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owl
07-10-2005, 09:40 AM
Would anyone be interested in seeing Kwame Brown on the Pacers?
Rumour has it the Pacers are interested. Fred Jones for Kwame?
I think I would take the risk of Brown not panning out but you never know.

owl

owl
07-10-2005, 09:45 AM
Washington is looking for a shooting guard. Would Fred Jones be enough to
pry Kwame away from Washington?

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Cap is hindering front-line needs
Isiah's desire for a shot-blocker will be difficult to fulfill with the current crop of free agents


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BY GREG LOGAN
STAFF WRITER

July 10, 2005

Isiah Thomas scored a draft- night coup when he took advantage of a contractual snag in the Kurt Thomas-for-Quentin Richardson trade to pick up Phoenix's first-round pick and add pocket rocket point guard Nate Robinson to promising big men Channing Frye and David Lee.

But the team president's stated goal of adding a shot-blocking big man in the free-agent market might be difficult to achieve for the Knicks, whose $120.8-million payroll for next season is far beyond the projected salary cap of $48 million. They would have to do a sign-and-trade to offer more than the mid-level cap exception of $5.1 million to the top prospects, with the possible exception of unrestricted free agents Jerome James and Steven Hunter.









Chicago's Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler, Philadelphia's Samuel Dalembert and Washington's Kwame Brown are restricted free agents whose teams have the right to match any offer. Of those, only Brown is on the trading block, but one Eastern Conference personnel expert said the Wizards want a starting shooting guard to replace Larry Hughes, who signed with Cleveland.

In talking with the Knicks, they have made it clear they are interested in Richardson, not Jamal Crawford, the starting two-guard last season. Although third-year power forward Mike Sweetney is available, the Wizards need more for the 6-11 Brown, who is only 23 and would project as the Knicks' starting center despite coming off an injury-plagued season.

Another possibility is Memphis power forward Stromile Swift, who is only 6-9 but is a leaper who averaged 1.53 blocks last season. He visited the Knicks but figures to get more than the mid-level from teams with more cap flexibility than the Knicks.

If the Knicks go the sign-and-trade route for another power forward, Boston's Antoine Walker might be the top target. Celtics president Danny Ainge recently said it's unlikely he would trade Walker to a division rival, but agent Mark Bartelstein suggested Boston's youth movement could force Ainge's hand.

"Isiah and I have talked, and they definitely have the door open," Bartelstein said. "It's complicated to do a sign-and-trade, but the Knicks are the biggest stage, and I know Antoine would thrive there. I think there's intense interest, and he loves to be under the lights."

Ainge traded Walker to Dallas two years ago but reacquired him from Atlanta last season, and he led the Celtics to the Atlantic Division title.

"We've got to see what happens with Danny," Bartelstein said. "He wants to play the young guys, and they're not going to play if he signs Antoine ... Danny has a decision to make. A number of teams are interested in Antoine - the Knicks, Houston, Seattle, Sacramento, Indiana, the Clippers. He's the most talented free agent on the market."

Walker is no shot-blocker, but he would offset the rebounding and shooting the Knicks lost when they traded Kurt Thomas.

If Isiah Thomas can add James or Hunter on the cheap, it would improve the Knicks' defensive presence in the middle. James started 80 games for Seattle and averaged 1.39 blocks but played only 16 minutes a game and didn't produce much until the playoffs. The 7-foot Hunter averaged 1.34 blocks in just 13 minutes a game for Phoenix, but he's 80 pounds lighter than the 7-1, 300-pound James.

Notes&quotes: According to Sports Illustrated's website, Detroit owner Bill Davidson is likely to fire Larry Brown, which would make him available to coach the Knicks if he resolves his health issues.

diamonddave00
07-10-2005, 11:24 AM
I'd take a chance on Kwame Brown probably take Fred Jones and maybe Scot Pollard , I imagine Kwame will want more than Fred's $2.3 mil salary. With the new CBA contracts will be shorter in length.

While Brown .has been a disapointmnt with the Wizards there was a lot of pressure on him as the #1 pick overall in the draft and being picked by MJ.

But Kwame Brown is still only 23. Fred Jones is already 26 . Kwame , has the tools to become a very good pf/c . He has Jermaine O'Neal as the model he say he wants to copy as a player. What better chance to use JO as a measuring stick than to play against him in practice and with him on the court ? In 2003-04 as a 21 year old until March , Kwame averaged 10.9 ppg and 7.4 rpg , very solid numbers for his age and limited experience. Last summer he had surgey , came back and struggled all season to find his role with the Wizards. Ending with his suspension during the playoffs.

At 23 , he is too young to consider a total bust. Unlike Bender , his 2003-04 season showed he can produce when given consistant minutes. Kwame has more NBA ready total game than any Pacer bigman not named Jermaine. I know most on here will not agree on that , but its my opinion.

Fred Jones while a good player is already 26 . He is also entering his last year of his contract. With Stephen Jackson now playing sg 34+ minutes a night , Fred will want more minutes than 14-20 a night in the last year of his contract. At 6'2 Fred will forever be an undersized sg , with no time to play and being a free agent after the season ,he'll want time and money to stay here.

If we could acquire Brown with a new contract (shorter termed with new CBA) a still young 23 ,former #1 overall opick for Fred Jones and Pollard's contract to me you do it . Brown's upside is far greater than Fred's will be here in limited minutes.

Mourning
07-10-2005, 12:02 PM
IF Freddie and Pollard and say a future 2nd rounder would do it... then I'm all for it. However that DOES mean we are going to need another back up SG. AJ can play limited minutes there and who knows Granger or JJ could play a little there too. But, what are we going to do IF SJax goes down a month or more with an injury?

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

diamonddave00
07-10-2005, 12:21 PM
We have heard little hints Jalen Rose could end up here if waived. Could it be Larry and Donnie have already been considering that and are seeing Jalen as a backup sf/sg/pg here???

Also think at worse if we dealt Fred Jones , and Stephen got hurt we could move Ron Artest to sg for awhile. That would mean Granger and James Jones playing a lot of sf.

Artest is not the ideal sg but he could play there for awhile.

Kwame Brown to me is player who is not ready for fulltime starter pressure but a player who is only 23 , and has skills could blossom quickly in the right surroundings(winning team, low expectations , young experienced vets). I'm sorry I'm in the group that feels Fred Jones will ever be anything but a part time player here .

But with the Wizards he'd get a chance to play. To me his limited playing time here will turn into another Al Harrington situation. With Fred a free agent after this season I'm sure he's gone to greener pastures.

owl
07-10-2005, 01:41 PM
I would go for a trade like this as I believe Kwame could help more than Fred
ultimately. Plus we need a replacement for Croshere and Kwame could easily
fill that bill. Would it not be interesting if we released Croshere and we picked
up a released Jalen. That would limit the sting of still having to pay Croshere's
salary. Someone else would be paying Jalens. Something is going to happen in this off season. You can just feel it. Hmmm, that could just be gas : 0


owl

Ultimate Frisbee
07-10-2005, 02:21 PM
I'd take him... especially over Walker..

Maybe we can swing a Bender/Jones trade for him....

Potential for potential...

Jermaniac
07-10-2005, 02:26 PM
I'm a big fan of Fred's but I would give him up for Kwame. When we traded for JO people said why did we do that, JO hasnt proven anything. Well we can have another JO on our hands with Kwame. He would give us alot of help, if not starting at the 5 he could at least back up JO and give us scoring in the paint once JO is out.

Unclebuck
07-10-2005, 03:08 PM
If some of you question the Pacers mental toughness, just wait because Kwame is very weak mentally, about as weak as it gets.

I really like Fred Jones and I think he is a handy player to have around. But I would not be true to my principles if I did not want Fred traded for Kwame. Kwame has too much talent not to take the chance

pacerwaala
07-10-2005, 04:49 PM
I posted the below in the otehr thread but it is more relevant here -

I am convinced. Donnie shops at the neighbour hood Goodwill store for bargains. I would not mind trading Freddie for Kwame. This guy has the physical tools and hopefully a change of scenery(the successful Pacers franchise) will definitely shore up his mental strength. Even if it does not pan out, we have not lost much. Freddie Jones is good but will never be a star in this league.

Tim
07-10-2005, 07:36 PM
Unless Washington doesn't wake up and realize they are about to lose a young big man, Kwame is going to NY if Isiah can hold onto his MLE.

I have only one reason I think this will happen, Isiah and Kwame need each other. They both need an immediate positive turn of events. If Kwame signs the shortest MLE contract available and does well, he could possibly make up for it later with earnings outside of basketball.

For Isiah, he as the slim chance of losing his anti-christ rep. A slim chance.

With the loss of Hughes I would think the Wiz would be willing to kiss and make up, Kwame does have talent, on a good day he looks like the second coming of Jermaine.

sweabs
07-10-2005, 10:26 PM
I think you definitely make an offer for Kwame.

We, of all people, should know how a change of scenery can help someone. Kwame has all the athletic ability and god-given physical attributes to be something special. He has proven that he can be a force in this league from time to time.

I think he needs to be surrounded by coaching, staff, and players who will be a positive influence on him; who push him to his limits, make sure he works hard, and forces him to play up to his potential. And of course, who better to be the lead-mentor than Jermaine?

As for Freddy, I like UB's mode of thinking. He's a great guy to have on your team...but you just can't pass on an opportunity to get a #1 draft pick like Kwame.

Sollozzo
07-11-2005, 01:52 AM
I'd take a chance on Kwame Brown probably take Fred Jones and maybe Scot Pollard , I imagine Kwame will want more than Fred's $2.3 mil salary. With the new CBA contracts will be shorter in length.

While Brown .has been a disapointmnt with the Wizards there was a lot of pressure on him as the #1 pick overall in the draft and being picked by MJ.

But Kwame Brown is still only 23. Fred Jones is already 26 . Kwame , has the tools to become a very good pf/c . He has Jermaine O'Neal as the model he say he wants to copy as a player. What better chance to use JO as a measuring stick than to play against him in practice and with him on the court ? In 2003-04 as a 21 year old until March , Kwame averaged 10.9 ppg and 7.4 rpg , very solid numbers for his age and limited experience. Last summer he had surgey , came back and struggled all season to find his role with the Wizards. Ending with his suspension during the playoffs.

At 23 , he is too young to consider a total bust. Unlike Bender , his 2003-04 season showed he can produce when given consistant minutes. Kwame has more NBA ready total game than any Pacer bigman not named Jermaine. I know most on here will not agree on that , but its my opinion.

Fred Jones while a good player is already 26 . He is also entering his last year of his contract. With Stephen Jackson now playing sg 34+ minutes a night , Fred will want more minutes than 14-20 a night in the last year of his contract. At 6'2 Fred will forever be an undersized sg , with no time to play and being a free agent after the season ,he'll want time and money to stay here.

If we could acquire Brown with a new contract (shorter termed with new CBA) a still young 23 ,former #1 overall opick for Fred Jones and Pollard's contract to me you do it . Brown's upside is far greater than Fred's will be here in limited minutes.

When you said that Fred Jones was 26, I couldn't believe it. I would have guessed that Fred was about 24. It was hard to believe he was already 26. But you are indeed correct as his birthday is 3/11/79. So at the end of next season, Fred will already be a 27 years old.

I've said it many times, Fred Jones is a decent player to have, but backup guards like him are a dime a dozen. If things stay the same, Fred Jones will never be a starter here. Even if we made a move, it would probably produce a better perimeter player, and Jones would still not start. The Pacers wouldn't have much trouble finding a backup guard like Jones.

Like Unclebuck said, Kwame is extremely weak mentally. But I agree with him, he'd definitely be worth it for Fred Jones. Kwame has alot of potential, he's always reminded me of a young JO. I think he just needs some time.

Kwame's just played 4 years. JO's first 4 years were in Porland, where he didn't make a whole lot of noise either. Sure, Kwame has had alot of time to try and produce, while JO was stuck on the bench behind Wallace, Grant, and Kemp. I think Kwame will pan out. He's only 23..

Peck
07-11-2005, 02:55 AM
Um, guys....where the hell will we play Brown if he gets here?

He is a powerforward, Power being in question.

Jermaine O'Neal is a powerforward, yes he can play some center but he doesn't like to & he isn't as affective there.

J.O. blossomed in Indiana because he was the only low post option we had, period. There is no way in hell J.O. will take a back seat to let Kwame Brown grow.

There are not enough balls on the court for a lineup of Artest, Tinsely, Jackson, Brown & O'Neal.

No, like Tim said it really would be in Browns best interest to go to N.Y. I mean I have nothing for or against him but I just don't see where he fits here at all.

Unclebuck
07-11-2005, 08:31 AM
Peck, I don't think anyone would argue with you, but if the Pacers can trade Fred for Kwame you have to make the trade and worry about the stuff you mention later.

I think there is very little if any chance of the Pacers acquiring Kwame, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

The Wizard will gt better offers than Fred

Hicks
07-11-2005, 10:17 AM
I'd make Kwame the backup PF/C.

Zesty
07-11-2005, 10:34 AM
Me too, Hicks. Detroit seems to be doing just fine playing a PF at the C position. If your front line is good enough, it makes up for it.

Kegboy
07-11-2005, 11:48 AM
Um, guys....where the hell will we play Brown if he gets here?

He is a powerforward, Power being in question.

Jermaine O'Neal is a powerforward, yes he can play some center but he doesn't like to & he isn't as affective there.

J.O. blossomed in Indiana because he was the only low post option we had, period. There is no way in hell J.O. will take a back seat to let Kwame Brown grow.

There are not enough balls on the court for a lineup of Artest, Tinsely, Jackson, Brown & O'Neal.

No, like Tim said it really would be in Browns best interest to go to N.Y. I mean I have nothing for or against him but I just don't see where he fits here at all.

Peck, you would have taken Sam Bowie over Jordan, too, right?

beast23
07-11-2005, 11:48 AM
I'm with Peck on this one.

Harrison has shown more than enough to me to indicate that he is deserving of the minutes that he will most certainly receive this season. And Kwame is by no means significantly better than Harrison. Therefore, why would you want to acquire Kwame at the possible expense to Harrison's development and possibly to his psyche as well?

I believe that Freddie is more than most of you are giving him credit for. At his peak, Freddie was hitting the perimeter shot consistently and was using his ability to drive to keep his defender away from him so that he could easily get the perimeter shot as well. He is also one of our better defenders.

I agree that Freddie will likely never be a starter for the Pacers. But he is hardly a dime a dozen player. What other backups are available right now that have his athleticism and particularly his ability to defend? I would anticipate Fred reacquiring the level of play he had prior to his injury.

That being said, you would always trade a small for a big any day of the week. But not with Harrison already waiting in the wings.

I say "No" to Kwame Brown.

Diesel
07-11-2005, 02:14 PM
I'm with Peck on this one.

Harrison has shown more than enough to me to indicate that he is deserving of the minutes that he will most certainly receive this season. And Kwame is by no means significantly better than Harrison. Therefore, why would you want to acquire Kwame at the possible expense to Harrison's development and possibly to his psyche as well?

I believe that Freddie is more than most of you are giving him credit for. At his peak, Freddie was hitting the perimeter shot consistently and was using his ability to drive to keep his defender away from him so that he could easily get the perimeter shot as well. He is also one of our better defenders.

I agree that Freddie will likely never be a starter for the Pacers. But he is hardly a dime a dozen player. What other backups are available right now that have his athleticism and particularly his ability to defend? I would anticipate Fred reacquiring the level of play he had prior to his injury.

That being said, you would always trade a small for a big any day of the week. But not with Harrison already waiting in the wings.

I say "No" to Kwame Brown.


I'll say this with all the injury problems we had last year with our big guys the more depth we have the better. They all missed time last year. This roster also doesn't have anybody on our bench that is a low post scorer.We need somebody who can come in and give us 15 solid minutes a night and give us a offensive presence down low when Jermiane is on the bench. Adding Kwame would solve that problem and has the potential to grow into a very good player.

I like Fred but lets face it Hes not going to get a ton of time this year if were healthy. Steven Jackson is starting and I expect to see more of Artest at the two and Granger at the three position and if Walsh wants to resign James Jones then it really makes sense to trade somebody and shore up a weakness.

Diamond Dave
07-11-2005, 02:30 PM
Peck, you would have taken Sam Bowie over Jordan, too, right?

The ONLY similarity in that comparison is Sam Bowie and Kwame Brown both being busts.:rolleyes:

CableKC
07-11-2005, 03:06 PM
A Freddie ( maybe Pollard ) deal for Kwame would be great.......I would take Kwame over Croshere ANYDAY....heck...I would take Kwame's right foot over Croshere anyday.....but switching GM hats.....for the Wiz....is it a good idea to trade Big for Small?

Its not like the Wizards have an abundant # of Big Men that they can part with Kwame and get a Guard in return.

Young
07-11-2005, 03:10 PM
Let some other GM waste there money on Kwame.

I'd pay John Edwards 6 million before I would Kwame....the guy just has a questionable desire, IMO.

sweabs
07-11-2005, 04:37 PM
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I've read a lot of people lately suggesting the play of Ron at the 2-spot instead of small forward. All this in an effort to find Granger time?

I don't know...I just don't like Ronnie at the shooting guard at all. I think Granger will get his time...they don't need to go making huge changes to fit Granger into the grand scheme of things.

Diesel
07-11-2005, 04:44 PM
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I've read a lot of people lately suggesting the play of Ron at the 2-spot instead of small forward. All this in an effort to find Granger time?

I don't know...I just don't like Ronnie at the shooting guard at all. I think Granger will get his time...they don't need to go making huge changes to fit Granger into the grand scheme of things.

From a defensive standpoint Ron Artest can guard most twos in the league. Artest can definetly play that position.The knock has been that hes not a good enough shooter to play there but if continues to progress like we have seen in that area I see know reason why he can't play 10-12 minutes a night there so we can granger more time. I also think Carlisle will love the way Granger defends your going to see Carlisle try his best to get them both in at the same time playing the wing position.

sweabs
07-11-2005, 04:46 PM
From a defensive standpoint Ron Artest can guard most twos in the league. Artest can definetly play that position.The knock has been that hes not a good enough shooter to play there but if continues to progress like we have seen in that area I see know reason why he can't play 10-12 minutes a night there so we can granger more time. I also think Carlisle will love the way Granger defends your going to see Carlisle try his best to get them both in at the same time playing the wing position.

Just to clarify, I have NO problem from the defensive standpoint. Hell, Ronnie can guard at the 1, 2, 3, or 4 for all I care.

blanket
07-11-2005, 05:28 PM
From today's Stein Line:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2105306&num=2


The rough part, of course, was the free-agent defection of Larry Hughes. The Wiz, though, think they can parlay a Kwame Brown sign-and-trade into a decent Hughes replacement who won't be as expensive.

Does anyone know what other offers the Wiz have received for Kwame? Seems like Fred fits their requirements for a decent, inexpensive shooting guard replacement...

purdue101
07-11-2005, 06:04 PM
i think they have been offerred posey from memphis and butler from LA. thing is that both those guys are really suited for SF and washington already has a couple young guys there in hayes & jefferies. IMO, hayes is better suited for SG than either butler or posey.

i think if LB wants kwame bad enough, we can get him. kwame can play center and has loads of potential, just like JO in his portland days. he just needs to change of scenary....washington has been horrible to him. i can't think of a better place than here.

pollard, freddie, and a pick would be a nice package. the wiz could then get another quality player in feb. with pollard's contract. if we get sarunas i would even throw in AJ....i know the wizard's are looking for more depth at pg.

aceace
07-11-2005, 06:14 PM
From a defensive standpoint Ron Artest can guard most twos in the league. Artest can definetly play that position.The knock has been that hes not a good enough shooter to play there but if continues to progress like we have seen in that area I see know reason why he can't play 10-12 minutes a night there so we can granger more time. I also think Carlisle will love the way Granger defends your going to see Carlisle try his best to get them both in at the same time playing the wing position.
Artest could guard a 7'10" 400 pound guy, a 6' lightening quick PG or the pope and do a super job.

Kegboy
07-11-2005, 06:21 PM
The ONLY similarity in that comparison is Sam Bowie and Kwame Brown both being busts.:rolleyes:

No, I'm referring to the fact that, once again, he's arguing that there's no point in a player being too good, because we already have talent at that position.

CableKC
07-11-2005, 06:44 PM
Artest could guard a 7'10" 400 pound guy, a 6' lightening quick PG or the pope and do a super job.

I don't konw if Artest can guard the new Pope. He could have guarded John Paul II....but with the new Pope......he has a wicked quick step to the hoop that can blow by Artest and can shoot the 3 from anywhere on the court.

Why do you think the Vatican picked him to be the new Pope? For Religious reasons? Nah......its for his wicked fadeaway 3pt shot.

bmac
07-11-2005, 07:38 PM
I don't konw if Artest can guard the new Pope. He could have guarded John Paul II....but with the new Pope......he has a wicked quick step to the hoop that can blow by Artest and can shoot the 3 from anywhere on the court.

Why do you think the Vatican picked him to be the new Pope? For Religious reasons? Nah......its for his wicked fadeaway 3pt shot.

Wicked?? You ever seen Our Lady Of Guadalupe's interior defense? It's almost like she can materialize out of thin air and........I don't know........just appear there to swat all balls away. Scary good..

aceace
07-11-2005, 07:55 PM
I don't konw if Artest can guard the new Pope. He could have guarded John Paul II....but with the new Pope......he has a wicked quick step to the hoop that can blow by Artest and can shoot the 3 from anywhere on the court.

Why do you think the Vatican picked him to be the new Pope? For Religious reasons? Nah......its for his wicked fadeaway 3pt shot.
I'd take Reggie in a game of horse against him.....