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FiestyFosterFanatic
07-12-2005, 03:07 PM
Now!

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 03:09 PM
Please keep us informed.

FiestyFosterFanatic
07-12-2005, 03:11 PM
Reggie is saying that he knows for a fact that Ron went to therapy, and it was a requirement to go through therapy to get back in the league, he said that to Kravitz to keep his "street cred". Said its not time to trade Ron, because he is one of the top 20 players in the league, and they've dealt with all this, why deal him now.

scar
07-12-2005, 03:12 PM
Has he said he's going to come back and that he's going to get David Stern in the balls?

Fool
07-12-2005, 03:14 PM
1) Do they have Reggie on contract or something? He's on like weekly.

2)Grace must be sick or something today. Hope you feel better Grace.

FiestyFosterFanatic
07-12-2005, 03:15 PM
Saying he would resign Shaq for 5 years, that he hasn't been healthy since 2000. Says Dwayne is the man because Shaq created the space to make him the man.

Talked a bit about Larry Brown, nothing too informative.

FiestyFosterFanatic
07-12-2005, 03:16 PM
Reggie and Dan are talking about who is more ghetto, himself or Dan. Dan says Reggie is Hollywood, and Dan is street because he is in Detroit, hanging with Eminem. Reggie says American League 8, National League 5.

FiestyFosterFanatic
07-12-2005, 03:17 PM
That's it.

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 03:19 PM
The last thing Ron Artest should be worried about is his street cred.

Thanks TruWarier for the update. :)

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 03:27 PM
I don't understand. If he knows that Artest doesn't want people to know he has had therapy, why would he say this? :banghead: Reggie...

Jermaniac
07-12-2005, 03:38 PM
I don't understand. If he knows that Artest doesn't want people to know he has had therapy, why would he say this? :banghead: Reggie...Same **** I said. ****ed Up Reggie. Now the media will get a hold of this and Ron will be asked about it all the damn time.

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 03:45 PM
Same **** I said. ****ed Up Reggie. Now the media will get a hold of this and Ron will be asked about it all the damn time.

Ron will then be presented with a choice. He would either have to say that Reggie lied, which might not go over well, or admit to it.

"Next question, please" might be the best choice in that situation actually.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 03:51 PM
i think that would be one of those questions that u always misdirect and throw a bunch of humor at....

on a sidenote....probably did decrease the odds of reggie coming back, if there were any....have a feeling pacers brass wont appreciate it too much...some things should be kept in house....file this in the column with crosheres nytimes comments...

as ive said before....anyone that believes that ron hasnt gone to therapy....that david stern, donnie walsh and larry bird would allow him back without that being a prerequisite.....well....thats simply crazy

but its a very private matter....and a player should have that as a privilege.....

i also have a feeling that was a bit of a zinger for artest and david stern-from reggie....neither one of them can be too happy with that comment...and that was like reggie just getting a little jab in there to say, 'hey, remember me and what happened?'

Los Angeles
07-12-2005, 04:04 PM
Foretaz - if Reggie made the call, the top brass would dynamite walls to make space for him in the locker room - even if players were standing in the way. (They might want the car back, though.)

The fact that Ron is afraid of what people might think if they knew he went to therapy is just one more reason to suspect that he still hasn't "gotten it".

foretaz
07-12-2005, 04:19 PM
Foretaz - if Reggie made the call, the top brass would dynamite walls to make space for him in the locker room - even if players were standing in the way. (They might want the car back, though.)

The fact that Ron is afraid of what people might think if they knew he went to therapy is just one more reason to suspect that he still hasn't "gotten it".

ummm....the misguided stereotypes that many in society put on those that go to therapy is real...

from a marketing standpoint, having this out there does noone any good....

but most importantly, its a very private manner....its noones business....

no matter what sort of public figure you are, it should be off limits.....its very private and very personal.....i love reggie, but thats a major no no.....reggies a class guy, and im sure he meant no harm....i didnt hear the interview, but ive listened to many of the patrick show interviews....hes just talking and saying whatever in a very relaxed manner....but he shouldnt have said it....

and reggie being the class guy, i hope he calls ron and apologizes....because it was wrong...

and just for the record....reggie said that might be the reason why ron would deny it....ron hasnt said anything about it.....so to say that ron hasnt gotten it.....is a bit of a stretch, not to mention inaccurate....

Arcadian
07-12-2005, 04:25 PM
Going to therapy isn't a big deal. I would be more embarassed about charging into the stands.

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 04:28 PM
The fact that Ron is afraid of what people might think if they knew he went to therapy is just one more reason to suspect that he still hasn't "gotten it".

I disagree. I think that is part of his personal life, and I think others should respect his decision to keep that private.

I also think that it is pretty natural to be ashamed of needing counseling, I don't think it makes him any different than everybody else in that aspect.

Los Angeles
07-12-2005, 04:39 PM
ummm....the misguided stereotypes that many in society put on those that go to therapy is real...

from a marketing standpoint, having this out there does noone any good....

but most importantly, its a very private manner....its noones business....

no matter what sort of public figure you are, it should be off limits.....its very private and very personal.....i love reggie, but thats a major no no.....reggies a class guy, and im sure he meant no harm....i didnt hear the interview, but ive listened to many of the patrick show interviews....hes just talking and saying whatever in a very relaxed manner....but he shouldnt have said it....

and reggie being the class guy, i hope he calls ron and apologizes....because it was wrong...

and just for the record....reggie said that might be the reason why ron would deny it....ron hasnt said anything about it.....so to say that ron hasnt gotten it.....is a bit of a stretch, not to mention inaccurate....
I'll give you all that and I stand corrected.

indygeezer
07-12-2005, 04:40 PM
I disagree. I think that is part of his personal life, and I think others should respect his decision to keep that private.

I also think that it is pretty natural to be ashamed of needing counseling, I don't think it makes him any different than everybody else in that aspect.


It was private info (The P's mgmnt and his Dr's legally couldn't answer the question...HIPA(sp) laws). Reggie outing him was wrong. Ron telling an obvious lie was ill-advised. A simple "Next question" is all that is needed.

It was tabloid journalism.

8.9_seconds
07-12-2005, 08:05 PM
I actually think that Ron's rehabilitation or changing, if you will, will be taken more serious now that Reggie has said this,I think he said it to defend Ron, not to start something.

Shade
07-12-2005, 08:09 PM
Not to turn this into another pro-Artest vs. Anti-Artest thread, but the one man who should "hate" Ron more than anyone (Reggie, who many people said lost a shot at the ring because of the brawl) is STILL in Ron's corner. Kinda tells 'ya something, don't it? ;)

skyfire
07-12-2005, 09:39 PM
As someone has speculated previously, I think the reason that Ron is stating that he didn't go into therapy is to avoid any of the legal issues that might be associated with this. He is sticking with the 'personal improvement' line, which could be taken to mean a lot of different things including therapy, but wont exacerbate any of the legal proceedings, criminal or civil, that are still taking place.

Gamble
07-12-2005, 10:17 PM
As someone has speculated previously, I think the reason that Ron is stating that he didn't go into therapy is to avoid any of the legal issues that might be associated with this. He is sticking with the 'personal improvement' line, which could be taken to mean a lot of different things including therapy, but wont exacerbate any of the legal proceedings, criminal or civil, that are still taking place.
He's not Kenny Rodgers where there is something to lose. The legality of
it shouldn't matter in the context of therapy and saying you had it.
I am sure he wants to keep it private for image reasons. Saying your from the
ghetto and then saying i am going to therapy doesn't mix well. HOw many
hard nose ghetto folk you know got them some nice therapy. I mean
come on...Thats not going to sell records.

grace
07-13-2005, 11:14 AM
1) Do they have Reggie on contract or something? He's on like weekly.

2)Grace must be sick or something today. Hope you feel better Grace.

I'll only listen to The Dan Patrick Show if Dan isn't there. Yes, I'd like to listen to Reggie, but as I've said before every time Reggie is on there he gets stupider by the minute.

Bball
07-14-2005, 02:19 AM
ummm....the misguided stereotypes that many in society put on those that go to therapy is real...

from a marketing standpoint, having this out there does noone any good....

but most importantly, its a very private manner....its noones business....



Ummmm from my point of view ADMITTING he's been to therapy would be a GOOD marketing move. As LA was getting at, it helps to show he knows he was in the wrong.

But I just had to highlight this:
.the misguided stereotypes that many in society put on those that go to therapy is real...

The man charged into the stands, has been looked at as something between a loose cannon and medically 'not quite right in the head' almost his whole NBA career, a technical foul magent, won a TKO over a Hidef camera, has been suspended numerous times including a season long suspension.... And you think Artest would have a marketing problem (and/or a problem with stereotyping) if he admitted to taking therapy? :eek:

And I dispute the 'fact' that people in therapy are all that looked down upon anyway.

The first step is admitting you have a problem and I personally would respect Artest MORE if he fessed up to the therapy sessions. Pretending he never had them simply worries me in that he hasn't fully taken responsibility for his actions.... IOW, he hasn't 'gotten it'.

And that said, I doubt therapy is a magic bullet or the be all-end all 'fix' to his problem (per se')... but it would show he is trying...

Not admitting to it makes me question whether it truly has gotten thru to him.

-Bball

foretaz
07-14-2005, 07:52 AM
Ummmm from my point of view ADMITTING he's been to therapy would be a GOOD marketing move. As LA was getting at, it helps to show he knows he was in the wrong.

But I just had to highlight this:
.the misguided stereotypes that many in society put on those that go to therapy is real...

The man charged into the stands, has been looked at as something between a loose cannon and medically 'not quite right in the head' almost his whole NBA career, a technical foul magent, won a TKO over a Hidef camera, has been suspended numerous times including a season long suspension.... And you think Artest would have a marketing problem (and/or a problem with stereotyping) if he admitted to taking therapy? :eek:

And I dispute the 'fact' that people in therapy are all that looked down upon anyway.

The first step is admitting you have a problem and I personally would respect Artest MORE if he fessed up to the therapy sessions. Pretending he never had them simply worries me in that he hasn't fully taken responsibility for his actions.... IOW, he hasn't 'gotten it'.

And that said, I doubt therapy is a magic bullet or the be all-end all 'fix' to his problem (per se')... but it would show he is trying...

Not admitting to it makes me question whether it truly has gotten thru to him.

-Bball

this post makes it quite apparent who doesnt get it....

satisfying u that he gets it isnt part of the program....noone cares whether u think he gets it....ur a fan who, by his comments makes it quite apparent that you will always be prejudiced against him....so for those people noone really cares enuff to do things just to pacify you...

the only way things will ever change in the way that he is perceived is by behavior that shows that things have changed....not unlike the season 2 years ago...

announcing hes gone to therapy wont change that....as u said, even then u dont think that will really help, so why in the hell should he admit something that is very, very private, that by your own admission, wont make a difference??????

and if u think the nba wants to add to the stigma of ron artest by having the cloud of him seeing a shrink, then ur badly mistaken....

they want to use what has happened as a drawing card....but they dont want to add to the circus by throwing the shrink card into the mix....the last thing they want is a debate regarding whether someone with his history that is now in therapy should be allowed on the court...that opens up a whole new can of worms, one they dont want any part of....

im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing....while the issue is incredibly private and is noones business, especially someone like u....the marketing issues affect the nba as a whole....and if u dont see the validity of keeping that out of the headlines then im sorry, but as i alluded to earlier, its not ron that doesnt get it...

Bball
07-14-2005, 01:47 PM
this post makes it quite apparent who doesnt get it....

Have you ever been wrong or even considered you might be wrong?




satisfying u that he gets it isnt part of the program....noone cares whether u think he gets it....ur a fan who, by his comments makes it quite apparent that you will always be prejudiced against him....

You see what you want to see...

Anyway, satisfying me alone 'isn't part of the program' but satisfying the fanbase and casual observers that 'he gets it' IS part of the issue. There's enough of a debate here to tell me he has a ways to go yet.







the only way things will ever change in the way that he is perceived is by behavior that shows that things have changed....not unlike the season 2 years ago...


BINGO! ....And a start would be admitting he's had therapy and is trying to get something from it... not hiding from it and telling us how 'hood' he is.

I think it is mostly your own prejudice coming to light regarding therapy. I don't think the average American is going to have the reaction to it you are.




announcing hes gone to therapy wont change that....as u said, even then u dont think that will really help, so why in the hell should he admit something that is very, very private, that by your own admission, wont make a difference??????


I didn't say it wouldn't make a difference... What I was getting at was it is an ATTEMPT at making a difference. It might work... it might not. It depends how comitted Artest is at changing. It depends on how serious he is about.

As for it making a difference, there are never any guarantees.

We're not talking about him being locked away in an asylum somewhere undergoing shock therapy. There's no good reason that someone in his position should want to run from the fact he's spent some time on a couch talking thru his issues.




and if u think the nba wants to add to the stigma of ron artest by having the cloud of him seeing a shrink, then ur badly mistaken....


What is with this 'stigma' stuff you keep attaching to therapy? Again, we're not talking a frontal labotomy here. We're not talking padded cells and straight jackets.

I personally believe the NBA would love for Artest to publically admit to therapy to show the world he is trying to change and doing about anything possible.

It seems the two people who really have a problem with therapy are you and Ron Artest.




they want to use what has happened as a drawing card....but they dont want to add to the circus by throwing the shrink card into the mix....the last thing they want is a debate regarding whether someone with his history that is now in therapy should be allowed on the court...that opens up a whole new can of worms, one they dont want any part of....

im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing....while the issue is incredibly private and is noones business, especially someone like u....the marketing issues affect the nba as a whole....and if u dont see the validity of keeping that out of the headlines then im sorry, but as i alluded to earlier, its not ron that doesnt get it...


I agree the DETAILS are private. I don't agree that admitting to trying therapy is any kind of problem at all. It helps with perception, not hurts IMHO.

You talk about 'real facts' yet you've only talked about opinions and speculation. You can disagree with my opinions and speculation all you want but don't delude yourself into thinking you somehow have the only real 'answer' and 'facts'.

It sounds to me like you'd be well served to read some of your own words and consider how they relate to you:
im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing

-Bball

foretaz
07-14-2005, 02:07 PM
Have you ever been wrong or even considered you might be wrong?



You see what you want to see...

Anyway, satisfying me alone 'isn't part of the program' but satisfying the fanbase and casual observers that 'he gets it' IS part of the issue. There's enough of a debate here to tell me he has a ways to go yet.






BINGO! ....And a start would be admitting he's had therapy and is trying to get something from it... not hiding from it and telling us how 'hood' he is.

I think it is mostly your own prejudice coming to light regarding therapy. I don't think the average American is going to have the reaction to it you are.




I didn't say it wouldn't make a difference... What I was getting at was it is an ATTEMPT at making a difference. It might work... it might not. It depends how comitted Artest is at changing. It depends on how serious he is about.

As for it making a difference, there are never any guarantees.

We're not talking about him being locked away in an asylum somewhere undergoing shock therapy. There's no good reason that someone in his position should want to run from the fact he's spent some time on a couch talking thru his issues.




What is with this 'stigma' stuff you keep attaching to therapy? Again, we're not talking a frontal labotomy here. We're not talking padded cells and straight jackets.

I personally believe the NBA would love for Artest to publically admit to therapy to show the world he is trying to change and doing about anything possible.

It seems the two people who really have a problem with therapy are you and Ron Artest.




I agree the DETAILS are private. I don't agree that admitting to trying therapy is any kind of problem at all. It helps with perception, not hurts IMHO.

You talk about 'real facts' yet you've only talked about opinions and speculation. You can disagree with my opinions and speculation all you want but don't delude yourself into thinking you somehow have the only real 'answer' and 'facts'.

It sounds to me like you'd be well served to read some of your own words and consider how they relate to you:
im sorry if ur personal feelings make it impossible to see the real facts and how they relate to this whole thing

-Bball

as i said...its apparent who doesnt get it....

if u somehow derived that i have some sort of problem or prejudice against therapy, well...lets just say ur ignorance seems to be growing....

ive clearly stated on here numerous times, that not only do i believe ron is getting treatment but it is much needed.....

its just that its none of ur business....nor mine...

and uve clearly made ur prejudices known by ur comments where the subject of ron is concerned....not to mention the latest one u just made regarding the hood....

there is a small minorty of the fanbase that will always have a problem with ron, no matter what he does....and people like u that feel they are owed some sort of detailed explanation regarding whats going on in his personal life- only to prove that he gets it- to u....well my guess is ron, pacers management and anyone else in the know and important would have the same type of feelings-that u can go take a flying leap....

if u dont think he gets it....fine....noone cares about that but u....most importantly neither ron or the management do....

managements responsibility is to put forth a product on the floor that is worth ur entertainment dollar....any personal issues of players that spill over to the floor will need to be rectified to their satisfaction....not yours...

as far as the fanbase needing to know that ron gets it....nothing could be further from the truth....what the fanbase needs to know is that ron will do everything in his power to help his team compete....and that will be shown on the floor during play....and few compete harder than ron does....the fanbase doesnt need to know what ron gets and what he doesnt get, nor do they need to know what hes doing in his personal life to better prepare him for lifes trials and tribulations....or what hes doing to deal with very personal and dramatic events that have taken place in his life....

what the fanbase needs is to mind their own business and concern themselves with the product on the floor and not the personal lives of the players....if ur angry that the product was disrupted, thats understandable...but it, in no way, gives u any right to pry into the personal lives of the players....

bottom line is apologies have been offered....but there will always be those that are too bitter to accept them....and those people would do well to follow in rons footsteps and seek help....because life is too short....

Arcadian
07-14-2005, 02:35 PM
I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

Bball
07-14-2005, 02:40 PM
as i said...its apparent who doesnt get it....

if u somehow derived that i have some sort of problem or prejudice against therapy, well...lets just say ur ignorance seems to be growing....

ive clearly stated on here numerous times, that not only do i believe ron is getting treatment but it is much needed.....

its just that its none of ur business....nor mine...


First, I'm not into name calling just because I happen to disagree with you.

Secondly, I either wish Artest had admitted to the therapy head on or sidestepped it as out of bounds if he didn't want to talk about it. The denial worries me for the reasons previously stated.





and uve clearly made ur prejudices known by ur comments where the subject of ron is concerned....not to mention the latest one u just made regarding the hood....


What prejudices are you talking about?




there is a small minorty of the fanbase that will always have a problem with ron, no matter what he does....and people like u that feel they are owed some sort of detailed explanation regarding whats going on in his personal life- only to prove that he gets it- to u....well my guess is ron, pacers management and anyone else in the know and important would have the same type of feelings-that u can go take a flying leap....

if u dont think he gets it....fine....noone cares about that but u....most importantly neither ron or the management do....

managements responsibility is to put forth a product on the floor that is worth ur entertainment dollar....any personal issues of players that spill over to the floor will need to be rectified to their satisfaction....not yours...

as far as the fanbase needing to know that ron gets it....nothing could be further from the truth....what the fanbase needs to know is that ron will do everything in his power to help his team compete....and that will be shown on the floor during play....and few compete harder than ron does....the fanbase doesnt need to know what ron gets and what he doesnt get, nor do they need to know what hes doing in his personal life to better prepare him for lifes trials and tribulations....or what hes doing to deal with very personal and dramatic events that have taken place in his life....

what the fanbase needs is to mind their own business and concern themselves with the product on the floor and not the personal lives of the players....if ur angry that the product was disrupted, thats understandable...but it, in no way, gives u any right to pry into the personal lives of the players....

bottom line is apologies have been offered....but there will always be those that are too bitter to accept them....and those people would do well to follow in rons footsteps and seek help....because life is too short...

I'd like to agree with you.... but then we'd both be wrong.

-Bball

Since86
07-14-2005, 02:40 PM
I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.


Books and movies reveal a lot of societies attitude, whether it paints it for them, or just reveals them is for a different discussion though.

Go out and watch a movie that has a character who goes to therapy in it. Then come back and tell me if therapy is viewed as a positive or a negative.

Just because Ron is a professional basketball player, doesn't mean he should have to air every piece of dirty laundry he has, to benefit fan's minds. It's not any of your business to know if he sees a therapist, nor is it any of mine to know if you do. There's quite a lot of people that do just fine getting over things by themselves after a rude wake up call, then there's others that need help. Why don't we wait to pass judgement on a new script, instead of rushing to uninformed conclusions.

Bball
07-14-2005, 02:41 PM
I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

Thank you! I wish I could've made this point so succinctly.

-Bball

foretaz
07-14-2005, 02:46 PM
I think that it is a sad statment on society if Ron somehow feels there is any reason not to say I am going to therapy. Were I to lose millions of dollars because of my temper I would be the first to admit that my behavior or my job needs to change.

ur missing the point....totally....i wont even go into the fact of whether he lost millions due to his temper...thats been rehashed....the point is u might be the first to admit it...but in no way should u feel compelled to share that decision with the world...ur boss? yes...ur closest of close relatives? yes....the whole friggen world? no...no way...and u know it...


Furthermore as a man who makes millions of dollars because he is a public figure I would wish he had the courage to say that he is getting profesional help as a way to make therapy more acceptable for those he feels he has to hid it from.

its not about courage....sharing ur most intimate secrets of ur personal life doesnt make u courageous....

im sure there are lots of people that would like stars to come out and admit they have the same problems that alot of society does....

but just because they make millions and are in the public spotlight, doesnt mean they have to open up their personal life for the world to see...

he gets paid millions to play basketball....not to be a public advocate and example for the pros and cons of therapy....one could argue that him coming out and admitting it could do as much harm as it could good....the naysayers would say, "if thats what therapy does, i want no part of it"....its a no win situation...and why private lives should be kept private, like it or not....

MagicRat
07-14-2005, 02:49 PM
I wonder what Tom Cruise thinks of all of this......

Will Galen
07-14-2005, 03:01 PM
What I don't understand is why Ron would deny he was undergoing therapy. When something is mandated so you can go back to work you just do it. It doesn't mean you are crazy, just that it was a requirment to go back to work.

I'm thinking what's at the bottom of this is Ron has been called crazy and he thinks that admitting therapy means admitting he was crazy. Probably something as simple as that.

Arcadian
07-14-2005, 03:01 PM
Off the top of my head I can name Good Will Hunting and 28 Days as movies which portray therapy as a positive. If you are talking about movies made in the 70's like One Flew over the Coo Coo's Nest and Clockwork Orange (which both were based one books written further back) then, yes, there is a negative view. But that reflects the 70's not 2005. Recent movies are more positive about therapy.

As far as Ron should or shouldn't have to say? For the most part I agree with you that he doesn't have to. I do wish that as man who makes millions for being in the public eye that he would use his influence to de-stygmatize a profession that is helpful to 10's of millions non-scientologist.

As far as what Ron did was he lied further stygmatizing that very same profession.

Since86
07-14-2005, 03:04 PM
As long as I'm Ron's ad-hoc employer, I have a keen interest in the Pacer's major employees.

The Pacers are, by virture of their dependence on the city of Indianapolis and the citizenry of Indiana, a publicly traded company (in a way more or less unique to professional sports franchises). As such, and as a financial contributor to said company, I should be privy to the kind of information that determines whether or not my investment is worth my time and resources. In this instance, it's unfortunate that Ron's decision to accept or reject professional help has to become a public issue. Regardless, it still has to be an issue the investing public should know about.

Another blow-up and he can ruin an entire season, throw a multi-million dollar business into chaos and turmoil, and once again ruin the emotional and financial investments of literally millions of people.


So you need to know whether or not Bill Gates sees a shrink before you buy Windows stock?

For some reason I have a tingle that leads me to believe that even if another brawl happened, it would just involve :Artest: and not more than him.

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:06 PM
As long as I'm Ron's ad-hoc employer, I have a keen interest in the Pacer's major employees.

The Pacers are, by virture of their dependence on the city of Indianapolis and the citizenry of Indiana, a publicly traded company (in a way more or less unique to professional sports franchises). As such, and as a financial contributor to said company, I should be privy to the kind of information that determines whether or not my investment is worth my time and resources. In this instance, it's unfortunate that Ron's decision to accept or reject professional help has to become a public issue. Regardless, it still has to be an issue the investing public should know about.

Another blow-up and he can ruin an entire season, throw a multi-million dollar business into chaos and turmoil, and once again ruin the emotional and financial investments of literally millions of people.

ummm...u might like to know....but ur dreaming if u think u have any right to know....its very simple....as with any other company, no matter how much of a stretch ur analogy is.....you have no right to know the goings on in the private lives of others within the company....and if u cant handle that, or if ur investment is conditioned on that circumstance....then u wont be investing in that company....quite simple....

in ur example the players are the executives....with bird and walsh and the simons being the board of directors....the board will know the details....but thats it....no way in hell they make that sort of private info made public....not to mention it being a right to privacy issue...

as ive said repeatedly....outside of a very select few....its nobodys business...some of u might not like that....but thats life...you can always choose to invest in the colts and their admitted gun toters ;) ;)

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:09 PM
On a human level, I can understand why Ron didn't want to admit he had been getting professional help. Much in the same way I can understand why he decided to charge the stands that night.

But on an adult and professional level, it was just a poor choice in both regards. That PR firm he hired obviously did a poor job briefing him for the kinds of questions he would likely get.

oh really......so something other than a direct denial wouldve been in order????

cmon people....anything other than a direct denial leads to the same result as saying yes to the question....and u all know that....

Since86
07-14-2005, 03:14 PM
I attempted, albeit poorly, to phrase my statement to be unique to professional sports.

But yes, I would be interested in whether or not the head of a multi-billion dollar business was being brough tup on charges, and if he complied with the terms of his "probation". I would think all of those things would have a rather direct impact on the price of said company's stock.


The fate of the pacers doesn't hang by a thread with Ron holding on the dangling end.

Pacers brass have quite a bit more of information regarding the situation, and if they feel like he needs cut, then I expect them to cut their losses.

I don't see how not admitting he sees a therapist, means he's not admitting he has a problem. He's said numerous times he knows he has a problem. If he's admitting he has some sort of problem, and is actually seeing a shrink, I don't see how it's a negative thing. Heaven forbid he keeps his private life, private.

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:15 PM
I attempted, albeit poorly, to phrase my statement to be unique to professional sports.

But yes, I would be interested in whether or not the head of a multi-billion dollar business was being brough tup on charges, and if he complied with the terms of his "probation". I would think all of those things would have a rather direct impact on the price of said company's stock.

u do know that hes been brought up on charges.....

as far as probation goes....he hasnt been convicted of anything yet...but u will know that when it happens....if convicted, then the probation thing can be addressed then....though its really none of ur business if hes complying but only if hes not, might it be an issue...

it still has nothing to do with him seeing a therapist being made public.....employers make conditions of employment for many employees.....they dont make such conditions public knowledge....its illegal....called a right to privacy...

and u know what....this is all really a joke...because the same people on here saying how they were put off by him denying it are the same people that would be on here saying they were put off by something else he does...doesnt matter...some people will never be satisfied....and they know that....

the simple fact they say "he doesnt get it" really says it all....

doesnt get what???? the fact millions of fans are jealous or resentful and want to get inside his life? oh he gets that....

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:18 PM
We do actually have a "right" to know these things in these sort of situations. That's why companies are forced to release quarterly stock reports, much in the same way the Pacers are "forced" to deal with the media and public scutiny that runs hand-in-hand with professional sports.

But you've said to the contrary repeatedly, so there's no possible way anyone else could be correct.

you are grossly mistaken if u think companies are obligated to put in quarterly stock reports if their employees or executives are seeking therapy....

do u realize how ridiculous that is.....its illegal....dont u get it???

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:22 PM
a person getting arrested is a matter of public record...

a person going to therapy is not...in fact its deemed by the courts to be one of the most private of issues, and efforts go to great lengths to maintain a persons privacy where this is concerned....

whether u agree or not...

Since86
07-14-2005, 03:23 PM
Ah, but when he decided to put his emotional and personal problems on display on an almost nightly basis for a number of years, cumulating in the largest brawl in NBA history, and doing so in a profession that demands a high of level of personal interaction with fans and the public, he intentionally (although doubfully knowingly) gave up the right to keep those sort of problems entirely in his private life.

As for how much power the Pacers brass holds, I agree (and wish they had cut their losses a while ago). They've made the decision to hang onto Ron, however (and I hope they're right in doing so, there's no question about his talent and potential positive impact). But all it takes it one flair-up one day before a trade can be consumated to blow-up yet another season.


How did he put his emotional and personal problems on display? If he sat there crying about his problems, thats one thing, but I saw him doing his job, then taking offense to ONE persons actions. That's hardly his life story there.

So because he went into the stands, do you need to know if he's ever cheated on his wife? That's a personal problem, and according to you, he gave up every aspect of his private life when he jumped the scorer's table.

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:24 PM
[QUOTE=btowncolt]Ah, but when he decided to put his emotional and personal problems on display on an almost nightly basis for a number of years, cumulating in the largest brawl in NBA history, and doing so in a profession that demands a high of level of personal interaction with fans and the public, he intentionally (although doubfully knowingly) gave up the right to keep those sort of problems entirely in his private life.[QUOTE]

says who??????????????????????

Since86
07-14-2005, 03:29 PM
Reading comprehension is for chumps.


Ah, but when he decided to put his emotional and personal problems on display on an almost nightly basis for a number of years, cumulating in the largest brawl in NBA history, and doing so in a profession that demands a high of level of personal interaction with fans and the public, he intentionally (although doubfully knowingly) gave up the right to keep those sort of problems entirely in his private life.


Because he plays basketball, he has no private life, and he gave up his private life intentionally, but he didn't know he gave them up.

How can you do something intentionally, but you don't know that you did it?

But that's okay, my fault.

Arcadian
07-14-2005, 03:30 PM
ur missing the point....totally....

its not about courage....sharing ur most intimate secrets of ur personal life doesnt make u courageous....

he gets paid millions to play basketball....not to be a public advocate and example for the pros and cons of therapy....one could argue that him coming out and admitting it could do as much harm as it could good....the naysayers would say, "if thats what therapy does, i want no part of it"....its a no win situation...and why private lives should be kept private, like it or not....

1)Telling people they totally miss the point isn't really helpful in arguing your point or furthering dialogue. When you start a response that way it tells me I saw what you wrote and either you think I'm stupid or you've made little effort to see my point. I don't believe that either of those messages were what you were trying to communicate.

2)I completely disagree with the idea that a person admitting that they have a problem and getting help for it has nothing to do with courage. If that is how you truely feel then perhaps that is why we disagree.

3)This is a bit off subject on my part but NBA players do not make thier money because they play basketball. If simply playing basketball earned money the Milkan's family would have been able to afford his burrial costs.

NBA players make money because people pay to watch them play basketball and take an interest in thier personalities. This is especially true in the star driven promotions of the NBA.

Bottom line is that Ron makes millions for being in the public eye. He is under no obligation to use that fame for good causes. (Ron in fact does and is a very generous person.) However, in this case I think he made a mistake. He should have had an answer ready that wasn't a lie.

By the way I wish people who think that therapy is a personal issue would apply that same logic to drug use, law infractions, personalities and sex lives. Those issues usually aren't said to be out of bounds and the only reason I think that in this case it is different is that Ron is a Pacer.

Since86
07-14-2005, 03:33 PM
By the way I wish people who think that therapy is a personal issue would apply that same logic to drug use, law infractions, personalities and sex lives. Those issues usually aren't said to be out of bounds and the only reason I think that in this case it is different is that Ron is a Pacer.

Last time I checked, denying you are going to therapy wasn't a crime, but hey that's just my reading comprehension skills at work. :shrug:

Hopefully he doesn't go to jail for it.



(Amazing that denying something is now considered on par with infractions that can land you in jail for 3+ yrs.)

Diamond Dave
07-14-2005, 03:34 PM
My god things are slow.

The "P" in "PD" stands for psychology right?

Arcadian
07-14-2005, 03:37 PM
Last time I checked, denying you are going to therapy wasn't a crime, but hey that's just my reading comprehension skills at work. :shrug:

Hopefully he doesn't go to jail for it.



(Amazing that denying something is now considered on par with infractions that can land you in jail for 3+ yrs.)

I never said anything about your reading skills...but not all of the things I listed were legal infractions.

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:46 PM
1)Telling people they totally miss the point isn't really helpful in arguing your point or furthering dialogue. When you start a response that way it tells me I saw what you wrote and either you think I'm stupid or you've made little effort to see my point. I don't believe that either of those messages were what you were trying to communicate.

if i tell u i dont like the taste of beets and thats why i dont eat them and u come back to me with the nutrional benefits of beets-uve missed the point...and while u might not like it..and it may not be very conversational, its still the truth...some of u want to go into the merits of why he should disclose something that is of a private nature....doesnt matter why u think he should....its private...therefore, its none of our business...no matter what good it might do...


2)I completely disagree with the idea that a person admitting that they have a problem and getting help for it has nothing to do with courage. If that is how you truely feel then perhaps that is why we disagree.

ahhh...but we dont disagree....what we apparently disagree with is who that person should admit it to and more importantly who they choose to disclose what they are doing about it to.....based on what ur saying, one should admit it to the whole world and then tell the whole world what they are doing to make things better....i disagree with that...ron has admitted he has problems...even said some of the things that he would like to do-as it relates to public knowledge-less techs and flagrants and playing more as a team....


3)This is a bit off subject on my part but NBA players do not make thier money because they play basketball. If simply playing basketball earned money the Milkan's family would have been able to afford his burrial costs.

NBA players make money because people pay to watch them play basketball and take an interest in thier personalities. This is especially true in the star driven promotions of the NBA.

Bottom line is that Ron makes millions for being in the public eye. He is under no obligation to use that fame for good causes. (Ron in fact does and is a very generous person.) However, in this case I think he made a mistake. He should have had an answer ready that wasn't a lie.

as i said earlier...any answer other than a denial he would be persecuted for...whether he says its noones business...or no comment...it was a no win situation....how would u expect him to answer just about any aspect of his personal life that was seemingly being brought into question....denial is the pat response for politicians, athletes, etc....


By the way I wish people who think that therapy is a personal issue would apply that same logic to drug use, law infractions, personalities and sex lives. Those issues usually aren't said to be out of bounds and the only reason I think that in this case it is different is that Ron is a Pacer.

im not sure what ur trying to say here....if ur saying that people are too concerned with public figures personal lives then i would agree....but im not sure thats what ur saying, because if it were , im not sure why you would be arguing that he should have shared his personal life with the world...

i cant speak for anyone else, but i feel this to be the case for everyone, not just ron...

however arrests and what have u are matters of public record, so in that light it is a bit different...

RWB
07-14-2005, 03:46 PM
You know the real question should be is if Reggie's willing to layout that personal info on Artest then shouldn't he come clean on who burnt down his house?

foretaz
07-14-2005, 03:51 PM
You know the real question should be is if Reggie's willing to layout that personal info on Artest then shouldn't he come clean on who burnt down his house?

and this is kinda the whole point...

is there anyone who truly doubts ron isnt going to therapy?????

is there anyone that truly doubts who burnt reggies house down?????

why does everyone have this persecution complex????

u did it...u know u did it....now admit it.....hahahahaha.....

i seriously dont get it...can it be any more immature?

Arcadian
07-14-2005, 03:57 PM
My purple friend you have a Ragnarian ability to carry on an arguement.

All I am saying is Ron shouldn't have lied about it.

If you don't think that Reggie should have outted him that's fine by me.

RWB
07-14-2005, 03:57 PM
denial is the pat response for politicians, athletes, etc....
SIZE][/COLOR]


How many times do I have to tell you? I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Now Monica go in there and get me some Cubans.

Since86
07-14-2005, 04:11 PM
I never said anything about your reading skills...but not all of the things I listed were legal infractions.


It was an allusion, I know you didn't say anything about them.

No, not all of them were against the law. Just 2 out of the 3. But still comparing the two, would mean they are on equal levels, and that's about as far off base as you can get short of calling it murder.

foretaz
07-14-2005, 04:56 PM
My purple friend you have a Ragnarian ability to carry on an arguement.

All I am saying is Ron shouldn't have lied about it.

If you don't think that Reggie should have outted him that's fine by me.

im not a proponent of lying....however i understand the dilemma hes faced with....and as i said, it was a no win situation...and bottom line is his responsibility to the fans does not require him being honest and forthright when it comes to his personal life....

i think if anyone, including u, was in rons shoes, they would do exactly the same....and i wont fault him for that....i refuse to hold him to a higher standard than anyone else...

Speed Freak
07-14-2005, 05:38 PM
Perhaps everyone misses the point?

Ron made a decision about his personal life that was his to make. In no way are we obligated to know anything about him. If his employer made explaining this to the public a condition of his employment he would then have to decide whether he should explain what he was doing, or quit. That is his decision to make as well. It would appear that the Pacers have left this matter to Ron to explain how he chooses. If Ron felt comfortable with everyone knowing, we would know. If he doesn't feel comfortable letting everyone know, than he doesn't have to.

However, this same point applies to the argument that is going on. It is for each and every individual to decide what they deem an appropriate response is for specific situations. The person who felt that Ron ought to have not denied his therapy and needed more courage in admitting his problem isn't wrong. Neither is the person who felt this matter was private and had no reason to be revealed. Those are both valid opinions and, last I checked, we are allowed to have those. They are right as the topic relates to them. Whereas one person may grow and be helped by admitting his faults, another may feel it's private and have nothing to gain by doing so. These decision are situational and furthermore, are different from one individual to the next. So perhaps everyone arguing is missing the point?

It is a person's undeniable right to have an opinion in this matter. However, that doesn't mean one party is correct and the other is false. It means that humanity has many facets and this is an example of that in progress. As individuals, we form opinions about nearly everything we are informed of. You can't fault any person for that.

Do we have a right to demand Ron act on our opinions though? Absolutely not. The final decision is up to him. Employers, family members, friends, fans, and therapists may place consequences on whichever decision he makes in order to encourage the response they prefer, but they can't force him to make a decision he's not ready to commit to. And that's his right.

Personally, I believe that Reggie ought not to have acknowledged something that Ron had wished not to be said. But I am not Reggie/Ron, so I cannot say how this effects either. It's my opinion that handling this matter was/is Ron's obligation, not Reggie's. I also, however, do not believe that there is nothing to gain in admitting that you have a problem. There can be many instances where being openly honest about your troubles can be very helpful. It's not for any of us to decide for Ron whether this is one of those instances though.

In all reality, none of us know enough about Ron as a person and the therapy and organizations he is working with to declare we know the correct or best way to do things in regards to him. We can only form an opinion based on what we know, and wait, watch and listen to see what happens next.

So maybe arguing about who's right and who's wrong is a silly thing to do. Who's to honestly say which decision is right or wrong in this instance other than Ron Artest? Maybe instead we should explain our opinions, recieve others' opinions and feel better informed because we have heard more opinions than our own.

That's just my opinion anyways. Take it for what it's worth.

SoupIsGood
07-14-2005, 10:10 PM
My god things are slow.

The "P" in "PD" stands for psychology right?

I was beginning to think it stands for Purple.

Los Angeles
07-14-2005, 10:21 PM
I was beginning to think it stands for Purple.
ZING again!

SoupIsGood
07-14-2005, 10:23 PM
ZING again!

I'm on a roll tonight, I think I will quit while I'm ahead. :devil:

McKeyFan
07-15-2005, 01:41 AM
1) dont u understand tht u havnt rd a singl thing iuve said??????????

2) I can't do this purple thing anymore. Sorry. You make good points, but I just can't read them anymore. :(

This is Btown's best attempt at saying he was wrong. And like Ron, he can't just come out and admit it.

Sollozzo
07-15-2005, 01:54 AM
and this is kinda the whole point...

is there anyone who truly doubts ron isnt going to therapy?????

is there anyone that truly doubts who burnt reggies house down?????

why does everyone have this persecution complex????

u did it...u know u did it....now admit it.....hahahahaha.....

i seriously dont get it...can it be any more immature?


Maybe I'm just way out of the loop. What was the scoop on the fire? I never followed it too closely, I just always thought they had no clue who did it.

foretaz
07-15-2005, 06:59 AM
First of all, I have no clue why, but I cant see any of foretaz posts in this thread. Very weird.........

I do agree with most everyone in this thread. I do think that therapy is a very private thing (I have lots of friends that have gone over my 19 years, and I have almost gone twice) and it can be a very embarrassing (sp) thing. I see no reason why I should have to tell anyone jack **** about my life.

I also agree with btown about the fact you forfeit (sp) (assuming this is what you are inded saying) this "right" so to speak when you become a pro athelte and/or famous. Wether that is right or not, that is a whole nother discussion..............

interesting....becoming a pro athlete or famous means u forfeit ur right to a private and personal life.....

whether or not that is right is exactly what this discussion has been about....

and that notion is simply ludicrous....pro athletes and famous people, while being in the public spotlight, are just as entitled to a private and personal life as anyone else....the fact that some meddling, curious fan says otherwise is laughable....

foretaz
07-15-2005, 07:02 AM
Maybe I'm just way out of the loop. What was the scoop on the fire? I never followed it too closely, I just always thought they had no clue who did it.

it was reported that an initial investigation was done....

that reggie then called off the investigation by authorities and specifically insurance people....and he agreed to not file a claim....and ate the cost of the fire and the rebuild....reggie is no longer married....

what do u know about filters for coffee makers?

RWB
07-15-2005, 08:27 AM
....reggie is no longer married....


Did you know she finally made it in a movie? Dinner Rush, haven't seen it but heard it was pretty good.

Since86
07-15-2005, 10:12 AM
it was reported that an initial investigation was done....

that reggie then called off the investigation by authorities and specifically insurance people....and he agreed to not file a claim....and ate the cost of the fire and the rebuild....reggie is no longer married....

what do u know about filters for coffee makers?


Actually State Farm paid for the damages. ;) My dad knows his agent, plus we have a guy insured that was living 3 doors down at the time who just recently moved away from there.

grace
07-15-2005, 01:56 PM
If we can somehow mention Brad Miller and Jamison Brewer, this thread will finally be complete.

Jamison would like me to remind all of you that in Reggie's Beyond The Glory he said they've never found out who burned down his house. He said ever six months or so he'll receive a letter or a phone call presumably from the arsonist.

Brad said he asked Reggie if he's going to give "that b-atch" a role in his upcoming movie. I cannot report his answer because the language would most likely get me banned.




There, our lives are now complete. :D

Bball
07-15-2005, 02:07 PM
interesting....becoming a pro athlete or famous means u forfeit ur right to a private and personal life.....

whether or not that is right is exactly what this discussion has been about....

and that notion is simply ludicrous....pro athletes and famous people, while being in the public spotlight, are just as entitled to a private and personal life as anyone else....the fact that some meddling, curious fan says otherwise is laughable....


Here is how it is whether you like it or not...
When a person's livelihood and earning power depends on their acceptance by the general public they have to make some concessions.

Artest can deny he's in therapy, he can refuse to go to therapy, he can rob the therapist's office if he wants.... but he'll have to deal with the consequences of doing so. He has a perception and marketing problem at this point in time and IMHO admitting therapy is not going to make that problem worse but instead would actually improve it.

If I am going to be writing checks to PS&E for this season I'd like to know that the player most responsible for changing what I expected to see last year (and what I wrote last year's checks intending to see... A championship quest with a high probability of being in the hunt all season long) is doing EVERYTHING in his power to get things straightened out. Artest is a damn good player. IMHO his play means more to the team than JO. ...But that assumes Artest keeps his focus on basketball and his butt out of the stands.

I have no 'right' to know Artest is in therapy. I do have a reasonable need to know as do other 'curious and meddling fans'. It isn't laughable in my world. Tickets cost money. So does travel, popcorn, drinks, T-shirts, etc.. And besides the money there is the emotional involvement of following a team. That said, I don't expect details of Artest's therapy... And a non-comittal type answer from him would've been somewhat acceptable.

What's worse is the denial. That is worrisome to most people unless they prefer to stick their head in the sand and cover their ears signing "La La La La". He could've said he is doing everything the league (or team) has asked of him and preferred not to talk about specifics... and I would've been fine with that. That would've spoke volumes in and of itself. I would think after therapy sessions that Artest should feel comfortable enough with them, understand them enough... if he'd opened his mind to them... to lose any fear of stigma that he may attached to them.

The denial makes me wonder if Artest has closed his mind to them and thinks "this is stupid" the whole time he is there rather than trying to get something from the experience. IMHO, the denial (lying) doesn't paint a pretty picture and raises questions... and it is more questions that are the last thing Artest needs swirling around him right now (IMHO). Unfortunately, the denial (lying) tends to speak volumes as well (or surely implies it).

I fail to see why you can't acknowledge there are valid points on both sides of this debate. You even seem to have a need to denigrate the opposing viewpoints. Are you even reading them?

-Bball

Since86
07-15-2005, 02:18 PM
The denial makes me wonder if Artest has closed his mind to them and thinks "this is stupid" the whole time he is there rather than trying to get something from the experience. IMHO, the denial (lying) doesn't paint a pretty picture and raises questions... and it is more questions that are the last thing Artest needs swirling around him right now (IMHO). Unfortunately, the denial (lying) tends to speak volumes as well (or surely implies it).


The Pacer's don't single out and market Ron. He was damaged goods in that aspect long ago. Whether he is, isn't, or lies about himself going to therapy isn't going to stop someone from continueing to like him, start liking him, or start disliking him. The line has been drawn in the sand with 99% of people regarding Ron.


Why does denying actual therapy frighten you? He has admitted numerous times before, that he has a problem that needs to be worked on. If he works on them in his own way, and the results are yet to been seen, then how are you able to discredit them already? If he kept denying he had any sort of problem at all, I can understand where you're coming from, but that's not the case.

foretaz
07-15-2005, 02:23 PM
reading every word....usually at least twice...

but there is no validity to them....because theyre twisted and inaccurate....

ron hasnt denied hes going to therapy....hes denied to the press hes going to therapy....

everything ur then saying about this denial would be true if he was truly in denial...but hes not...

believe it or not...and this seems to be a concept u and some others have a problem understanding....denying something in the press-refusing to disclose personal and private matters....does not necessarily constitute ron is in denial...in fact, in this case its quite apparent that he is indeed in counseling....and by his own admission he has things he needs to work on....hes said so on numerous occasions now....saying hes not going to therapy to a reporter really makes no difference....and any smart person should realize this....

anyone that wants to make a federal case out of ron telling reporters hes not going to therapy.....when they know he is going to therapy....has other issues....

and quite frankly, if ur writing a check to PS&E is based on them being able to contend for a title...then i could care a less if u wrote that check or not...whether its the case or not it seems to say if they dont contend, then ur not going to write the check.....u can figure out the rest....

and btw....they still finished in the top 8 last year....and if ur 'writing the check' is dependent on whether ron tells the whole world something the whole world should already know....well like i said....maybe u should save the cash...

Bball
07-15-2005, 02:28 PM
reading every word....usually at least twice...

but there is no validity to them....because theyre twisted and inaccurate....

ron hasnt denied hes going to therapy....hes denied to the press hes going to therapy....

everything ur then saying about this denial would be true if he was truly in denial...but hes not...

believe it or not...and this seems to be a concept u and some others have a problem understanding....denying something in the press-refusing to disclose personal and private matters....does not necessarily constitute ron is in denial...in fact, in this case its quite apparent that he is indeed in counseling....and by his own admission he has things he needs to work on....hes said so on numerous occasions now....saying hes not going to therapy to a reporter really makes no difference....and any smart person should realize this....


I have no time to reply to this post properly but from what I read above it seems like you are saying "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is..."

-Bball

foretaz
07-15-2005, 02:44 PM
what im saying is simple....

if ron was in denial, then the situation would be different...

hes not, hes said as much as is required to indicate this...hes said hes got things he needs to work...even specified a few of these...

ur only in denial if u choose to deny u have a problem to those that are in a position to help....

hes going to therapy...everyone in the world who has half a brain knows this....

denying this to the press is obviously saying he has no desire to share his personal and private life with the whole world...he is only one of the more recent in an unbelievably long list of public figures to do this...thats what public people do....they deny it...because its noones business....and denial is short, sweet and the least telling....

now....do u believe hes been in therapy??

if u do, then its obvious hes not in denial...u cant do both....

so if u believe that, then whats the problem????

RWB
07-15-2005, 02:59 PM
Jamison would like me to remind all of you that in Reggie's Beyond The Glory he said they've never found out who burned down his house. He said ever six months or so he'll receive a letter or a phone call presumably from the arsonist.
:D

Well I guess that eliminates Lisa Lopes, but not Ms. M.

McKeyFan
07-15-2005, 04:22 PM
I have no time to reply to this post properly but from what I read above it seems like you are saying "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is..."

-Bball

This sounds to me like another form of "I can't read purple anymore."

He wasn't parsing "is." He was making some decent points. As I mentioned above, Ron may not be the only one has a problem admitting he is wrong sometimes.

It's really not very hard. Just say, "Good point. Hadn't though of that. You may be right, I may be wrong. I'll give it some thought." Fortaz may not make it very easy with his strong denunciations, but others of you have posted on here too long, too well. You're big enough to rise above it.

Bball
07-15-2005, 11:12 PM
This sounds to me like another form of "I can't read purple anymore."

He wasn't parsing "is." He was making some decent points. As I mentioned above, Ron may not be the only one has a problem admitting he is wrong sometimes.

It's really not very hard. Just say, "Good point. Hadn't though of that. You may be right, I may be wrong. I'll give it some thought." Fortaz may not make it very easy with his strong denunciations, but others of you have posted on here too long, too well. You're big enough to rise above it.

Just to be clear...

Originally Posted by Bball
I have no time to reply to this post properly but from what I read above it seems like you are saying "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is..."
...meant exactly what it said. I didn't mean "I have no more time for this" or "this is no longer worth my time". It meant I had some place to be and had no time left to fully read and reply to the posting(s).


-Bball

Bball
07-15-2005, 11:29 PM
denying this to the press is obviously saying he has no desire to share his personal and private life with the whole world...

This is a point we differ on. I don't think it is 'obvious' at all what it says and that's what I've been trying to say. It could say a lot of things. You've chosen to attach your opinion to what it says and prefer to believe that and apparently only that. That is fine but I've not seen enough evidence to make me believe that is the only possible scenario and you've been less than convincing. You've convinced me that YOU believe that... and you've convinced me it is a POSSIBILITY but you've said nothing to close the door on any other speculation at all. And that is all this is on both sides of the aisle- speculation.

I certainly don't think denying it was the best course of action... I've already said there were several things he could have said without lying and without talking about the therapy that would've been WAY more obvious he was telling the press it was out of bounds.

It's my opinion that if the therapy was making inroads Ron wouldn't be inclined to deny it. So it worries me a little. Deal with it. It doesn't worry you at all... fine by me. ...Just don't pretend your speculation or opinion is any more valid than mine just because you've made up your mind and are apparently happy with it. When it comes to Artest I am choosing to hope for the best but expect the worst. I like being pleasantly surprised rather than than sadly disappointed.



he is only one of the more recent in an unbelievably long list of public figures to do this...thats what public people do....they deny it...because its noones business....and denial is short, sweet and the least telling....

now....do u believe hes been in therapy??

if u do, then its obvious hes not in denial...u cant do both....

so if u believe that, then whats the problem????

The problem is he lied and said he wasn't in therapy. I'm taking what he said at face value and know it's a lie. Those are apparent facts as backed up by Reggie Miller on natl radio. The rest of what we are talking about is pure speculation and that is alright by me on a discussion board.


.they deny it...because its noones business....and denial is short, sweet and the least telling....

That's one list of possibilities... It's not the only ones tho. I'm not even sure it is the best ones. Regardless of how those tip the scales they aren't the only real possibilities.

But, one last time, I happen to believe if the therapy was making inroads then Artest would have less of a problem admitting to the therapy.. or at least not denying it. Nobody is asking or expecting details.

-Bball

Bball
07-15-2005, 11:43 PM
Why does denying actual therapy frighten you? He has admitted numerous times before, that he has a problem that needs to be worked on. If he works on them in his own way, and the results are yet to been seen, then how are you able to discredit them already? If he kept denying he had any sort of problem at all, I can understand where you're coming from, but that's not the case.

I am not discrediting them already. I am anxiously awaiting the results. I've just chosen not to see only the rosy side of the picture in all this speculation. I'm NOT arguing foretaz is wrong. I am arguing that his view is not the only possible view on the subject and that disagreeing with him doesn't make the other party a fool.

I just believe flat out denying the therapy COULD be saying something that throws a wet blanket on the Artest return and all our hopes.

I continue to hope for the best and expect the worst. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

I don't know Artest's motive for lying about the therapy. I can't read minds. I can only speculate which is all any of us can do in this circumstance. Foretaz is claiming it is 'obvious' what this lying means and I dispute that. That is the crux of why I am beating my head against the wall in this thread. I'm saying nothing in it is 'obvious'. ....especially when it comes to Artest.

-Bball

Bball
07-15-2005, 11:46 PM
and quite frankly, if ur writing a check to PS&E is based on them being able to contend for a title...then i could care a less if u wrote that check or not...whether its the case or not it seems to say if they dont contend, then ur not going to write the check.....u can figure out the rest....

and btw....they still finished in the top 8 last year....and if ur 'writing the check' is dependent on whether ron tells the whole world something the whole world should already know....well like i said....maybe u should save the cash...

Thanks for telling me how to be a proper fan. It is much appreciated.

-Bball

foretaz
07-16-2005, 12:25 AM
This is a point we differ on. I don't think it is 'obvious' at all what it says and that's what I've been trying to say. It could say a lot of things. You've chosen to attach your opinion to what it says and prefer to believe that and apparently only that. That is fine but I've not seen enough evidence to make me believe that is the only possible scenario and you've been less than convincing. You've convinced me that YOU believe that... and you've convinced me it is a POSSIBILITY but you've said nothing to close the door on any other speculation at all. And that is all this is on both sides of the aisle- speculation.

I certainly don't think denying it was the best course of action... I've already said there were several things he could have said without lying and without talking about the therapy that would've been WAY more obvious he was telling the press it was out of bounds.

It's my opinion that if the therapy was making inroads Ron wouldn't be inclined to deny it. So it worries me a little. Deal with it. It doesn't worry you at all... fine by me. ...Just don't pretend your speculation or opinion is any more valid than mine just because you've made up your mind and are apparently happy with it. When it comes to Artest I am choosing to hope for the best but expect the worst. I like being pleasantly surprised rather than than sadly disappointed.



The problem is he lied and said he wasn't in therapy. I'm taking what he said at face value and know it's a lie. Those are apparent facts as backed up by Reggie Miller on natl radio. The rest of what we are talking about is pure speculation and that is alright by me on a discussion board.



That's one list of possibilities... It's not the only ones tho. I'm not even sure it is the best ones. Regardless of how those tip the scales they aren't the only real possibilities.

But, one last time, I happen to believe if the therapy was making inroads then Artest would have less of a problem admitting to the therapy.. or at least not denying it. Nobody is asking or expecting details.

-Bball

so what ur really saying is this...u believe hes in therapy....

you just have a problem with him denying it...

and you have a problem with him lying about it....

ok...very simple....do u think hes denying it with the pacers brass???

is he denying it with his teammates? reggie says no...

is he denying it with the nba??? obviously not....

so really what this keeps coming back to is one thing....that he refuses to admit it to the whole world....

do u think its reasonable to assume, that in his therapy it has been discussed as to how he handles these types of situations, since its obvious it would come up????

do u think any therapist in the world would tell him he should broadcast the fact that hes going to therapy to literally the whole world????

so once again, just because a fan doesnt like the fact that a player or public figure refuses to disclose personal and private info, he says this is somehow evidence that ron still has issues, because hes obviously not doing things the right way....well my friend, the right way is not the right way....its ur way....and when do u get it? do u think this issue caught everyone off guard??? do u think they were stunned they were asked this question????...hardly....the pacers brass, the nba, and the people responsible for his therapy and him improving himself all came to agreement that this is the best way to handle it....im sorry you or anyone else that disagrees werent involved in that decision...

funny thing is, if u were ron....u would do the exact same thing....because everyone else in the world does...ill ask it again....how many times have u seen a public figure come out and admit they are in therapy....now....how many of them do u believe are in therapy????

this isnt about my take or opinion on the situation....this is about a whole slew of facts....and the facts usually point to one obvious conclusion, especially when there are so many facts that are actually known....

when u choose to disagree as u have, it means u disagree with facts that really arent in question....so in other words ur denying the obvious...and i really dont know what to tell u in that regard....

yes...in the end people can believe what they want to believe, even if the facts say otherwise....really....it appears ron is not the one with the real denial problem?????

foretaz
07-16-2005, 12:30 AM
Thanks for telling me how to be a proper fan. It is much appreciated.

-Bball

noone told u how to do anything....however dont be mad at me for pointing out the obvious....dont be mad at the pacers because they cant provide u with the guarantees that seemingly are so important to u...

sports doesnt work that way....and many wish they did....and if its a prerequisite then im just saying u might want to save a little cash and heartbreak...

you say u hope for the best and expect the worst...well if thats the case then it should not be a problem writing that check....obviously that philosophy doesnt go along with the one that u indicated u use when writing the check....seems that might be the biggest problem...

Bball
07-16-2005, 02:18 AM
so what ur really saying is this...u believe hes in therapy....

you just have a problem with him denying it...

and you have a problem with him lying about it....

ok...very simple....do u think hes denying it with the pacers brass???

is he denying it with his teammates? reggie says no...

is he denying it with the nba??? obviously not....

so really what this keeps coming back to is one thing....that he refuses to admit it to the whole world....

do u think its reasonable to assume, that in his therapy it has been discussed as to how he handles these types of situations, since its obvious it would come up????

do u think any therapist in the world would tell him he should broadcast the fact that hes going to therapy to literally the whole world????

so once again, just because a fan doesnt like the fact that a player or public figure refuses to disclose personal and private info, he says this is somehow evidence that ron still has issues, because hes obviously not doing things the right way....well my friend, the right way is not the right way....its ur way....and when do u get it? do u think this issue caught everyone off guard??? do u think they were stunned they were asked this question????...hardly....the pacers brass, the nba, and the people responsible for his therapy and him improving himself all came to agreement that this is the best way to handle it....im sorry you or anyone else that disagrees werent involved in that decision...

funny thing is, if u were ron....u would do the exact same thing....because everyone else in the world does...ill ask it again....how many times have u seen a public figure come out and admit they are in therapy....now....how many of them do u believe are in therapy????

this isnt about my take or opinion on the situation....this is about a whole slew of facts....and the facts usually point to one obvious conclusion, especially when there are so many facts that are actually known....

when u choose to disagree as u have, it means u disagree with facts that really arent in question....so in other words ur denying the obvious...and i really dont know what to tell u in that regard....

yes...in the end people can believe what they want to believe, even if the facts say otherwise....really....it appears ron is not the one with the real denial problem?????


You can say a lot without really saying anything at all. I've already spoken to all of this. I'll boil it down tho.

Your 'facts' aren't -all- 'facts' at all but rather your speculation on the subject. Calling these facts may make you feel more secure in your position(s)... but doesn't change a thing.

My problem with Artest's denial is that I feel there were better answers and if he was getting anything from the therapy (and everything else he's supposedly doing) then he would've likely used a better answer. Especially since he's had the question more than once and denied it everytime. It's not like he should've been taken by surprise.

Not only do you tell us all what Ron is thinking and why is he doing what he does but you also have the ability to tell me what I'd do? Climb down off the high horse and join reality.

I'm not saying you are wrong... I am saying there are alternate answers here and you can't possibly KNOW your's are the correct ones unless you have a pipeline to Artest.

----

I'll sum this up even better for you:
You have a THEORY about why Ron lied about being in therapy. A theory. Not facts. Not the final answer. A theory.

I admit your theory could be correct. It also could be wrong. Too bad you can't admit the same thing.

-Bball

Bball
07-16-2005, 02:29 AM
noone told u how to do anything....however dont be mad at me for pointing out the obvious....dont be mad at the pacers because they cant provide u with the guarantees that seemingly are so important to u...

sports doesnt work that way....and many wish they did....and if its a prerequisite then im just saying u might want to save a little cash and heartbreak...

you say u hope for the best and expect the worst...well if thats the case then it should not be a problem writing that check....obviously that philosophy doesnt go along with the one that u indicated u use when writing the check....seems that might be the biggest problem...

Your arrogance is showing and it is mighty unbecoming. DO NOT challenge my loyalties as a fan or pretend to have some great insight which you obviously don't have. You are twisting my point and this line of discussion is not appreciated at all.

Unless you find some new ground I've pretty much said all I can to you on the original topic of Artest's therapy and his denial. I'm repeating myself and you're going to argue your THEORY is the only possible answer and is obvious and based on facts (which are mostly your opinions and speculation... but you won't let that get in the way).

On the topic of 'fandom', I'm not going down that path with you.

-Bball

foretaz
07-16-2005, 02:47 AM
You can say a lot without really saying anything at all. I've already spoken to all of this. I'll boil it down tho.

Your 'facts' aren't -all- 'facts' at all but rather your speculation on the subject. Calling these facts may make you feel more secure in your position(s)... but doesn't change a thing.

My problem with Artest's denial is that I feel there were better answers and if he was getting anything from the therapy (and everything else he's supposedly doing) then he would've likely used a better answer. Especially since he's had the question more than once and denied it everytime. It's not like he should've been taken by surprise.

Not only do you tell us all what Ron is thinking and why is he doing what he does but you also have the ability to tell me what I'd do? Climb down off the high horse and join reality.

I'm not saying you are wrong... I am saying there are alternate answers here and you can't possibly KNOW your's are the correct ones unless you have a pipeline to Artest.

----

I'll sum this up even better for you:
You have a THEORY about why Ron lied about being in therapy. A theory. Not facts. Not the final answer. A theory.

I admit your theory could be correct. It also could be wrong. Too bad you can't admit the same thing.

-Bball
lol...too funny...so what ur saying is because ron doesnt come out and tell us why he lied that its not based on fact? lol...well thats a helluva thing to rely on....

if a tornado comes thru and wipes out a town...but i wasnt there...does that mean i cant say that the tornado is what destroyed my house??

u keep wanting to say that the facts arent facts....which one do u question?

do u question the fact that this denying to the press wasnt premeditated?

this is the old...looks like a rose...smells like a rose...tastes like a rose...feels like a rose....

now its like ur disputing the validity of the facts because david stern wont verify to u personally that a condition of reinstatement was that he go to counseling....

so based on that...ur right....make u feel better?? as a fan we have not had that confirmation...and likely wont...and if thats the sort of thing u r basing ur thought process on then im sorry..dont know what to tell u...

and really this isnt even about being wrong....its just that u dont like it....u dont like the fact that all these people made a decision u dont like...

isnt that really what it comes down to??

ok...ill bite....if this isnt what happened....then give me some other plausible explanation given these facts...

this is a time that all the facts point to only one explanation...give me something else that makes sense....

because u want to make this about me not willing to allow i might be wrong...

when really its the facts, and not me, that dictates what the situation is...

Bball
07-16-2005, 03:17 AM
lol...too funny...so what ur saying is because ron doesnt come out and tell us why he lied that its not based on fact? lol...well thats a helluva thing to rely on....

if a tornado comes thru and wipes out a town...but i wasnt there...does that mean i cant say that the tornado is what destroyed my house??

u keep wanting to say that the facts arent facts....which one do u question?

do u question the fact that this denying to the press wasnt premeditated?

this is the old...looks like a rose...smells like a rose...tastes like a rose...feels like a rose....

now its like ur disputing the validity of the facts because david stern wont verify to u personally that a condition of reinstatement was that he go to counseling....

so based on that...ur right....make u feel better?? as a fan we have not had that confirmation...and likely wont...and if thats the sort of thing u r basing ur thought process on then im sorry..dont know what to tell u...

and really this isnt even about being wrong....its just that u dont like it....u dont like the fact that all these people made a decision u dont like...

isnt that really what it comes down to??

ok...ill bite....if this isnt what happened....then give me some other plausible explanation given these facts...

this is a time that all the facts point to only one explanation...give me something else that makes sense....

because u want to make this about me not willing to allow i might be wrong...

when really its the facts, and not me, that dictates what the situation is...


I suggest you re-read this thread, and in particular my replies, for you will find your answers there. Reading this latest post by you makes me question your comprehension abilities. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you simply missed some things in the rush of the day (Being a Friday and all).... or perhaps I didn't use a proper font or color?

_Bball

foretaz
07-16-2005, 03:22 AM
I suggest you re-read this thread, and in particular my replies, for you will find your answers there. Reading this latest post by you makes me question your comprehension abilities. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you simply missed some things in the rush of the day (Being a Friday and all).... or perhaps I didn't use a proper font or color?

_Bball


thats exactly the response i expected.....remember something....when people do something that u dont understand or dont agree with, it doesnt necessarily mean that they are the one with the problem....

cheers...

Bball
07-16-2005, 03:32 AM
thats exactly the response i expected.....remember something....when people do something that u dont understand or dont agree with, it doesnt necessarily mean that they are the one with the problem....

cheers...

Is this English? It is rather senseless.
Remember this: Arrogance is not a becoming trait.

-Bball

foretaz
07-16-2005, 03:45 AM
Is this English? It is rather senseless.
Remember this: Arrogance is not a becoming trait.

-Bball

i agree...neither is ignorance....shall we make a list of traits that arent becoming?