP OF THE COACHES AND JO I THINK KWAME WOULD THRIVE HERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD GIVE UP TWO PROVEN PLAYERS FOR ONE POTENTIAL STAR.......I WOULDN'T DO THE TRADE RUMORED...MAYBE IF WASHINGTON THREW IN A CONDITIONAL FIRST ROUNDER TO GO WITH IT

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 02:37 PM
Now Geez, Madison was in reference to the Adam Sandler movie. Now you on the other hand knew Dolly didn't you? :devil:

ya know Red,White, and Blue.....sometimes yer as bigga prick as Will Galen.

aceace
07-13-2005, 03:01 PM
You guys are all a bunch of conspiracy theorists. Maybe we're going to trade Freddie for the rights to Manute Bol and Gheorge Murasan(sp) instead of Kwame

RWB
07-13-2005, 03:11 PM
You guys are all a bunch of conspiracy theorists.

The brain's missing, there were 4 shots heard on police radios, and there is no way a single bullet did that much damage FTC.

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 03:31 PM
The brain's missing, there were 4 shots heard on police radios, and there is no way a single bullet did that much damage FTC.




FTC???? Federal Trade Commission? What do they investigate, other than Martha Stewart?

RWB
07-13-2005, 03:57 PM
FTC???? Federal Trade Commission? What do they investigate, other than Martha Stewart?

Got me wondering now Geez. I thought aceace was FireTheCoach in another life time? Guess it's a good thing I've got a Drs.' appointment in an hour. Now besides checking for high blood pressure and sugar he can check to see if I have any brain waves.

indygeezer
07-13-2005, 04:01 PM
Got me wondering now Geez. I thought aceace was FireTheCoach in another life time? Guess it's a good thing I've got a Drs.' appointment in an hour. Now besides checking for high blood pressure and sugar he can check to see if I have any brain waves.


Ya know....you may just be right about FTC. Sorry, I thought that that was a quote from the FTC. I'm the brain-dead one.

Gyron
07-13-2005, 04:04 PM
Quick Peck, Get the shock paddles out for geezer, the brain waves have started to fade!

MagicRat
07-13-2005, 04:08 PM
I think FTC is still FTC....:whoknows:

Gyron
07-13-2005, 04:09 PM
Fire the coach is listed on the members list still. Posted on July 4th 2005 last....

beast23
07-13-2005, 06:29 PM
Just a guess on my part, but I don't think the Pacers are interested because it takes Foster to get the trade done, rather than one of Croshere or maybe Bender.

The Pacers would not want to part with Foster. They would do so only if a very special trade presented itself. And a trade for potential certainly doesn't qualify.

What this trade would leave the Pacers with would be 2 years of Bender and Croshere left ($16M next year, $18.5M in 2006-2007) plus the contract of Kwame Brown at about $5M or so per year.

That's $23.5M next season on large contracts of either players with potential or players that will not see many minutes. I think that is already a ridiculous amount at $16M, let alone $23.5M.

Now, if it is possible to exchange one of the our two bad contracts in some kind of trade for Brown, then go for it. That way, we have nothing to lose. And, if it's Croshere we're talking about, at least the Wizards would be getting a player that does just fine, as long as he starts. That would seem to be a win-win situation for the trade, if you ask me.

But you pick up Brown, and find out that MJ was right about him, and we don't include either of the two bad contracts, then we've potentially made our current mess even bigger since we would be eating $23M+ the next two seasons.

Tim
07-13-2005, 07:08 PM
Thanks for posting that UB. SOmething I noticed (Sam Spade here), re-read this paragraph:

The Indiana Pacers, New York Knicks and Atlanta Hawks have also shown interest in Brown. According to league sources, the Pacers and the Wizards discussed a deal that would have sent shooting guard Freddie Jones and forward Jeff Foster to Washington. Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

Now, re-read the last sentence...maybe last two.

Indiana, however, is no longer interested in Brown.

Why? What changed? We discussed the deal, it doesn't hint that it was to expensive IOO.....to the contrary it says: INDIANA ....IS NO LONGER INTERESTED IN BROWN.

Why? What changed? It makes me wonder if there might be something else in the fire, a better deal elsewhere that they know they can and want to do.
(Then again maybe I'm seeing those men in black suits all over the place)


What happened is Indiana backed out, deciding they are not getting into a bidding war for a kid they still have to develop.

I still think Kwame will end up in NY, he may take a significant paycut to do it.
If Kwame and Isiah can get together and talk, they will see they need each other.

skyfire
07-13-2005, 08:40 PM
If Kwame and Isiah can get together and talk, they will see they need each other.

To further destroy each other's careers?