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View Full Version : My Jermaine O'Neal theory.......



Peck
05-19-2005, 03:25 AM
I think it's time to give him the same speech that Larry Brown gave to Rik Smits.

Everybody kept telling Rik to put on weight so that he could bang with the big guys down low & become the low post center we always wanted him to be.

It never worked.

Larry came to town & in thier first meeting he told Rik to drop down in weight & concentrate more on speed. Speed & Rik Smits really just don't go together, however losing the weight did put Rik at the right size to be effective for about 6 more years.

I think when all is said & done with Jermaine the same thing will apply to him. Jermaine went out & put on probably 20-30 lbs of muscle over the past two summers because he felt he needed the weight to battle in the post. At first I thought this was a good thing because I figured the size would help him vs. the Pistons & for that matter every other team in the NBA. However I've lately come to the conclusion that J.O. just doesn't carry the weight well.

Don't get me wrong he looks superb but IMO, it has affected his ability to jump & defying all human logic it has actually made him a worse rebounder.

There is a reason for that. He is not a postional or even a fundamentally sound rebounder. He has always relied on his ability to jump high to get the boards & right now he just can't jump as high as he used to & the older he gets the worse that will become.

Now I think J.O. should be applauded for reshaping his body & I think the Pacers management should be booed for making it so that J.O. needed to reshape his body.

J.O. has for the past two years begged anybody who would listen to him that we needed another big body to help him in the post. But all we had was Jeff Foster & even though he has his advantages Jeff is not a post player & thus it forced J.O. to be one when in fact he isn't one either on the defensive end.

Now we have Dale & hopefully next season we will have him to & then right after that if all works well we will have David Harrison. Both of these guys are big enough & strong enough to guard the post thus allowing J.O. to switch back over the the weaker inside player.

I even think it would help his defense to be thinner (God help me for saying that because I was an advocate for getting stronger) because he is really one of the best weak side shot blockers in the NBA but to do that he needs to be able to rotate fast & jump high. Right now he can't do either very well.

I still beleive that this off-season securing Dale & even getting another post defender is really a top priority. No matter how this season ends.

pacerDU
05-19-2005, 04:08 AM
Very true Peck.

It's a bit of a compromise here. The extra strength has certainly helped him in regard to gaining low-post position, where as in the past he could be pushed out (although if he keeps taking these fadaways it's not going to matter). But it definitely has hindered his leaping ability.

I remember Jermaine in his first couple years here getting up for some high-flying dunks, but you don't see that from him anymore. I also remember him in the Basketball World Champs (I think it was that) making some HUGE blocks on the fastbreak and the like. He was very mobile.

I think the extra muscle does weigh him down a bit. Now the problem is if he was to drop some weight, would it affect his ability as a low-post scorer?

It's strange because you'd think if he works on his lower body as much as his upper body, it wouldn't make a difference, but it does. I've experienced the same thing. A few years ago I was very skinny and quite athletic, but since spending a few years in the weights room I feel much less agile and explosive, even though my leg strength gains have been as much as my upper body.

Good point Peck. I think it is definitely a matter of compromise though, he's got a skinny build, so he does need some of the muscle.

SoupIsGood
05-19-2005, 06:45 AM
28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....

indygeezer
05-19-2005, 07:40 AM
You all make some good points. I think the problems are made more noticeable right now because he isn't being as effective. I wonder if it might be because he's doing more things with his left hand dominant? Rather that really extending his right up, is he holding it back just a fraction to favor it slightly? Is he out of position for the rebounds and blocks or is he not reaching as far....or, perhaps (subconciously) not trying as hard to avoid pain?

I haven't been to any of the PO games to see for myself, what do ya think..is he extending the arm fully?

Unclebuck
05-19-2005, 08:36 AM
I'm generally not in favor of players gaining weight. Even if it's all muscle. A person's body structure is made to carry only so much weight, and J.O's body structure is very thin, so if he puts on more weight then his body can handle, injuries will result.

pacerbob
05-19-2005, 08:49 AM
i.e. J Bender

beast23
05-19-2005, 10:09 AM
If we have a strong, bulky center then I would go for a 245# Jermaine. Better quickness gives him an advantage out on the floor over other PFs. Right now, JO couldn't get around Sheed if his life depended on it.

As Peck mentioned, his ability to help and block shots is certainly facilitated by better quickness.

A full wish-list to me is:
1. Re-sign DD.
2a. Re-sign JJ.
2b. Extend Freddie.
3a. Interior defender (if Artest stays).
3b. Interor defender/scorer (if Artest goes).
4. A quick guard to come off the bench that is a defensive specialist... our second unit already has enough scoring ability in Freddie and JJ. We just need a stopper. This team has always had problems with keeping opposing guards out of the paint.

Reggie is retiring. Gill won't return. Edwards shouldn't return.

The players that most of us would like to see traded are probably Pollard, Croshere and Bender. But who else would have to thrown in with one or more of them to make a trade work? Is it even possible?

3Ball
05-19-2005, 10:25 AM
28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....

I think this says is all in terms of effectiveness.

What I'm more worried about is injury. It's clear now that if JO spends his time banging while playing major minutes, he won't be healthy at this point in the season. I think we need to shuffle the team just a little so he and Jamal don't play major minutes most games. Even if we drop a few rungs, we need to remember the playoffs are what counts. One road win in the playoffs can counteract 82 games of positioning.

Jon Theodore
05-19-2005, 10:28 AM
TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

tins/aj/
Sjack/Fred/
Ron/Jalen/JJ
Bosh/Foster/JJ
Dale/David/Pollard?

Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.

beast23
05-19-2005, 10:34 AM
I think that a leaner JO also plays into what the Pacers need to overcome the Pistons:

1. More scoring in the paint.
2. Better perimeter defense.
3. Better perimeter shooting accuracy.

A leaner (and healthier) JO would certainly lend to accomplishing #1, and through his scoring more in the paint, would also have a positive influence on #3.

I think you build teams to win championships. But you must also have an eye on the major ECS foes as well. Detroit, Miami and possibly Chicago.

brichard
05-19-2005, 10:42 AM
TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

tins/aj/
Sjack/Fred/
Ron/Jalen/JJ
Bosh/Foster/JJ
Dale/David/Pollard?

Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.

If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.

indygeezer
05-19-2005, 10:47 AM
If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.


So would Larry Bird.

indytoad
05-19-2005, 11:50 AM
TRADE JO WITH THOSE PLAYERS. I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.

I know everyone thinks a team with Sjack/Rose wouldn't work. But I think it would work VERY well bringing Jalen off the bench for Ron/Sjax.

Trade Jo/Croshere/Bender for Bosh/Jalen/Marshall

or something like that. With Bosh we get his great potential, I guarantee Jalen would perform much better in Indy than he is in Toronto...like Vince Carter.

Having Jalen come off the bench means we would always have scoring options. Look at this rotation

tins/aj/
Sjack/Fred/
Ron/Jalen/JJ
Bosh/Foster/JJ
Dale/David/Pollard?

Assuming we draft a BIG guy that trade would be awesome. But this is all a dream, literally...I had a dream this exact trade went down and it was the best dream I've ever had. I have no idea if the salaries even come close, but like I said it was all just a dream. And we can never have too many players from the 2000 team.

Would Toronto even trade Bosh for JO? Let alone Bosh, Jalen and Marshall? I highly doubt they would.

I'd love to see Bosh here though.

IndyToad
My warranty covers corrosion

Bball
05-19-2005, 11:59 AM
One road win in the playoffs can counteract 82 games of positioning.

I get your point but that isn't exactly accurate because your reg season record will also determine 'who' you'll be playing. Slip far enough and you'll open the playoffs against the #1 seeded team and have a tough row to hoe all the way to the ECF's.

-Bball

sweabs
05-19-2005, 12:03 PM
Thank you, Peck. Same things I have been stating all year long - although some say I have 'left my brains at the door' ;) I'd like to go back and see the athletic Jermaine, who could actually jump higher than Greg Ostertag.

And, although I don't want to get this thread even more off-track, I can't overlook the fact that my dream-trade has been brought up. Let me just say this: Toronto is very worried that they won't be able to keep Bosh.....I'll leave it at that.

rabid
05-19-2005, 12:09 PM
I'd LOVE to see us get Chris Bosh/Jalen somehow.
:puke:

Anthem
05-19-2005, 12:11 PM
Peck, I completely agree. I've made this point before, but you made it better.

Hicks, do we still have the Jermaine O'Neal video made by those Laker fans? I think you did a remix of it. The video (besides being fun to watch) is pretty instructive, because it shows how athletic and fast Jermaine used to be before he bulked up.

sweabs
05-19-2005, 12:12 PM
Peck, I completely agree. I've made this point before, but you made it better.

Hicks, do we still have the Jermaine O'Neal video made by those Laker fans? I think you did a remix of it. The video (besides being fun to watch) is pretty instructive, because it shows how athletic and fast Jermaine used to be before he bulked up.

Dang, I used to have that one before the computer self-destruction. Oh, how I miss those days. I actually saw Jermaine dunk the ball!

PacerMan
05-19-2005, 01:25 PM
I'm generally not in favor of players gaining weight. Even if it's all muscle. A person's body structure is made to carry only so much weight, and J.O's body structure is very thin, so if he puts on more weight then his body can handle, injuries will result.

That's a small risk compared to the benefits. ANYONE benefits from more muscle. Any task then takes less % of muscle effort to accomplish. Endurance being affected by how much energy it's taking to do tasks, like blocking out,getting post position,playing defense,rebounding etc all take less out of you if you are stronger. As long as it's not over done like body builders there is nothing but benefit to being stronger. Doing load bearing exercise and weight training makes even your skeletal system stronger as you place increased load demands on it. The lower body loads are greater for sure, both muscle loading and the weight bearing of that extra muscle. But not even close to offsetting the increased performance level benefits.
As Jermaine has had some knee and back problems it's likely he wouldn't be skying like he used to even if he was 20lbs lighter. Heck, when my back is flared up I can't get off the ground. Some of that comes in time and games to most NBA'ers. Lots of nasty falls when you get 3' off the ground and contacting other large bodies. Especially when you're 240lbs or more. Refs let the big guys beat on each other a lot more than the guards out front.
I too hope to see him a bit lighter when Harrison takes over the middle :)
But it'll be for quickness reasons. He's not close to being too big for his frame.
Don't forget that he's a recognized BIG STAR now. Everyones beating on him now in an effort to get him off his game.

beast23
05-19-2005, 01:56 PM
P-Man I don't agree.

JO at 260 is not as quick as JO was at 245. At least I'm guessing that is the case because he rarely blows by other PFs anymore.

And that is exactly where I see the advantages of JO being without the extra 15-20# of muscle. If he didn't have it, he would gain quickness to be able to get around his man, thereby causing a defensive problem in the paint for the opponent... probably resulting on more fouls, and more trips to the FT line for the Pacers.

BillS
05-19-2005, 02:10 PM
But Jermaine is a Power Forward. I think he needs strength more than speed.

I agree with what others have said, let's look at knee/back/shoulder as the slowown reasons. Imagine if he lost that muscle and became not just creaky "slow" but also got pushed around in the post.

Anthem
05-19-2005, 02:27 PM
But Jermaine is a Power Forward. I think he needs strength more than speed.

I agree with what others have said, let's look at knee/back/shoulder as the slowown reasons. Imagine if he lost that muscle and became not just creaky "slow" but also got pushed around in the post.

I wish we had that video of Jermaine. It was heartbreaking looking at all of those dominant moves and realizing he can't do them any more.

Since86
05-19-2005, 02:43 PM
But Jermaine is a Power Forward. I think he needs strength more than speed.

I agree with what others have said, let's look at knee/back/shoulder as the slowown reasons. Imagine if he lost that muscle and became not just creaky "slow" but also got pushed around in the post.

:cough: Amare :cough:

He doesn't over power anyone, he jumps over their head.

Kstat
05-19-2005, 02:47 PM
:cough: Amare :cough:

He doesn't over power anyone, he jumps over their head.

...so if you want to hire Doug Moe to coach your team, itd be a perfect fit....

In case you havent noticed, Stoudemire gets beaten up a lot on defense.....

Mourning
05-19-2005, 02:52 PM
28 PPG 46.6 FG% 9.25 RPG (1.75 on the offensive end) 2.75 BPG .67 SPG 2 APG 3.16 TOPG 7.3-9.3 on FT's (shot 79.3%)

These are JO's numbers from his healthy run of 20 games or so this season.

These are consistent with something I've seen all year: Jermaine is grabbing less rebounds this year, but it isn't on the defensive side of the ball. His offensive rebounding is down by a lot this year, and I assume that is because he's had to shoot so much more now.

So, uh, all in all, I still think Jermaine can rebound as well as he once did, if we just have enough guys healthy to take some of the offensive pressure off him....

I think we have a winner here ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

PaceBalls
05-19-2005, 02:53 PM
Peck, This is what I've been saying for the last week now in numerous posts. I remember all the chat about JO gainin lbs over the summer, everyone seemed to think it was a good idea as if it would make him a better post player or something, but he was already a great post player. What made him so great was how quick and versatile he was, almost a SF athleticsm in a big PF body.
I thought it was bad then that he gained that extra 20lbs as I do now. He needs to get that spring back in his step, otherwise the next few years are gonna be tough for him and for us watching him play as he becomes more and more 1 dimensional on offense. ala fadeaway jumpers

Skaut_Ech
05-19-2005, 03:07 PM
I think it's time to give him the same speech that Larry Brown gave to Rik Smits.

Everybody kept telling Rik to put on weight so that he could bang with the big guys down low & become the low post center we always wanted him to be.

It never worked.

Larry came to town & in thier first meeting he told Rik to drop down in weight & concentrate more on speed. Speed & Rik Smits really just don't go together, however losing the weight did put Rik at the right size to be effective for about 6 more years.

I think when all is said & done with Jermaine the same thing will apply to him. Jermaine went out & put on probably 20-30 lbs of muscle over the past two summers because he felt he needed the weight to battle in the post. At first I thought this was a good thing because I figured the size would help him vs. the Pistons & for that matter every other team in the NBA. However I've lately come to the conclusion that J.O. just doesn't carry the weight well.

Don't get me wrong he looks superb but IMO, it has affected his ability to jump & defying all human logic it has actually made him a worse rebounder.

There is a reason for that. He is not a postional or even a fundamentally sound rebounder. He has always relied on his ability to jump high to get the boards & right now he just can't jump as high as he used to & the older he gets the worse that will become.

Now I think J.O. should be applauded for reshaping his body & I think the Pacers management should be booed for making it so that J.O. needed to reshape his body.

J.O. has for the past two years begged anybody who would listen to him that we needed another big body to help him in the post. But all we had was Jeff Foster & even though he has his advantages Jeff is not a post player & thus it forced J.O. to be one when in fact he isn't one either on the defensive end.

Now we have Dale & hopefully next season we will have him to & then right after that if all works well we will have David Harrison. Both of these guys are big enough & strong enough to guard the post thus allowing J.O. to switch back over the the weaker inside player.

I even think it would help his defense to be thinner (God help me for saying that because I was an advocate for getting stronger) because he is really one of the best weak side shot blockers in the NBA but to do that he needs to be able to rotate fast & jump high. Right now he can't do either very well.

I still believe that this off-season securing Dale & even getting another post defender is really a top priority. No matter how this season ends.

Phooey!! :tsk: :)

I do not want Jermaine to lose weight. :sumo:

Jermaine's problem is that he needs to evolve and he's not doing that. The extra weight should be an advantage but it's not because Jermaine hasn't adapted his game to it.

Just as an older player learns to adapt his game and quit relying on sheer athleticism, (Remember Dan Majerle? Look how he re-invented himself.) Jermaine needs to reinvent his game to take advantage of his weight.

There aren't a lot of BIG guys who can shoot like Jermaine. If he slims down, he loses part of what should be an advantage.

The reason Jermaine isn't blowing by guys is cause he's trying to play the speed game with extra weight, instead of the crafty game, based on power. Best comparision I can think of is Hakeem. Yeah , Hakeem was a C, not a PF, but at 7'0, 250 pounds, he consistantly blew by guys his whole career. Around JO's same size.

Why?

Footwork! :dance3:

KEEP the weight and adapt, Jermaine, Study tapes of Hakeem. Watch how he manuevered his man to his advantage by sheer footwork and up and under moves. Watch the ball fakes he used.

We talk about how JO holds the ball too long. That's why. He can't blow by his man, so suddenly he stuck with trying to outsmart them and he's not quite sure how to do it.

Bring in a specialized coach to work with him on that. Adapt. ADAPT!!

To me, if he slims back down, he takes a step backwards and is stunting his growth and potential as a low post dominating presence.

As to your Smits comparision, there was something equally, if not more important that happened to Rik, that I think elevated his game.

Bill Walton.

Yeah, I know some of you are going to groan. You only think of the loudmouth who grates, but how many of you truly remember Walton the player? He was a freaking load. And he did it with excellent footwork and hustle. You think Foster is scrappy, you haven't seen anything.

So anyways, that summer, Walton came in and tutored Rik on proper footwork and low post moves. Ordinarily, I don't attribute an inordinate amount of gravity to off-season coaching like that, but Rik's game changed after that, I swear. He sudddenly had moves he didn't have before. Yeah, the weight loss helped his game, in term of stress to his joints, but I think Walton had a huge part in his career lasting longer, too. By not playing a power game and playing with finese, but decisive finese, he saved the wear and tear of being a banger like the staff wanted him to be.

All Jermaine needs is a specialized coach to teach him to adapt his game to his size. I think if that happens, he truly can become dominant as a low post player, instead of merely a threat.

Kstat
05-19-2005, 03:10 PM
how many of you truly remember Walton the player. He was a freaking load.

Yeah, I hear it took two, sometimes even three trainers to carry his *** off the floor every 5 games.....



KEEP the weight and adapt, Jermaine, Study tapes of Hakeem.

Thats like giving Freddie Jones a Michael Jordan highlight film and expecting him to score 30 a night.


All Jermaine needs is a specialized coach to teach him to adapt his game to his size.

You mean like Ewing did for Yao?

Skaut_Ech
05-19-2005, 03:15 PM
Yeah, I hear it took two, sometimes even three trainers to carry his *** off the floor every 5 games.....



Thats like giving Freddie Jones a Michael Jordan highlight film and expecting him to score 30 a night.

That's kind of an condescendingly dissmissive and overly simplistic way of looking at it. All I know is Walton has a chamionship ring, is a HOFer & one of the fifty greatest ever. Injuries or not, the guy could bring it.

JO has the tools to elevate his game, if he chooses to...with the extra weight.

I won't even adress that ridiculous Freddie comment.

Kstat
05-19-2005, 03:18 PM
All I know is Walton has a chamionship ring

two, actually.


is a HOFer

For a guy that was healthy for %5 of his career, yes. He was a HOFer.


I won't even adress that ridiculous Freddie comment.

Its about as realistic as expecting jermaine to play like the guy who had the greatest footwork of any 7-footer in history.....

Skaut_Ech
05-19-2005, 03:28 PM
two, actually.



For a guy that was healthy for %5 of his career, yes. He was a HOFer.



Its about as realistic as expecting jermaine to play like the guy who had the greatest footwork of any 7-footer in history.....

Man...did I do something to **** you off to warrant this venom? Wow. I guess I won't stick up for you next time fellow Pacer fans are giving crap.

The Jordan Freddie analogy doesn't make sense because because you can't teach elevated jumping, and athleticism. You CAN teach footwork. Footwork can be studied and attempts can be made to emulate it. Even if Jermaine picks up just a few moves, he will be a much better player.

And it's obvious you either hate Walton or didn't see him play, so I'm not going to try and appeal to an apparently closed mind.

Kstat
05-19-2005, 03:32 PM
feel free to point out the venom in anything I said. I was just making valid points.

Jermaine Oneal actually has very good footwork for his size. But what Olajuwon had was a natural gift. That kind of footwork isnt somethign you can teach, anymore than you can teach a good shooting guard to shoot liek reggie in his prime.

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 03:35 PM
Man...did I do something to **** you off to warrant this venom? Wow. I guess I won't stick up for you next time fellow Pacer fans are giving crap.

The Jordan Freddie analogy doesn't make sense because because you can't teach elevated jumping, and athleticism. You CAN teach footwork. Footwork can be studied and attempts can be made to emulate it. Even if Jermaine picks up just a few moves, he will be a much better player.

And it's obvious you either hate Walton or didn't see him play, so I'm not going to try and appeal to an apparently closed mind.

Perhaps you should check the KStat meter. You'll probably have to wait till after the playoffs. :cool:

Will Galen
05-19-2005, 03:35 PM
You all make some good points. I think the problems are made more noticeable right now because he isn't being as effective. . . .



I don't know if this occurred to anyone else without reading any further, but I think he'll be more effective with Artest back. It always helps when you can't key on one person.

Peck
05-19-2005, 03:39 PM
I have no problem with him adapting, but let's not forget why he put on the weight. He had no low post help on defense & was getting beaten to death by bigger guys.

Now that both Dale & David are here it may mean that J.O. won't have to take on the biggest low post player anymore.

I agree with everything you said, however it does seem like a mental issue with J.O. to overcome.

I will say though that I have never considered J.O. to be a good low post defender. He is a good shot blocker but I don't think he stops big players from getting to the rim & that hasn't changed with the added weight.

Will Galen
05-19-2005, 03:45 PM
If I ever see Jalen Rose in a Pacer uniform again, I will officially join the "Fire Donnie Walsh" bandwagon.


So would Larry Bird.


Huh????

Oh, I got it!

Since Bird is in charge of personnel, Bird would join the bandwagon to fire Walsh because Walsh didn't talk him out of it! (giggle, giggle, snort)

brichard
05-19-2005, 04:02 PM
Man...did I do something to **** you off to warrant this venom? Wow. I guess I won't stick up for you next time fellow Pacer fans are giving crap.

Kstat does this every year when his team is close to closing us out. It is called being a poor winner.

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 04:11 PM
Kstat does this every year when his team is close to closing us out. It is called being a poor winner.

Like I said check the meter.

fwpacerfan
05-19-2005, 04:32 PM
I think JO is at a pretty good weight for him right now. I think the injuries have hurt his perceived athletic ability. The guy is still quicker than most PF's but he has been hurt so he hasn't shown it much. The reason I think his rebounding is down is because he has settled for a lot more fadeaways this year, probably for the same reasons he hasn't been agressive to the basket.

I'll take the JO we saw for a couple months after he came back from suspension. He was a 25/10 guy every night.

Since86
05-19-2005, 05:00 PM
...so if you want to hire Doug Moe to coach your team, itd be a perfect fit....

In case you havent noticed, Stoudemire gets beaten up a lot on defense.....

In case you didn't notice O'neal was an average defender before he put on his added weight. To add to that, we weren't talking about his defensive problems, nor Stoudamire's. I was only pointing out that you don't necessarily need to be a big body to be as effective on offense.

Would a comparision of Chris Bosh be better for you?

(I mean that whole post with as much sarcastic tone as possible)