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BostonConnection
06-19-2005, 08:24 PM
:thepiston (2) vs. :spurs: (2)

Ah, the all-important game 5. So far SA has been pummelled by Detroit in these last two road games, but a win tonight obviously gives them back the home court advantage*. The question is: are they mentally up for it after the last two blowout losses? :hmm:

(*I added this last word to hopefully clarify what I meant better...)

foretaz
06-19-2005, 08:50 PM
actually, if they lose tonite, the spurs still have home court as the remaining two games are played in san antonio....nevertheless, i think u see a bit different spurs team tonite....i dont think we see the blowout that has so often been the case in this series...

just as importantly, tonite is the last game of the season in detroit...what kind of behavior might the pistons fans display tonite? lets hope its exemplary, though satisfactory would be acceptable, considering the source....

BostonConnection
06-19-2005, 08:54 PM
actually, if they lose tonite, the spurs still have home court as the remaining two games are played in san antonio....

While that's true of course, what I mean is that if SA wins tonight they're in the position of only needing to win 1 of 2 games at home, but if the Pistons win that means they only need to win 1 of 2 road games to win. Given the way the last two games have gone if I were on the Spurs I think I've be much more concerned about the latter scenario.

wallaceX2
06-19-2005, 09:08 PM
Come on guys, LET'S ROCK!


Nice into there Kid Rock.

Hicks
06-19-2005, 09:11 PM
Another lame-*** dragged-out introduction/song bit. :puke: I liked it better when they actually started things MORE QUICKLY than the regular season in the first couple rounds.

3ptmiller
06-19-2005, 09:13 PM
I think, i think.... :hmm: the spurs win!

OnlyPacersLeft
06-19-2005, 09:14 PM
did anyone just see the game 5 garaunsheed sign? are they a bunch of idiots in detroit (stupid question)?
I don't recall sheed garaunteeing anything? I wish that blabber mouth would have opened his trap and said something stupid like he always does.

able
06-19-2005, 09:14 PM
While that's true of course, what I mean is that if SA wins tonight they're in the position of only needing to win 1 of 2 games at home, but if the Pistons win that means they only need to win 1 of 2 road games to win. Given the way the last two games have gone if I were on the Spurs I think I've be much more concerned about the latter scenario.

We all know the theory, however.......


the last detroit win in San Antonio was in.....................






1997








ooops....

foretaz
06-19-2005, 09:21 PM
While that's true of course, what I mean is that if SA wins tonight they're in the position of only needing to win 1 of 2 games at home, but if the Pistons win that means they only need to win 1 of 2 road games to win. Given the way the last two games have gone if I were on the Spurs I think I've be much more concerned about the latter scenario.

if im a pistons fan, which i obviously not, i think i would be a bit more concerned about how the first two games in san antonio went....spurs blowouts...

able
06-19-2005, 09:23 PM
atm Spurs are NOT playing any defense, and Pistons are playing at home, meaning the refs will NOT whistle anything in the bucket against them that is not at least double overly clear.

Kstat
06-19-2005, 09:24 PM
if im a pistons fan, which i obviously not, i think i would be a bit more concerned about how the first two games in san antonio went....spurs blowouts...

If this was the pacers smoking the spurs, would you be so concerned about the same thing right now?

I highly doubt it.

PacerSoul
06-19-2005, 09:27 PM
Spurs will win this game.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-19-2005, 09:28 PM
blah wtf SA showing not much already. These guys must love going down 3-2. Winner of this game I think will win the series.

3ptmiller
06-19-2005, 09:30 PM
This is just a miracle, cant believe how much Home games means for an Nba team... First the spurs win two games in a row at home with 20-30 pts Lead and we all thought that it was over! Then Pistons win at home with 20-30 pts Lead and now its the opposite... Its so weird i think. I mean.. you still are shooting a basketball on a Road game right? What is it that makes you miss so damn much and force turnovers... its like if they did it in purpise just to prolong the Series and make more money for NBA! lol

foretaz
06-19-2005, 09:33 PM
If this was the pacers smoking the spurs, would you be so concerned about the same thing right now?

I highly doubt it.

lol..lets see....if we had to win a game in san antonio to win the title....had not done so in like 10 years and the first two games of the series we lost in blowouts....

yea....i would be concerned....

BostonConnection
06-19-2005, 09:41 PM
lol..lets see....if we had to win a game in san antonio to win the title....had not done so in like 10 years and the first two games of the series we lost in blowouts....

yea....i would be concerned....

IMO, you can't really put much stock in the outcome of games played during the regular season to playoff series in terms of win/loss record, especially between teams from different conferences who only play on the other's court 1 time per year. If the Spurs are thinking that they can't possibly lose to the Pistons at home because of that, that's not a good sign. :twocents:

And ask Popovich if he thinks the fact that the first 2 Spurs blowout wins at home in this series means that the games are locks for SA back in Texas. I think you can guess what his response would be....

End of the 1st Quarter:
:thepiston 23
:spurs: 21

Kstat
06-19-2005, 09:44 PM
before game 1 of the finals last year, the Pistons hadn't won a game in LA since 1997 either......

BostonConnection
06-19-2005, 09:46 PM
FG Shooting:
:thepiston 9-17 (.529)
:spurs: 10-25 (.400)

Rebounding:
:thepiston 8 (2 offensive)
:spurs: 12 (7 offensive)

BostonConnection
06-19-2005, 10:20 PM
Halftime:
:spurs: 42
:thepiston 42

Hicks
06-19-2005, 11:14 PM
This feels like a game the Pistons should win. Either San Antonio capitalizes on more Detroit turnovers for a key run, or they get pretty hot from the outside, or Detroit takes this.

Lord Helmet
06-19-2005, 11:36 PM
Offensive rebounds killed the Spurs, but hey, its the Piston's trademark.

Hicks
06-19-2005, 11:47 PM
Horry is amazing in the clutch, meanwhile Duncan shoots his team in the foot at the foul line.

Hicks
06-19-2005, 11:52 PM
Duncan is really struggling. I'm almost surprised he tied it.

Hicks
06-19-2005, 11:53 PM
This game is should be showing up on ESPN classic in the future. This ending has been great.

Hicks
06-19-2005, 11:55 PM
Rasheed tried to call timeout with a tiny bit of time left-- Detroit had none. They don't HAVE any. If the refs notice that, it's a T....

Lord Helmet
06-19-2005, 11:55 PM
Overtime..... Kstat, please thank Tim Duncan. :laugh:

Hicks
06-19-2005, 11:56 PM
Nevermind replay show he didn't. BARELY. Like they said though if Ben had grabbed that a split second sooner, which he nearly did, he probably was going to pull a Webber.

indytoad
06-19-2005, 11:56 PM
Can't believe Duncan missed that one. I think Rasheed called time after the clock expired though.

IndyToad
A position of...nothing, really

indytoad
06-20-2005, 12:01 AM
No, it's Kevin Ollie's fault.

IndyToad
Very quiet

able
06-20-2005, 12:03 AM
UTTER BS call, that's alot of helpagain for Det.

No foul on weed for slapping TD at the end of reg, no T for weed on calling a timeout, because "time ran out" and now this .......

able
06-20-2005, 12:06 AM
and Horry, with the 8th turnover ???

He does bring something but has way to many turnovers for that/

indytoad
06-20-2005, 12:07 AM
Horry - wow.

IndyToad
In agony

Jermaniac
06-20-2005, 12:07 AM
Horry just dunked on Hamiltons whole family

Jermaniac
06-20-2005, 12:08 AM
I blame Bender.

Or Gill.It was AJ's fault

indytoad
06-20-2005, 12:08 AM
Something is wrong with Duncan. Seriously.

IndyToad
Can't do it

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:09 AM
Duncan is quickly approaching "will need suicide watch tonight" status. At least he got that rebound & timeout there.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:10 AM
What horrible officiating in benefit of the Pistons. Absolutely sickening. Especially those 2 Chauncy f.t.s which may cost San Antonio the win.

able
06-20-2005, 12:10 AM
Duncan is dead on his feet, he has two sprained ankles that must feel like lead at this time of the game

3ptmiller
06-20-2005, 12:11 AM
So whos gona do the "Reggie" shot :D

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:12 AM
OH MY GOD

indytoad
06-20-2005, 12:12 AM
And Horry keeps on doing it.

IndyToad
In the corner

3ptmiller
06-20-2005, 12:13 AM
Robert Horry :worship:

Sollozzo
06-20-2005, 12:13 AM
So whos gona do the "Reggie" shot :D


They have Bob Horry, who is putting on a performance that is as impressive as any of Reggie's.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:14 AM
Forget what I said earlier-- this WILL be on ESPN Classic in the future.

TheHotShot31
06-20-2005, 12:14 AM
Horry= Finals MVP

3ptmiller
06-20-2005, 12:15 AM
Whats going on? Timeout now right?

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:16 AM
Whats going on? Timeout now right?

Yeah, a couple simultaneous timeouts. One right before having to inbound to see what Detroit was doing, then another to extend the break.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:16 AM
Whats going on? Timeout now right?

Yes, it's commercial...WOW what a game.

Horry=my favorite non-Pacer now.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:17 AM
San Antonio DID IT. Wow.

Dr Huxtable
06-20-2005, 12:17 AM
Great game.

able
06-20-2005, 12:17 AM
Game, and series :D

wtg Spurs!

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:18 AM
Hamilton elbowed Tony Parker in the face.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:18 AM
series ain't over yet.

That said, what Sheed and Larry did on that last play was unforgivable.

I'll also admit we're REALLY on the ropes.

Horry's pixie dust killed us. We won the game in every way imaginable, except for Horry and his ******* threes.

able
06-20-2005, 12:18 AM
and yeah let's not call the double offensive from Rip, the elbow was sooooo hard to notice :)

justice was served.

able
06-20-2005, 12:18 AM
series ain't over yet.

yes it is, Detroit stands NO chance in San An, and you can bet on that.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:19 AM
yes it is, Detroit stands NO chance in San An, and you can bet on that.


No, it ain't over.

A good team can win ANYWHERE on the road. SA proved that tonight.

3ptmiller
06-20-2005, 12:20 AM
The right team did win... spurs diserved this one!

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:20 AM
series ain't over yet.

That said, what Sheed and Larry did on that last play was unforgivable.

I'll also admit we're REALLY on the ropes.

Horry's pixie dust killed us. We won the game in every way imaginable, except for Horry and his ******* threes.

What did they exactly do thast's unforgivable?

Series is over.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:21 AM
other than gift-wrapping san antonio the win, not much.

3ptmiller
06-20-2005, 12:21 AM
No, it ain't over.

A good team can win ANYWHERE on the road. SA proved that tonight.

They will probably win one game and tie it... but then... :cool:

Jesus Shuttlesworth
06-20-2005, 12:21 AM
THANK GOD

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:22 AM
we'll see.

you have to win four games. That was only #3 for SA.

efx
06-20-2005, 12:22 AM
Can't we all just set aside our differences and just admit that we watched one hell of a game here?

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:23 AM
Can't we all just set aside our differences and just admit that we watched one hell of a game here?

Oh, it was a great game.

All I said was that it wasn't the last one.

SoupIsGood
06-20-2005, 12:23 AM
That was a great game.

Pistons will take the next two, though.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:24 AM
My prediction of Pistons in 7 is still intact.

Lord Helmet
06-20-2005, 12:25 AM
Hamilton elbowed Tony Parker in the face.
Yeah, then after that Rip complained for a foul..:unimpress
Man, the Horry dunk was awesome. :o

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:26 AM
other than gift-wrapping san antonio the win, not much.


ahhahahaha gift-wrapping?

Give the other team credit. They simply are the better team.

Series is over. Spurs lost 3 games all year at home. Pistons going to win 2 of them? LOL.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:27 AM
ahhahahaha gift-wrapping?

Give the other team credit. They simply are the better team.

Yeah, because I've never given SA any credit at all........um, yeah.

We purposefully left their only player who WASN'T choking on the ball a wide-open three. There is probably no worse idea we could have come out with.

Jermaniac
06-20-2005, 12:27 AM
When Sheed went to trap Gino on that 3,I just said Sheed you just ****ed your self. And I was right, ball gets passed back to Horry and boom game winning 3.

Sollozzo
06-20-2005, 12:28 AM
Hamilton elbowed Tony Parker in the face.


Then did you see Rip acting like a foul should have been called on Parker?


That was also Rip that gave a classic flop when Robert Horry POSTERIZED him.

Kraft
06-20-2005, 12:30 AM
Three cheers for the officiating.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:32 AM
My prediction of Pistons in 7 is still intact.

As is my prediction of Spurs in 6 ;)

Frankly neither would surprise me now.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:33 AM
The Pistons survived a trople-OT game 5 loss at home last year.

They can survive this.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:33 AM
Three cheers for the officiating.

Yeah. Some will praise it as great, I'll simply say that bad calls went evenly both ways. I'll take that over (seemingly) one-sided any day.

Kraft
06-20-2005, 12:33 AM
My long-standing prediction of "Spurs over whoever they play in 5" is true. The Spurs did win game 5. :cool:

PacerFan31
06-20-2005, 12:35 AM
I picked the Spurs in six like many others did, and right now, I feel pretty good about that lol

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:35 AM
The officiating went in benefit of Detroit. Horry was just too clutch.

foretaz
06-20-2005, 12:36 AM
well as far as the so called clutch performers on both sides.....horry truly performed like a clutch performer....chauncey on the other hand, well.....have i mentioned horry sure did perform like a clutch performer ??

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:37 AM
Oh Chauncey was plenty clutch. Without him the Spurs win by about 6 in regulation. He just missed one eventually. Law of averages I say. If I have an all-time starting 5 of clutch players, he's my 1.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:37 AM
The Pistons survived a trople-OT game 5 loss at home last year.

They can survive this.


LMFAO ROFL.

This is the Spurs, not an injury ridden Nets team with a hobbling Jason Kidd. LMAO.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:38 AM
Plus, game 7 would also be in San Antonio, not back at the Palace. If anyone can do it, it's this Pistons squad, but this is a lot tougher than that was.

Kraft
06-20-2005, 12:39 AM
I do very much love how Larry Brown took out Billups in favor of Lindsay Hunter for defense at the end of the game. It's not like Hunter's quicker, and certainly not quick enough to keep up with Parker.

I'm sorry. I just hate hearing how Billups was all-defensive second team. What a crock.

(EDIT: To clarify, all the votes for those teams are crocks, in general, so I don't mean to single Mr. Billups out. The announcers, voters, more so.)

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:42 AM
Sorry, but no.

The Pistons beat the Spurs in ever assest of the game, except leaving one of the best clutch shooters open at the end of the game........

which is kind of a small deal...........

True. However, that doesn't mean they'll do it again on Tuesday, let alone back in the house where SA looks like a champion that it could very well soon become.

foretaz
06-20-2005, 12:43 AM
Oh Chauncey was plenty clutch. Without him the Spurs win by about 6 in regulation. He just missed one eventually. Law of averages I say. If I have an all-time starting 5 of clutch players, he's my 1.

not sure we watched the same game....two successive drives to the glass in the last minute of regulation resulted in nothing...if not for duncans free throw woes the game never goes to overtime...

ill take jerry west or oscar as my 1 ;) ;)

chauncey is good...but a bit overrated at times...

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:44 AM
not sure we watched the same game....two successive drives to the glass in the last minute of regulation resulted in nothing...if not for duncans free throw woes the game never goes to overtime...

ill take jerry west or oscar as my 1 ;) ;)

chauncey is good...but a bit overrated at times...

You'll take a SG as your starting PG? :laugh:

foretaz
06-20-2005, 12:44 AM
cmon...pistons havent won in like 10 years in san antonio....they got blown out the only two games they played there in the series so far.....


they suddenly are gonna win 2 in a row???????

yea...ok..

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:45 AM
Sorry, but no.

The Pistons beat the Spurs in ever assest of the game, except leaving one of the best clutch shooters open at the end of the game........

which is kind of a small deal...........

Spurs basically gift-wrapped the game away by Duncan missing an easy tip-back at the end of regulation and missing so many clutch f.t.s.

It is a big deal, and series is over.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:46 AM
cmon...pistons havent won in like 10 years in san antonio....they got blown out the only two games they played there in the series so far.....


they suddenly are gonna win 2 in a row???????

yea...ok..

Try brushing up on your history.

The Pistons were on a 20-game losing streak in Portland in 1990, before taking three straight in the Coluseum.

And that streak spanned 17 years, not a mere 8.

Kraft
06-20-2005, 12:47 AM
The Pistons were on a 20-game losing streak in Portland in 1990, before taking three straight in the Coluseum.

Blazers, huh? I hear they may move the No. 3 pick.

(I must continue to apologize.)

foretaz
06-20-2005, 12:48 AM
You'll take a SG as your starting PG? :laugh:


yea...ill take a guy who averaged 7 assists for his career and 27ppg....and was one of the greatest all time clutch performers....any day....

you have a problem with that?

or the fact the pistons arent winning the title this year starting to sink in?

foretaz
06-20-2005, 12:50 AM
Try brushing up on your history.

The Pistons were on a 20-game losing streak in Portland in 1990, before taking three straight in the Coluseum.

And that streak spanned 17 years, not a mere 8.


funny...im not sure how that teams performance has anything to do with this teams performance....

now how this current team has fared in san antonio the last few years would have huge importance....and lets just say.....

theyve got the huge donut

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:51 AM
yea...ill take a guy who averaged 7 assists for his career and 27ppg....and was one of the greatest all time clutch performers....any day....

you have a problem with that?

or the fact the pistons arent winning the title this year starting to sink in?

I'll take Wilt as my starting PG. I mean, I never saw him play, but he has a high assist average, so he must be a PG too....

So I'll ask again: you'd take a SG over any PG in history?

Kraft
06-20-2005, 12:52 AM
Is there any Pacer fan rooting for the Pistons? Just curious.

I have a very good friend who's from Gross Pointe, Mich., so I've never really minded so much if the Pistons win. It'll make him happy, as much as I hate having to hear "Fear the Fro" all year from him.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:54 AM
Is there any Pacer fan rooting for the Pistons? Just curious.

I have a very good friend who's from Gross Pointe, Mich., so I've never really minded so much if the Pistons win. It'll make him happy, as much as I have to hear "Fear the Fro" all year from him.

Eh, doesn't bother me none.

No disgrace in losing to the spurs in the finals, if that is indeed the eventual outcome.

worst-case scenario, we finish a razor-close 2nd place the year after we win the NBA title?

Why on earth would I be crushed by that?

foretaz
06-20-2005, 12:54 AM
I'll take Wilt as my starting PG. I mean, I never saw him play, but he has a high assist average, so he must be a PG too....

So I'll ask again: you'd take a SG over any PG in history?


im assuming uve never watched west play then??? yes...i would take jerry west as the point guard of any team i ever put together....any team...without question....i saw him play...and wilt

the fact that u would take wilt as ur pg indicates a lot here...but nice try

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 12:55 AM
Is there any Pacer fan rooting for the Pistons? Just curious.

I have a very good friend who's from Gross Pointe, Mich., so I've never really minded so much if the Pistons win. It'll make him happy, as much as I hate having to hear "Fear the Fro" all year from him.

What Pacer fan can root for Detroit after what happened on November 19. We would be in the Finals if it wasn't for that infamous day.

Pistons winning it all would reward those fans and players involved with that incident.

efx
06-20-2005, 12:58 AM
I could very well root for them and not feel bad about it. Nov 19's blame needs to go all around and I'm so far removed from it I honestly don't care at this point. Nothing good will come from dwelling on it.

I'm rooting for SA though, because TD is my second favorite player in the league.

shags
06-20-2005, 12:59 AM
What Pacer fan can root for Detroit after what happened on November 19. We would be in the Finals if it wasn't for that infamous day.

Pistons winning it all would reward those fans and players involved with that incident.

And let the "The Pistons were fluke champions" and the "The Pistons are a joke of a team" articles start. :rolleyes:

That's the most frustrating part about the loss of this game, and the impending loss of this series.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:00 AM
And let the "The Pistons were fluke champions" and the "The Pistons are a joke of a team" articles start. :rolleyes:

That's the most frustrating part about the loss of this game, and the impending loss of this series.

No idiot on earth would call the Pistons 2004 title a fluke. They've MORE than proved themselves this year, finals included.

And if you get upset by that, you may as well get upset with half the people in this thread, too.

Heck, I'm ENJOYING the fact that some kids are going to be popping champaigne if the Pistons lose, despite the fact their team isn't winning a thing, either way. You know you're good when people care enough about you to hate you.

Their opinions don't mean a thing. Our banner is staying up, and shame on anybody who thinks the Pistons have anything left to prove.

efx
06-20-2005, 01:01 AM
No idiot on earth would call the Pistons 2004 title a fluke. They've MORE than proved themselves this year, finals included.
You're missing the point though. If the Lakers would have had a healthy Malone the Lakers would have won in 4 ;)

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:02 AM
You're missing the point though. If the Lakers would have had a healthy Malone the Lakers would have won in 4 ;)


:laugh:

Kraft
06-20-2005, 01:03 AM
Someone tell Larry Brown to encourage Tayhsaun a bit more offensively. When he scores, the Pistons perform.

Sheed and McDyess are so ... random, I guess ... on when they want to show up. You can count on Billups and Hamilton. If Brown pushed him more, I think they could start counting on Prince, too.

Kraft
06-20-2005, 01:05 AM
Why on earth would I be crushed by that?

C'mon, now. I understand and agree that there's no shame in losing to the Spurs in the Finals. None at all.

But losing in the NBA Finals automatically comes with some heart crushing. If you didn't feel some of that, then ... well, just ... wow.

And that's why to this day I hate Kobe Bryant more for his performance in Game 4 of the Pacers' would-be title run than I hate him for just plain being an a-hole.

foretaz
06-20-2005, 01:05 AM
No idiot on earth would call the Pistons 2004 title a fluke. They've MORE than proved themselves this year, finals included.

And if you get upset by that, you may as well get upset with half the people in this thread, too.

Their opinions don't mean a thing. Our banner is staying up, and shame on anybody who thinks the Pistons have anything left to prove.

injured nets

injured pacers

injured lakers....

nope...no fluke...none at all....very opportunistic....noone can ever take the title away from them....

the fact they werent the best team has no bearing on the matter....the fact that they were the most fortunate is what matters....

they won the title last year...period....proving once again that the best team doesnt always win....

i said before.....the stars would not align for them again....and though with what happened to the pacers and the heat it was starting to look all too familiar.....unless duncan comes up hobbled or something....detroit will finish as runnersup and, as last year, fortunate to do so...

;)

Lord Helmet
06-20-2005, 01:06 AM
You're missing the point though. If the Lakers would have had a healthy Malone the Lakers would have won in 4 ;)
That's great...:laugh:

shags
06-20-2005, 01:13 AM
C'mon, now. I understand and agree that there's no shame in losing to the Spurs in the Finals. None at all.

But losing in the NBA Finals automatically comes with some heart crushing. If you didn't feel some of that, then ... well, just ... wow.

And that's why to this day I hate Kobe Bryant more for his performance in Game 4 of the Pacers' would-be title run than I hate him for just plain being an a-hole.

I'm absolutely crushed right now. I don't know how any big Piston fan couldn't be. That game reminded me of something Bob Lamey, the Colts radio announcer, said after the Colts lost to the Patriots on a goal-line stand. He said, "It was a great game IF you didn't care who won."

And that was the game the Pistons had to have. There's no chance they win 2 in San Antonio. I'll be absolutely emotionless watching Game 6. Just waiting for the inevitable.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:16 AM
C'mon, now. I understand and agree that there's no shame in losing to the Spurs in the Finals. None at all.

But losing in the NBA Finals automatically comes with some heart crushing. If you didn't feel some of that, then ... well, just ... wow.

And that's why to this day I hate Kobe Bryant more for his performance in Game 4 of the Pacers' would-be title run than I hate him for just plain being an a-hole.

If we hadn't won the title last year, I'd be crushed, probably. But worst-case, I always have the sweet memories of 2004, to go along with 1989 and 1990.....

This year, its all gravy. And to boot, we can come right back next year and try to win it again, with a serious mental edge over every team in our conference.

And to boot, we still have basketball to play THIS year.

No matter HOW this winds up, I'm toasting my team in the end. They've made me prouder than I ever dreamed.

Kraft
06-20-2005, 01:22 AM
This year, its all gravy. And to boot, we can come right back next year and try to win it again, with a serious mental edge over every team in our conference.

I think Pepperdine has the mental edge over the Pacers.

canyoufeelit
06-20-2005, 01:34 AM
Very optimistic Kstat. You are earning my respect and I apologize for trolling you with that "Pistons are fluke champions" bullshiat earlier in the year. That said, I would be ready to jump off the bridge if my team had lost a game like that tonight. Tremendous game and it's a shame one of these hard-working teams of genuinely good people has to lose.

Will Galen
06-20-2005, 02:05 AM
they won the title last year...period....proving once again that the best team doesnt always win....


I'll agree I don't think Detroit was the best team last year, but . . . they were the best team when it counted.

And I'm still glad they beat the Laker's last year!

And I'm hoping the Piston's go down next game.

That said, K-Stat and Shags love their Piston's, we love the Pacer's, and the great thing about sports is we can always say, "We'll get you next time!"

Dr Huxtable
06-20-2005, 02:11 AM
http://s116937048.onlinehome.us/horryJAM.gif

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 02:24 AM
I could very well root for them and not feel bad about it. Nov 19's blame needs to go all around and I'm so far removed from it I honestly don't care at this point. Nothing good will come from dwelling on it.

I'm rooting for SA though, because TD is my second favorite player in the league.

I agree the blame should have been shared all around but unfortunately Stern & co. did not put the blame all around. They put it on one team: the Pacers and on one player in particular: Ron Artest.

Justice wasn't served hence a Detroit championship would tell those fans involved in the incident, "Act like punks and eliminate your competition, and a championship will be awarded to you".

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 02:25 AM
Eh, doesn't bother me none.

No disgrace in losing to the spurs in the finals, if that is indeed the eventual outcome.

worst-case scenario, we finish a razor-close 2nd place the year after we win the NBA title?

Why on earth would I be crushed by that?


Because no one remembers 2nd place, and the years before the Pistons won it all with their opponents being hurt. That will go down in history.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 02:27 AM
injured nets

injured pacers

injured lakers....

nope...no fluke...none at all....very opportunistic....noone can ever take the title away from them....

the fact they werent the best team has no bearing on the matter....the fact that they were the most fortunate is what matters....

they won the title last year...period....proving once again that the best team doesnt always win....

i said before.....the stars would not align for them again....and though with what happened to the pacers and the heat it was starting to look all too familiar.....unless duncan comes up hobbled or something....detroit will finish as runnersup and, as last year, fortunate to do so...

;)


The Pistons weren't even the best team in the Eastern Conference this season. That goes to Miami. Detroit has the fortunate circumstance of Dwayne Wade getting injured.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 02:28 AM
The Pistons weren't even the best team in the Eastern Conference this season. That goes to Miami. Detroit has the fortunate circumstance of Dwayne Wade getting injured.

If you're going to say the Pistons are "just lucky," then be a man and come out and say it. "Fortunate circumstance?" :laugh: That's just sad, man.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 02:30 AM
Because no one remembers 2nd place, and the years before the Pistons won it all with their opponents being hurt. That will go down in history.

Maybe if you keep telling yourself that, it might turn out to be true.....

SO how sour are those grapes, anyway?

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 02:31 AM
If you're going to say the Pistons are "just lucky," then be a man and come out and say it. "Fortunate circumstance?" :laugh: That's just sad, man.

It's the truth. If Wade wasn't hurt, Heat would have won it in 6 games. Miami was clearly the dominant team and had control of the series.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 02:34 AM
It's the truth. If Wade wasn't hurt, Heat would have won it in 6 games. Miami was clearly the dominant team and had control of the series.

Hey, its a free country, man. Everyone has an opinion.

Just don't start dancing around it like a ballerina.

And yes, Miami was clearly the dominant team in game 5. You are correct. For that one game, Miami was CLEARLY a better team.

If only this was the NCAA tournament....

Kstat
06-20-2005, 03:20 AM
Is there any Pacer fan rooting for the Pistons? Just curious.

I have a very good friend who's from Gross Pointe, Mich., so I've never really minded so much if the Pistons win. It'll make him happy, as much as I hate having to hear "Fear the Fro" all year from him.

You know, 15 years from now, when I'm bringing my kid to see his first finals game, I'm going to be able to point to the rafters and say, "there's #11, there's #19, there's #4, there's #21, there's #2, #40, #15, and there's #3, #1 and #32." And there our all of our championship banners. I'll be able to tell him horror stories of game 5 against Boston, game 6 against LA, and of course, game 5 against San Antonio.

However, in the end, I'll be able to tell him about all the championship memories, and all the great victories.

That's what years like this are about. I've already had more great memories than the average fan will have in a lifetime. The best part is, I'll be able to tell future generations about games like this, and then laugh.

I don't think I really realized how truly blessed I was, until tonight. I really am content, at least right now.

PHC Fan
06-20-2005, 03:23 AM
Hey, its a free country, man. Everyone has an opinion.

Just don't start dancing around it like a ballerina.

And yes, Miami was clearly the dominant team in game 5. You are correct. For that one game, Miami was CLEARLY a better team.

If only this was the NCAA tournament....
Every team has injuries. I am finally getting around to admitting that fact regarding last year's ECF!!!! (That 12 step program is really helping out!!!!)

Some teams have injuries that occur in the early goings of a season. Which hurts their chances from the get-go because those injuries don't get better without rest. If a player comes back too early, then other injuries may occur. Furthermore, they come back rusty. Teams' title chances take blows all throughout the season. Detroit was healthier than their competition in last year's playoffs. There's an element of luck and an element of great conditioning. They weren't a fluke. Yes, I can finally admit that. I'll now give my congratulations to the 2004 NBA Champions, the Detroit Pistons.

That being said, go Spurs!!!! My second fave team in the NBA (since 1989).

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 03:26 AM
You know, 15 years from now, when I'm bringing my kid to see his first finals game, I'm going to be able to point to the rafters and say, "there's #11, there's #19, there's #4, there's #21, there's #2, #40, #15, and there's #3, #1 and #32." And there our all of our championship banners. I'll be able to tell him horror stories of game 5 against Boston, game 6 against LA, and of course, game 5 against San Antonio.

However, in the end, I'll be able to tell him about all the championship memories, and all the great victories.

That's what years like this are about. I've already had more great memories than the average fan will have in a lifetime. The best part is, I'll be able to tell future generations about games like this, and then laugh.

I don't think I really realized how truly blessed I was, until tonight. I really am content, at least right now.


You'd take your kid to watch the Pacers win a championship? I don't think you can take your kids to an NBA Finals because the Pistons because another championship might not happen for another 30+ years.

pacerwaala
06-20-2005, 07:58 AM
It's the truth. If Wade wasn't hurt, Heat would have won it in 6 games. Miami was clearly the dominant team and had control of the series.


Pacer soul

Injuries are part of the game as much as shooting, rebounding,etc. Miami was probably better with Wade healthy(which I am not completely sure of) but the point is a "some players of the Miami Heat team" were injured whereas everybody on the Pistons was healthy. Give credit to the players for starying fit in a long gruelling season and the organization for doing so.

I stop listening after peole say "If so and so was not injured ....."

I do not want the Pistons to win and the only reason for that is they will get that air of invincibility next year and it will be "harder" for the Pacers to beat them next year. If they lose, they will have been humbled and will be mortals who cna be beat. But to say that the Pistons won because of other teams being injured is not correct.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 08:20 AM
Pacer soul

Injuries are part of the game as much as shooting, rebounding,etc. Miami was probably better with Wade healthy(which I am not completely sure of) but the point is a "some players of the Miami Heat team" were injured whereas everybody on the Pistons was healthy. Give credit to the players for starying fit in a long gruelling season and the organization for doing so.

I stop listening after peole say "If so and so was not injured ....."

I do not want the Pistons to win and the only reason for that is they will get that air of invincibility next year and it will be "harder" for the Pacers to beat them next year. If they lose, they will have been humbled and will be mortals who cna be beat. But to say that the Pistons won because of other teams being injured is not correct.

MY friend,

You may want to deny the realities but the reality is Detroit wasn't even the best team in the East this season. You say injuries are part of the game which is true but give credit to Detroit for what? For having good luck the last 2 seasons because their opponent's stars had major injuries? This is luck because it is a random event based on chance. If Wade didn't drive on that one play, he wouldn't have gotten injured and Miami would be in the Finals.

DisplacedKnick
06-20-2005, 08:31 AM
I'm absolutely crushed right now. I don't know how any big Piston fan couldn't be. That game reminded me of something Bob Lamey, the Colts radio announcer, said after the Colts lost to the Patriots on a goal-line stand. He said, "It was a great game IF you didn't care who won."

And that was the game the Pistons had to have. There's no chance they win 2 in San Antonio. I'll be absolutely emotionless watching Game 6. Just waiting for the inevitable.

I don't think the outcome's QUITE as much of a foregone conclusion as everyone else does. Detroit still has a shot (though I'd have to get long odds before I put money on them).

Look at last night's game. The Pistons didn't play particularly well. IMO Billups and Ben were the only two I'd say had good games. Rip didn't seem to be moving like he usually does through all those screens until down the stretch, Rasheed could get an open shot any time he wanted - but decided not to, Prince was very passive until the 4th quarter, and they absolutely blew the defense on the last shot. And all those offensive boards, unforced TO's, etc.

You go out, play like you can and win game 6. Then in game 7 all bets are off - we've all seen Detroit win game 7's on the road before.

Everyone was waiting to see how the Spurs would do in a close game with their weak FT shooting. They escaped last night but they were lucky. If Detroit's within about 8 with 2 minutes left they'll have a chance.

I wouldn't bet on it, but if the Spurs relax at all for game 6 I can see it happening.

Fool
06-20-2005, 08:35 AM
http://s116937048.onlinehome.us/horryJAM.gif

Any team that lets Robert Horry dunk on them from the 3pt line deserves to ...

How is that not a char...

It was a great game, until the end, and for Spurs fans (and a few bitter Pacer fans) the end was great too.

Unclebuck
06-20-2005, 08:59 AM
Pistons certainly could win game #6. No doubt in my mind about that.

But game #5 was and will be the defining game of this series, that I am sure of. When this series is over everyone will look back at game #5 and say well that game decided this series.

sc
06-20-2005, 10:33 AM
MY friend,

You may want to deny the realities but the reality is Detroit wasn't even the best team in the East this season. You say injuries are part of the game which is true but give credit to Detroit for what? For having good luck the last 2 seasons because their opponent's stars had major injuries? This is luck because it is a random event based on chance. If Wade didn't drive on that one play, he wouldn't have gotten injured and Miami would be in the Finals.

And If ... And If ...

And If ... Isiah does not break his foot the Pistons win three titles in a row and if Dumars hand is not broken before the playoffs Detroit may win four titles.

Injuries are excuses they are not reasons. Only losing teams complain about injuries. Just like complaining about the refs.

SjA3837
06-20-2005, 10:37 AM
Injuries are excuses they are not reasons. Only losing teams complain about injuries. Just like complaining about the refs.
I heard more complaining about the refs from the Pistons, than the Pacers, but Detriot was the winning team? :confused:

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 10:40 AM
And If ... And If ...

And If ... Isiah does not break his foot the Pistons win three titles in a row and if Dumars hand is not broken before the playoffs Detroit may win four titles.

Injuries are excuses they are not reasons. Only losing teams complain about injuries. Just like complaining about the refs.

Complaining about the refs is a different situation. You may want to deny the realities as other Piston fans do because they don't want their title run last year to be known as a "one time thing" because their opponents in every round were hurt. In 10 years, if someone watches the whole playoff run of the Pistons they will see how fortunate and (lucky) they were.

Complaining about the refs is nonsense most of the time, unless it's an LJ 4 point play or some other horrible officiating (just ask Jeff Van Gundy) but those are just conspiracies that can't be backed up but Detroit's opponents Superstars being injured are legitimate facts not conspiracies and these facts are legitimate reasons. Detroit simply wasn't the best team from the East this year or even last year if J.O. and Jamaal weren't hurt.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 10:42 AM
I heard more complaining about the refs from the Pistons, than the Pacers, but Detriot was the winning team? :confused:

Exactly, just go to a Pistons message board. Every time they lose it's the "Refs fault". They think they are some sort of dynasty team and the refs should be kissing their asses. It's because Rashweed and their players complain about the refs 24/7 and get away with it when other players wouldn't. The refs are blatantly in their favor and so is the league (just look at this years suspensions) and they make it look like the only reason the Spurs will win it all is because of the officiating.

sc
06-20-2005, 11:08 AM
Again, complaining about the other teams injuries is part of the game. There are always injuries at this time. Should it derail what they accomplished or any other team has accomplished. The Bulls won six titles during a down period in the NBA in terms of talent should their titles be dimished. Should the Lakers return the 1987 title becuase the Celtics were beat up and at the end of their run.

No, that is all part of the game. Get over it and move on, it is all just entertainment.

Fool
06-20-2005, 11:13 AM
Its good to know that you have contacted all the fans watching the finals and know that only Spurs fans and bitter Pacers fans were rooting for the Spurs......

You are right, I am forgetting all about the thread talking about all the Hawk fans watching the Finals.

Quit looking for things to be a prick about.

sweabs
06-20-2005, 11:32 AM
I will say this: Detroit won it all last year - these guys are World Champs. They've been in pressure situations before. They've been down 3-2 before in a series.

Last year, Eastern Conference Semi-Finals, I believe they came back from a 3-2 deficit to beat New Jersey, winning Game 7 in Jersey.

I am not going to be surprised by anything at this point. Just don't count out the World Champs.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 11:35 AM
Exactly, just go to a Pistons message board. Every time they lose it's the "Refs fault". They think they are some sort of dynasty team and the refs should be kissing their asses. It's because Rashweed and their players complain about the refs 24/7 and get away with it when other players wouldn't. The refs are blatantly in their favor and so is the league (just look at this years suspensions) and they make it look like the only reason the Spurs will win it all is because of the officiating.
want some cheese with that whine? :bawl:

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:39 PM
Last year, Eastern Conference Semi-Finals, I believe they came back from a 3-2 deficit to beat New Jersey, winning Game 7 in Jersey.

Game 7 was in Detroit.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 12:40 PM
want some cheese with that whine? :bawl:

Your team would know all about that. :-p

Kstat
06-20-2005, 12:43 PM
Your team would know all about that. :-p

True, and I've called them out for it on numerous occasions, and you know that.

Excuses are the loser's lament. Only losers make them. That's been my stance as long as I can remember.

Only losers whine about injuries, conspiracies, and "luck" :sarcasm: .

Ultimately, the best team wins the championship. If they weren't the best team, then someone would have beaten them. That's why the banner reads, "NBA champions." It means you were the best team in the NBA for that year. Anybody who says otherwise is just blowing hot air.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:08 PM
I still don't agree about injuries. Take the 1998 Finals. Jordan tears an achilles late in game 2. Jazz win the series in 5 or 6. That doesn't mean the Jazz were better than the Bulls. It means Jordan got hurt.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:13 PM
I still don't agree about injuries. Take the 1998 Finals. Jordan tears an achilles late in game 2. Jazz win the series in 5 or 6. That doesn't mean the Jazz were better than the Bulls. It means Jordan got hurt.

Say Jordan misses a dunk with 3 seconds left, and stockton manages to heave the game-winner from 90 feet?

Whatever happens, happens. That's basketball. IF you were meant to win, you win. It's not a valid excuse, its just part of the game, as much as missing a free throw, or grabbig a key rebound. Jordan tearing his ACL is no different than Jordan getting himself ejected, or Jordan dribbling off his foot 10 times.

Isn't it kind of strange how great players NEVER get injured in the finals, and even when they do, they always seem to only play BETTER? A little off-topic, but I think there's some karma there. A strong will can conquer almost anything.

In the end, the winners win and the losers lose. That's about as much as I can simplify it.

And i'll reiterate my line: if you get into a close game and lose, for WHATEVER reason, it's ultimately YOUR fault for not putting the game away earlier.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:15 PM
Serious injuries are not automatically part of the game. You don't play basketball expecting to get seriously injuried.

Now, anything that happens with the clock running, I'll agree with you: What happens, happens; the chips are gonna fall where they're gonna fall.

But serious injuries do not fit in there.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:16 PM
Also, I don't believe you would historically call the '98 Jazz the better team if they won in the circumstance I described. I don't believe it.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:16 PM
Serious injuries are not automatically part of the game. You don't play basketball expecting to get seriously injuried.

Now, anything that happens with the clock running, I'll agree with you: What happens, happens; the chips are gonna fall where they're gonna fall.

But serious injuries do not fit in there.

Injuries happen. Thats what teamates are for.

You also have to ask, when is an injury really random? How do we know that his coach playing him too many minutes, or his decision to make an unorthadox move, or a lousy tape job by the trainer, or him not stretching properly before the game, didn't contribute?

Injuries are the most frustrating thing, as a fan, because they're the hardest to explain. But that's fate.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:17 PM
Put it this way, Rasheed and Rip are out for the playoffs after injuries in the first round, and Philly wins that series. There is no way in hell any sane person thinks Philly was the better team.

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:18 PM
Say Jordan misses a dunk with 3 seconds left, and stockton manages to heave the game-winner from 90 feet?

Whatever happens, happens. That's basketball. IF you were meant to win, you win. It's not a valid excuse, its just part of the game, as much as missing a free throw, or grabbig a key rebound. Jordan tearing his ACL is no different than Jordan getting himself ejected, or Jordan dribblign off his foot 10 times.

In the end, the winners win and the losers lose. That's about as much as I can simplify it.

And i'll reiterate my line: if you get into a close game and lose, for WHATEVER reason, it's ultimately YOUR fault for not putting the game away earlier.

The difference is that Jordan is d-u-n, done after an injury like that. If he dribbles off his foot ten times, misses fts, or gets ejected, he's back for the next game. With injuries like a torn ACL you dont have the luxury of saying next game you'll do better.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:19 PM
The difference is that Jordan is d-u-n, done after an injury like that. If he dribbles off his foot ten times, misses fts, or gets ejected, he's back for the next game. With injuries like a torn ACL you dont have the luxury of saying next game you'll do better.

if he does that ina game 7, he may as well have broken his leg off, because there IS no next game.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:20 PM
If he plays a bad game, it's his fault and part of basketball. If his body fails him in a freak injury, that's not basketball.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:21 PM
Put it this way, Rasheed and Rip are out for the playoffs after injuries in the first round, and Philly wins that series. There is no way in hell any sane person thinks Philly was the better team.

Then philly was just meant to win. That the Pistons might be the better team when %100 healthy is TOTALLY irrelevant. You play with who you have, and its your fault if your backups aren't good enough, or if your team doesn't fight through the injuries.

Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm never going to take away from someone else's victory with excuses, even over injuries. That's not what basketball is about.

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:21 PM
if he does that ina game 7, he may as well have broken his leg off, because there IS no next game.


That wasn't the hypothectical situation. He used game 2 for the example, so you could try to explain how you'd think that the Jazz were a better team than the Bulls.

You just rationalized a season ending injury, no matter when, with dribbling off your foot. That sounds really similiar to me. :rolleyes:

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:22 PM
Then philly was just meant to win.


So are you now saying God, or Stern, decides who's going to win, and it doesn't matter about anything else?

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:23 PM
So are you now saying God, or Stern, decides who's going to win, and it doesn't matter about anything else?

No, I'm saying you do your best with what you have. You lay all your cards on the table, and the chips fall where they may.

Nobody is ever GUARENTEED anything. You can plot and strategize and work hard, but all of those things only raise your percentages. In the end, you can't control everything.

My favorite cliche of all time is, "Play a good game, and may the best team win."

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:26 PM
I went through far too many unexplainable heartbreaking losses as a kid to believe that there's an excuse for everything. Sometimes, you have to fight fate, too.

The Celtics and the Lakers had that aura of greatness. Those were TRULY great teams, and they got the breaks because they worked hard for them. They understood the one thing that all great teams know: that at some point, they were going to need a break, and they worked their butts off every year, so when opportunity came, they would take advantage of it.

I could go on for decades on NBA history, and just about every good team in history has had fortunate breaks. But only the great teams consistantly took advantage of them.

For example, the LA Lakers in game 6 of the 1980 finals. The 6-time league MVP goes down with a sprained ankle, and the Lakers could have cried about how life sucks and gone down meekly in Philly. Instead, Magic Johnson turned it into a rallying cry and mde it into an advantage. Philly never knew what hit them.

Now I ask, who exactly was unlucky, philly or LA?

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:30 PM
You've still danced around answering Hicks question, or it was answered without saying that was your answer.

If Jordan goes down in game 2, and the Jazz end up winning the series, you'd actually believe that the Jazz where a better team?

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:32 PM
You've still danced around answering Hicks question, or it was answered without saying that was your answer.

If Jordan goes down in game 2, and the Jazz end up winning the series, you'd actually believe that the Jazz where a better team?

For the rest of the series? Yes.

If Jordan is injured and cannot play, he no longer becomes part of the equation. Period. If the Bulls can't overcome that, they simply didn't deserve to win.

That's no different than the Pistons signing Bender, and then me telling you guys how the pistons are a much more talented team, even though Bender spends the entire year on IR with a paper cut. "Oh, well if Bender were healthy...." Well, he isn't. Too bad.

Unless we're playing a video game, no team in the NBA is ever %100 healthy, and it's foolhardy to compare teams at %100, because it will never happen.

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:38 PM
For the rest of the series? Yes.

If Jordan is injured and cannot play, he no longer becomes part of the equation. Period. If the Bulls can't overcome that, they simply didn't deserve to win.

That's no different than the Pistons signing Bender, and then me telling you guys how the pistons are a much more talented team, even though Bender spends the entire year on IR with a paper cut.

Unless we're playing a video game, no team in the NBA is ever %100 healthy, and it's foolhardy to compare teams at %100, because it will never happen.

So they win because they were a better team, not because the best player on the other team was injured? I see.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:40 PM
So they win because they were a better team, not because the best player on the other team was injured? I see.

Exactly.

And if Ifs and Buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.....;)

If Jordan goes down, and the Jazz take advantage, the Jazz become the better team. The Jazz were obviously a very good team to begin with, or they wouldn't have made it to the finals to begin with. Jordan's injury didn't suddenly make the Jazz a championship-calibur team. They were already there.

Again, I go back to the 1980 finals. You can't tell me the Bulls would somehow be in worse shape. They would have a chance to change things up, and turn it into an advantage, but they could always sit on their laurels and cry about injuries.....

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:45 PM
Exactly.

And if Ifs and Buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.....;)

If Jordan goes down, and the Jazz take advantage, the Jazz become the better team. The Jazz were obviously a very good team to begin with, or they wouldn't have made it to the finals to begin with. Jordan's injury didn't suddenly make the Jazz a championship-calibur team. They wer ealready there.


So because of the injury, the Jazz become the better team? That's contradicting yourself to the fullest.

They either win, because they're just better. Or they win because the better team was hit with an injury that couldn't be overcome.

You can combine the two, but the injury comes first. It's the reason for why they'd be better, not just the icing on the cake.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:46 PM
Then philly was just meant to win. That the Pistons might be the better team when %100 healthy is TOTALLY irrelevant.

But you do admit Detroit is the better team. Progress is being made. ;)

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:49 PM
So because of the injury, the Jazz become the better team? That's contradicting yourself to the fullest.

They either win, because they're just better. Or they win because the better team was hit with an injury that couldn't be overcome.

You can combine the two, but the injury comes first. It's the reason for why they'd be better, not just the icing on the cake.

How about, they won because they scored more points than the other team?

Injuries don't determine series. If a team isn't mentally tough enough to overcome a key injury, thats on them.

Oddly enough, the Bulls lost Pippen to a bad back in the very same series you talk about. The Bulls played without a future hall of famer for most of the game.

The fact you have totally fogotten about it is proof that tough, prepared teams overcome injuries and turn them into advantages.

They only time you really hear about injuries is from the team that loses.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 01:49 PM
I went through far too many unexplainable heartbreaking losses as a kid to believe that there's an excuse for everything. Sometimes, you have to fight fate, too.

It's not about excuses, it's about honest explanations.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 01:52 PM
It's not about excuses, it's about honest explanations.


ex·cuse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-skyz)
tr.v. ex·cused, ex·cus·ing, ex·cus·es

1.
1. To explain (a fault or an offense) in the hope of being forgiven or understood: He arrived late and excused his tardiness in a flimsy manner.

No matter how you slice it, explanations are just excuses wrapped in a prittier package.

I'm all about breaking games down, and finding plays in the game that one team simply took advantage of, but "explaining away" a loss doesn't seem too different from excusing it, from my POV.

I don't EVER like to hear, "the better team lost." That's the dumbest quote in sports.

Um, if you were the better team, you would have WON the game. So no, you weren't the better team on that night. Sorry.

At some point, credit has to be paid to the team that won. It might not be fun, it may leave a very bitter taste in your mouth, but in the end, it's the right and just thing to do.

Since86
06-20-2005, 01:57 PM
How about, they won because they scored more points than the other team?

Injuries don't determine series. If a team isn't mentally tough enough to overcome a key injury, thats on them.

Oddly enough, the Bulls lost Pippen to a bad back in the very same series you talk about. The Bulls played without a future hall of famer for most of the game.

The fact you have totally fogotten about it is proof that tough, prepared teams overcome injuries and turn them into advantages.

They only time you really hear about injuries is from the team that loses.


Talk about just sprinting out of the corner that you put yourself into.

Injuries on opposing teams isn't necessarily a negative. Yes, injuries are apart of the game, which you have to get over. But to say that injuries don't determine outcomes of games is down right absurd.

Since86
06-20-2005, 02:02 PM
No matter how you slice it, explanations are just excuses wrapped in a prittier package.

I'm all about breaking games down, and finding plays in the game that one team simply took advantage of, but "explaining away" a loss doesn't seem too different from excusing it, from my POV.

I don't EVER like to hear, "the better team lost." That's the dumbest quote in sports.

Um, if you were the better team, you would have WON the game. So no, you weren't the better team on that night. Sorry.

At some point, credit has to be paid to the team that won. It might not be fun, it may leave a very bitter taste in your mouth, but in the end, it's the right and just thing to do.

So the best team always wins in the NCAA tournament? Why are they're such things as upsets then? Why did the NE Patroits lose to the Miami Dolphins?

I'm trying to stay away from the Piston-Pacer thing, because I'm trying to take emotions out of it. I've lost many of games to teams that we had previously spanked out of the gym. I've beat some teams, then wonder after the game how in the world that just happened. It's not a slight, that's how sports work.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 02:02 PM
No matter how you slice it, explanations are just excuses wrapped in a prittier package.

Not to me. Definitions may not back this up, but I've always believed the difference between excuses and explanations to be that excuses are weak/lazy reasons for not doing something like "I was tired" or "I hate doing that", whereas explanations were "I broke my leg, so I couldn't do my cardio" or "my mom was in the hospital, so I couldn't attend". That's basically how I seperate the words.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 02:04 PM
So the best team always wins in the NCAA tournament? Why are they're such things as upsets then? Why did the NE Patroits lose to the Miami Dolphins?

I'm trying to stay away from the Piston-Pacer thing, because I'm trying to take emotions out of it. I've lost many of games to teams that we had previously spanked out of the gym. I've beat some teams, then wonder after the game how in the world that just happened. It's not a slight, that's how sports work.

Exactly. Sports is all about the best team NOT always winning. Sometimes David beats Goliath. That doesn't make David "Goliath" just because David won.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 02:04 PM
Talk about just sprinting out of the corner that you put yourself into.

Injuries on opposing teams isn't necessarily a negative. Yes, injuries are apart of the game, which you have to get over. But to say that injuries don't determine outcomes of games is down right absurd.

No, injuries don't decide games. They only change the scenarios.

If a player goes down, his teamates have the opportunity to take charge and win that game. The game doesn't simply end because one guy got hurt.

There have been a lot of good teams who have won games BECAUSE their best player got hurt, and they rallied around him and took the other team by surprise.

Since86
06-20-2005, 02:04 PM
"I broke my leg, so I couldn't do my cardio"

:rolleyes: You have two legs. I see people with one leg going about doing their normal tasks all the time. Just suck it up, and quit making excuses. :rolleyes:

Since86
06-20-2005, 02:20 PM
If a player goes down, his teamates have the opportunity to take charge and win that game. The game doesn't simply end because one guy got hurt.


No one is saying that it does. Are the Pistons a better team with Rasheed playing, or Darko? Woud the Pistons have a better chance of beating SA with Rasheed or Darko? The way you're talking, is that a team should be able to plug any of their bench players into the lineup, and not lose a beat.

Any team, whether it's the Pistons or the Clippers, is going to become worse if they lose key players. It's fact, not opinion. If you're this good with a full lineup, you're not at the same level with an injury laced one.

Since86
06-20-2005, 02:26 PM
I wish I had a faster connection. I'd dig up some threads when Larry wasn't able to coach, and the Pistons were stuck with their assistant. You complained that it was a disadvantage, and that they weren't as good without Larry. Yet you just dismiss injuries like they're nothing.

sc
06-20-2005, 02:44 PM
You are comparing two different scenarios:

The first one is injured, Jordan's ACL, the other is hurt, Wade, Shaq, etal. All players are hurt they are not all injured.

Since86
06-20-2005, 02:48 PM
You are comparing two different scenarios:

The first one is injured, Jordan's ACL, the other is hurt, Wade, Shaq, etal. All plays are hurt they are not all injured.

Being hurt, and being injuried are two different things? How so? Maybe different degrees, but still one in the same.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 02:50 PM
You are comparing two different scenarios:

The first one is injured, Jordan's ACL, the other is hurt, Wade, Shaq, etal. All players are hurt they are not all injured.

It's just different shades of the same color. One means you can't play at all, the other means you can play, but you can't do it as well as before. That can mean all the difference.

Fool
06-20-2005, 02:59 PM
Where does degraded level of play due to age come in to play?

Does one say "Miami would have won with the Shaq of three year ago." If not, then why are they allowed to consider "a Shaq two weeks ago" (before he was injured)? Exactly how long in the past are we allowed to consider as a players skill level?

For the record I am generally on the side of "Yes, injuries can decide a series." However, I also believe that all that means is that its the players responsibility to play at their high level AND NOT GET INJURED. If a player can't accomplish that, then they aren't able to do what it takes to win.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 03:00 PM
Where does degraded level of play due to age come in to play?

Does one say "Miami would have won with the Shaq of three year ago." If not, then why are they allowed to consider "a Shaq two weeks ago" (before he was injured)? Exactly how long in the past are we allowed to consider as a players skill level?

Age is a constant; a given. That's not the same as hurting yourself to the point where you either can't play, or can't play as effectively.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 03:01 PM
However, I also believe that all that means is that its the players responsibility to play at their high level AND NOT GET INJURED. If a player can't accomplish that, then they aren't able to do what it takes to win.

So I should blame Jermaine for his shoulder injury? Reggie for his eye-socket?

Cactus Jax
06-20-2005, 03:08 PM
This series is going to end like the Pacers/Lakers series, Spurs in 6.

The Pistons will put up a great effort in game 6, probably be leading for 95% of the game like the Pacers were, but in the last 5-6 minutes the champs will take over at home and win the prize.

That game 5 was probably the best Finals game since the infamous game 4 of the 2000 Finals.

Fool
06-20-2005, 03:10 PM
Age is a constant; a given. That's not the same as hurting yourself to the point where you either can't play, or can't play as effectively.


Injuries are just as constant and given. Each happens every year and neither is so concrete as to be counted on to effect any one player at any certain time or in any certain way. In many cases they are one and the same.

As for "should you blame ..." I am not calling to blame anyone. However, unless the player is not an active participant in the play in which they got hurt (say by sitting on the bench when someone flies into them) then they were where they were for a reason. If it ends up in injury, its unfortunate, but no one else was in that position (or at least, someone else was not in that possition). Is Karl Malone the luckiest guy in the NBA (until his final year) or did he actively avoid injury. Does he get no credit for not being injured?

Hicks
06-20-2005, 03:19 PM
Injuries are just as constant and given. Each happens every year and neither is so concrete as to be counted on to effect any one player at any certain time or in any certain way. In many cases they are one and the same.

Seems like poor logic to me. Everyone will get older, and each player will eventually not be able to play because of it. Players may or may not get hurt to where they lose their effectiveness, or can't even step onto the floor. That's not a given or a constant.

The only part of it that is, is that yes, SOMEONE will get injuried, but that's more due to the fact that there are so many players playing so many games, it's bound to happen, not that it's meant to happen. And certainly not to the same people. Exceptions exist, of course, but that's just what they are, exceptions.


Is Karl Malone the luckiest guy in the NBA (until his final year) or did he actively avoid injury. Does he get no credit for not being injured?

Likely it's a combination. He was in extremely good shape, usually was the one CAUSING the severe injuries with his nasty habits, and luck comes in to play. Same went for Reggie Miller; sure he was in great shape, but eventually he got knocked around. The eye socket was one, the ankle problems later on where another. Otherwise he was usually just fine. Those injuries weren't his fault.

Since86
06-20-2005, 03:19 PM
Injuries are just as constant and given. Each happens every year and neither is so concrete as to be counted on to effect any one player at any certain time or in any certain way. In many cases they are one and the same.

As for "should you blame ..." I am not calling to blame anyone. However, unless the player is not an active participant in the play in which they got hurt (say by sitting on the bench when someone flies into them) then they were where they were for a reason. If it ends up in injury, its unfortunate, but no one else was in that position (or at least, someone else was not in that possition). Is Karl Malone the luckiest guy in the NBA (until his final year) or did he actively avoid injury. Does he get no credit for not being injured?

Injuries are just as constant and just as much as aging? Are you serious? Aging is an everyday thing, and happens to everyone. Injuries hit randomly, hardly constantly. They're not even close to being one in the same. Aging deterioration takes time, whereas injuries strike instantaneously. Players tend to get better as they age, then start to regress. Injuries hardly make players better for a time. Aging never stops, and is something you're capable of making adjustments too. Injuries never have the same time intervals, and if you're injuried bad enough you can't do anything, let alone adjust too.

You can't blame anyone for playing, and getting injured. Just like you can't praise someone for not being injured. 95% of the time, it's events that you can't control.

sc
06-20-2005, 03:45 PM
Injuries are not random they all have a cause

Age and Injury are a very related item. The older you get the longer it takes to recovery.

You can most certainly control injury, ever hear of workout injurys or injurys caused by not being in shape.

Hicks
06-20-2005, 04:05 PM
Yes, I'll grant you those. But I'm talking about the ones that you can't prepare for. Like JO's shoulder.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-20-2005, 04:08 PM
ahhhhhhhhh! No more piston gloating! no more "The champs" references and no more of those damn belts! hahah big shot rob strikes again! kstat must be about to hang himself :)

Kstat
06-20-2005, 04:10 PM
kstat must be about to hang himself :)

You wish.

Go back and read the thread. I'm very satisfied right now.

SamBear
06-20-2005, 04:16 PM
That was a great game.

Pistons will take the next two, though.


Can I quote you on this....

Fool
06-20-2005, 05:05 PM
Injuries are not random they all have a cause

Age and Injury are a very related item. The older you get the longer it takes to recovery.

You can most certainly control injury, ever hear of workout injurys or injurys caused by not being in shape.

Exactly, and they are more related then that (I can assure you Since 86, I am entirely serious).

Conditioning and working out stave off both injury and degredation in ability due to age. Injuries can stick a player suddenly (in the case of Reggie and the eye socket) or they can build (as in a small pain that grows as its played on). Just as age can hit a player all at once (as in a player who comes back one year and that quick step they relied on is gone and so is their game) or it can build over the years (as in any player that slowly lost their effectiveness). Is Bender always injured or are have his joints degraded as he grew and aged?

Injuries aren't constant?
Players take blows everyday. Did the simple act of rising up for a jump shot suddenly happen to produce a rib muscle sprain for Wade or did his constrant strain on his muscles finally build to the point that he "sprained" the muscle?

Who is to "blame"? Again, I'm not blaming anyone. But its ridiculous to equate blamelessness to not playing a part in the situation. "95% of the time, it's events that you can't control"? Are you telling me that Wade didn't go up for that shot? That Manu didn't dribble to the right of Tayshaun? Sure they didn't know the injury would happen or the strain would take its toll at that moment, but the instance was hardly out of their control. There were plenty of players on the court at the same instant who weren't in the situation, who didn't push themselves to the same extent in all those previous games. Perhaps, who didn't skip that workout or eat those carb (or what have you). Not being your fault and not having any control over the situation are not absolutely congruous.

"The only part of it that is, is that yes, SOMEONE will get injuried, but that's more due to the fact that there are so many players playing so many games, it's bound to happen, not that it's meant to happen. And certainly not to the same people. Exceptions exist, of course, but that's just what they are, exceptions"

I'm not really sure how people are meant to age but not injure but in general I would disagree with the paragraph. How does a pitcher suddenly dislocate his arm when throwing a pitch in exactly the same way that he's always thrown it. Injuries happen because bodies take punishment just from the act of playing. If players continue to play they will get hurt just as if players continue to live, they will age.

Aging itself injures and injuries age a player.

OnlyPacersLeft
06-20-2005, 05:05 PM
Can I quote you on this....
oh man you better.
Hah pistons take the next 2!? that's funny.

Fool
06-20-2005, 06:03 PM
First of all, I have nothing to be a prick about.

And its great you can be a hard-*** being a ****ing computer............

Also, beleive it or not not all NBA fans post here at PD, there is more to the NBA then PacersDigest............................

Are you serious?

Get over yourself.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 06:05 PM
Fool, VA, I don't even think you guys are even arguing over the same thing.

Fool
06-20-2005, 06:09 PM
Fool, VA, I don't even think you guys are even arguing over the same thing.

That wouldn't surprise me seeing as I have no clue as to when I was being a hard-*** nor when I made statements that assumed the entire NBA watching public posted on the PD.

able
06-20-2005, 06:15 PM
down boys DOWN!

is there to much testosteron in the air there ?


chill out, relax, it's summer, nothing to get all excited about.

Kstat
06-20-2005, 06:23 PM
down boys DOWN!

is there to much testosteron in the air there ?


chill out, relax, it's summer, nothing to get all excited about.

:buddies:

Fool
06-20-2005, 06:23 PM
Its quite simple, when you decided you wanted to start talking talking trash over the internet...

I've edited this post. I don't believe I did trash talk and I think my posts show that. However, I apologize for whatever I said that offended you.

PacerSoul
06-20-2005, 06:57 PM
You guys take this too seriously. We are on an online message board for Jesus Christ's sake.

DisplacedKnick
06-20-2005, 07:34 PM
You guys take this too seriously. We are on an online message board for Jesus Christ's sake.

Is that what we're on here for? Da ... Uh, golly.

Since86
06-21-2005, 11:15 AM
Exactly, and they are more related then that (I can assure you Since 86, I am entirely serious).



Conditioning and working out stave off both injury and degredation in ability due to age. Injuries can stick a player suddenly (in the case of Reggie and the eye socket) or they can build (as in a small pain that grows as its played on). Just as age can hit a player all at once (as in a player who comes back one year and that quick step they relied on is gone and so is their game) or it can build over the years (as in any player that slowly lost their effectiveness). Is Bender always injured or are have his joints degraded as he grew and aged?

Yes, conditioning can help prevent injuries, but knick-knack ones. Being in tip-top shape wasn't going to stop JO from hyper-extending his knee, or from Jordan tearing his ACL in Hicks setup. If I'm remembering correctly, Bender is a situation that he can't help one way or another, which is why LB has came out and said it's hard to be upset with him.


Injuries aren't constant?
Players take blows everyday. Did the simple act of rising up for a jump shot suddenly happen to produce a rib muscle sprain for Wade or did his constrant strain on his muscles finally build to the point that he "sprained" the muscle?.

Injuries aren't constant, as having a constant time variable. Aging is a procees that you can count on every single second. Injuries come and go, with no set time period inbetween. There isn't a table that this player is going to get injured at this time, and then again at this time. You know when you're aging, because you always are. You'll never know when you're going to get injured.



Who is to "blame"? Again, I'm not blaming anyone. But its ridiculous to equate blamelessness to not playing a part in the situation. "95% of the time, it's events that you can't control"? Are you telling me that Wade didn't go up for that shot? That Manu didn't dribble to the right of Tayshaun? Sure they didn't know the injury would happen or the strain would take its toll at that moment, but the instance was hardly out of their control. There were plenty of players on the court at the same instant who weren't in the situation, who didn't push themselves to the same extent in all those previous games. Perhaps, who didn't skip that workout or eat those carb (or what have you). Not being your fault and not having any control over the situation are not absolutely congruous.

I'm telling you that 95% of injuries, are spained ankles and other injuries that are flukes. How many times do you think Wade does the same exact thing, without being injured? How many times for Manu? Maybe players should avoid all contact, so it isn't likely that they'll be hurt. Injuries are out of your control. If you do the exact same thing time after time after time, and on the 1000th time you get injured, are you going to link that action to your injury or being a fluke accident? Wade is going to continue to take that shot, and Manu is going to continue to attack the exact same way they did before their injuries, and I bet you that they don't get injured the same way the very next time.



"The only part of it that is, is that yes, SOMEONE will get injuried, but that's more due to the fact that there are so many players playing so many games, it's bound to happen, not that it's meant to happen. And certainly not to the same people. Exceptions exist, of course, but that's just what they are, exceptions"

I'm not really sure how people are meant to age but not injure but in general I would disagree with the paragraph. How does a pitcher suddenly dislocate his arm when throwing a pitch in exactly the same way that he's always thrown it. Injuries happen because bodies take punishment just from the act of playing. If players continue to play they will get hurt just as if players continue to live, they will age.

Aging itself injures and injuries age a player.

Aging is a constant, happens every sec, min, hour, day, week, month, year, decade, so forth. Again, injuries don't have a constant time variable. You injure yourself do to fluke accidents more other than not. Pitchers dislocate their arms from strain first, not age. That's why you see pitchers getting Tommy Johns surgery done when their 16-17 yrs old now. I hardly think it's because their so old.