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View Full Version : Is KG secretly on the market?



Hicks
07-05-2005, 03:21 PM
http://www2.indystar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111285


Again, take it for what its worth (from a supposed insider on realgm)

----
It's time the truth of what has been going on behind the scenes in the NBA was revealed. I have a friend who is relatively high up in the Staples Center who has close connections to the Lakers and the NBA. Last year if you recall my thread, "Shaq to Miami is a done deal" which few believed at the time. Believe me or don't, it makes no difference. There is a bidding war going on for Kevin Garnett.

1. After the last season, Garnett reached his breaking point. Kevin Garnett has demanded one of two things in Minnesota: A team that can contend for the forseeable future with no more major turnover, or he wants out. After seeing how Shaq was able to dictate where and with who he would play when he was traded and his success that followed, Garnett believes he can do something similar. This is the reason you see teams making strange moves, like the Lakers drafting Bynum and the Knicks trading for Q-Rich. They are stocking on talent to try to deal for Garnett. This is the main reason why the rumor mill has been quiet, the entire league is waiting to see what happens with Garnett.

2. After the past season, Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor was fed up with pouring money into a franchise that has had to nothing but bad luck. First the Joe Smith fiasco, and now the Cassell/Sprewell ordeal. After a decade of trying to get somewhere with Garnett, the cap restraints and lack of roster manueverability has led him to believe that it's time to start over while Garnett can still fetch something decent in return as he is in his prime. He also wants to make a move for the Vikings and is looking to save money where he can for his bid/running of the team.

3. Garnett's initial list of teams he would be content with was: Cleveland, New York, Lakers, Chicago, Philadelphia. Minnesota contacted these teams first so people assumed this was his list. Garnett is appreciative of the Wolves organization and thus never made his demands public, because he wants to give the Wolves a chance to either fix the situation, or get a good deal for him. The majority of the teams are in the East, because the Wolves would rather have Garnett there for obvious reasons. Garnett's teams all have one major thing in common: They are not in a winning situation and he would not necessarily be percieved as going to a ready-made "easy" ring.

Minnesota is demanding: Young talent, draft picks, and cap flexibility. Along with Garnett, whichever team takes him has to take either Hudson, Szczerbiak, or both of them as well because of their contracts.

Cleveland: They are not banking on Garnett because they don't necessarily have the assets to get a deal done. The players they get in free agency could however be the core of a package for him. Don't know much about what's going on here.

New York: Garnett would love to play with Marbury again in the bright lights of NY. New York has some talent and expiring deals(Crawford, Frye, Thomas etc.) and could retain some solid players around Marbury and Garnett. Word has it that Minnesota tried to counter by offering a deal for Marbury but Isiah felt they had invested too much into him to give him away for what the Wolves were offering(Expiring deals, and/or supposedly Wally). Talks have cooled here somewhat according to my friend because of the counter proposals.

Chicago: Garnett went to high school here and likes the talent. Minnesota supposedly is demanding one of their big men(Curry or Chandler re-signed), Deng or Niocini, and one of their guards(Hinrich or Gordon) along with some combination of picks. Chicago would love to get Garnett like everyone else, but Garnett is 29 and they are hedging on whether they want to give up so much young talent for him.

Philadelphia. Iverson and a big market. Philly has some interesting peices(Dalembert and Iggy) but I don't know much about what has been discussed with them.

Lakers: I know the most abou these discussions because my friend is most closely connected here. They are a West team but Garnett is pushing heavily for them along with NY and Chicago because he and Kobe want to play with each other(They like each others work ethic and passion for basketball, and Kobe feels KG is one of the few superstars that doesn't resent him because of how his career has gone). Wolves won't take Brian Grants contract. Lakers core package consists of Odom, Bynum, roleplayers with expiring deals(Mihm, George, Atkins etc.) and multiple future draft picks. They will not part with Butler if they have to give up Odom because many feel Butler is on the cusp of being an All-Star and has a good friendship and chemistry with Kobe. They also think Kobe, Butler, KG is a better fit than having Odom and KG on the same team. Again, problem is LA is in the West and McHale does not want to deal with LA, but supposedly the Lakers have talked with Minnesota's GM Stack directly. Word is Taylor overrode McHale because he just wants a good deal while making Garnett happy(Taylor and KG think highly of each other).

Recently, the Nets and Indiana(I think Bird and McHale's connection makes this a real possibility) have made pushes. Indiana is offering JO, Granger, some of their bigger deals to even salaries(Croshere, Bender etc.) and picks. Jersey is supposedly offering BOTH Jefferson and Carter, but people are not sure how Carter would respond to a situation where he might not be able to win in Minnesota without Garnett. I heard some things about Boston(Same situation as Chicago, contend with Pierce and Garnett but they would have to give up tons of their young talent) and Orlando(Minny demanded Dwight as the core of a package, Orlando said no.) but I don't think talks are serious there. Teams are supposedly getting impatient and while they have been quiet on this issue(to keep the hype down and negotiate in peace and good faith) info could start leaking soon with the draft over and FA beginning. I'm not sure any of the deals outside of the LA one are 100% accurate. Believe me or don't but the offseason is going to be CRAZY.


I found the RealGM link. Turns out it's referring to an Orlando board.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=391271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Interesting stuff, even if it's false (I'm not saying one way or the other).

foretaz
07-05-2005, 03:24 PM
lol...i wondered who was gonna post this...

Young
07-05-2005, 03:28 PM
If this is true I think that we would defentily be a real possaibilty because we could match salaries and talent fairly easily.

Damn KG would be awesome to have. But hey we were teased last summer with the possiabilty of TMac and nothing happened, so I doubt anything happens here.

Unclebuck
07-05-2005, 03:28 PM
Interesting.

How in the world can we trade Granger the Great, I thought he was going to be a supertstar.

In all seriousness, would I trade Granger and J.O. for Garnett. I don't know, maybe, depends if we are going to trade Artest.

Suaveness
07-05-2005, 03:28 PM
I would feel bad for JO and all, considering he cried when he signed his 7 year contract to stay here

Hicks
07-05-2005, 03:30 PM
JO, Bender, Pollard, and Granger for KG and Szczerbiak works.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 03:45 PM
JO, Bender, Pollard, and Granger for KG and Szczerbiak works.

this was the part of the article that lead me to bleive its full of it...

the odds of kg being traded seem slim.....the odds of kg and wally being traded to the same team are slim and none....

they have issues....kg is not gonna demand a trade and then end up on the same team as wally again....not gonna happen....

if we were gonna make this trade and another player was to be involved it would probably be hudson with aj going to the twoves....problem is we really dont have the draft picks they would be looking for....our first next year would be great...but i think they might have to have more than that....now if u involve another team that might have draft picks then u could take care of the wally thing as well...

Lord Helmet
07-05-2005, 03:59 PM
I would feel bad for JO and all, considering he cried when he signed his 7 year contract to stay here
Yeah. :( I don't really want to do it. I mean with all the excitment about Granger, I don't really want to just trade him.

But, I guess it would make our team better.

Hicks
07-05-2005, 04:18 PM
It doesn't have to be Szczerbiak. You could make it Hudson.

JO and KG also works 1 for 1.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 04:31 PM
It doesn't have to be Szczerbiak. You could make it Hudson.

JO and KG also works 1 for 1.

i could see something like jo, aj, granger and our number 1 next year for kg and hudson.....

and freddie might have to be thrown into the mix....

this deal would sure make it alot easier to sign jj...and saras too....

and might explain why we havent signed granger yet ;) ;)

Will Galen
07-05-2005, 04:45 PM
Bah Humbug! I don't like it. I would go for JO and any other combination as long as Artest, Granger, and Harrison are not included. Or take out JO and insert Artest in the deal, but Minny would never do that.

Actually I want a tweak not a major overhaul.

Pig Nash
07-05-2005, 04:47 PM
Technically it's not really an overhaul. It would just be upgrading our PF position.

SycamoreKen
07-05-2005, 04:55 PM
I've already commented on my feeings about trading for KG, do it. What I don't get is why KG would want to play with Marbury again. They had a chance to have something special years ago, but Marbury bailed out because he didn't want to play second banana to KG. That proved to me how high winning ranked on his scale of priorities.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 04:55 PM
jo is a great, great player....but for as great as he is....kg would probably be better in alot of the offense that the pacers like to run....his versatility would be very, very useful

SoupIsGood
07-05-2005, 04:56 PM
It would make our team better, but I wish we could keep Granger.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 04:57 PM
I've already commented on my feeings about trading for KG, do it. What I don't get is why KG would want to play with Marbury again. They had a chance to have something special years ago, but Marbury bailed out because he didn't want to play second banana to KG. That proved to me how high winning ranked on his scale of priorities.

another reason why i think the author of this article is full of *****.....i think any real chance of garnett leaving ended when the wolves hired casey....but its something to talk about ;)

Will Galen
07-05-2005, 04:58 PM
Technically it's not really an overhaul. It would just be upgrading our PF position.

Okay, I can see that, but . . . nah I just don't like giving up Granger. Like Buck said, he could turn into a superstar.

I guess my real problem with it is giving up Granger. I've wanted the Pacers to get lucky and hit the motherlode for years. Like Miami with Wade. He was the 5th pick in the draft and pretty much overlooked and now he's almost as big of a superstar as Labron.

So here the Pacers get really lucky and get a guy that should have been around the 5th pick and they ship him off before seeing what they have . . . NO, I don't want to do it.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 05:01 PM
ummm....kg is the mother load....

but id say ud probably have to take ur pick....granger or harrison is gonna be gone in a kg trade

Anthem
07-05-2005, 05:02 PM
JO and Granger for KG is a better deal than anything those other teams are offering.

Pig Nash
07-05-2005, 05:11 PM
agreed, much better.

aceace
07-05-2005, 05:13 PM
With Artest and Granger playing a full year next year I don't see us making this move. I see us buying out Cro and standing pat. We just need healthy players on the floor. Sprewell screwed Minn. up last year.

CableKC
07-05-2005, 05:15 PM
Unfortunately...if any of this is true....Minnesota is in the driver's seat when it comes to trading KG. If any team TRULY wants KG....they are going to have to part with more then they are willing to part with.

A straight up KG for JONeal deal won't work...cuz even I see it as being unfair for the TWolves. But JONeal and another starter ( Tinsley/SJax/Artest ) or 2 solid backup contributors ( Freddie/JJ/Foster/AJ ) for KG, Wallyworld and filler would probably make more sense. Either way...I don't see the Pacers giving up anything less then another starter or 2 solid backup players in exchange for KG.

( probably JONeal and Artest...cuz he is the 2nd most valuable piece to the Pacers....for KG, Wallyworld and filler to make everything work ).

Jermaniac
07-05-2005, 05:17 PM
I wouldnt do it

Will Galen
07-05-2005, 05:19 PM
ummm....kg is the mother load....

but id say ud probably have to take ur pick....granger or harrison is gonna be gone in a kg trade

Okay, I could do Harrison, I still have some doubts about him, short arms, maybe work ethic and injury problems, but I wouldn't like it. I like the future being as bright as the present. Right now with Harrison and Granger we look good for years, I don't want to trade either.

No, all I want to give up is one all star, and anyone else other than Granger and Harrison.

I'm repeating myself. Duh!

foretaz
07-05-2005, 05:19 PM
Unfortunately...if any of this is true....Minnesota is in the driver's seat when it comes to trading KG. If any team TRULY wants KG....they are going to have to part with more then they are willing to part with.

A straight up KG for JONeal deal won't work...cuz even I see it as being unfair for the TWolves. But JONeal and another starter ( Tinsley/SJax/Artest ) or 2 solid backup contributors ( Freddie/JJ/Foster/AJ ) for KG, Wallyworld and filler would probably make more sense. Either way...I don't see the Pacers giving up anything less then another starter or 2 solid backup players in exchange for KG.

( probably JONeal and Artest...cuz he is the 2nd most valuable piece to the Pacers....for KG, Wallyworld and filler to make everything work ).

as i said earlier....kg and wally wont end up on the same team in a trade....and for the very same reasons, if there is a trade, u wont have artest and jo end up on the same team either....

that being said....no way in hell the pacers trade jo and artest for anybody in the league....

stoudemire and nash....ok..maybe
stoudemire and johnson...ok maybe...
ok...so with phoenix they might....
but other than that....no chance....

Will Galen
07-05-2005, 05:21 PM
as i said earlier....kg and wally wont end up on the same team in a trade....and for the very same reasons, if there is a trade, u wont have artest and jo end up on the same team either....

that being said....no way in hell the pacers trade jo and artest for anybody in the league....

stoudemire and nash....ok..maybe
stoudemire and johnson...ok maybe...
ok...so with phoenix they might....
but other than that....no chance....


How about Shaq and Wade? I wouldn't do it but I could see the Pacers . . . maybe.

Shade
07-05-2005, 05:21 PM
I never pay much attention to these JO for _____ rumors because I can't see Larry/Donnie pulling the trigger. I just think they would see it as a PR nightmare if they jettisoned off JO, even for a player of KG's caliber.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 05:23 PM
How about Shaq and Wade?

i thought about that one.....no thank you....

shaqs too old.....two more seasons appears to be it for the big fella....

but it would be tempting to try and take the ring and run...

Will Galen
07-05-2005, 05:26 PM
JO is arguably the 3rd best PF in the league, especially if he plays like he did two years ago and how he started out this year. Remember the 55 points?

So, Minny would be getting a very good replacement. If they want more I would give it to them, but they wouldn't get any of my young guys. That's too much.

foretaz
07-05-2005, 05:30 PM
JO is arguably the 3rd best PF in the league, especially if he plays like he did two years ago and how he started out this year. Remember the 55 points?

So, Minny would be getting a very good replacement. If they want more I would give it to them, but they wouldn't get any of my young guys. That's too much.

alrighty then...we will tell them that its jo, pollard, freddie and aj plus our number 1 for kg and hudson.....and if they gotta problem with that...we will just tellem its not negotiable because Will said so...;) ;)

Will Galen
07-05-2005, 05:38 PM
alrighty then...we will tell them that its jo, pollard, freddie and aj plus our number 1 for kg and hudson.....and if they gotta problem with that...we will just tellem its not negotiable because Will said so...;) ;)

I like how you think! (grin)

Do the deal!

PacersFan
07-05-2005, 06:06 PM
If KG really wants to leave we could get away with just JO (and some filler if needed) because other than Duncan, JO is the next best PF in the game. If they had to ship KG off for someone, it would probably help to recieve quality in JO rather than quantity with other teams. Look how it turned out for LA by shipping off Shaq for quantity and not quality.

CableKC
07-05-2005, 06:06 PM
I never pay much attention to these JO for _____ rumors because I can't see Larry/Donnie pulling the trigger. I just think they would see it as a PR nightmare if they jettisoned off JO, even for a player of KG's caliber.

What kind of PR nightmare would there be?

IMHO....there are few players I wouldn't mind trading JONeal for and KG is one of them. I don't think it will be hard to convince other Pacer fans to accept that JONeal was traded for a player like KG. Both players are in their prime.

KG is arguably one of the top 2 dominant players at his respective position ( probably behind Duncan cuz of the lack of championship rings on his fingers ) but hasn't been surrounded by the type of talent that would take him deep into the playoffs.

JONeal is arguably one of the top 5 PF in the entire league ( behind Duncan, KG, and neck in neck with Stoudamire and Nowitzki depending on what qualities you feel that each player brings to its team ). Whereas JONeal has lead his team deep into the playoffs over the last couple of years but hasn't won it all as well.

If anything like this ever happened......which probably won't cuz the TWolves will probably ask for the moon and stars for KG......I would expect to see 1 of 2 trade scenarios for KG and WallyWorld:

1 ) JONeal, 1 of the remaining big 4 ( Tinsley/SJax/Artest ), 1 backup player that actually contributes ( pick 1 from Freddie, JJ, Granger or Foster ) and filler to make the salaries work.

2 ) JONeal, 2 of the backup players that actually contribute ( pick 2 from JJ, Freddie, Granger, AJ or Foster ), Pollard and filler.

Either way.....it will cost the Pacers a pretty penny to get a player like KG.

I know that it doesn't sound fair to us Pacer fans.....but when it come to getting players on the level of KG.....a trade actually has to make sense to Minnesota. None of this KG for JONeal and crap players ( like Bender or Croshere ). The Pacers would have to part with sometihng that they don't want to ......realistically....if the Pacers were in the driver seat....would you expect anything less then talented players in return for one of the most talented players in the league?

If the Pacers could make a trade without trading away Artest ( like KG/WallyWorld for JONeal/SJax and filler ), then I would do it. But I doubt that McHale wouldn't start off any negotiations with the Pacers without JONeal and Artest as part of the deal.

Harmonica
07-05-2005, 06:16 PM
I never pay much attention to these JO for _____ rumors because I can't see Larry/Donnie pulling the trigger. I just think they would see it as a PR nightmare if they jettisoned off JO, even for a player of KG's caliber.

I don't see the PR nightmare you're envisioning. On top of that, I don't see Donnie and Larry being too concerned by any backlash that might come from this. And who would it come from? Kravitz and a handful of emotionally-attached fans? Also, JO hasn't really become the face of this franchise yet because Reggie was still here, so I think people would get over it pretty quickly.

owl
07-05-2005, 06:32 PM
i could see something like jo, aj, granger and our number 1 next year for kg and hudson.....

and freddie might have to be thrown into the mix....

this deal would sure make it alot easier to sign jj...and saras too....

and might explain why we havent signed granger yet
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++

You know this kind of trade sounds great but on the other hand what has
Garnett won in his 8years? JO is as close to a equal trade value the Wolves are going to get in the league. Duncan and Stoudemire are not available. JO probably is
neither but for the sake of discussion lets say that he is. JO plus any decent
player and a first rounder is all the Pacers will give up to get him IMHO.
Garnett has baggage. He is hard to play with, he has never won anything, not a single playoff series, and he has a huge "Shaq Like" salary hanging around his neck like an albatross. So maybe JO, JJ or Freddie and next years first or maybe Harrison. No Granger and no Artest period because those kinds of players are what win championships with their defense along with Garnetts
offense.

owl

Isaac
07-05-2005, 06:52 PM
Owl, Garnett has won a playoff series, Minny was in the WCF in 04 against L.A.

GO!!!!!
07-05-2005, 06:56 PM
It's a Toss up, who's more important to the franchise, I Think

Artest,Jax,Bender and a pick for KG is better then

O'neal, Jax, Bender

All depends but imagine a Diop,O'neal, KG, Granger, Tins starting five

I really want to keep Granger over anyone and prefer to keep Jermaine...

Artest All Star, Jax solid SG and Bender if healthy surely is good enough..

I imagine they want a C in the deal to so maybe give up Foster..

McKeyFan
07-05-2005, 07:10 PM
How bout KG and Hudson for JO and Tinsley?

Would we still have enough room to sign Sarunas?

CableKC
07-05-2005, 07:25 PM
I don't think that McHale would go for a JONeal/Tinsley for KG/Hudson deal.....even I think its a little unfair for the Wolves. Tinsley's durability affects his trade value too much. Besides....I think the TWolves would want to ship Wallyworld before they ship Hudson....his contract is bigger.

Also.....if Sarunas is asking for 5 mil....or even half of that...he is way too expensive.

Lord Helmet
07-05-2005, 07:47 PM
Don't trade JO! ;)

Harmonica
07-05-2005, 08:01 PM
JO is about as close as to fair value Minnesota is going to get for KG, so I don't think we would have to sell the farm to bring him here. Now, if we were willing to send Ron and Bender to Orlando for McGrady, I don't see why Donnie and Larry wouldn't consider a package involving JO and Ron. :zip:

Jermaniac
07-05-2005, 08:28 PM
Cause they are not stupid

canyoufeelit
07-05-2005, 08:44 PM
If you have an opportunity to get KG, you better take it. I would trade your entire team for Kevin Garnett.

GO!!!!!
07-05-2005, 09:27 PM
what's KG's net worth, I remember a interview with him and Starbury way back when in 97 or so and he said he wanted to become the first african american Billionare, does anyone know if he is even close to that Goal or is he to late..

I think the worst but yet most likly to happen is
NY deal Q-Rich,J Crawford and fillers for KG

Starbury & KG united in NY... what a winner...

Artest, jax and bender MAX !! is all I'm willing to land KG

does that mean we'll be no 1 in Salery Hell....

OnlyPacersLeft
07-05-2005, 10:13 PM
holy christ! Artest and KG on the same team!? WHOAAAAAAAA That would be insane.

OnlyPacersLeft
07-05-2005, 10:18 PM
I would feel bad for JO and all, considering he cried when he signed his 7 year contract to stay here
he did? I thought he cryed cause he found out Isiah wasn't going to be here. Then wanted out...

Bball
07-05-2005, 11:01 PM
JO is about as close as to fair value Minnesota is going to get for KG, so I don't think we would have to sell the farm to bring him here. Now, if we were willing to send Ron and Bender to Orlando for McGrady, I don't see why Donnie and Larry wouldn't consider a package involving JO and Ron. :zip:

Let me just disagree with this entirely.... Wait... I can't... I totally agree with this! ;)

As Harmonica is saying, JO has trade value. Minnesota can't expect some team to unload all their talent for KG. How many times have we watched other teams make trades and people shake their heads at how little one team or the other had to give up? Things like expiring/short term contracts have value in today's NBA. What we might call 'filler', or 'fodder', or even 'trash' as throw-ins with JO, Minny might see as getting an All star PF/C in return for KG as well as some salary relief and future flexibility (and maybe a gamble that a change of scenery and role might make some of that fodder... or even Bender... actually useful... ).

-Bball

BustedPants
07-05-2005, 11:04 PM
I would feel bad for JO and all, considering he cried when he signed his 7 year contract to stay here

Are you just joking here about feeling bad? I would be surprised if you were being sarcastic, only because Jermaine was a class act before and after he signed the contract. He is quoted as saying that even though he wouldn't have signed w/o Isiah, he understands it is a business. I don't believe that just because he got paid that he can't say how he feels to the extent he did. He wasn't yelling about feeding his kids or wanting traded... he said he would give the new coach a chance and see how he felt next offseason.

Harmonica
07-05-2005, 11:10 PM
Cause they are not stupid

You're right. Donnie and Larry were eager to trade Ron after last year's ECFs, but 11/19 made Larry turn to Donnie and say, "What were we thinking trying to trade this guy?!" To which Donnie replied, "Well, sometimes it takes something like this to make you come to your senses."

Jermaniac
07-05-2005, 11:32 PM
You're right. Donnie and Larry were eager to trade Ron after last year's ECFs, but 11/19 made them to turn to each other and say, "What were we thinking trying to trade this guy?!"Yup there you go.

Suaveness
07-06-2005, 12:01 AM
Are you just joking here about feeling bad? I would be surprised if you were being sarcastic, only because Jermaine was a class act before and after he signed the contract. He is quoted as saying that even though he wouldn't have signed w/o Isiah, he understands it is a business. I don't believe that just because he got paid that he can't say how he feels to the extent he did. He wasn't yelling about feeding his kids or wanting traded... he said he would give the new coach a chance and see how he felt next offseason.

I'm not too sure I understand what you are saying, but I wasn't joking. I am merely saying JO made a commitment to stay with Indiana, and the Pacers usually value something like that. It would be odd to trade JO after he talked about how much he loved the fact that Indiana gave him a chance to play.

Of course, I wouldn't mind getting KG. The man is just too good to pass up

pizza guy
07-06-2005, 12:30 AM
Send JO, JB/Cro, AJ for KG and Hudson. We might have to add in a pick. After listening to Larry and Rick talk about Granger the way they did (assuming it's not just the normal, 'we really wanted this guy' to make fans feel good), I doubt he'll be going anywhere. I think we really got a good deal when we sent Harrington to Hotlanta for SJax, and we shouldn't lose that. Artest isn't going anywhere. Harrison is solid, and IMO, will be solid for years. I suppose we could send Pollard over as well, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings. Although, he's a fun guy to have around, just because he's funny.

If KG is available, he's a major upgrade. I love JO, but c'mon, it's KG, he's an uber-stud. And, as one post mentioned, Artest and KG on the same team....

Kaufman
07-06-2005, 01:28 AM
Regarding "is KG secretly on the market?"...
Who really cares.
KG imo is a whiner and all I really hear him doing is crying about things. Look, I kinda see the KG t-wolves as very similar to Pacers teams of yester-year before Larry Brown showed up on the scene. You remember them as the Reggie/Chuck/Detlef teams. We had lots of firepower and reasonable role players, but just something missing with the chemistry. We lost year in and year out in the first round... remember Detroit (ironic how is was Detroit who Reg played his first and last ever playoff games against), the Celts twice, etc. KG has not been anything but a sour apple during the last few years in Minny. I know he's not been dealt the best hand of cards but neither was MJ when he had Rodman and the like, and he made it work. KG isn't the type of leader I think others think he is. I don't want him. JO seems to have some personality and doesn't seem as arrogant as KG. I hated that KG shoe commercial a few years ago where he basically alienated the rest of his team and made himself seem like a savior.

Just my two cents...

indytoad
07-06-2005, 01:41 AM
3. Garnett's initial list of teams he would be content with was: Cleveland, New York, Lakers, Chicago, Philadelphia.

I wonder how much say KG has in where he goes? From the list of teams he prefers, it sounds like a podunk backwater city like ours probably wouldn't appeal to him at all.

Or maybe it's just my inferiorty complex talking.

IndyToad
You've got options

foretaz
07-06-2005, 03:22 AM
jo is a phenomenal player....one of the very best in the league....and a great player to build a team around...and i, unlike some on here, have no real issues with jo....i think hes a phenomenal player with a great work ethic and attitude....yes, i wish he would ***** at the refs a bit less, but i think we will see him continue to mature....

that being said, if u are the pacers and have a chance to get kg....u do it...u dont even think twice about it...u do it now....u have so much depth that trading jo and whatever else still allows u to be the leading contender for the title....

kg is special...very very special....his contract is very similar to jo's...hes a warrior with an all around game that is second to noone in this league....hes a fierce competitor and would almost immediately endear himself to the fans and his new teammates with his desire to win.....having him and artest on the same team would just be amazing....there is very little doubt in my mind that without some major unforseen occurrence we would win the title....hes that good....

as far as him being arrogant and never having won anything....i dont see it....i just dont....he had one decent team...that was season before last....with cassell and spreewell being the best he had.....thats not saying alot....

u put him on a team with artest, jack, tinsley and dale starting....and a bench with foster, harrison, jj, freddie, and sarunas, and maybe his mini me....and thats a team that will win a couple of titles quite soon...

its rare that u have a chance to get one of the very few true superstars in this league....kg is one of those.....this team needs to trade some quantity for quality....this scenario would be almost too good to be true....

and it is....for all of these reasons, kg wont be traded....to say his owner has had it, well i just dont buy it.....his owner might be frustrated, but its not with kg...its with having such a great player and not being able to put the pieces together around him.....something the pacers would be able to do....

able
07-06-2005, 06:04 AM
I am sorry but I would not do this trade no matter what, I do rate KG very high, but I rate JO as high as.

In my opinion JO will be at the very same level over the years to come and I see no reason to get a player, no matter how good, that has not exactly proven to be the best "team" player and have excuses for every year they yet again thundered out of the playoffs.

No matter what you say about his team mates, but the fact that he wasn't able to convince them that winning was the best solution says a great deal to me, say what you want about his supporting cast, he could have done a lot more with them, compare their supporting cast to what JO had to play with (including his injury) this year and tell me that it shouldn't have been better.

Tremendous stats, but does he leave room for others?

me i say no thanks

naptownmenace
07-06-2005, 12:50 PM
JO is my favorite player but even so I can't deny that KG would probably be a better fit for this team. Not just a better player but a better fit for a Pacers team with Ron Artest on it.

I think that talent-wise JO isn't that far from Garnett. They both can dominate a game offensively, although JO is slightly better because he gets to the line more and has a slightly, ever so slightly better post up game. Both are excellent defenders with JO better at blocks and Garnett better at steals and post defense.

Garnett would be a better fit becuase of his passing ability. I think that he and Artest would flourish together. The thought of it is even too much to bear.

I'd be willing to trade JO with any combination of Pollard, Freddie, SJax, AJ, Bender, or Harrison. A JO + Bender + AJ for KG and Hudson or Wally deal would be ideal.

SamBear
07-06-2005, 01:10 PM
:laugh: Don't you guys know it's all a part of Phil Jackson's plan to get back at Kobe.... Kobe for KG... :devil:


;) Mark my words.... :-p

blanket
07-06-2005, 01:18 PM
The TWolves project to be under the cap next year. What they really ought to do is trade Wally's albatross contract to NY for picks and Tim Thomas' expiring contract, then rebuild around KG next summer with about $10-15M in cap space.

Kaufman
07-06-2005, 11:37 PM
Hi again, I just wanted to revisit some things about naptown menace & foretaz' post. You both said a lot of unsubstantiated things about KG's game, like empty statements in my opine. What makes KG that much better than JO?
You say he's a great player. What do all great players do? They make those around them play better.
Example:
Jordan. Made Pippen look better. Kukoc look better. Rodman look better. Longley. BJ Armstrong. These are all people who left after the break up and went on to sign substantial contracts in the wake of their dynasty, but really never did too much without MJ.
Lets name some others.
David Robinson/Tim Duncan. Supporting casts - Sean Elliott, Will Purdue, Mario Elie at one point, Avery Johnson, and the list goes on and on. Hell Manu Ginobili for that matter. Parker. Horry. Carl Herrera I think was there early in his career.
Larry Bird. He had all kinds of squirrels playing with him. Reggie Lewis, Kevin Gamble, Parish in his latter years, Joe Kleine,

Now come to KG. Minnesota seems like its a dearth where players come but never really leave that place with any improved skills. Nobody comes out of Minny with lucerative new deals. I mean, the last guy who left there with anything was Starbury and he was traded bc he was a jerk. But You can't make an argument that KG's not got something to work with. Wally wasn't a bad college player and he still has a pretty decent shot and all around game. Spree is Spree but he's a serviceable SG to say the least. When his head isn't in his *# he's an all-star. They've had serviceable centers. I personally think KG is the problem there. And if you think he's so great, why the heck is he available? Why would Minny want to get rid of him? If you think that he and Artest would be so great for the Pacers together, do you not think that McHale wouldn't have the same thought and want to acquire Artest from the Pacers? You know McHale's a pretty saavy guy...

SO that's my two cents.
I don't want KG.
KG is the Timberwolves. I mean, you don't trade the rock which your team is founded. And me, as a lifelong homer pacer fan, I don't want to have to get a Timberwolf to make my team champions. I think there is a certain pride you get in watching your team grow and be raised with one another. Its not fun when you trade your team's foundation for another team's foundation.
If you like KG that much, you should become a T-wolves fan.
I don't know if you get my point, and I'm not trying to come across as too blunt, but it's my two cents.

foretaz
07-06-2005, 11:53 PM
Hi again, I just wanted to revisit some things about naptown menace & foretaz' post. You both said a lot of unsubstantiated things about KG's game, like empty statements in my opine. What makes KG that much better than JO?
You say he's a great player. What do all great players do? They make those around them play better.
Example:
Jordan. Made Pippen look better. Kukoc look better. Rodman look better. Longley. BJ Armstrong. These are all people who left after the break up and went on to sign substantial contracts in the wake of their dynasty, but really never did too much without MJ.
Lets name some others.
David Robinson/Tim Duncan. Supporting casts - Sean Elliott, Will Purdue, Mario Elie at one point, Avery Johnson, and the list goes on and on. Hell Manu Ginobili for that matter. Parker. Horry. Carl Herrera I think was there early in his career.
Larry Bird. He had all kinds of squirrels playing with him. Reggie Lewis, Kevin Gamble, Parish in his latter years, Joe Kleine,

Now come to KG. Minnesota seems like its a dearth where players come but never really leave that place with any improved skills. Nobody comes out of Minny with lucerative new deals. I mean, the last guy who left there with anything was Starbury and he was traded bc he was a jerk. But You can't make an argument that KG's not got something to work with. Wally wasn't a bad college player and he still has a pretty decent shot and all around game. Spree is Spree but he's a serviceable SG to say the least. When his head isn't in his *# he's an all-star. They've had serviceable centers. I personally think KG is the problem there. And if you think he's so great, why the heck is he available? Why would Minny want to get rid of him? If you think that he and Artest would be so great for the Pacers together, do you not think that McHale wouldn't have the same thought and want to acquire Artest from the Pacers? You know McHale's a pretty saavy guy...

SO that's my two cents.
I don't want KG.
KG is the Timberwolves. I mean, you don't trade the rock which your team is founded. And me, as a lifelong homer pacer fan, I don't want to have to get a Timberwolf to make my team champions. I think there is a certain pride you get in watching your team grow and be raised with one another. Its not fun when you trade your team's foundation for another team's foundation.
If you like KG that much, you should become a T-wolves fan.
I don't know if you get my point, and I'm not trying to come across as too blunt, but it's my two cents.

yea...ur right...KG sux....who would possibly want an MVP on the team...

as far as mchale wanting artest alongside kg...whos he gonna trade????? cassell??? hassel??? seriously...did u look at their roster?? have u watched their roster over the years? kg has taken a team with not much of a supporting cast to the playoffs most years with this year being the exception in a much tougher western conference(top to bottom)....they made the western conference finals last year...but ur right...hes really not that good...anyone that has actually watched kg play for any period of time knows why....he simply does it all on both ends....and with a warriors effort...so please.....spare me...

theres a reason the guys that leave minny never get a great contract when they leave....its cause the nbdl and the cba dont pay *****....these guys SUCK

as far as watching ur team grow and being a twolves fan....u do realize jo was a blazer first right? artest a bull?? jack a spur, a hawk and a plethora of other places....aj a net...

its a business....u make trades....if my team can make a trade and get better...then im all for it....i could care a less where he came from....the euroleague, the nbdl, or another nba team.....and depending on the deal, a trade that brings kg here could very well make this team better....and its already a title contender, as it is...kg in this system is simply a better fit...he would be a better fit with artest....jo is a fantastic player....but dd, kg, ra, jack and tins would be a scary good team....

that being said...it wont happen...minny wont trade kg....so ur safe now...u can watch all the home grown boys..;)

pizza guy
07-07-2005, 12:38 AM
It really does seem too good to be true. I believe Peck once said, "every time I think of a front-line of JO, Ron, and Dale, I giggle like an 8-year-old girl." Y'all, KG, Ron, DD. Think about that. It's absolutely insane.

JO, AJ, Pollard, and a Pick for KG and Hudson.

Ludacris, but, oh, what a team!

Pig Nash
07-07-2005, 12:48 AM
It was Unclebuck.

GO!!!!!
07-07-2005, 12:49 AM
yea...ur right...KG sux....who would possibly want an MVP on the team...

as far as mchale wanting artest alongside kg...whos he gonna trade????? cassell??? hassel??? seriously...did u look at their roster?? have u watched their roster over the years? kg has taken a team with not much of a supporting cast to the playoffs most years with this year being the exception in a much tougher western conference(top to bottom)....they made the western conference finals last year...but ur right...hes really not that good...anyone that has actually watched kg play for any period of time knows why....he simply does it all on both ends....and with a warriors effort...so please.....spare me...

theres a reason the guys that leave minny never get a great contract when they leave....its cause the nbdl and the cba dont pay *****....these guys SUCK

as far as watching ur team grow and being a twolves fan....u do realize jo was a blazer first right? artest a bull?? jack a spur, a hawk and a plethora of other places....aj a net...

its a business....u make trades....if my team can make a trade and get better...then im all for it....i could care a less where he came from....the euroleague, the nbdl, or another nba team.....and depending on the deal, a trade that brings kg here could very well make this team better....and its already a title contender, as it is...kg in this system is simply a better fit...he would be a better fit with artest....jo is a fantastic player....but dd, kg, ra, jack and tins would be a scary good team....

that being said...it wont happen...minny wont trade kg....so ur safe now...u can watch all the home grown boys..;)

Man Talk about Over Kill. Leave the dude alone, your taking what he said way out of context

Sure O'neal was a Blazer and Jax a Spur/net/hawk

He means FRANCHISE PLAYER, he MEANS FACE OF A FRANCHISE, O'neal wasen't, Jax wasen't eather the Face of any franchise...

I think he had some good points and ya'll gotta learn to respect that Taz

The only major trade I can think of regarding two franchise players swopping would be Francis for McGrady

he said it was his opion so let him have it allready...

Kaufman
07-07-2005, 01:24 AM
Mr. Foretaz
Like I said a few posts ago, I'm sort of new posting here, I enjoy reading everyone's comments and all and some of the stuff people come up with. Now I'm not one to put people down or anything and it's not that big of a deal to me, I'm not ripping you bc it's just not that important to me, but try to get the point instead of getting defensive.

I knew you would bring up the case of all these guys not being drafted here. But be a bit logical here. Jermaine O'Neal really didn't do much in Portland. It was basically college for him. He probably got some good training D-ing up Wallace in practice. But he became JO here in Indy. I don't have a problem with trades what so ever. Sometimes you tweak here and there. But I think there is something sacreligous about trading the guy on ur team that is the foundation. For years, LA had interest in Reggie Miller. Even the Knicks were interested. But we never traded the guy bc he was the foundation of our team. Its sort of pointless to trade the foundation. Jermaine is the foundation. I see him, just like Reggie said, as the guy who's receiving the baton. I think that he needs to still earn some confidence in us, the common fan, but he's still young and I think he's done enough for this city to earn our respect and trust that we give him some time. KG is the Timberwolves. And no I dont' think that the surrounding cast there is crap what-so-ever. Yes I did check out the t-wolf roster. Last I checked Cassell had two rings. Um, Spree is a all-star caliber talent. Wally S. was college player of the year?? (I think, I'm not sure). Malik Sealy was a pacer draftee. Same with Hoiberg. Peeler was a pretty good clutch shooter for them at one time. I do think they've had some decent players. And I do think there was some potential to work with. I guess I lost respect for KG when he did that commercial. I dont' know how much of a team player the guy is.
I'm not saying at all that trades are bad. I loved Detlef Schrempf but I was all for D. McKey. But role players are one thing. I don't like seeing flip flopping star players, foundation kind of guys. Its like type-casting in the entertainment business. Marcia Brady never really starred in much after the Brady Bunch bc you have this image of Marcia Marcia Marcia. When Jordan was a Wizard, well still we always remembered and compared to the MJ of the Bulls. I don't think KG at this point will ever be anything but a T-wolf. You don't remember these star type of players for the teams they end up with, you remember them for the teams they start out with. Eric Dickerson to me was always a borrowed commodity, a RAM at heart. He even admits that the worst mistake he ever made was leaving the Rams. And he retired with the rams. But you know, why was a great player like that traded in the first place?? Mental issues. If KG were to be traded, it would be bc of his own mental issues. I don't want that.
And I don't want people to remember my champion Pacers and think of Timberwolves. I know many people may disagree, but I'd rather not win one than win with KG. It wouldn't be the Pacers.
You've got to admit there's something neat about watching a cornerstone guy grow up with your team.
And hey man, if this is an ego thing for you to put down new visitors when they post here, well your doing a pretty good job of alienating people. Chill out man, its only a game. I take care of sick people with bigger problems than going back and forth with ya about the Pacers. So if you are determined to win, so be it, I'll surrender. But at least try to understand what I'm trying to get across here.

foretaz
07-07-2005, 01:46 AM
If championship is wanted sooo badly, maybe in retrospect, had we traded our whole team for the whole Spurs team before the trade deadline, we could have had a championship this year.
In that case we wouldn't even need Garnett...

u know...when u make comments such as this....and incinuate that kg is nothing great....i wonder why i even bothered....shouldve known better....

i have a suggestion based on all that ive read from u so far...wake up....this is big business.....its cut throat....everyone wants to win....nothing wrong with wanting things done that right way...but this is truly competitive and billons of dollars are involved....with ur approach u might want to consider watching 'Hoosiers' once a day to make sure u get ur fix....

u dont want kg.....thats fine....ur entitled to that opinion....and have no problem withthat....but dont go calling me out and telling me that my opinion is wrong and that kg is nothing great and ud prefer our team follow the movie plot of 'Hoosiers' to win a title.....u can enjoy ur fantasy world however u would like.....to each his own....but if u wanna chastise my beliefs and my opinion u might want to have something a bit more consistent and less hypocritical than kg sux and i want my boys homegrown....

Bball
07-07-2005, 01:58 AM
But you know, why was a great player like that traded in the first place?? Mental issues. If KG were to be traded, it would be bc of his own mental issues. I don't want that.


Well... since we are dealing in hypotheticals... IF JO was traded for KG there'd be reasons on this side too. IOW, if all was absolutely hunky dory in Pacerland then they wouldn't necessarily pull the trigger on a deal unless they had some question marks about JO and/or how he fits into this team and where they are going... and they must feel that KG would change that dynamic.

The same would be true no matter who they'd trade JO for. I guess I don't see your point. A KG for JO trade wouldn't be a salary dump so it would have to be made for on court performance. It takes two to tango. There's no trade if either of the sides doesn't want to do it.

-Bball

foretaz
07-07-2005, 02:09 AM
not sure how not being able to win a title is a mental issue....if kg asks for a trade-which i dont believe he will....it will be because he believes he will never be able to win a title in minnesota.....hes given them plenty of time to put a supporting cast around him to give him that chance...and while they came closest with cassell, spreewell and kanditazer, that simply wasnt near enuff, even for kg.....face it....people arent knocking down doors to go to minnesota.....even to play with kg....hes been there 10 years....its not like hes bailing first chance he gets....

the dude wants to win...badly...that is obvious by all his actions....and because of the type of guy he is, he probably will continue to try to do so in minny....but if he had a change of heart, id welcome him with open arms and hope that the pacers would do the same....as ive constantly said, i love jo and think the world of him, but for this team kg would probably be better....

aceace
07-07-2005, 02:46 AM
In being fair to KG.... as good as he made everyone else around him better. Spreewell has just the opposite effect. Minn had improved the last 3 years winning 50-51-58 games with him. Sprewell and the injuries they had took its toll this year.

foretaz
07-07-2005, 03:56 AM
1996- all NBA Rookie 2nd team
1999- all NBA 3rd team

2000- all NBA defense 1st team
2000- all NBA 1st team

2001- all NBA defense 1st team
2001- all NBA 2nd team

2002- all NBA defense 1st team
2002- all NBA 2nd team

2003- all NBA defense 1st team
2003- all NBA 1st team
2003- all-star MVP

2004- all NBA defense 1st team
2004- all NBA 1st team
2004- NBA MVP

2005- all NBA defense 1st team
2005- all NBA 2nd team


naaaa.....no way....what in the world would we want to even consider a guy like this for?....

Diesel
07-07-2005, 10:10 AM
1996- all NBA Rookie 2nd team
1999- all NBA 3rd team

2000- all NBA defense 1st team
2000- all NBA 1st team

2001- all NBA defense 1st team
2001- all NBA 2nd team

2002- all NBA defense 1st team
2002- all NBA 2nd team

2003- all NBA defense 1st team
2003- all NBA 1st team
2003- all-star MVP

2004- all NBA defense 1st team
2004- all NBA 1st team
2004- NBA MVP

2005- all NBA defense 1st team
2005- all NBA 2nd team


naaaa.....no way....what in the world would we want to even consider a guy like this for?....



If it was Jermaine Oneal and one of our young guys like Fred Jones, Granger or Harrison you have to consider doing it but I don't think we should gut our roster for a powerforward when we are already have somebody of Jermaine Oneals caliber. I'm a big fan of Garnett but If this is our major move in the offseason I don't think we have improved ourselves enough to win a title, especially if we give up Artest+Oneal or Oneal+Tinlsey+Foster to get him.

Im more then comfortable building around Oneal. Originally I wanted them to go after Redd, Allen or Hughes in a sign and trade during free agency. If we could have landed one of those three I think we would have been the favorites to win a title. Since it looks like thats not going to happen all I can hope for now is to add a solid backup pg like Watson or Daniels and try to aquire a backup low post threat to spell Jermaine Oneal. If we can do that I think we would have done enough to have a fighting chance to win a title.

able
07-07-2005, 11:30 AM
I keep wondering why everybody wants; Allen, Redd, KG, Hughes and so on and so on.
Willing to trade JO for that (heck even for Bosh) and then think we will be a contender.
You gotta be *****tin me.

1. JO is not that much less of a player then KG, watch this coming season who you would prefer, the past season was no real barometer for that, but I am sure many of you will be amazed. (if what you are suggesting to trade is true)
2. Shooters, look for the P's to re-sign JJ, as I now said many a time ,he's a pure shooter.
3. With Tins showing last season that he CAN score if asked, trust his role to be more that way at times.
4. IF we land Saras, we will have another tweener for the 1-2 that has A. a good shot, and B. has "the mentality"
5. Look and see what Granger's shot is like
6. Look for Ron, who WILL shoot better then he did and will be a big scorer, opponents will get a choice of who burns them on the offensive end, Ron, JO, Jax, (JJ), or Tins (Saras) in any case not a choice I would like to make.

Now for the dreamers:

JB will have a break-out season or be dumped on the eternally injured list and give us the excemption to go after another shooter
Hulk Harrison will have a break-out year, watch him dominate the paint!
(btw the kid can score, so if he can take serious minutes, think of our line-up!)

Let's just hope we have one year where players are lucky enough to stay healthy in which case there are but few who we have to "fear".

foretaz
07-07-2005, 11:45 AM
i agree with u able....kg is not that much better of a player than jo....they are both two of the very best in the league....

the only reason i engage in this conversation is this(besides its the boring offseason)

they are different players.....and i feel that kg would actually be even a better fit on the team than jo is....unlike some that might want this deal-i love jo....and wouldnt trade him for anyone but kg(id even hesitate on duncan, because to me jo and duncan are much more similar)...but i believe that kg and artest would work better together than jo and ron...and given the sometimes rift between jo and ron, that to me would be another reason u have to consider it.....

they both are legitimate MVP candidates....and jo and ron looked great together for the few games they played at the beginning of the season...and i look forward to the upcoming season with our whole roster plus the additions....and believe we will make it to the finals....

but if this team could get kg with jo and a role player or 2...as deep as we are, we could stand to trade a little quantity for a slight upgrade at one of our 2 best positions...and i think the team would run a bit more smoothly with kg....thats why i say if hes on the market, u do it....but i dont think hes on the market....so its really just hypothetical talk as far as im concerned....other than that, i pretty much agree with every thing u say...

im very, very hopeful we can somehow get saras....though i think we are in 2nd place in that right now....we need a little luck...but hey we got lucky with granger so who knows....

Since86
07-07-2005, 11:51 AM
I'm with Able. When you take the list of the top PF's in the game, and you have the top three consisting of TD, KG, and JO, I don't understand how that one move is so big in everyone's mind.

Is KG better? Of course, he's more consistent. He's going to get you 22 and 14 night in and night out, with games breaking into the 30's once every 5 or 6 games. If,and I stress that heavily, he actually does get traded to the Ps, it isn't going to be the next MJ story. The way this team is setup, he won't have the big stat games like he has to have in Minny. I'm quite positive if he were here, and JO was there, that JO would narrow the gap and be considered equal, if not better.

I don't see the Pacers trading young talent to move up one spot in one position.

EDIT: Trading JO would be a PR hardship. The average fan identifies the Pacers with Jermaine. He has been being shoved down throats for a few years, as the new franchise face. You don't just trade away the player that most people idenify and not expect some backlash. Might only be for a couple weeks, maybe a couple months, but they'd have to start selling another player. Personally I don't see any other player on the roster that can be sold in the media.

Ultimate Frisbee
07-07-2005, 12:25 PM
please let a trade for JO happen... JO=poor man's KG

Kaufman
07-07-2005, 07:04 PM
YOu keep saying the team should make this trade bc the the team would "run more smoothly". What exactly does that mean?
And, how do you know the team would run more smoothly?
And, what about the team was it that didn't run smoothly the last time it was completely together (2004) was it that concerns you?

Harmonica
07-07-2005, 07:51 PM
EDIT: Trading JO would be a PR hardship. The average fan identifies the Pacers with Jermaine. He has been being shoved down throats for a few years, as the new franchise face. You don't just trade away the player that most people idenify and not expect some backlash. Might only be for a couple weeks, maybe a couple months, but they'd have to start selling another player. Personally I don't see any other player on the roster that can be sold in the media.

How would it be a PR nightmare? What backlash? From whom? And do you seriously think Donnie (or Larry, for that matter) concerns himself with what a few emotionally-attached fans might think when it comes to running this team. He selected Reggie in the draft over some local favorite. He traded Detlef much to the outcry of a lot of fans. He traded Dale for then-unknown Jermaine. KG would put fans in the seats. Jermaine is not Reggie Miller. If they felt like it would make this team better, they would do the trade and wouldn't think twice about what you or I or Bob Kravitz or anyone else thinks.

Sollozzo
07-07-2005, 08:19 PM
How would it be a PR nightmare? What backlash? From whom? And do you seriously think Donnie (or Larry, for that matter) concerns himself with what a few emotionally-attached fans might think when it comes to running this team. He selected Reggie in the draft over some local favorite. He traded Detlef much to the outcry of a lot of fans. He traded Dale for then-unknown Jermaine. KG would put fans in the seats. Jermaine is not Reggie Miller. If they felt like it would make this team better, they would do the trade and wouldn't think twice about what you or I or Bob Kravitz or anyone else thinks.


Not to mention the fact that KG would become the "new face of the franchise" instantly, anyway. I have a feeling that KG would make a huge impact as far as jerseys and other merchandise.

KG would make most fans forget about Jermaine O'Neal. KG is a superstar that appeals to the masses. All NBA fans respect KG and identify him as one of THE best players in the game. I don't think there is that kind of league respect for JO.

foretaz
07-08-2005, 03:32 AM
How would it be a PR nightmare? What backlash? From whom? And do you seriously think Donnie (or Larry, for that matter) concerns himself with what a few emotionally-attached fans might think when it comes to running this team. He selected Reggie in the draft over some local favorite. He traded Detlef much to the outcry of a lot of fans. He traded Dale for then-unknown Jermaine. KG would put fans in the seats. Jermaine is not Reggie Miller. If they felt like it would make this team better, they would do the trade and wouldn't think twice about what you or I or Bob Kravitz or anyone else thinks.

omg...someone call the devil....i think hell might have just froze over...im actually with the kazoo man on this one....

its not like we would be bringing in rasheed....its kg...kg is a huge fan favorite just about everywhere....and i have a feeling fans in indy would much rather have kg as the face of the franchise than jo at this point....something about that being annointed thing....versus kg, who most would agree is worthy

Since86
07-08-2005, 11:24 AM
How would it be a PR nightmare? What backlash? From whom? And do you seriously think Donnie (or Larry, for that matter) concerns himself with what a few emotionally-attached fans might think when it comes to running this team. He selected Reggie in the draft over some local favorite. He traded Detlef much to the outcry of a lot of fans. He traded Dale for then-unknown Jermaine. KG would put fans in the seats. Jermaine is not Reggie Miller. If they felt like it would make this team better, they would do the trade and wouldn't think twice about what you or I or Bob Kravitz or anyone else thinks.

Fans who don't have season tickets. It would be like the Colts trading off Peyton. The casual fan is what makes the Pacers the most money.

I'm not saying they wouldn't do it because of it. I'm just saying there would be some kind of PR problem. Dale, or Detlef for that matter, weren't even close to being the face of the franchise. It's not even in the same category, and I'm fimiliar with a lot of people who were upset when they got rid of Dale and said it took them awhile to get interest back. I'm all for trades that make the Pacers better, but I don't think KG and JO would make them statistically better, especially if you make a package deal with 4 players going for 2.

Your trying to pick a fight with something that I pointed out, not my problem with the situation. If you want to attack my reasoning for not wanting to do the trade, then start nitpicking your way through KG only being a step ahead of JO.

Since86
07-08-2005, 11:28 AM
omg...someone call the devil....i think hell might have just froze over...im actually with the kazoo man on this one....

its not like we would be bringing in rasheed....its kg...kg is a huge fan favorite just about everywhere....and i have a feeling fans in indy would much rather have kg as the face of the franchise than jo at this point....something about that being annointed thing....versus kg, who most would agree is worthy


You just don't trade away the most fimiliar face of an organization, and not expect some kind of hiccup. You're being very niave if you don't. Could you imagine the Colts trading Peyton for Donovan McNabb? It wouldn't go down smoothly until the casual fan sees the results are positive.

foretaz
07-08-2005, 11:53 AM
You just don't trade away the most fimiliar face of an organization, and not expect some kind of hiccup. You're being very niave if you don't. Could you imagine the Colts trading Peyton for Donovan McNabb? It wouldn't go down smoothly until the casual fan sees the results are positive.

i think the casual fan still sees reggie as the face of the franchise....whatever questions might come up would very quickly be overcome....i think most folks trust larry...and i think most pacers fans are serious enuff basketball fans to know just how great kg is....pacers fans are some of the most knowledgeable anywhere....they know how good kg is....

and pacers fans want to win....and if larry thinks bringing kg would better their chances to win a championship then i think most fans would find it easy to understand, based on what they know about kg...

its not like trading peyton....peyton is simply the best in the business...the scenario ur defining would be how the twolves fans would react.....and im sure they would be pissed....

now how eagles fans would feel about trading donovan for peyton would more accurately define how pacers fans would feel trading jo for kg....eagles fans havent won the big one yet....and they want to win, badly....and while they may love donovan(much more than pacers fans love jo-donovan has been the true face of the franchise for many years-jo simply hasnt, reggie has)most of them would probably realize peyton is simply the best in the business and realize their chances of winning it all just went up....

like i said....im a huge jo fan....moreso than most....im not one of his detractors.....ive stuck up for him thru everything...but as much as i like him i think kg would give us a better chance to win the title....so for that, id be understanding....

Sollozzo
07-08-2005, 01:24 PM
Um, McNab has been to the Superbowl, Manning hasn't.

If I want bigtime regular season statistics, I'll take Peyton. If I want a player to win me one game when everything is on the line, I'll take McNab anyday.

Bball
07-08-2005, 02:13 PM
Um, McNab has been to the Superbowl, Manning hasn't.

If I want bigtime regular season statistics, I'll take Peyton. If I want a player to win me one game when everything is on the line, I'll take McNab anyday.

I have less problem with Manning and more of a problem with the Colts' style of play (lack of defense and unwillingness to truly address it). Manning is asked to do too much... and for the most part he comes thru. BUT if the Colts offense has a bad day, or the other team (and/or weather) slows the attack then that's one game they might not win. And where do the teams and weather that can slow the Colts come into play?.... The playoffs...

So the analogy of swapping Peyton for McNabb doesn't necessarily work for me.

BTW... Speaking of Colts... If you are going to be a 'wide open' team it might not hurt to have a coach who buys into it and isn't afraid to use when the stakes get higher and higher.

.02.
Bball

Sollozzo
07-08-2005, 04:09 PM
I have less problem with Manning and more of a problem with the Colts' style of play (lack of defense and unwillingness to truly address it). Manning is asked to do too much... and for the most part he comes thru. BUT if the Colts offense has a bad day, or the other team (and/or weather) slows the attack then that's one game they might not win. And where do the teams and weather that can slow the Colts come into play?.... The playoffs...

So the analogy of swapping Peyton for McNabb doesn't necessarily work for me.

BTW... Speaking of Colts... If you are going to be a 'wide open' team it might not hurt to have a coach who buys into it and isn't afraid to use when the stakes get higher and higher.

.02.
Bball


I basically agree with what you've said there, but still, if I had to pick between Manning and McNabb to win me one big game, I'd go with McNabb.

I think the bottom line is, that superstars don't matter as much in the NFL as they do in the NBA. You have a much better chance of winning it all if you have a "good" offense and a "good" defense, rather than if you have a "great" offense like the colts, but a very mediocre defense as the Colts do.

Like you said, Manning can only do so much. But the past 2 years in New England, he has not been the great player that he usually is. That's why if the Colts ever want to go to the Super Bowl, they're going to have to get homefield advantage throughout the playoffs. The Colts have a decent chance of beating the Pats at the Dome, but there's no way in hell its happening at New England in January.

Look at all the blown regular season games the Colts had over the past 2 years that they should have won. If they win those, they have homefield. The Colts lost that goal line stand to the Pats in Indy a couple years ago, and the opening game last year. There are some other blown games the Colts had against other teams as well.

Since86
07-08-2005, 04:19 PM
Like you said, Manning can only do so much. But the past 2 years in New England, he has not been the great player that he usually is. That's why if the Colts ever want to go to the Super Bowl, they're going to have to get homefield advantage throughout the playoffs. The Colts have a decent chance of beating the Pats at the Dome, but there's no way in hell its happening at New England in January.

Just give them a mediocore D. When Rob Morris is your starting Middle LB, you know you got problems.

indygeezer
07-08-2005, 04:34 PM
Back on basketball, I don't think the community has embraced JO yet. They may someday but so far he hasn't produced anything to gain our "love".
Does he even own a home here? I don't know. I know Reggie did, even tho he didn't live here year round. Has he "killed" off any arch rivals? I know Reggie did....time and again. Has he been highlighted in any NBA commercial spots? I know Reggie was in the ones reading with Kids.
This has been Reggies team. The community does not yet feel the connection to JO that they (we) did with Reggie. They would forgive trading JO for anybody they deemed worthy.

BluBlood
07-08-2005, 04:40 PM
I basically agree with what you've said there, but still, if I had to pick between Manning and McNabb to win me one big game, I'd go with McNabb.

I think the bottom line is, that superstars don't matter as much in the NFL as they do in the NBA. You have a much better chance of winning it all if you have a "good" offense and a "good" defense, rather than if you have a "great" offense like the colts, but a very mediocre defense as the Colts do.

Like you said, Manning can only do so much. But the past 2 years in New England, he has not been the great player that he usually is. That's why if the Colts ever want to go to the Super Bowl, they're going to have to get homefield advantage throughout the playoffs. The Colts have a decent chance of beating the Pats at the Dome, but there's no way in hell its happening at New England in January.

Look at all the blown regular season games the Colts had over the past 2 years that they should have won. If they win those, they have homefield. The Colts lost that goal line stand to the Pats in Indy a couple years ago, and the opening game last year. There are some other blown games the Colts had against other teams as well.

1. McNabb is good but is not even close to Manning in doing what a quarterback should do, lead and execute. But he didnt get the Eagles to the superbowl on his own which brings me to.....

2. You have a much better chance of winning with a better team in ANY sport. i.e. the Pistons, and Spurs.

3. It wasnt the chilly weather that lost them the game, it was the coaching. They did not even attempt to challenge a depleted secondary and played way to cautious.

4. They have lost 8 regular season games the past two years. Considering our defense, that is incredibly solid.

BluBlood
07-08-2005, 04:41 PM
They would forgive trading JO for anybody they deemed worthy.

I wouldnt.