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Jesus Shuttlesworth
05-19-2005, 12:20 AM
The one that got away. How much better off would we be if we still had Brad Miller? Would Indiana have won yet?

SoupIsGood
05-19-2005, 12:21 AM
Oh no...

Kstat
05-19-2005, 12:42 AM
......and that was the last anyone ever saw or heard from 31 Forever......

grace
05-19-2005, 12:46 AM
Unless Brad had been able to keep 11/19 from happening I don't think we'd be any better off. After all he did break his leg this year so it's not like he'd be helping all that much righ now.

On the other hand there would be at least 2 threads about a) how we should have traded him or b) what we could get for him in the off season.

Brian
05-19-2005, 12:47 AM
To put it simply.

No.

Anthem
05-19-2005, 01:29 AM
Brad's a good guy. It's hard to say.

The offense would flow better with a high-post center, as opposed to Jermaine playing low- and high-post in the offensive scheme.

On the other hand, Brad's never going to give you 10 offensive rebounds.

Plus, he'd have gone into the stands.

Plus, he'd be broken down right now even if he hadn't broken his leg.

We did fine. But I'd rather have Brad than Bender, no questions asked.

Harmonica
05-19-2005, 01:33 AM
I'd rather have Brad than Bender, no questions asked.

Hear hear!

Hoop
05-19-2005, 02:01 AM
No doubt in my mind we'd be a better team right now. He has done better in the West than I thought he would. He averaged 15.6 pts, 9.3 rebs and 3.9 ast this season while shooting 52% and 81% from the line. Pretty darn good numbers.
My only worry was long term, I just didn't see him playing well long term. When his current contract is up he'll be around Dale's age now. I don't see him being anywhere near the physical condition or the player Dale is at that age. I always thought Brad would have 3 or 4 good years and then fade away quickly. If he plays anywhere near his current level through this contract, then we made a big blunder.

Brad's remaining contract.
05-06 $8,750,000
06-07 $9,625,000
07-08 $10,500,000
08-09 $11,375,000
09-10 $12,250,000

Hicks
05-19-2005, 02:04 AM
Plus, he'd have gone into the stands.

:rolleyes:

Peck
05-19-2005, 02:59 AM
Brad's a good guy. It's hard to say.

The offense would flow better with a high-post center, as opposed to Jermaine playing low- and high-post in the offensive scheme.

On the other hand, Brad's never going to give you 10 offensive rebounds.

Plus, he'd have gone into the stands.

Plus, he'd be broken down right now even if he hadn't broken his leg.
We did fine. But I'd rather have Brad than Bender, no questions asked.

I think I'll stay out of the overall debate because I'm pretty sure we all know what I think on this.

However I want to just addresst this.

I will admit that Brad seems to always have an injury as the season ends. But in all honesty doesn't Jamaal & Jermaine do the same thing?

I know we are all going to say that Jermaine's is legit & that we all saw the shoulder go pop. But then we don't give Brad the same benfit of the doubt when his leg was broken. It wasn't strained or pulled or sore. It was broken.

Jermaine was injured late this year. Jermaine was injured late last year. Jermaine was injured the year before that as well as the year ended.

I won't even begin to talk about Jamaal because he is always injured.

What am I saying? I don't know. I guess I just always felt it was an unfair statement to make about Brad when both of the above are literally the exact same way.

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 07:37 AM
Brad's a good guy. It's hard to say.

The offense would flow better with a high-post center, as opposed to Jermaine playing low- and high-post in the offensive scheme.

On the other hand, Brad's never going to give you 10 offensive rebounds.

Plus, he'd have gone into the stands.

The dude had fishing lures in his hat?

He'd have given you another offensive option 15 feet away from the basket and would have drawn Ben out (and made him play defense), cutting down on the offensive boards.

Whether that would've been enough to win game 4 or 5 is debatable.

Alabama-Redneck
05-19-2005, 08:53 AM
I think I'll stay out of the overall debate because I'm pretty sure we all know what I think on this.

However I want to just addresst this.

I will admit that Brad seems to always have an injury as the season ends. But in all honesty doesn't Jamaal & Jermaine do the same thing?

I know we are all going to say that Jermaine's is legit & that we all saw the shoulder go pop. But then we don't give Brad the same benfit of the doubt when his leg was broken. It wasn't strained or pulled or sore. It was broken.

Jermaine was injured late this year. Jermaine was injured late last year. Jermaine was injured the year before that as well as the year ended.

I won't even begin to talk about Jamaal because he is always injured.

What am I saying? I don't know. I guess I just always felt it was an unfair statement to make about Brad when both of the above are literally the exact same way.

I am not picking on you Peck but why do so many posters argue by comparison. This was a Brad Miller thread, redundant that it may be, so why are we talking about JO and JT.

Can we not criticise someone without introducing others for comparison. What you said about JO and JT is true but what was said about Brad was true.

Now, what am I saying ? Hell, I don't know either but the constant comparison thing just bothers me.

Rant over and now back to your previously scheduled program. :blush: :D


:cool:

Ragnar
05-19-2005, 10:09 AM
I will always believe that dumping Brad was the biggest mistake the Pacers have made in at least a Decade. It beats dumping A.D. for Bender because it was really A.D. for the 4th pick. Yes Brad broke his leg but he came back for the playoffs and played well.

Mushmouth
05-19-2005, 10:22 AM
In retrospect, it'd be nice to have spent money on him rather than Bender. But hindsight is 20-20 and frankly, Miller is a western conference player. He's charmin down low w/ zero post moves. Basically a big jumpshooter. Certainly wouldn't help us block out the Wallaces.

Hicks
05-19-2005, 11:43 AM
So many falsehoods already in this new thread. For my sanity I'm not going to hash them out right now. Maybe by late June / July

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 11:53 AM
This was a Brad Miller thread, redundant that it may be, so why are we talking about JO and JT.

Can we not criticise someone without introducing others for comparison. What you said about JO and JT is true but what was said about Brad was true.



Because certain member of this board have been known to be hypocritical and homerish. If Jeff Foster was traded today their would be a segment who next year would be telling how limited Foster was on offense and that he couldn't guard a motivated Bryant Reeves. Just like when Brad left all of the sudden he was now a horrible defender. :confused: :rolleyes:


Plus, he'd have gone into the stands

:rolleyes:

Anthem
05-19-2005, 12:08 PM
Peck, I don't have a problem with Brad breaking his leg. That's just bad luck, there's nothing conditioning can do to help. I think the same thing of Jermaine's injury. I'm saying that historically Brad hasn't worked on conditioning, so he's broken down by this point anyway.

I'm surprised that you guys think Brad would have been more peaceful than the rest of the Pacers. This is a guy that had more flagrants than Ron at several points in his Pacers career, and at the end of that season was #2 in the league behind Ron.

On the other hand, seeing a white guy in the fracas might have diminished public outrage... :devil:

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 12:18 PM
Flagrant fouls are objective though. Like that one against Dale in game 4, what a joke. I normally complain because our fouls aren't hard enough. I hate and 1 opportunities. Foul hard enough so they can't shoot. But now I guess thats a flagrant. :confused:

Since86
05-19-2005, 12:22 PM
Flagrant fouls are objective though. Like that one against Dale in game 4, what a joke. I normally complain because our fouls aren't hard enough. I hate and 1 opportunities. Foul hard enough so they can't shoot. But now I guess thats a flagrant. :confused:

Ron's flagrants were used in his season suspension, so obviously Stern follows that logic. Wait, now I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. :mad:

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 12:24 PM
Ron's flagrants were used in his season suspension, so obviously Stern follows that logic. Wait, now I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. :mad:

Yeah, but Ron had numerous other crimes on his rap sheet including trying to attack a fan in the stands before. A Pacer fan actually, I was at that the game when he was on the Bulls.

Since86
05-19-2005, 12:30 PM
Yeah, but Ron had numerous other crimes on his rap sheet including trying to attack a fan in the stands before. A Pacer fan actually, I was at that the game when he was on the Bulls.

I wasn't being serious lol......

I could see Brad going in though, because I can see most players doing it. Plus he is a good ol boy. :)

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 12:37 PM
I wasn't being serious lol......

I could see Brad going in though, because I can see most players doing it. Plus he is a good ol boy. :)

:D

He is definitely a good ol boy. I basically think it would depend on Brad's position on the court. Had he been on the bench he would have probably recieved the one game suspension like Reg for leaving, but thats it. Had he been up by Artest he would have probably pulled a Fred Jones (go it to help), but when he got hit by someone he most likely would have started swinging back unlike Fred.

Harmonica
05-19-2005, 12:46 PM
If Brad were an Apollo 11 astronaut, would he have been the first man on the moon or orbiting it in the lunar module?

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 12:53 PM
If Brad were an Apollo 11 astronaut, would he have been the first man on the moon or orbiting it in the lunar module?


:chin: Tough decision.


I guess he'd be on it, he has a go gettum attitude.

Since86
05-19-2005, 12:56 PM
If Brad were an Apollo 11 astronaut, would he have been the first man on the moon or orbiting it in the lunar module?

Would he fit? :crystalba

Unclebuck
05-19-2005, 12:59 PM
I think Brad would have grabbed the dustpan much earlier than Jamaal did

Peck
05-19-2005, 01:11 PM
:rotflmao: :buddies:
I think Brad would have grabbed the dustpan much earlier than Jamaal did

Bball
05-19-2005, 01:19 PM
If Brad were an Apollo 11 astronaut, would he have been the first man on the moon or orbiting it in the lunar module?

Neither... He would've been traded before launch....

-Bball

indygeezer
05-19-2005, 01:27 PM
I think Brad would have grabbed the dustpan much earlier than Jamaal did


Or, he coulda stood back out of harms way and shot a good wad of spit up at the fans. Nothing like tobbaco spit to break up a party.

PacerMan
05-19-2005, 01:39 PM
He was the perfect complement to JO's low post game. He pulled the center out to the free throw line or he'd bury 17'ers all night. That let JO go one on one against FOUR'S. That's a dominant mismatch.
It was a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGE mistake to lose him. ANd they know it. But we've moved on and built in other directions.
Now we'll hope that Hulk becomes the post guy and Jermaine moves more mid range outside. But against 4's out there he has no advantage.....

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 01:40 PM
There you go, having to bring in legit basketball discussion to a perfectly derailed post. ;)

However everything you said is 100% true.

Alabama-Redneck
05-19-2005, 01:56 PM
Because certain member of this board have been known to be hypocritical and homerish. If Jeff Foster was traded today their would be a segment who next year would be telling how limited Foster was on offense and that he couldn't guard a motivated Bryant Reeves. Just like when Brad left all of the sudden he was now a horrible defender. :confused: :rolleyes:



:rolleyes:


And what has that got to do with Austin Corshere ??:confused: :rolleyes:

:cool:

Harmonica
05-19-2005, 02:01 PM
He was the perfect complement to JO's low post game. He pulled the center out to the free throw line or he'd bury 17'ers all night. That let JO go one on one against FOUR'S. That's a dominant mismatch.
It was a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGE mistake to lose him. ANd they know it. But we've moved on and built in other directions.
Now we'll hope that Hulk becomes the post guy and Jermaine moves more mid range outside. But against 4's out there he has no advantage.....

When Brad can make it through an entire season without breaking down and be a contributing factor when it matters most, then you might be able to argue it was a mistake. Until then, it was unequivocally the right decision.

Dammit! I was going to stay out of this or keep it light with astronaut jokes.

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 02:01 PM
Well, permit me to offer you a solution.

Kurt Thomas.

Yes - THAT Kurt Thomas. Old Crazy Eyes himself.

Can shoot from 18 feet. Great post defender. Solid rebounder. Gets flagrant fouls - pretty decent Shaq-defense.

And if he comes to Indiana maybe his eyes will even line up with each other.

Anthem
05-19-2005, 02:16 PM
Well, permit me to offer you a solution.

Kurt Thomas.

Yes - THAT Kurt Thomas. Old Crazy Eyes himself.

Can shoot from 18 feet. Great post defender. Solid rebounder. Gets flagrant fouls - pretty decent Shaq-defense.

And if he comes to Indiana maybe his eyes will even line up with each other.

Croshere, Bender, and Pollard for Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas, and your pick. You know you want to.

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 02:21 PM
Well, permit me to offer you a solution.

Kurt Thomas.

Yes - THAT Kurt Thomas. Old Crazy Eyes himself.

Can shoot from 18 feet. Great post defender. Solid rebounder. Gets flagrant fouls - pretty decent Shaq-defense.

And if he comes to Indiana maybe his eyes will even line up with each other.

I'd take Kurt Thomas in a heartbeat.

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 02:27 PM
I'd take Kurt Thomas in a heartbeat.

If we were gonna be in contention at any time in the next three years I'd be first in the drive to keep him. He's the lunch-pail kind of guy, like Dale Davis, Horace Grant, etc., every team needs.

We won't be. Might as well deal him for something - not sure what Indy has that I'd want though.

Same holds true for a bunch of other teams - we should be able to deal him to a contender for some decent young talent.

Mourning
05-19-2005, 02:38 PM
I take it you are implying Kurt Thomas for Ron Artest? That's a disgusting proposition. I like KT, but ehm I rather take the risk with Ron ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 02:38 PM
And what has that got to do with Austin Corshere ??:confused: :rolleyes:

:cool:

There is a good chance I'm not understanding what you're meaning here, but if your point was to ask how anything I said about comparing Brad means anything to our players then I'll answer.

It is hypocritical to judge an opposing player's weakness while defending the same weakness of a player on your team. Which I believe for every supposed weakness that is listed for Brad, although that list seems to keep on growing despite his success, can be compared to one of our players yet the same people who would defend the Pacer would critique Brad.

Brad is too injury prone= Jamaal, Jermaine, :whistle:

Brad is overpayed = :whistle:, Austin, Jermaine (thats right I said it)

Brad is lazy = Jamaal, David Harrison (possibly)

Brad can't play defense= Reggie Miller

Brad is undersized = Fred Jones

Brad is not athletic = Anthony Johnson, Scot Pollard, Reggie Miller

However, we don't need a Brad Miller debate. The line in the sand has been drawn and everyone is on their respective sides. No one is switching either.

Peck
05-19-2005, 02:39 PM
I am not picking on you Peck but why do so many posters argue by comparison. This was a Brad Miller thread, redundant that it may be, so why are we talking about JO and JT.

Can we not criticise someone without introducing others for comparison. What you said about JO and JT is true but what was said about Brad was true.

Now, what am I saying ? Hell, I don't know either but the constant comparison thing just bothers me.

Rant over and now back to your previously scheduled program. :blush: :D


:cool:

Pretty simple answer to this really. Just look at Bulletproof's answer just above here. He is saying that because Brad breaks down or is injured by the time the playoffs run around that it is the reason to make the trade. He is listing this as the # 1 reason to make the trade in the post he just made. He didn't mention salary, ability, etc. He just mentioned injury's.

It's called a standard. If you have a standard you are using to judge something then it has to be used to judge other things as well, even if they are not judged the same.

So hence, when people say "Brad always breaks down by the playoffs" I feel the need to ask why is he the only one who is held to this standard? Why do we not ask the same of Jamaal or for that matter why do we not ask the same of Jermaine?

If you are using the standard that Brad is injured all of the time why the heck does it not apply to Jamaal, Jermaine & for God's sake Jon Bender?

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 02:42 PM
I take it you are implying Kurt Thomas for Ron Artest? That's a disgusting proposition. I like KT, but ehm I rather take the risk with Ron ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Don't want Ron.

His potential negatives are less for us than some because we suck. It's not like he'd, say, turn a Championship contender into an also-ran that gets eliminated in the 2nd rd of the playoffs. But what's the benefit? So we can go from 33 to 39 wins and he can be such a wonderful example to our young players?

Sorry. Keep him.

Harmonica
05-19-2005, 02:44 PM
So hence, when people say "Brad always breaks down by the playoffs" I feel the need to ask why is he the only one who is held to this standard?

Do people "say" that, are they making it up, or does it actually happen?

Kstat
05-19-2005, 02:45 PM
Honestly, I never hear that outside of this forum.

Anthem
05-19-2005, 02:51 PM
Which I believe for every supposed weakness that is listed for Brad, although that list seems to keep on growing despite his success, can be compared to one of our players yet the same people who would defend the Pacer would critique Brad.
David, this was not one of your better posts.

Brad is too injury prone= Jamaal, Jermaine, :whistle:
The complaint is that he doesn't work on his conditioning over the summer. Jermaine and Jamaal both do. Non-issue.

Brad is overpayed = :whistle:, Austin, Jermaine (thats I said it)
I actually didn't think Brad's contract was out of line, but I don't see what you're trying to prove here. You think Austin gets a pass for being overpaid? His salary drives everybody on the board crazy except your father. And if Jermaine's not worth the max, then very few players in the league are. And he'd be playing next to Tim Duncan right now, because the Spurs sure thought he was. Even Brad said the amount of money Sacto paid was beyond belief.

Brad is lazy = Jamaal, David Harrison (possibly)
Neither of those guys are lazy. You're stretching way to far to try to prove your point. I'll pretend you didn't say this, but if you want to try to defend this point I'd be glad to prove you wrong. :D

Brad can't play defense= Reggie Miller
Reggie's never been given a pass for playing poor defense. Historically, it's been one of the main complaints against the guy. I actually don't think Brad's defense is that bad against post players, but the man can't move his feet or jump to save his life. Even he admits that.

Brad is undersized = Fred Jones
I read every thread on this forum. I've never heard anyone say this. He's 7 feet tall, that's not undersized. Freddy, however, is undersized. Because of that, he'll have a hard time becoming a permanent starter for any team, despite his athletic abilities and long wingspan.

Brad is not athletic = Anthony Johnson, Scot Pollard, Reggie Miller.
Again, I've never seen anyone complain that Brad wasn't athletic. In fact, it's usually it's a point of pride for the people that back him. "He's not athletic, but he gets it done!"

You pushed way to hard to try to make this point.

Peck
05-19-2005, 02:51 PM
Do people "say" that, are they making it up, or does it actually happen?

I don't know. How many games in the playoffs did he play? How many did Bender play?

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 02:51 PM
We're a great forum, but we're not immune to some homerism. Which is what drives the Brad Miller debate IMO.

Alabama-Redneck
05-19-2005, 02:54 PM
Pretty simple answer to this really. Just look at Bulletproof's answer just above here. He is saying that because Brad breaks down or is injured by the time the playoffs run around that it is the reason to make the trade. He is listing this as the # 1 reason to make the trade in the post he just made. He didn't mention salary, ability, etc. He just mentioned injury's.

It's called a standard. If you have a standard you are using to judge something then it has to be used to judge other things as well, even if they are not judged the same.

So hence, when people say "Brad always breaks down by the playoffs" I feel the need to ask why is he the only one who is held to this standard? Why do we not ask the same of Jamaal or for that matter why do we not ask the same of Jermaine?

If you are using the standard that Brad is injured all of the time why the heck does it not apply to Jamaal, Jermaine & for God's sake Jon Bender?


It does apply. There are many, many threads about Bender's health, about JT's health and JO's health.

Each individual's case is different and in no way are they related to each other.

I have had back surgery. How does that compare to your knee surgery ??

Comparisons has always been another one of my pet-peeves.

If I tell someone I am tired and they answer back "Well, I have been up for 26 hours". What has that got to do with my being tired.

Nothing personal, just ranting. :D

:cool:

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 02:57 PM
I was gonna respond to your post Anthem, but you easily decided with authority that all my points were "non-issues" or "stretching too far" or you could easily "prove me wrong." On top of all that I guess my post wasn't that good, thanks for pointing that out by the way. So I guess there is no reason to respond, I've lost, that sucks.

RWB
05-19-2005, 02:58 PM
If Brad were an Apollo 11 astronaut, would he have been the first man on the moon or orbiting it in the lunar module?

2nd man on the moon. Fellow Purdue grad Neil Armstrong would make sure the other Boiler got to have some fun.

Eindar
05-19-2005, 03:04 PM
Sure, JO and Tinsley are injured right now, but it's not due to having a pulled goin or a foot sprain that could have been prevented due to better conditioning. Both of theirs, both years, were legitimate injuries that were unpreventable. Brad, on the other hand, gets no love from me until he drops about 10 lbs and puts on some muscle. I'm happy we didn't match Sacto's offer, because I blanch at paying a 30+ year old guy 7 figures when he can't get motivated to condition himself during the off-season. He's getting by as it is. He's going to be a boat anchor by the time that contract is over, because he'll be too old to get by on a jumpshot and whatever athletic ability he has, and he'll be too lazy to put in the work required to keep up with younger players. Also, he is already beginning to have foot problems, and for big men, that's usually a very bad sign, especially when you're only 27 or whatever. Think Rik Smits.

Also, if you're just wanting a guy who can pull the Center away from the basket, Bender can hit those shots, assuming he ever gets healthy. Also, I really think they hoped that Foster might have developed some sort of consistent jumpshot by now. Regardless, there are guys on this team that can hit the high-post jumper. In fact, Harrison has a sweet touch with the ball. I'd be surprised if he isn't able to hit that shot within a year or two.

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 03:15 PM
Sure, JO and Tinsley are injured right now, but it's not due to having a pulled goin or a foot sprain

Uh, what injury - exactly - do you think Tinsley HAS???

Peck
05-19-2005, 03:15 PM
It does apply. There are many, many threads about Bender's health, about JT's health and JO's health.

Each individual's case is different and in no way are they related to each other.

I have had back surgery. How does that compare to your knee surgery ??

Comparisons has always been another one of my pet-peeves.

If I tell someone I am tired and they answer back "Well, I have been up for 26 hours". What has that got to do with my being tired.

Nothing personal, just ranting. :D

:cool:

Comparrisons mean nothing in the context in which you are saying them. However if you & I were in the same car & were injured thus requireing your back & my knee surgery then there is the context to which to use it.

Comparisons may be a pet peeve of yours but we use them every day for many things. If your picking a piece of fruit do you look to see if one has a soft mushy part or do you take the first one you pick up?

When we are comparing Brad it is not because we just want to, it's because the Pacers made comparisons & decided that Brad was not worth keeping.

I have no real problem with that logic, I strongly disagree with it, but I understand it.

However it is our fan base on here who use the injury excuse that, IMO, is just unfair & in some cases just ways of justifying whatever Lord Donnie does. You know he can do no wrong don't you? To some people that is the way it is.

Others have a strong belief that Brad had problems, I disagree with them but I respect thier thoughts on the matter. Others just down any player who was ever here.

Look no further than Al Harrington for this.

Diamond Dave
05-19-2005, 03:21 PM
Sure, JO and Tinsley are injured right now, but it's not due to having a pulled goin or a foot sprain that could have been prevented due to better conditioning. Both of theirs, both years, were legitimate injuries that were unpreventable. Brad, on the other hand, gets no love from me until he drops about 10 lbs and puts on some muscle. I'm happy we didn't match Sacto's offer, because I blanch at paying a 30+ year old guy 7 figures when he can't get motivated to condition himself during the off-season. He's getting by as it is. He's going to be a boat anchor by the time that contract is over, because he'll be too old to get by on a jumpshot and whatever athletic ability he has, and he'll be too lazy to put in the work required to keep up with younger players. Also, he is already beginning to have foot problems, and for big men, that's usually a very bad sign, especially when you're only 27 or whatever. Think Rik Smits.

Also, if you're just wanting a guy who can pull the Center away from the basket, Bender can hit those shots, assuming he ever gets healthy. Also, I really think they hoped that Foster might have developed some sort of consistent jumpshot by now. Regardless, there are guys on this team that can hit the high-post jumper. In fact, Harrison has a sweet touch with the ball. I'd be surprised if he isn't able to hit that shot within a year or two.

I just don't get. :confused: I really don't. The first half of your post you're talking about how you're glad we didn't sign Brad because he gets injured and is overpaid. Then you say the remedy is Bender?

PacerMan
05-19-2005, 05:06 PM
Sure, JO and Tinsley are injured right now, but it's not due to having a pulled goin or a foot sprain that could have been prevented due to better conditioning. Both of theirs, both years, were legitimate injuries that were unpreventable. Brad, on the other hand, gets no love from me until he drops about 10 lbs and puts on some muscle. I'm happy we didn't match Sacto's offer, because I blanch at paying a 30+ year old guy 7 figures when he can't get motivated to condition himself during the off-season. He's getting by as it is. He's going to be a boat anchor by the time that contract is over, because he'll be too old to get by on a jumpshot and whatever athletic ability he has, and he'll be too lazy to put in the work required to keep up with younger players. Also, he is already beginning to have foot problems, and for big men, that's usually a very bad sign, especially when you're only 27 or whatever. Think Rik Smits.

Also, if you're just wanting a guy who can pull the Center away from the basket, Bender can hit those shots, assuming he ever gets healthy. Also, I really think they hoped that Foster might have developed some sort of consistent jumpshot by now. Regardless, there are guys on this team that can hit the high-post jumper. In fact, Harrison has a sweet touch with the ball. I'd be surprised if he isn't able to hit that shot within a year or two.

No team is guarding Bender with their center.

Anthem
05-19-2005, 05:15 PM
I was gonna respond to your post Anthem, but you easily decided with authority that all my points were "non-issues" or "stretching too far" or you could easily "prove me wrong." On top of all that I guess my post wasn't that good, thanks for pointing that out by the way. So I guess there is no reason to respond, I've lost, that sucks.

Hey, at least you can admit when you're wrong. That's more than I can do. :flirt:

Alabama-Redneck
05-19-2005, 06:28 PM
Comparrisons mean nothing in the context in which you are saying them. However if you & I were in the same car & were injured thus requireing your back & my knee surgery then there is the context to which to use it.

Yes, you could say we both got hurt in the same car wreck but how could you compare our recovery time since one was a knee and one was a back injury.

Comparisons may be a pet peeve of yours but we use them every day for many things. If your picking a piece of fruit do you look to see if one has a soft mushy part or do you take the first one you pick up?

If I pick up an apple and it has a mushy spot, I will get another one. Then if someone tell me " It's a good thing I didn't get a pear because it had a mushy spot also". My question is "Who cares, I didn't want a pear".

When we are comparing Brad it is not because we just want to, it's because the Pacers made comparisons & decided that Brad was not worth keeping.

I have no real problem with that logic, I strongly disagree with it, but I understand it.

Do you think Pacers Management said " Brad has been injuried alot but so has JO and Tinsley, so lets get rid of all three of them".

However it is our fan base on here who use the injury excuse that, IMO, is just unfair & in some cases just ways of justifying whatever Lord Donnie does. You know he can do no wrong don't you? To some people that is the way it is.

Well, I am not one of those people. Donnie has done several good things as well as several not so good things. You must realize most posters opinions change like the Indiana weather. Which ever way the wind is blowing is what their opinion is. There are several hardcore posters, and you are included, that I have a great deal of respect for and read their posts for the information.

Others have a strong belief that Brad had problems, I disagree with them but I respect thier thoughts on the matter. Others just down any player who was ever here.

I think you will find I seldom ever bad-mouth any of the Pacers. That holds true for most pro athletes. Having been a decent athlete, I know what it takes to succeed and most people do not have a clue thereby they try to makeup for their lack of skills by trying to bring others down to their level. Pitiful

Look no further than Al Harrington for this.

I would really like to sit down and talk with you and a few select posters sometime as I think it would be very, very enjoyable. If I can make a Forum Party sometime, maybe we can have a long discussion.

I will be looking forward to such a meeting.

:cool:

brich
05-19-2005, 07:01 PM
This thread has ventured off into hair-splitting country...but I just wanted to chip in my two cents.

I like Brad Miller very much, and I would love to have him on the team. He isn't perfect, for many reasons listed above, but the good far outweighs the bad IMO.

It is very hard to say that Brad Miller is overpaid. The market bears what it bears, and 7 footers who can shoot and bring effort on both ends bring a premium in this league. I don't think he has crashed statistically, or decreased in productivity (minus injuries), such as a guy like Croshere, so I don't think he is overpaid.

The Pacers were just too hamstrung financiall to pay him what he was worth at the end of his contract. In hindsight we should have locked him up earlier, and we probably locked in some of the wrong people. Unfortunately GM's don't have crystal balls. You win some and you lose some, and IMO, he was definitely a huge loss for us.

Guys like him are hard to replace...that is why they get paid so much.

Eindar
05-19-2005, 07:04 PM
Uh, what injury - exactly - do you think Tinsley HAS???

Ligament damage, which is what he has said a few times, had you been listening.

Eindar
05-19-2005, 07:09 PM
I just don't get. :confused: I really don't. The first half of your post you're talking about how you're glad we didn't sign Brad because he gets injured and is overpaid. Then you say the remedy is Bender?


We signed Bender as a 22 year old with a ton of potential and, at the time, a rash of injuries, but not a major problem with them. Brad was something like 26 or 27, had had a long, long history of not finishing the season strong, foot problems, and an indifference to off-season conditioning.

Essentially, what I'm saying is if you're wanting a big guy who can shoot, ther e are cheaper, healthier options than Brad Miller. If you want to look on our own team, a healthy Croshere or Bender could fill that role.

To the guy who said no Center would ever be put on Bender: That's fine. Take Detroit for example, since we're talking about how much we miss Brad Miller. They then put Rasheed on Bender, leaving Big Ben to guard JO? We've seen how much easier JO has it against Ben as compared to Rasheed. So esentially, you have proven my point for me, thanks.

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 09:24 PM
Ligament damage, which is what he has said a few times, had you been listening.

Wow - you're just really stupid aren't you - not just a little bit.

But don't take my word for it - read it here: http://www.fromallangles.com/glossary/weight-loss/terms/sprain.htm

In case you couldn't figure that out, here's the full text:

Sprain
An injury to the ligament

Or if you prefer the long definition:
a painful injury to a joint caused by a sudden wrenching of its ligaments

Hicks
05-19-2005, 09:31 PM
I'm sure you had to call him stupid to make that point...

DisplacedKnick
05-19-2005, 10:59 PM
I'm sure you had to call him stupid to make that point...

After three posts where he displayed total cluelessness?

Apparently so - he wasn't figuring it out when I was polite - in fact he decided to come back with a wise-*** comment.

SycamoreKen
05-19-2005, 11:01 PM
This whole thread is stupid. Why not just pin it to the top so we don't have to have a new one every other friggin month.

ThirtyOneAndOnlyFX
05-19-2005, 11:33 PM
all right i'll read through all this later, but first off:

"Plus, he'd have gone into the stands. "

hell yes he would've

and i'm glad to have brad in sacto... when he left indy for sac, it was nice, cause from one fave team to another.

Eindar
05-20-2005, 06:44 AM
Wow - you're just really stupid aren't you - not just a little bit.

But don't take my word for it - read it here: http://www.fromallangles.com/glossary/weight-loss/terms/sprain.htm

In case you couldn't figure that out, here's the full text:

Sprain
An injury to the ligament

Or if you prefer the long definition:
a painful injury to a joint caused by a sudden wrenching of its ligaments

I'm talking about a tear, but whatever, bro. You obviously think you're right, so I'll let it be. The FACT is that Brad Miller has been CRAP in virtually every postseason he's played in, due to injuries and/or fatigue. He had a good run this year, but 15 and 9 isn't 7 figures stats, is it? Also, he's peaked. That's the best you're ever going to get from B. Miller. For the record, those are great stats for a Center you're paying 7 mil a year. But how about when he's broken down 4-5 years from now, and you've gotta watch that 12 million hanging over his head while younger, more athletic centers expose him by driving past him for a layup or dunk. How will 12 and 3, 50 games per season look at 12 million? I could care less if he's worth it now. I never want a boat anchor on the team, be it Croshere or Bender or Brad "Old Milwaulkee" Miller. Unfortunately we're stuck with the former players. I'm just glad we're not tied down with the latter.

grace
05-20-2005, 09:52 AM
We signed Bender as a 22 year old.

Unless he went to high school for 8 years I think he was 18 when we signed him.

If I'm wrong, please don't call me stupid. I prefer misinformed.

Anthem
05-20-2005, 11:27 AM
Unless he went to high school for 8 years I think he was 18 when we signed him.

If I'm wrong, please don't call me stupid. I prefer misinformed.

I think he means the second contract... after the 4-year rookie contract.

grace
05-20-2005, 11:37 AM
I think he means the second contract... after the 4-year rookie contract.

Oh. I went back and re-read his post and you're proably right.

Now that I have re-read his post: :huh: To me JB's rash of injuries were just as significant or as insignificant as what happened to Brad. No amount of conditioning is going to prevent what happens to your foot when Shaq steps on it.

Don't get me wrong, I like Brad, but can we please obsess about something else.

Eindar
05-20-2005, 09:23 PM
I personally think we should be more upset about losing Primoz than B. Miller.

Kegboy
05-21-2005, 03:46 PM
I personally think we should be more upset about losing Primoz than B. Miller.

:wah:

Damn man, I'm having a hard enough time this week, and you got to bring up Peanut Butter.

:wah:

Mourning
05-21-2005, 03:55 PM
Unless he went to high school for 8 years I think he was 18 when we signed him.

If I'm wrong, please don't call me stupid. I prefer misinformed.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

pacerwaala
05-21-2005, 05:13 PM
bump!

Brad Miller will have long retired, and we will be still talking about him on this forum.

My two cents, I thing we would have won the whole thing last year if we had Brad on that team. He would not have been too hard to trade this year.

Alabama-Redneck
05-21-2005, 09:45 PM
Whats wrong with going to HS for 8 years?

:peak:


Which grade ?????? :blush: :D

:cool:

SycamoreKen
05-21-2005, 11:50 PM
Which grade ?????? :blush: :D

:cool:

Isn't that 8th grade in Alabama?:dunce: The grade levels there tell you how long it takes to finish each one, right?:zip:

Alabama-Redneck
05-22-2005, 06:29 AM
Isn't that 8th grade in Alabama?:dunce: The grade levels there tell you how long it takes to finish each one, right?:zip:

I don't think so as it took me 5 years on the 3rd grade and I never finished the 5th but since I was borned and raised in Indiana, I guess I might not be the one to ask. :blush: :D

:cool:

indygeezer
05-22-2005, 08:24 AM
Which grade ?????? :blush: :D

:cool:



dayum spoken like a true redneck.