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Unclebuck
07-12-2005, 09:52 AM
I realize for many of you Ron has already used up his chances and then some.

For others of us still hanging in there, I would like to know specifically will make you say enough is enough, Ron must go.

Let me say one thing in response to Kravitz column. No, Ron has never led his team to the NBA Finals. Neither has T-Mac, KG, Lebron, Wade, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Steve Nash, well I could make a really long list.

One other thing, I hear people say well Artest is a top 20, top 15 or maybe even a top 10 NBA talent. If that is all it was, if all he had was talent even that much talent, I would not be such a huge fan. But when you combine his talent, with his physical toughness, effort, energy, constant hustle and all the other good intangibles he brings, then you really have quite a player.






http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050712/COLUMNISTS01/507120400/1034

How many more chances will this guy get?



"I'm older and more mature now": Ron Artest says he will be on exemplary behavior upon returning to the Indiana Pacers. -- Sam Riche / The Star



They still see what they want to see, still believe what they want to believe. And so the Indiana Pacers' brain trust sits in various spots around Conseco Fieldhouse on Monday, watching Ron Artest and knowing, absolutely knowing, that Artest can finally be trusted to stay out of trouble.

They are seeing something I don't see. (And it's not for a lack of effort on my part. I've strained so hard to see Artest through their eyes, I've given myself a hernia.)

But I fear the Pacers are fooling themselves once again.

They are clinging, incredibly enough, to the notion that Artest will return next season a changed man and will help lead them to an NBA title.

"What have you learned about yourself during this long time away from the game?" I asked Artest as he spoke Monday to the local media for the first time in months.

He looked me in the eyes and smiled.

"I always knew I'm a ghetto-type guy; I'm from the 'hood. I'll be ghetto the rest of my life," he said. "At the same time, there's a lot of kids who look up to you. For that, I'll change."

So let me understand.

Artest is going to manage his temper better because he wants to be a better role model for kids?

Sorry.

I'm a suburbs-type guy.

So maybe I don't get it.

But it seems to me there are a lot more important reasons Artest must get his act together as the Pacers grant him yet another last chance -- his eighth, if my count is accurate:

How about changing for his teammates, who risked their safety during the Throwdown in Motown and played through unimaginable circumstances?

How about changing for an organization that has always publicly (if not always privately) given Artest support and second opportunities?

How about changing because at his current pace, he risks becoming another Dennis Rodman, a sad caricature who becomes known for his antics rather than his talent.

For Artest, though, there's this ominous bottom line: "I'm a 'hood cat."

That's the explanation for the multiple missteps over the years?

I remember something Isiah Thomas once said as he recalled his impoverished childhood in Chicago: "I'm from the ghetto, but I'm not of the ghetto."

Give me five minutes, and I'll give you a list of 50 players who come from circumstances as bad or worse than Artest. And I'll promise you none of them has drawn a near yearlong suspension for hitting a fan.

When Artest was asked Monday if he went to any therapy sessions during his suspension, he looked into the distance. "It was suggested," he said. "But I turned it down."

If he did engage in some kind of therapy, I can appreciate his desire to keep that private. For some people, there's a stigma attached -- even though there shouldn't be.

All I'll say is, if he didn't get some kind of counseling, he completely wasted the best chance he will ever have to turn around his life on the court.

"Do you think you have an anger management problem?" I asked later.

"No," he said evenly. "I'm ghetto. That's it."

I believe people can change.

But I've heard this all before: "I'll learn from my mistakes" and "I know now that I've got to put the team first" and "I'm older and more mature now."

I can understand if fans buy into that nonsense. They're supposed to be true believers.

But Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh? And team president Larry Bird? Wasn't there the overwhelming sense that when Bird was hired, he would be a no-nonsense leader who would trade a player in a heartbeat if he disgraced the game or this organization?

Remember how he immediately busted on Jermaine O'Neal for expressing his affinity for Thomas, the previous Pacers' coach?

When last season ended, Bird used the occasion to challenge O'Neal once again. Not that O'Neal couldn't use a healthy kick to the posterior, but at least he played and often played hurt.

How about Artest, who was ready to abandon his team early in the season, even before the brawl?

And to think, we used to rip Thomas for being too soft on Artest.

But we can't trade him.

Wrong.

They can trade him tomorrow.

The issue is, they know they can't get equal value, or anything close to equal value.

They know that when Artest is concentrating on winning basketball, he's the greatest bargain in the NBA.

Tell me, though, how many times has Artest led his team to the NBA Finals?

And how far did the Pacers get in last season's playoffs with a team whose players trusted one another, and were willing to sacrifice for the good of the team?

Let's get this straight:

I like Artest. I want Artest to become a superstar instead of a national punch line. There is absolutely nothing personal behind the criticism.

But it's time, past time, for Walsh and Bird to think with their heads, and not with their hearts.

Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star

Suaveness
07-12-2005, 10:09 AM
First off, I never ever take anything Kravitz says seriously, because he's there only to upset people in the first place. It's his job

Artest, for me, gets chances because the guy is too good. I want to believe that he has truly changed after what happened last year, and I am willing to keep him here for that. He is just such a great great player. If he has one more thing like last year, then maybe it's time to get rid of him. But I don't think it will happen, and I think he will have a superb year.

What happened last year, with us going to the semis, was nice and all, but I don't think we could do it again this year. That was won with quite a bit of heart, and a lot of Reggie and Dale. What we need now is for these group of players to play as a team, but Artest has got to be a part of it. All of the characteristics UB mentioned are so vital, and we saw that this year many of those would have really helped the team. I remember how it was before the 19th, how good this team really was. I'm excited to think that we can become that again.

sixthman
07-12-2005, 10:34 AM
Ron deserves and is getting at least one more chance, that's for sure.

RWB
07-12-2005, 10:49 AM
Let's get this straight:

I like Artest. I want Artest to become a superstar instead of a national punch line. There is absolutely nothing personal behind the criticism.

Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star

What a bunch of BS this is. The only part that is truthful is Kravitz saying it's not personal with him. How could it be personal, did Artest ever do anything Kravitz?

Just by reading Kravitz articles you know he prefers stirring the pot. He does not want Artest to get his act together because then there are no stories. Kravitz problem is he has a dream of being one of the talking heads on Around the Horn. Of course you have to have a personality to do that and Kravitz has none.

By the way, ONE more screw-up (and I don't mean a simple tech) and Artest needs to be cut.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 10:50 AM
kravitz is just like a minority of fans....

he can say how its a huge mistake and artest will never change and should be shipped off.....that he ran out of chances and so on and so forth...

then if something does happen, he can say i told u so.....

and if nothing does happen, then he can allude to what else he said....that he was glad that ron did change-as he truly had hoped that all along...and that he couldnt be happier for the pacers....and bird and walsh once again have proven how good they are if they could truly rehab a guy that was as bad off as artest....

its really a joke....call them spineless...call them a bunch of pu$$ies....call them whatever u like....its just a way of setting themselves up for an excuse....people love to say i told u so....and many peoples main concern is being right....

bottom line is i trust bird and i trust walsh....kravitz and a minority of fans have very little actual info....just like most fans, kravitz has gotten very few details....yesterday was the first time he had talked to artest in almost 8 months....it cracks me up how kravitz and fans can speak so authoritatively and judgementally on something they have very little knowledge of....

bird and walsh have all the details....they know ron and his situation far better than some lame brain writer or fan....ill trust their judgement and knowledge of the situation....since they seem to be far better suited to make such judgements...

Unclebuck
07-12-2005, 10:59 AM
Ron deserves and is getting at least one more chance, that's for sure.


I realize that, I guess I'm more interested in what "one more chance" means.

One missed practice, one flagrant foul, one refusal to get on the team plane, one league suspension for any reason if it is only one game

foretaz
07-12-2005, 11:06 AM
ron should be treated the same as any other player on the team....

i really dont like this one more chance thing....

if ron or anyone else does something that merits being gotten rid of, i assume donnie and larry will do so....

bottom line is ron hasnt done anything to do that....because hes still here....

we could just as well be discussing the same situation with jack or jo or tins or anyone else....

does anyone wonder that if jack continues to reference his gang ties he will be shipped out?

sorry, but the whole frame of reference seems to go back to the wanting to say 'i told u so' thing....

i hope noone on the team does anything to warrant any action by the team....

and if they do i trust bird and walsh to do the right thing....

peoples love for the dramatic, hence one more chance, has very little to do with the basketball team....

i look forward to seeing what the final roster is for opening nite and watching just how great this team will be.....

not looking to see if artest or someone else screws up

Gamble
07-12-2005, 11:25 AM
I just wrote Kravitz and told him that he fits perfect in this state.
Always negative and never believing in any team. I wonder why
Kravitz left Denver to come to here. Maybe he got fired for being
a rock in the cities shoe. I don't even know why he still has a job
here.

RWB
07-12-2005, 11:29 AM
What one more chance means to me is not that complicated. There is a certain norm we do expect society to follow. That's all I expect from Ron. We shouldn't have to come up with a specific and unrealistic list considered the taboo things that would get Ron fired (ala Bob Knight).

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 11:31 AM
ron should be treated the same as any other player on the team....

i really dont like this one more chance thing....

if ron or anyone else does something that merits being gotten rid of, i assume donnie and larry will do so....

bottom line is ron hasnt done anything to do that....because hes still here....



:-o

I just have to ask why you're on a message board? Why waste your time talking about something that Bird and Walsh will handle perfectly anyway? If I was that trusting I would never read a sports page, go on a message board, or listen to a sports show. I would just watch a game and know that anything good that happened was due to Managements great judgement and that anything bad that happened would be a fluke.


call them a bunch of pu$$ies

Perhaps I'm just being one of these, along with the rest of those who question the divine wisdom of Larry Bird. :rolleyes:

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 11:41 AM
God damn. I had thought Kravitz likes to say something stupid and ridiculous just to get a reaction, and then I read Foretaz's response. Now, I think Kravitz's piece was somewhat mellow and well thought-out in comparison.

Anyhow, I have mellowed a bit on Artest, so I don't really have a problem with giving him another chance. I don't think it's the greatest of ideas, but I can live with it.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 11:42 AM
lemme see....

questioning someones divine wisdom...

because what they do differs from what u would do....

and they have all the facts and are directly involved with the parties involved on a day to day basis...

and you have no real knowledge of the situation or any involvement with the parties involved....

now again....whos wisdom should be questioned???

diamonddave00
07-12-2005, 11:50 AM
Personally I had no problem with Kravitz article. His comment while some take them as a personal vendetta against Ron were legit.

I was under the impression Ron Artest , was ordered by David Stern to seek councelling as part of his program for reinstatement. So if thats the case Ron did .

Ron's refusal to admit he has any type of anger problem worries me. Admitting to a problem is the first step in controlling that problem. If he seeked help and received it but does not want to admit it - no problem. But if he didn't , I WORRY we will see very little of Ron Artest on the court this season. Ron will be tested by opponents , fans and officials like he never has been in the past.

The how many chances Uncle Buck poses is very real. What will be considered another chance???? If Ron is late for practice repeatedly? If Ron has outburst in practice ? During a game?

If these occur when is the time Larry & Donnie say enough is enough and get whatever they can for Ron??

Hopefully this does not occur, but the question must be asked, and Pacer brass must have a point set for when enough is enough.

Though I truely hope Ron Artest has changed , talk is cheap . Ron will forever be a player most Pacer fans will hold their breathe everytime there is a mild incident on the court - will Ron blow up? Lets hope Ron , will ease that fear as time goes on.

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 11:53 AM
I 100% believe that Ron had some sort of therapy during his suspension, I just don't think he is admitting to it.

Didn't Stern himself say he had therapy? (Not a classy move, by the way. There's a reason Ron doesn't reveal that, Stern was an *** for doing so.)

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 11:54 AM
lemme see....

questioning someones divine wisdom...

because what they do differs from what u would do....

and they have all the facts and are directly involved with the parties involved on a day to day basis...

and you have no real knowledge of the situation or any involvement with the parties involved....

now again....whos wisdom should be questioned???

Thats my point. No ones. You shouldn't waste your time with it. They obviously know exponentially more than you or I. Clearly you could just go golfing right now. It seems pretty pointless to discuss things that are completely under control and in good hands.

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 11:58 AM
Personally I had no problem with Kravitz article. His comment while some take them as a personal vendetta against Ron were legit.

I was under the impression Ron Artest , was ordered by David Stern to seek councelling as part of his program for reinstatement. So if thats the case Ron did .

Ron's refusal to admit he has any type of anger problem worries me. Admitting to a problem is the first step in controlling that problem. If he seeked help and received it but does not want to admit it - no problem. But if he didn't , I WORRY we will see very little of Ron Artest on the court this season. Ron will be tested by opponents , fans and officials like he never has been in the past.

The how many chances Uncle Buck poses is very real. What will be considered another chance???? If Ron is late for practice repeatedly? If Ron has outburst in practice ? During a game?

If these occur when is the time Larry & Donnie say enough is enough and get whatever they can for Ron??

Hopefully this does not occur, but the question must be asked, and Pacer brass must have a point set for when enough is enough.

Though I truely hope Ron Artest has changed , talk is cheap . Ron will forever be a player most Pacer fans will hold their breathe everytime there is a mild incident on the court - will Ron blow up? Lets hope Ron , will ease that fear as time goes on.

Two Diamond Daves think alike. ;)

But be careful dave, you might just be spineless or a pu$$ie.

I don't think so, I believe it is possible to hope for the best and just not expect it.

RWB
07-12-2005, 12:04 PM
Two Diamond Daves think alike. ;)

But be careful dave, you might just be spineless or a pu$$ie.


DD, I know foretaz doesn't need anyone to defend him, but I must have missed any reference to him calling you or any other forum member this? :confused:

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 12:07 PM
kravitz is just like a minority of fans....

[snip]

its really a joke....call them spineless...call them a bunch of pu$ies....call them whatever u like....its just a way of setting themselves up for an excuse....people love to say i told u so....and many peoples main concern is being right....



:) er.... :mad: uhm... :rolleyes: eh, yes let's just :-p

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 12:07 PM
DD, I know foretaz doesn't need anyone to defend him, but I must have missed any reference to him calling you or any other forum member this? :confused:

See his first reply in this thread. He said that Kravitz is the same a small minority of fans which includes me, as I agree with Kravitz. He then proceeds to call that minority spineless and pu$$ies.

indygeezer
07-12-2005, 12:14 PM
Considering I'm one of those who's "one more chance" occured 11/19.....

but I feel like Soup does on this issue. Therefore....


:lurk:

Suaveness
07-12-2005, 12:18 PM
You know, every Ron thread is going to degenerate into For and Against, so why do we bother talking about him anyway? Lets just wait to see what he does this year...

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 12:21 PM
You know, every Ron thread is going to degenerate into For and Against, so why do we bother talking about him anyway? Lets just wait to see what he does this year...

I can agree with that.

RWB
07-12-2005, 12:22 PM
See his first reply in this thread. He said that Kravitz is the same a small minority of fans which includes me, as I agree with Kravitz. He then proceeds to call that minority spineless and pu$$ies.

I stand corrected. :blush:

Unclebuck
07-12-2005, 12:23 PM
Sorry I started this thread.

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 12:29 PM
Sorry I started this thread.

See, I really liked the idea of this thread. I wanted to see what everyone's final straw was, if there was a straw. If we can just take the namecalling and the idea that everyone should just agree with management because they obviously know know more mentality out of it, then we could have a good thread.

So I propose we re-start this thread by asking you UB, what would be you're final straw?

diamonddave00
07-12-2005, 12:32 PM
Well like Indy_geezer , I'm an old fart . I'm willing to give Ron another chance, but even his most ardent supporters can't feel 100% he has changed. In anyone with intellegence , you must question repeated showings of inability to control oneself .

To me this forum and all other are for expressing our opinions on varying subjects . The beauty of it ,is that we don't have to agree. I'd hope that we could disagree without , simply reverting to being called- pu$$ies, spineless and such. I can think of no time when name calling settled an argument.

As for the comment that those who question Ron's ability to change , doing it solely so they can say I told you so, we are not doing that we are simply expressing the other side of the picture. Well I know in my case I am. As a Pacer fan since the very first ABA , I have lived and died emotionally forever with this club. I truely hope Ron , has changed but as I said words are cheap , his actions will be the deciding factor.

When dealing with ones mental actions you can never be 100% sure they have changed. We can only hope they have , but to simply naively think just because Ron says he's changed, that he has is totally fooling yourself.

We all wish to believe that people change but its not something that happens overnight. Ron , has taken the first steps but its a long road .

The fact people question Ron's ability to change quickly is no way an indication they don't believe him - his past history ,shows he has a problem.

Uncle Buck and Kravitz , asking how many chances will he get is a very legit question.

Harmonica
07-12-2005, 12:38 PM
i really dont like this one more chance thing....

if ron or anyone else does something that merits being gotten rid of, i assume donnie and larry will do so....

bottom line is ron hasnt done anything to do that....because hes still here....


Really? Your entire supposition can be thrown out the window based on the fact that Donnie and Larry tried unsuccessfully on several occasions to trade Ron last summer. Why do you think that is? Because a Ron for Peja trade would have been a steal for the Pacers? Or maybe, just maybe, they had simply had it after the ECFs. That the line was drawn then. Nah, that couldn't be it because that would be pure speculation on anyone's part. Then, of course, 11/19 happened. I imagine it was then that Donnie and Larry woke up and realized they were wrong to try and move Ron and that trading him (along with Bender) for McGrady would have been a collosal mistake on their part.

I don't believe for one second that Walsh and Bird think that "Ron can finally be trusted to stay out of trouble" as Kravitz stated. And it's certainly not about "how many chances will he get" anymore.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 12:43 PM
u have to wonder about anyone that gets any sort of enjoyment or satisfaction on another person having some sort of problems....

now when that person is a highly paid professional athlete, it seems its a bit more commonplace...

and its apparent that kravitz will relish the time if artest does do something out of the ordinary.....why? because he wants to be right....

and when being right is more important than the actual issues....like playing basketball or a persons emotional makeup....thats pretty pathetic....

now....did i say anyone like that exists on here? no....do they exist on here? i dunno....

but kravitz is definitely a spineless pu$$y.....cause he gets off on this whole thing.....hes probably getting off on reading this....and he will make himself out to be a savant and an all knowing expert if something bad were to happen to ron....and thats truly sad...

but what if nothing happens? what if ron leads them to a championship? what if rons an allstar? dpoy? team leader?

will he talk about how he was the stupid one? how he was out of line? how hes been wrong so many times? noooooo....

he just wants to sit in the catbird seat....hes pi$$ed that ronnie has dissed him for so long....so hes used his column as a personal vendetta against the guy....so he takes shots and keeps track of how many chances ron has been given.....well trust me....ron hasnt been given nearly as many chances as kravitz has....

has kravitz just once stood up and said....i was wrong....nope....he just throws a bunch of crap out there and if it works out he gloats....if it doesnt, he ignores it and talks about something else....he knows nothing about what he writes, yet tries to come off as an expert....not unlike a few on here.....then when hes not right, he misdirects, again, not unlike a few on here....

now, if u fit this description, then fine, so be it....u are a spineless pu$$y as far as im concerned....

most of u dont fit that bill....standing by and seeing what happens doesnt count as being that way....even if ur not an artest fan, it doesnt make u one of these....

but if ur the type that is trumpeting how bad a person ron is, and what a waste he is...and how he has no business being on this team.....and will derive some sort of satisfaction in saying i told u so, if god forbid, something would happen.....then yes...i think ur as mentioned.....anytime someone would find some sort of satisfaction in something like that, to avoid the obvious pain it would otherwise cause, is a spineless pu$$y in my eyes....sorry if that offends you....

if ur a fan....i expect u to hurt when something bad happens to the team and feel great when they go well....if something bad happens to the team i dont expect anyone to feel better by saying i told u so or anything along that lines....

dont misunderstand.....theres a huge difference

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 12:43 PM
Well like Indy_geezer , I'm an old fart . I'm willing to give Ron another chance, but even his most ardent supporters can't feel 100% he has changed. In anyone with intellegence , you must question repeated showings of inability to control oneself .

To me this forum and all other are for expressing our opinions on varying subjects . The beauty of it ,is that we don't have to agree. I'd hope that we could disagree without , simply reverting to being called- pu$$ies, spineless and such. I can think of no time when name calling settled an argument.

As for the comment that those who question Ron's ability to change , doing it solely so they can say I told you so, we are not doing that we are simply expressing the other side of the picture. Well I know in my case I am. As a Pacer fan since the very first ABA , I have lived and died emotionally forever with this club. I truely hope Ron , has changed but as I said words are cheap , his actions will be the deciding factor.

When dealing with ones mental actions you can never be 100% sure they have changed. We can only hope they have , but to simply naively think just because Ron says he's changed, that he has is totally fooling yourself.

We all wish to believe that people change but its not something that happens overnight. Ron , has taken the first steps but its a long road .

The fact people question Ron's ability to change quickly is no way an indication they don't believe him - his past history ,shows he has a problem.

Uncle Buck and Kravitz , asking how many chances will he get is a very legit question.

:applaud:

I wish I could have put that as eloquently.


I think everyone here knows that his last chance with me came at 11/19 or the ECF. But dd00, what would it take this year for you to say "enough."

Hicks
07-12-2005, 12:47 PM
You know, every Ron thread is going to degenerate into For and Against, so why do we bother talking about him anyway? Lets just wait to see what he does this year...

I've been where you are now for a long time. We'd all be better off if everyone just chilled with the finger-pointing and waited to see who's right.

canyoufeelit
07-12-2005, 12:48 PM
He has one more shot. But the next suspension that's > 1 or 2 games (eg. a MAJOR fighting suspension or something else extreme), he will be shipped out of town to the highest bidder. Why? Because the P's now have a legit replacement in Granger.

RWB
07-12-2005, 12:54 PM
They still see what they want to see, still believe what they want to believe. And so the Indiana Pacers' brain trust sits in various spots around Conseco Fieldhouse on Monday, watching Ron Artest and knowing, absolutely knowing, that Artest can finally be trusted to stay out of trouble.

They are seeing something I don't see. (And it's not for a lack of effort on my part. I've strained so hard to see Artest through their eyes, I've given myself a hernia.)


So the above is the bottom line. Kravitz is saying it. He doesn't trust Artest to stay out of trouble and I guess that interview confirmed it for him. I hope Kravitz didn't strain too hard.

You know I've really strained myself (so hard I almost gave myself hemeroids) to see Kravitz through the news staff eyes. I just don't see where he actually cares one iota about the Pacers or Colts or anything Indiana.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 12:57 PM
I've been where you are now for a long time. We'd all be better off if everyone just chilled with the finger-pointing and waited to see who's right.


and this is really my whole issue....somehow the issue has turned into which side will be right and which side will be wrong about artest....

and for the life of me i dont understand that....

everyone has their favorites....everyone has guys they dont particularly care for....or their nonfavorites.....

when croshere screws up, im not thinking "see, if that twirp wasnt on the team"....or dammit rick "u should know better than to put him in".....no...it hurts because hes a pacer and if he hurts the team, well then that hurts....and just because id love to see him gone, doesnt mean i will relish in the fact when he screws up or causes problems....

as long as artest is a pacer, as long as croshere is a pacer, as long as jo is a pacer, as long as jeff is a pacer, as long as david is a pacer, as long as danny is a pacer, etc......if one of them screws up, it sucks...it will hurt.....

and how anyone could relish in saying i told u so....or i was right.....hell, austin couldnt hit the broad side of a barn the latter part of the season, yet he kept shooting for the most part....and i felt zero comfort in knowing that everytime he came into the lineup and bricked a few more that i knew better, that if it were me, he wouldnt be in there....doesnt matter...

seems the issue is really twisted in some peoples minds....this is about rooting for ur team...wanting them to win a championship....not whether one of the players makes a mistake of epic proportions-and then being able to say i told u so, thereby being right....

Will Galen
07-12-2005, 12:57 PM
I could have posted this article early this morning when I posted the other Star articles. However I took one look at the title and passed as not worth posting.

I didn't read the article on here either. Kravitz is just trying to stir things up, and I for one refuse to waste my time reading him.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 01:02 PM
They still see what they want to see, still believe what they want to believe. And so the Indiana Pacers' brain trust sits in various spots around Conseco Fieldhouse on Monday, watching Ron Artest and knowing, absolutely knowing, that Artest can finally be trusted to stay out of trouble.

They are seeing something I don't see. (And it's not for a lack of effort on my part. I've strained so hard to see Artest through their eyes, I've given myself a hernia.)


So the above is the bottom line. Kravitz is saying it. He doesn't trust Artest to stay out of trouble and I guess that interview confirmed it for him. I hope Kravitz didn't strain too hard.

You know I've really strained myself (so hard I almost gave myself hemeroids) to see Kravitz through the news staff eyes. I just don't see where he actually cares one iota about the Pacers or Colts or anything Indiana.

the funny part is this...and what hes really so pi$$ed about....its where he sits....he doesnt like the fact that he basically sits where u and i sit....he has no knowledge whatsoever of what goes on....he has no inside info....

is it any wonder he doesnt see it? he doesnt want to see it, we all know that, hes made that obvious....and since hes totally barred from the whole situation, how could he see anything.....hes bitter...because hes spurned....its not the brain trust at conseco's responsibility to see that kravitz sees it....nor is it the brain trust's responsibility to make sure that members of a message board see it......they know...and thats all that matters....whether people agree with them or not is of no consequence....people will always agree and disagree anyway....much like we never know what is happening behind the scenes with other things, is it any wonder we and kravitz arent gonna know any of the goings on where this is concerned????? and that really pi$$es kravitz off.....
'

beast23
07-12-2005, 01:03 PM
Let's get this straight:

I like Artest. I want Artest to become a superstar instead of a national punch line. There is absolutely nothing personal behind the criticism.


What a bunch of BS this is. The only part that is truthful is Kravitz saying it's not personal with him. How could it be personal, did Artest ever do anything Kravitz?

Just by reading Kravitz articles you know he prefers stirring the pot. He does not want Artest to get his act together because then there are no stories. Kravitz problem is he has a dream of being one of the talking heads on Around the Horn. Of course you have to have a personality to do that and Kravitz has none.

By the way, ONE more screw-up (and I don't mean a simple tech) and Artest needs to be cut.

It's kind of funny, really. Before I read your post, RWB, I highlighted the same lines of the article to use as a quote, but for vastly different reasons.

You see, Kravitz doesn't believe a word that Artest is spewing. Well, quite frankly, I don't choose to believe the particular quote that we both have cited.

I thyink that it has become VERY personal with Kravitz. If for no other reason, he would like to see Artest fall on his face because he would like to pull the old playground ploy.

"Na-na-na-na-naaaaa-na. I told you so."

I think it is very important to Kravitz that he ends up being correct regarding the whole Artest situation. And I think his desire to be negative, while also being correct, far outweighs any desire on his part to actually experience a feel-good story whereby we would actually witness Artest overcome his shortcomings and become a success story.

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 01:06 PM
the funny part is this...and what hes really so pi$$ed about....its where he sits....he doesnt like the fact that he basically sits where u and i sit....he has no knowledge whatsoever of what goes on....he has no inside info....

is it any wonder he doesnt see it? he doesnt want to see it, we all know that, hes made that obvious....and since hes totally barred from the whole situation, how could he see anything.....hes bitter...because hes spurned....its not the brain trust at conseco's responsibility to see that kravitz sees it....nor is it the brain trust's responsibility to make sure that members of a message board see it......they know...and thats all that matters....whether people agree with them or not is of no consequence....people will always agree and disagree anyway....much like we never know what is happening behind the scenes with other things, is it any wonder we and kravitz arent gonna know any of the goings on where this is concerned????? and that really pi$$es kravitz off.....
'

You know, I just don't get it. You've spent so much time in this thread talking about who knows what, and who's mad because they don't know, and who should be trusted because they know.

Yet then you give us a pysch-analysis of Bob Kravitz, a man who you most likely have never met let alone know, and act as if you know exactly what the man's thinking. :confused:

indygeezer
07-12-2005, 01:07 PM
and this is really my whole issue....somehow the issue has turned into which side will be right and which side will be wrong about artest....

and for the life of me i dont understand that....

everyone has their favorites....everyone has guys they dont particularly care for....or their nonfavorites.....

when croshere screws up, im not thinking "see, if that twirp wasnt on the team"....or dammit rick "u should know better than to put him in".....no...it hurts because hes a pacer and if he hurts the team, well then that hurts....and just because id love to see him gone, doesnt mean i will relish in the fact when he screws up or causes problems....

as long as artest is a pacer, as long as croshere is a pacer, as long as jo is a pacer, as long as jeff is a pacer, as long as david is a pacer, as long as danny is a pacer, etc......if one of them screws up, it sucks...it will hurt.....

and how anyone could relish in saying i told u so....or i was right.....hell, austin couldnt hit the broad side of a barn the latter part of the season, yet he kept shooting for the most part....and i felt zero comfort in knowing that everytime he came into the lineup and bricked a few more that i knew better, that if it were me, he wouldnt be in there....doesnt matter...

seems the issue is really twisted in some peoples minds....this is about rooting for ur team...wanting them to win a championship....not whether one of the players makes a mistake of epic proportions-and then being able to say i told u so, thereby being right....

Avro I did hurt, I did get physically ill, when Ron went into the stands. I hurt for the Pacers AND for him. Even tho I had gone past his last chance, he was still on the team and I was still cheering for them ALL. We CAN do that. It isn't as black and white, LOVE/HATE as you make it out to be. We can be tired of his act and wish he were elsewhere and still cheer for him as a Pacer. Heck, I even rooted for Travis Best and Jalen Rose. It is not about HATING the person. It's about wanting what is best for the TEAM. And I have never had my lips locked on any players backside so much that I lost site of the TEAM and what was important to them.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 01:08 PM
Let's get this straight:

I like Artest. I want Artest to become a superstar instead of a national punch line. There is absolutely nothing personal behind the criticism.



It's kind of funny, really. Before I read your post, RWB, I highlighted the same lines of the article to use as a quote, but for vastly different reasons.

You see, Kravitz doesn't believe a word that Artest is spewing. Well, quite frankly, I don't choose to believe the particular quote that we both have cited.

I thyink that it has become VERY personal with Kravitz. If for no other reason, he would like to see Artest fall on his face because he would like to pull the old playground ploy.

"Na-na-na-na-naaaaa-na. I told you so."

I think it is very important to Kravitz that he ends up being correct regarding the whole Artest situation. And I think his desire to be negative, while also being correct, far outweighs any desire on his part to actually experience a feel-good story whereby we would actually witness Artest overcome his shortcomings and become a success story.

and would u really be surprised if that the pacers won the title this year....that his article while congratulatory, will not say anything regarding artest in a complimentary manner, and probably will reference how its a shame reggie wasnt here to be a part of it, and he cant help but wonder if this couldnt have happened a year earlier if it werent for certain people....

thats just it....he doesnt give credit...he only takes it...and he certainly doesnt take responsibility for when hes screwed up...like i said...spineless pu$$y...

Sollozzo
07-12-2005, 01:09 PM
Really? Your entire supposition can be thrown out the window based on the fact that Donnie and Larry tried unsuccessfully on several occasions to trade Ron last summer. Why do you think that is? Because a Ron for Peja trade would have been a steal for the Pacers? Or maybe, just maybe, they had simply had it after the ECFs. That the line was drawn then. Nah, that couldn't be it because that would be pure speculation on anyone's part. Then, of course, 11/19 happened. I imagine it was then that Donnie and Larry woke up and realized they were wrong to try and move Ron and that trading him (along with Bender) for McGrady would have been a collosal mistake on their part.

I don't believe for one second that Walsh and Bird think that "Ron can finally be trusted to stay out of trouble" as Kravitz stated. And it's certainly not about "how many chances will he get" anymore.


That's a great point. People tend to forget that Ron would have been shipped out in a heartbeat if Sacramento had agreed to that deal.

I believe that Ron is only here right now because no team is giving the Pacers any decent offer.

CableKC
07-12-2005, 01:11 PM
I realize that, I guess I'm more interested in what "one more chance" means.

One missed practice, one flagrant foul, one refusal to get on the team plane, one league suspension for any reason if it is only one game

To me...it is one more incident that can cast a bad shadow on the organization as a whole and/or anything that can distract his teammates from focusing on the game.

This could mean anything outside the normal boundaries of the game....which unfortunately for us....could mean anything for Artest. He did it last year with the request to take time off to promote his record. He did it when he went "Kenny Rogers" on a camera man. IMHO....what happened at the Palace ( a situation that was not created but finished by Artest himself ) and the subsequent suspensions won't happen again. But in the end....I leave what is considered "outside of acceptable behavior off the court" to what Bird and Carlisle define as acceptable.

The hard part is defining the "gray" area with any foul that he is going to cause in the future. Because he is such as hardnosed defender that simply never gives up on a play, there is no way that he can avoid getting a techincal or flagrant foul in the future. The problem is separating the "hard but legit" fouls ( like the admittedly "hard" fould that he caused on Wallace last year before the brawl that I consider unintentional ) from the "hard but flagrant" fouls ( like the elbow that he threw at Rip in the ECF that I felt led to the loss of the series that I felt was intentional and therefore unwarranted ).

All Players have the potential to do something that will give him a technical or flagrant foul called on him....so I will not call for him to be traded for something that anybody else can do. But with an electron-microscope focused on Artest by the officials....I am going to give him a little more leeway then the normal player...it just depends on the "degree" of the foul. If the foul is legit....then I let him off the hook....because IMHO...it is part of the game and a result of the way he plays defense ( remember....the same type of "dirty" play is called on Bruce Bowen...another hard nosed man-to-man defender ). But if it is clearly a flagrant and unwarranted foul....then I am less inclined to forgive him. The reason is that because I don't know Artest...I can only give him the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word that he is going to try to be a better man, Its unfair to simply write him off and not believe that he won't change without giving him a chance to prove it. I just hope that his words translate into his actions on the court.

Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that I won't call for him to be traded even is he is as saintly as the Pope....because even the most ardent supporter of Artest recognize that there is a small smidgen of doubt that thinks that he won't go "CooKoo for Cocoa Puffs" and do something TRULY TRULY stupid. Its this small amount of doubt that forces me to call for Artest to be traded.....but ONLY traded for a small handful of players ( like Marion or AK-47 ) in the league. If its anyone else....then I will live with Artest.

Suaveness
07-12-2005, 01:12 PM
Kravitz writes just so there is something to argue about and that there is a different opinion. He knows he writes the unpopular articles and that eveyone will get upset at him. And he seems to be doing a pretty good job at that, doesn't he?

foretaz
07-12-2005, 01:16 PM
Avro I did hurt, I did get physically ill, when Ron went into the stands. I hurt for the Pacers AND for him. Even tho I had gone past his last chance, he was still on the team and I was still cheering for them ALL. We CAN do that. It isn't as black and white, LOVE/HATE as you make it out to be. We can be tired of his act and wish he were elsewhere and still cheer for him as a Pacer. Heck, I even rooted for Travis Best and Jalen Rose. It is not about HATING the person. It's about wanting what is best for the TEAM. And I have never had my lips locked on any players backside so much that I lost site of the TEAM and what was important to them.

i know geez....i have no problems with u and others like u....i know a number of u would probably prefer he be gone....and have no problem with that....thats natural....as ive said...i feel that way regarding players as well....and its not those of u that i direct my comments to.....

kravitz is different....and anyone else that might find some sort of comfort if something were to happen again....kravitz will be happy if artest blows up again....cause he can say i told u so.....if anyone else fits that bill....then i say screwem....cause that means a persons personal hate/love for a player is more important than the team.....

i want this team to win...and i feel their chances are infinitely higher with artest....if anyone...anyone...croshere, artest or anyone, does something to hamper those chances....i will be sick about it....just as i was on nov. 19....but rest assured....even if its austin croshere or eddie gill....people i believe should not be on this team....i wont be interested in saying i told u so....i will just be sick....i have no more interest in blaming ron artest for going into the stands, or austin croshere going 0-12, or eddie gill unable to get the ball up the court or reggie miller missing the game winning shot....it doesnt matter....things happen....and they dont always go our way....im not interested in redirecting my anger, frustration, and hurt at a player that obviously was giving it their all, no matter what my personal feelings might be towards them....

RWB
07-12-2005, 01:17 PM
the funny part is this...and what hes really so pi$$ed about....its where he sits....he doesnt like the fact that he basically sits where u and i sit....he has no knowledge whatsoever of what goes on....he has no inside info....

'

Wow, your comment is perfect. Here's why I agree completely and it has nothing to do with the Pacers.

Kravitz does the same hack job on the Colts. I'm at camp everyday and I know every reporter there to do interviews. Take a guy like Mike Chappell. He is there EVERY DAY to cover the Colts. You may not like everything he writes but at least he MAKES the effort to really see what's taking place.

Now just wait and see how many Colt stories Kravitz starts putting out once camp starts. Sorry, but that one time visit to camp just doesn't get it. Why should the Colts or Pacers take any time to help out this bozo when he doesn't care?

foretaz
07-12-2005, 01:19 PM
That's a great point. People tend to forget that Ron would have been shipped out in a heartbeat if Sacramento had agreed to that deal.

I believe that Ron is only here right now because no team is giving the Pacers any decent offer.

and really....u know this how??? u dont....this is purported by some to be the case....and denied by others as well....

if thats what u want to believe thats fine....but there is zero proof for that, no matter what some might say....and really...irrelevant

Bball
07-12-2005, 01:21 PM
The Sunshine Brigade should simply skip what I am about to bring up... Just move on to the next post....

Does anyone (besides me) believe Ron's latest chance with the Pacers is a bit more complicated than we are led to believe or are making it? I'm wondering if they are worried about JO and the question marks, especially this past season about his ability to lead and play 'A' level team basketball, and if that raised Ron's value to the franchise and lessened the chance of them trading him for second tier talent? IOW- The team brass is no longer sold enough on JO being the cornerstone of the franchise that they feel they can let Artest go.

Without Artest, or a player like Artest (when Artest is playing basketball not headgames), JO is exposed and I don't like what I see.

-Bball

Jermaniac
07-12-2005, 01:23 PM
The only thing I agree with in that article and is one he says how come JO gets a kick in the butt after playing hurt in the playoffs. And Bird doesnt say anything but good things about Ronnie. To tell you the truth I feel that as long as Larry Bird is GM Ron is safer on this team then Jermaine.

Ultimate Frisbee
07-12-2005, 01:24 PM
There is no straw for me... I like Ron Artest...

I think part of Ron's problem are the labels constantly given to him... you know if you're told that you are something enough times its hard to believe otherwise...

Will Galen
07-12-2005, 01:29 PM
now again....whos wisdom should be questioned???


Yours!

I for one agree with what you wrote, because I think the guys in charge, Bird and Walsh, have a good handle on the matter. The Pacers are more than just a basketball team, they are also a business. Artest is an assest to the business who's value is down right now, so at least keeping him until his value goes up is the smart thing to do.

However, you go to far when you call, I quote, "da minority of fans who have different opinions . . . spineless...call them a bunch of pu$$ies."

That's nothing but trolling when you know there are those with differing opinions on here.

But those with differing opinions never bothered Smash, and they don't bother you.

Los Angeles
07-12-2005, 01:31 PM
One thing to add:

If you want to see how disruptive a force Ron is on and off the court (or the internet) just read this thread.

Who remembers "Supporting Ron Ron = Supporting Pacers"? I loved that thread.

indygeezer
07-12-2005, 01:31 PM
The Sunshine Brigade should simply skip what I am about to bring up... Just move on to the next post....

Does anyone (besides me) believe Ron's latest chance with the Pacers is a bit more complicated than we are led to believe or are making it? I'm wondering if they are worried about JO and the question marks, especially this past season about his ability to lead and play 'A' level team basketball, and if that raised Ron's value to the franchise and lessened the chance of them trading him for second tier talent? IOW- The team brass is no longer sold enough on JO being the cornerstone of the franchise that they feel they can let Artest go.

Without Artest, or a player like Artest (when Artest is playing basketball not headgames), JO is exposed and I don't like what I see.

-Bball



ouch! You had to mention that didn't you. Kinda like mentioning the ex-wife to the current wife....bad form. But it IS something I've wondered about too.

CableKC
07-12-2005, 01:31 PM
That's a great point. People tend to forget that Ron would have been shipped out in a heartbeat if Sacramento had agreed to that deal.

I believe that Ron is only here right now because no team is giving the Pacers any decent offer.

I believe this to be true as well.

I've said it before....if the Suns came out 1 day and said...I will trade Marion for Artest....that Bird would personally drive Artest out to Phoenix the next day to simply ship him out to simply eliminate that 5% chance that Artest will fly off the handle and cost the Pacers another season. To Bird and Walsh...it comes down to what they can get for Artest....and I am sure that they ( like many of us ) have a short list of who the Pacers will trade him for but live with him if we don't get that player.

Some of us have a short list ( like me who would only trade Artest for Marion, AK-47 or any top defensive starting SF who can score 10+ games but lockdown his opponent ), whereas others have a huge list of players that they would trade him fo ( ranging from anybody to a bag of potato chips ).

In the end, Artest ( despite all his talents ) is no different then any other player on the Pacers roster.....an asset that brings certain skills to the team that has some pros and cons to keeping him a Pacer. Until that price is met, us Artest Supporters will play Russian Roulette with Artest and live with his offensive/defensive skills that he brings to the court but hope that he doesn't do something stupid AGAIN.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 01:32 PM
Yours!

I for one agree with what you wrote, because I think the guys in charge, Bird and Walsh, have a good handle on the matter. The Pacers are more than just a basketball team, they are also a business. Artest is an assest to the business who's value is down right now, so at least keeping him until his value goes up is the smart thing to do.

However, you go to far when you call, I quote, "da minority of fans who have different opinions . . . spineless...call them a bunch of pu$$ies."

That's nothing but trolling when you know there are those with differing opinions on here.

But those with differing opinions never bothered Smash, and they don't bother you.

the fact that they have a differing opinion was not why i was calling them a spinless pu$$y....hopefully i made that clear, i tried to elaborate later....i called kravitz that and anyone that would do things the way that he does them....

but no....differing opinions dont bother me.....theyre expected....life would be boring if everyone agreed with everyone else about everything...

Harmonica
07-12-2005, 01:33 PM
and really....u know this how??? u dont....this is purported by some to be the case....and denied by others as well....

if thats what u want to believe thats fine....but there is zero proof for that, no matter what some might say....and really...irrelevant

They tried to trade him to the Kings not once, but twice. Tried to trade him to Orlando, too. Who's denied this?

Los Angeles
07-12-2005, 01:36 PM
AH - here it is:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8458

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 01:38 PM
AH - here it is:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8458

:laugh:

foretaz
07-12-2005, 01:39 PM
They tried to trade him to the Kings not once, but twice. Tried to trade him to Orlando, too. Who's denied this?

whos validated it?

and as i said...its irrelevant....

purported trade proposals happen all the time....someone being mentioned in a purported trade proposal is hardly an admonition of wanting a player gone....this isnt fantasy basketball...get real....

and for the record....bird denied it...;)

beast23
07-12-2005, 02:16 PM
Yours!

I for one agree with what you wrote, because I think the guys in charge, Bird and Walsh, have a good handle on the matter. The Pacers are more than just a basketball team, they are also a business. Artest is an assest to the business who's value is down right now, so at least keeping him until his value goes up is the smart thing to do.

However, you go to far when you call, I quote, "da minority of fans who have different opinions . . . spineless...call them a bunch of pu$$ies."

That's nothing but trolling when you know there are those with differing opinions on here.

But those with differing opinions never bothered Smash, and they don't bother you.I agree with this, Will.

Everyone has a limit, a "last straw". Just because someone else's tolerance is less than my own, doesn't make them any more or less of a fan. And it doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.

Years ago, I was an IU basketball fan. Even though I attended Purdue (and IUPUI), my older brothers were IU grads, and once Knight arrived, I was hooked.

But the years passed, and by the time that the early to mid-90's came, my enjoyment was waning. Every morning after a game, I'd go into the office, and instead of talking about the game and the efforts of the players, the topic of conversation by non-IU fans was always about Knight's behavior.

Game after game, year after year. It got old. I don't know exactly when it happened, but I just wasn't enjoying anything to do with IU basketball anymore. And I really loved IU ball, almost as much as I do the Pacers.

The point is, everyone has a limit. I'm backing Artest, at least for now. I hope he comes back and rocks our world. But even I have a limit of how much I will take... even though I don't consciously know what that limit is.

Peck
07-12-2005, 02:24 PM
I have no more straws. I have no choice.

Ron could run on the court naked yelling "I am the lizard Queen" & I would have no choice but to sit there & take it.

I am a Pacers fan, he unfortunatley is a Pacer. I can seperate the two but at the end of the day it's not like he is a 12th man on the bench I have to watch him every game.

So all that I can do is hope that he doesn't do anything to disrupt the team either on or off of the court.

Harmonica
07-12-2005, 02:31 PM
Ron could run on the court naked yelling "I am the Lizard Queen" & I would have no choice but to sit there & take it.

:laugh:

Will Galen
07-12-2005, 02:36 PM
I have no more straws. I have no choice.

Ron could run on the court naked yelling "I am the lizard Queen" & I would have no choice but to sit there & take it.

I am a Pacers fan, he unfortunatley is a Pacer. I can seperate the two but at the end of the day it's not like he is a 12th man on the bench I have to watch him every game.

So all that I can do is hope that he doesn't do anything to disrupt the team either on or off of the court.

DON'T LOOK ETHEL . . . ER PECK, DON'T LOOK! (grin)

You could shut your eyes.

RWB
07-12-2005, 02:39 PM
DON'T LOOK ETHEL . . . ER PECK, DON'T LOOK! (grin)

You could shut your eyes.

Will, you do know there are only a few here that will get this? ;)

The king of Branson I assume by now.

foretaz
07-12-2005, 02:42 PM
Will, you do know there are only a few here that will get this? ;)

The king of Branson I assume by now.

i was thinking the same thing....if u never saw the aba ball u never will get this reference....

SoupIsGood
07-12-2005, 02:48 PM
Maybe I'm crazy but I think I got it.

Knucklehead Warrior
07-12-2005, 02:49 PM
Ron could run on the court naked yelling "I am the lizard Queen" & I would have no choice but to sit there & take it. And I'm a Pacers fan too, but under those circumstances, I would probably throw a cup at him. OTOH, even I would have punched Kravitz if he had asked me those questions.

No matter what Ron does wrong this year, no matter how little a thing it is, this will continue to be the debate. The question was asked:

I would like to know specifically will make you say enough is enough, Ron must go. If he is one of the league leaders in technicals, fragrant fouls, or game suspensions, he's gone because that's still the old Ron. If he punches anybody, even Ben :-o , he's banned for life. I don't like Ron, but let's see what happens.

aceace
07-12-2005, 02:54 PM
I realize that, I guess I'm more interested in what "one more chance" means.

One missed practice, one flagrant foul, one refusal to get on the team plane, one league suspension for any reason if it is only one game

Is this like Coach Knights double secret probation. I would think that it would mean don't get suspended for anything like hitting a fan, or another player.

Will Galen
07-12-2005, 03:39 PM
Is this like Coach Knights double secret probation. I would think that it would mean don't get suspended for anything like hitting a fan, or another player.

If he hits a fan, unless the fan just attacks him he's out of the league. Hitting a player is another story.

Say someone sends a big guy into the game just to mess with Artest. Or Ben Wallace decides that getting Artest thrown out of the league would be worth 10 games and starts a fight. The league and Pacers aren't going to let that happen. If it happens on the playing floor it would just be another fight and dealt with accordingly.

You can say he shouldn't have put himself into position to be taken out that way, and I'll agree, but a playing floor fight shouldn't be a big deal. They happen all the time.

"Walsh said. "We're talking about major issues, though. That's not a flagrant foul or a basketball play. It goes beyond basketball."

In other words if it's just basketball, it's no big deal. If it's craziness off the floor, he better pack his bags, because he's gone one way or another.

Like someone said, there's a point you reach when enough is enough. I haven't reached that point yet, but I could get there in a hurry depending on the situation.

canyoufeelit
07-12-2005, 04:28 PM
If he hits a fan, unless the fan just attacks him he's out of the league. Hitting a player is another story.

Say someone sends a big guy into the game just to mess with Artest. Or Ben Wallace decides that getting Artest thrown out of the league would be worth 10 games and starts a fight. The league and Pacers aren't going to let that happen. If it happens on the playing floor it would just be another fight and dealt with accordingly.

You can say he shouldn't have put himself into position to be taken out that way, and I'll agree, but a playing floor fight shouldn't be a big deal. They happen all the time.

"Walsh said. "We're talking about major issues, though. That's not a flagrant foul or a basketball play. It goes beyond basketball."

In other words if it's just basketball, it's no big deal. If it's craziness off the floor, he better pack his bags, because he's gone one way or another.

Like someone said, there's a point you reach when enough is enough. I haven't reached that point yet, but I could get there in a hurry depending on the situation.

I think I already said it in my post. I could live with a fighting/flagrant suspension under 3 days. But a major fighting suspension and he's gone. If he does the Kenny Rogers thing, he's done. If he flips out on a fan, he's done and Stern will handle it himself.

Suaveness
07-12-2005, 04:35 PM
I have no more straws. I have no choice.

Ron could run on the court naked yelling "I am the lizard Queen" & I would have no choice but to sit there & take it.

:-o ....let me ask you, how much time did you take to think of that?

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 04:38 PM
:-o ....let me ask you, how much time did you take to think of that?

About 3 nano seconds. Lisa Simpson said it after drinking the water at Itchy & Scratchy Land on the "Its a small world" ride in the episode "Selma's Choice"

:nerd:

Unclebuck
07-12-2005, 04:59 PM
Yes the Pacers did try to trade Ron to the Magic last year at this time and guess who advised in his column that the Pacers should not include Ron Artest, None other than Bob Kravitz. In fairness he was not dead set against trading Ron but thought the trade as was rumored in which Ron was a part of was too much, so Bob said don't include Ron. Sounds like he's not perfect either

CableKC
07-12-2005, 05:28 PM
Hmmmm...it would seem that Kravitz is in the same boat as some of us are in.....get rid of Artest ONLY if you can get the right player in return.

Young
07-12-2005, 05:37 PM
I think Ron has ran out of chances before the whole entire brawl. I believe he was offered in a deal for Tracy McGrady as unclebuck mentioned and I think he was offered for Peja as well last September.

The Pacers as we all know are in a position to win a championship, this is the team's prime. Ron is a big part of that, byt the Pacers rely on him to much IMO for us to seriously win a championship. I don't believe anyone can seriously rely on Ron to be there in the playoffs, I certainly do not want to take the chance on him screwing up again. IMO. There is no question in my mind Ron will screw up again, it is just a matter of when and what team he is on and that team I sure hope is not the Pacers.

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 05:42 PM
Buck!!!

I think my question got lost in the mix. I really would like to know what would be the final straw with Ron, and what do you expect from him this year in regards to his on/off the floor behavior?

Peck
07-12-2005, 05:50 PM
Buck!!!

I think my question got lost in the mix. I really would like to know what would be the final straw with Ron, and what do you expect from him this year in regards to his on/off the floor behavior?

I don't remember if you were at that party or not, now that I think about it I don't think you were, but both U.B. & Suaveness made it pretty clear that there is no final straw for them.

Suaveness in particular came out & said that Ron could commit murder & he still would want him on the floor.

U.B. wasn't as bold, but really wasn't that much differant either.

Some people just are that way while others are always looking for Iocaine powder, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Diamond Dave
07-12-2005, 05:53 PM
I don't remember if you were at that party or not, now that I think about it I don't think you were, but both U.B. & Suaveness made it pretty clear that there is no final straw for them.

Suaveness in particular came out & said that Ron could commit murder & he still would want him on the floor.

U.B. wasn't as bold, but really wasn't that much differant either.

Some people just are that way while others are always looking for Iocaine powder, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Well, I think I remember you telling me that.

Buck and Suaveness. :hmm:

Anyways, I'm sure MR will get on here to correct you it is "Idocaine" powder. Odorless and Tasteless, I'd bet my life on it.

sixthman
07-12-2005, 06:56 PM
I realize that, I guess I'm more interested in what "one more chance" means.

One missed practice, one flagrant foul, one refusal to get on the team plane, one league suspension for any reason if it is only one game

Anything abnormal should mean the end of this experiment with the Pacers. The problem is defining abnormal.

Missing practice ONCE accidently is not abnormal, missing several without permission is out of line; a flagrant foul is not aberrant behavior, several flagrant fouls in a short period of time are unacceptable. Going into the stands after a fan would be abnormal; kicking a camera in the hallway outside the locker room is, uh, borderline, probably abnormal. You get the idea. Situational ethics apply here. We can't expect Ron to be a saint, but he is going to have to exercise common sense or he will have to go.

Since he seldom, if ever, has trouble on the floor with officials and seems to have lost his boorish propensity for flagrant fouls, I expect he might be okay. He will undoubtedly be baited by opposing-team-fans and opposing players, but I think he can handle that. So I expect the best, not the worst.

sixthman
07-12-2005, 07:08 PM
I thyink that it has become VERY personal with Kravitz. If for no other reason, he would like to see Artest fall on his face because he would like to pull the old playground ploy.

"Na-na-na-na-naaaaa-na. I told you so."

I think it is very important to Kravitz that he ends up being correct regarding the whole Artest situation. And I think his desire to be negative, while also being correct, far outweighs any desire on his part to actually experience a feel-good story whereby we would actually witness Artest overcome his shortcomings and become a success story.

I hope that is not the case, but your point is well worth considering.

For me at least, how this turns out in the next year is high drama. It's an interesting as a good mystery.

I'll be rooting as hard for Ron to maintain, as I will for the Pacers to win. Unlike Kravitz, I'll admit it. This is now kind of personal. I want Ron to succeed and Bob to eat crow

Will Galen
07-12-2005, 07:23 PM
I hope that is not the case, but your point is well worth considering.

For me at least, how this turns out in the next year is high drama. It's an interesting as a good mystery.

I'll be rooting as hard for Ron to maintain, as I will for the Pacers to win. Unlike Kravitz, I'll admit it. This is now kind of personal. I want Ron to succeed and Bob to eat crow

Kravitz doesn't seem the type that would eat crow. If he was he wouldn't write the way he does.

It's like foretaz said, "and if nothing does happen, then he can allude to what else he said....that he was glad that ron did change-as he truly had hoped that all along...and that he couldnt be happier for the pacers....
yada, yada, yada . . ."

Suaveness
07-12-2005, 07:30 PM
I don't remember if you were at that party or not, now that I think about it I don't think you were, but both U.B. & Suaveness made it pretty clear that there is no final straw for them.

Suaveness in particular came out & said that Ron could commit murder & he still would want him on the floor.

U.B. wasn't as bold, but really wasn't that much differant either.

Some people just are that way while others are always looking for Iocaine powder, it's all in the eye of the beholder.


WAIT WAIT WAIT...I thought I said that murder was the only way I wouldn't mind trading him?!?


Edit: Yes yes, I remember myself saying that the only reason I would want Ron traded was if he committed murder....

At least I hope I said that...

Sollozzo
07-12-2005, 07:44 PM
WAIT WAIT WAIT...I thought I said that murder was the only way I wouldn't mind trading him?!?


Edit: Yes yes, I remember myself saying that the only reason I would want Ron traded was if he committed murder....

At least I hope I said that...


So if Ron made a jackass out of himself again, you still would want him here?

Hey, if he's suspended, quitting on the team, racking up flags, missing flights, getting into fights with JO......it's always comforting to know that "hey, this guy is so talented"

Ron could do anything, and all we would hear about is how talented he is. No player is worth the trouble he's been, and he isn't even a top 10 player in the NBA. But sometimes I'm under the impression that he is the greatest talent to ever put on an NBA uniform.

Unclebuck
07-12-2005, 08:24 PM
So I propose we re-start this thread by asking you UB, what would be you're final straw?


I have only read page one of this thread, so I don't know what was discussed thereafter.

But to answer the question, I really don't know what the final straw would be. There really isn't one thing he could do that would convince me once and for all that he has to go. It would have to be a conentrated and sustained level of disruption.

Looking at this from a very practical perspective, if I thought the team would be better without Ron, or more specifically if a trade opportunity arose that I thought the team would be better by making that trade, then I would be in favor of trading Ron. Thank God the Peja trade did not take place last summer. Even with Ron's problems this past season, I would have been sick about that trade.

I was in favor of the possible trade last year of Artest to the Magic for T-Mac. And I'll tell you right now if Ron was not a distraction, if he wasn't high maintenance, I would not be in favor of such a trade.

If Ron could meld into the team better, and was never a distraction, there might be players in the whole NBA I would trade Ron for.

OK, I'm going to read the rest of the thread now

ChicagoJ
07-12-2005, 09:46 PM
Back from vacation but nothing has changed, I see...

Ron is still is publicly in denial. :unimpress No wonder the Pacers and his PR people kept him away from the press for so long.

Pacers Digest would rather crucify the messenger(s) than attempt to comprehend the question. :unimpress Kravitz, UB and DD have a valid question, and people are dancing around it because they don't really like what the answer means...

Foretaz still needs 398,492.6 paragraphs to make his purple point and inches closer and closer to calling a few of us "haters". :rolleyes:

As for the intended topic of the thread, my final straw was broken a long, long time ago.

If his coaches and teammates don't trust him - and for obvious reasons (as Austin said) they shouldn't - he'll be gone as soon as an acceptable deal is worked out.

And in a season or three, when Danny Granger developes into a top-five SF and Ron has faded into obscurity, these conversations will finally stop.

Beast, Sixthman: I wish I could agree with you, but I just can't. I've had it. I was this close (holding fingers almost together) to cancelling my tickets because of this clown, because my sentiments are almost identical to Peck's. But I'm still a Pacers fan.

But what it ultimately boils down to is this: Granger's presence actually means I'm looking forward to Ron's next disruptions, so Danny can get even more court time to develop into a Grade A Prime NBA forward. :)

MagicRat
07-12-2005, 09:59 PM
Anyways, I'm sure MR will get on here to correct you it is "Idocaine" powder. Odorless and Tasteless, I'd bet my life on it.

Sorry. Iocaine.

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The first is "Never get involved in an Artest poll thread with Sassan." But only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against your father when death is on the line."

I am no one to be trifled with, that is all you ever need know........

Suaveness
07-12-2005, 10:07 PM
Sorry. Iocaine.

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The first is "Never get involved in an Artest poll thread with Sassan." But only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against your father when death is on the line."

I am no one to be trifled with, that is all you ever need know........

Hey Luke survived, why can't DD?

sixthman
07-13-2005, 03:18 AM
But what it ultimately boils down to is this: Granger's presence actually means I'm looking forward to Ron's next disruptions, so Danny can get even more court time to develop into a Grade A Prime NBA forward. :)

Yikes!

MagicRat
07-13-2005, 10:50 AM
Hey Luke survived, why can't DD?

I'm sure he'll survive. I don't know if he'll be able to get such a swell new hand, though........

Diamond Dave
07-13-2005, 10:53 AM
Sorry. Iocaine.

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The first is "Never get involved in an Artest poll thread with Sassan." But only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against your father when death is on the line."

I am no one to be trifled with, that is all you ever need know........

In what way is death on the line? Halo 2? Cause if it is he'll take a major *** whooping before he's able to kill me. :devil:

MagicRat
07-13-2005, 11:20 AM
In what way is death on the line? Halo 2? Cause if it is he'll take a major *** whooping before he's able to kill me. :devil:

If I'm sticking with the movie/book, then it's a battle of wits to the death. And if he has Iocaine powder and you have Idocaine powder you're going to die laughing.......

Diamond Dave
07-13-2005, 11:37 AM
If I'm sticking with the movie/book, then it's a battle of wits to the death. And if he has Iocaine powder and you have Idocaine powder you're going to die laughing.......

Not necessarily, as in my time as a Dread Pirate of the High Seas I have built up an immunity to both Iocaine and Idocaine powder.

Plus, he's just stalling now.

Doug
07-13-2005, 12:09 PM
I have built up an immunity to both Iocaine and Idocaine powder.


Inconceivable!

MagicRat
07-13-2005, 12:19 PM
Inconceivable!

You keep using that word -- I do not think it means what you think it means.

Kegboy
07-13-2005, 12:33 PM
My only question is, Hicks spends all his time on this board. When did he ever find the time to shoot another movie with his girlfriend?

I'm surprised they haven't had a press conference saying they got engaged on the Eifel tower yet.

Hicks
07-13-2005, 12:57 PM
' the hell did I get involved in this one?

Kegboy
07-13-2005, 12:59 PM
' the hell did I get involved in this one?

Since the movie was being discussed, I thought it was a good time to discuss Rat's sig. :-p

Suaveness
07-13-2005, 01:00 PM
' the hell did I get involved in this one?

Well, Keg just happened to pick you. He's taking his anger on the world because he finally realized that Brezec really does suck :-o

Kegboy
07-13-2005, 01:03 PM
Well, Keg just happened to pick you. He's taking his anger on the world because he finally realized that Brezec really does suck :-o

:lol2:

And yes, I'm laughing at you, you poor little JJ lover, you.

Suaveness
07-13-2005, 01:05 PM
:lol2:

And yes, I'm laughing at you, you poor little JJ lover, you.

Hey, I'm not a JJ lover, but I do like his game

You won't be laughing much though when PB reverts back to his true self this year

And I won't be there to console you :-p

canyoufeelit
07-13-2005, 02:01 PM
And in a season or three, when Danny Granger developes into a top-five SF and Ron has faded into obscurity, these conversations will finally stop.

Beast, Sixthman: I wish I could agree with you, but I just can't. I've had it. I was this close (holding fingers almost together) to cancelling my tickets because of this clown, because my sentiments are almost identical to Peck's. But I'm still a Pacers fan.

But what it ultimately boils down to is this: Granger's presence actually means I'm looking forward to Ron's next disruptions, so Danny can get even more court time to develop into a Grade A Prime NBA forward. :)

Nice! Bringing the heat!

Hicks
07-13-2005, 03:14 PM
Time for an update:

Brad Miller (http://www.pacersdigest.com/bradmiller.html)

Suaveness
07-13-2005, 03:16 PM
:rolleyes:



:laugh:

MagicRat
07-13-2005, 03:21 PM
Time for an update:

Brad Miller (http://www.pacersdigest.com/bradmiller.html)

Sweet.

Be on the lookout for Part Three in the True Love Series, Say Anything.......

Hicks
07-13-2005, 03:32 PM
You could always do an "I Love Lucy" logo with 'Bradly'.

Maybe a DVD cover of "70 Million Dollar Baby" ;)

Jermaniac
07-13-2005, 05:37 PM
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2208/532329644am.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=532329644am.jpg)

Picture of Donnie and Ron a WNBA. Posted this here cause its a topic about Ron. Okay continue with the hate.

Kegboy
07-13-2005, 06:49 PM
Time for an update:

Brad Miller (http://www.pacersdigest.com/bradmiller.html)

:shakehead

Hicks, you sad, sad, little man.

Guys, I think we need to have some kind of intervention at the party.

rabid
07-13-2005, 08:28 PM
Time for an update:

Brad Miller (http://www.pacersdigest.com/bradmiller.html)

:rotflmao:

which reminds me: (from right before the trade)...
http://mypage.iu.edu/~gweldon/pacers/brad.html

ChicagoJ
12-13-2005, 11:22 AM
I apologize for all the purple in here. Really, I do. Just breeze past it because there is an interesting discussion in here from a few months ago about what would qualify as "the final straw". A phrase DW used the other day, as well.

Anywhooo.... I wanted to bump this and make the following comment:

Ron's public trade demands were actually the perfect "final straw" for Pacers fans. Just about everyone is united now in the fact that Ron must go.

There's no longer a silly misconception about getting Ron's "Fair Market Value". The Pacers will take the best offer they can get and realize any players they pick up while subtracting Ron from the team are simply a bonus.

Even though I've been right about Ron all along - because I've got a lot of respect for a number of my PD friends (or as LA likes to call us, my imaginary friends) on the pro-Artest side of the aisle so I'm not really trying to gloat about being right. So UB, Suaveness, Beast, sixthman, hoop, Ragnar, and just about everyone else that's been pro-Artest on here, please ignore the next couple of paragraphs. They aren't for you...



and this is really my whole issue....somehow the issue has turned into which side will be right and which side will be wrong about artest....

and for the life of me i dont understand that....

The issue was never which side will be right about Artest. There was enough evidence to reach the right answer at many times in the past. It was clear to a number of us a long time ago that some type of divorce, without a championship, would be the ultimate conclusion to the Ron Artest era.

And for those of us that love the Pacers more than any of the individual players on the Pacers (something I came to terms with in September 1992 when Chuck went to Minnesota), this entire Ron Artest era has been a nightmare, and it *is* a releif that its finally over. But you never were capable of listening with reason, so I'll just say it this way: I was right, and you were wrong. :tongue:

Harmonica
12-13-2005, 11:37 AM
But you never were capable of listening with reason, so I'll just say it this way: I was right, and you were wrong. :tongue:

:laugh:

You can find more of foretaz's comments about Ron on IndyStar. I haven't looked in a couple of days, but what I did read made me chuckle to myself. Especially his reworking of the Mike Wells interview. It's a must read.