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Kstat
05-18-2005, 01:17 AM
I was debating just to let it be tonight, but I felt there were a few things that I could add after tonight.

-Jermaine Oneal is hurting. To his credit, he's never going to use that as an excuse, but he's hurting. And he's playing against the toughest frontline in basketball. Anytime the spotlight is on him, he's playing Detroit. Play him against 27 other NBA teams, and he looks like a franchise player.

I don't blame Jermaine, I blame Donnie for drafting role player after role player to play alongside JO, and not picking up one guy that can take some scoring burden from him, so he doesnt have to go 1 on 2 all the time. Jermaine's a good kid, he's just in a very unfair situation.

Do I think his friendship is affecting him? No, not really. Rasheed Wallace is all buisness on the court with JO. He does his best to beat him as badly as possible. I can't believe JO really would do any less himself if he could.

Stephen Jackson is a completely different person during the postseason. He's been there before, and he knows what it takes. Listening to his postgame comments, I think he knows exactly how to conduct himself in the playoffs. But, again, he's under pressure to outplay a damn good player in Tayshawn Prince EVERY NIGHT, because if the two of them draw even, like tonight, the Pacers can't win. Also, Jackson belongs in the post, not the three-point line. He's a big, physical guard. Out at the 3-point line, he's incredibly inconsistent. Also, the high arc on his shot leads to VERY long rebounds.

Jamaal Tinsley had the injury excuse last year. He doesn't this year. I know he came off IR only a few weeks ago, but physically, he looks fine to me. He just doesn't seem like he can handle pressure. He forces a lot of things that aren't there, and he seems to believe that he's a better scorer than he really is. I know Carlisle stuck up for him tonight after the game, but he's the one guy they pacers CANT win without, and he's getting tag-teamed by Billups and Arroyo. He can't be the 3rd best point guard on the floor and lead Indiana to a win.

Reggie did a good job of tying his shoes before pregame. A fine double-knot. Which is probably better than anything James Jones has done in the last 10 days. He was a rising star against Boston, but he's doing a good ghost impression this series. I was actually pretty worried about him. I suppose maybe I was overrating him a bit.

Foster isn't taking anybody by surprise anymore. He gets his boards, but he no longer changes the game. And in no universe should he be throwing up running jump hooks.

Dale is a solid player, for 15 minutes a game. He reminds me of Elden Campbell (before we exiled Elden to the bench). After so long, those old legs kick in. He's a valuable backup center, though, if you decide to trade foster. I think Foster and Dale often get in each other's way.

Someone also has to remind dale that he can't get off the floor like he used to, and he should be kicking those boards out like foster does.

Anthony Johnson has been remarkably solid, for what he used to be. If you could put AJ's brain into Tinsley's body, you'd have an all-star.

So that brings me to......Rick Carlisle. For the 2nd year in a row, he had Larry Brown on the defensive, and Larry adjusted. Rick, for all his personal growth, still hasn't worked on his weakness: he doesn't adjust during the game. He's good at using timeouts, I just never see Indiana do anything DIFFERENT out of them. After game 4, I thought I'd see the Pacers go to the hoop more. I was wrong. Again, too many jumpers, and too much isolation play.

Rick is a fantastic regular season coach. The best in the NBA. I think he could take the bobcats to the playoffs. The problem is, Rick's style isn't as good in the playoffs, because it utilizes isolation, not motion. Other than Reggie, nobody moves away from the ball. Its the same style he used here, just with different players. When you're playing a team like boston with weak defender, it works. But eventually you run into a team that can defend well, and you stop scoring on all those 1-on-1 moves. At least, thats how it was with us in 2002 and 2003. When we lost, we lost BAD. Sometimes I see the old pistons in Carlisle's pacers, albeit more talented.

As good a young coach as he is, Carlisle is a .500 playoff coach. All four seasons he's been able to point to injures and bad shooting nights, but at some point, Rick has got to find a way to adjust against good teams. Your players aren't going to get any hotter if you can't find a way to get them better looks at the basket.

Still, Rick's a smart guy. Eventually, he'll get the point. I just wonder when that'll be.

Yes, 11/19 absolves him of any and all critisism. Heck, He should have been coach of the year.

I just wonder whats going to happen when Rick doesnt have any injuries or suspensions to point to, and is actually EXPECTED to lead a dominant playoff team......

Brian
05-18-2005, 01:57 AM
Im with you on most of the stuff you say..except for a couple things.

1.Jermaine has a tendency to not play well against his "friends" in the NBA. (I remember watching him play Kwame Brown,and he made Kwame look like an all-star).

2.Donnie doesnt just draft role players/trade for role players,But I know its been said over and over,and over again but our 2nd best player is not here (RA).


But 1 thing I wanted to add,You know that if DET doesnt make it to the finals (and win) this year,Everyone is gonna say the RC is just like Toney Dungy,and LB is just like Chuckie.

Kstat
05-18-2005, 02:05 AM
But 1 thing I wanted to add,You know that if DET doesnt make it to the finals (and win) this year,Everyone is gonna say the RC is just like Toney Dungy,and LB is just like Chuckie.

I don't follow that at all. Gruden and Larry Brown couldn't possibly be any LESS alike.

Peck
05-18-2005, 02:13 AM
I was debating just to let it be tonight, but I felt there were a few things that I could add after tonight.

-Jermaine Oneal is hurting. To his credit, he's never going to use that as an excuse, but he's hurting. And he's playing against the toughest frontline in basketball. Anytime the spotlight is on him, he's playing Detroit. Play him against 27 other NBA teams, and he looks like a franchise player.

I don't blame Jermaine, I blame Donnie for drafting role player after role player to play alongside JO, and not picking up one guy that can take some scoring burden from him, so he doesnt have to go 1 on 2 all the time. Jermaine's a good kid, he's just in a very unfair situation.

Do I think his friendship is affecting him? No, not really. Rasheed Wallace is all buisness on the court with JO. He does his best to beat him as badly as possible. I can't believe JO really would do any less himself if he could.

Stephen Jackson is a completely different person during the postseason. He's been there before, and he knows what it takes. Listening to his postgame comments, I think he knows exactly how to conduct himself in the playoffs. But, again, he's under pressure to outplay a damn good player in Tayshawn Prince EVERY NIGHT, because if the two of them draw even, like tonight, the Pacers can't win. Also, Jackson belongs in the post, not the three-point line. He's a big, physical guard. Out at the 3-point line, he's incredibly inconsistent. Also, the high arc on his shot leads to VERY long rebounds.

Jamaal Tinsley had the injury excuse last year. He doesn't this year. I know he came off IR only a few weeks ago, but physically, he looks fine to me. He just doesn't seem like he can handle pressure. He forces a lot of things that aren't there, and he seems to believe that he's a better scorer than he really is. I know Carlisle stuck up for him tonight after the game, but he's the one guy they pacers CANT win without, and he's getting tag-teamed by Billups and Arroyo. He can't be the 3rd best point guard on the floor and lead Indiana to a win.

Reggie did a good job of tying his shoes before pregame. A fine double-knot. Which is probably better than anything James Jones has done in the last 10 days. He was a rising star against Boston, but he's doing a good ghost impression this series. I was actually pretty worried about him. I suppose maybe I was overrating him a bit.

Foster isn't taking anybody by surprise anymore. He gets his boards, but he no longer changes the game. And in no universe should he be throwing up running jump hooks.

Dale is a solid player, for 15 minutes a game. He reminds me of Elden Campbell (before we exiled Elden to the bench). After so long, those old legs kick in. He's a valuable backup center, though, if you decide to trade foster. I think Foster and Dale often get in each other's way.

Someone also has to remind dale that he can't get off the floor like he used to, and he should be kicking those boards out like foster does.

Anthony Johnson has been remarkably solid, for what he used to be. If you could put AJ's brain into Tinsley's body, you'd have an all-star.

So that brings me to......Rick Carlisle. For the 2nd year in a row, he had Larry Brown on the defensive, and Larry adjusted. Rick, for all his personal growth, still hasn't worked on his weakness: he doesn't adjust during the game. He's good at using timeouts, I just never see Indiana do anything DIFFERENT out of them. After game 4, I thought I'd see the Pacers go to the hoop more. I was wrong. Again, too many jumpers, and too much isolation play.

Rick is a fantastic regular season coach. The best in the NBA. I think he could take the bobcats to the playoffs. The problem is, Rick's style isn't as good in the playoffs, because it utilizes isolation, not motion. Other than Reggie, nobody moves away from the ball. Its the same style he used here, just with different players. When you're playing a team like boston with weak defender, it works. But eventually you run into a team that can defend well, and you stop scoring on all those 1-on-1 moves. At least, thats how it was with us in 2002 and 2003. When we lost, we lost BAD. Sometimes I see the old pistons in Carlisle's pacers, albeit more talented.

As good a young coach as he is, Carlisle is a .500 playoff coach. All four seasons he's been able to point to injures and bad shooting nights, but at some point, Rick has got to find a way to adjust against good teams. Your players aren't going to get any hotter if you can't find a way to get them better looks at the basket.

Still, Rick's a smart guy. Eventually, he'll get the point. I just wonder when that'll be.

Yes, 11/19 absolves him of any and all critisism. Heck, He should have been coach of the year.

I just wonder whats going to happen when Rick doesnt have any injuries or suspensions to point to, and is actually EXPECTED to lead a dominant playoff team......

I want to disagree with you but I can't.

Well, except for one thing. I don't feel like J.O. (for whatever reason) plays well vs. his former mentors from Portland. That is both Rasheed Wallace & Brian Grant. He just can't bring it against them.

Other than that it may soon be time to break out Jay's post about this team being built for the regular season. But now is not that time.

Brian
05-18-2005, 02:28 AM
I don't follow that at all. Gruden and Larry Brown couldn't possibly be any LESS alike.



I shouldve elaberated more..What I meant is that Dungy coached the bucs then he gets fired,next season the bucs win the super bowl,And now everyone says that it was really Dungy who won the super bowl.


RC gets fired,next season DET wins NBA championship.


So what I was saying is that they will compare the 2 situations.

People will say that it was actually RC who won the championship.

Kstat
05-18-2005, 02:31 AM
People will say that it was actually RC who won the championship.

The first guy to say that (with a straight face), please point him in my direction. :laugh:

And this is the first time i've heard dungy was responsible for Tampa winning the superbowl.....

Bball
05-18-2005, 02:40 AM
I shouldve elaberated more..What I meant is that Dungy coached the bucs then he gets fired,next season the bucs win the super bowl,And now everyone says that it was really Dungy who won the super bowl.


Btown says that all the time....

:P

-Bball

indygeezer
05-18-2005, 07:54 AM
Kstat....completely agree with your assessment of Jax and Tinsley. Jax is a different animal in the PO's. Or is it that the rest of the team is so dismal he shines by comparison??? But yeah, props to Jax2,

Tinsley.......likes butting his head against the wall. Block his shot? Ok, he'll keep trying the same damn thing until he gets yanked....and get a foul or two along with it. Stop his drive? He'll keep trying the same play...again until he gets yanked. Frustrate him and he becomes another knucklehead who can't handle the pressure....IOW Mel-Mel. :censored:

SjA3837
05-18-2005, 08:03 AM
And this is the first time i've heard dungy was responsible for Tampa winning the superbowl.....

I've heard that everywhere, it was Dungys D that won the superbowl for the Bucs, what did Gruden do the year after that?

Deadshot
05-18-2005, 08:42 AM
Just for the record, many people have claimed that the Bucs won the Bowl because of Dungy, including myself. I hear about this a lot due to my living in Florida, but I have heard it from out of state sources as well.

Unclebuck
05-18-2005, 08:55 AM
Great post Kstat, I certainly don't agree with everything you posted, but the points you are making are certainly reasonable.

I just don't for one minute buy the theory that J.O does not play well against his friends. That is being disrespectful to the great defense of Sheed. The one highlight they keep showing from last night is the one where J.O drives into the lane, he initially beats Sheed, but Sheed recovers and blocks the shot, great play by Sheed, but the amazing thing about the play is that Ben is right there ready to block the shot also, with his head almost hitting he rim.

That play shows you how tough it is to score on the Pistons inside.

I said after the ECF last season that the Pistons defense was the best I had ever seen, better than the Bulls, better than the Bod Boy Pistons, better than the Knicks, or Spurs. But in the first 3 games of this series, I did not think the Pistons defense was as good, well last night they were back to their championship form.

IN my life whenever I played against a very good friend or a brother, I wanted to win, beat him more than I would a stranger.

Harmonica
05-18-2005, 09:08 AM
I was debating just to let it be tonight, but I felt there were a few things that I could add after tonight.

-Jermaine Oneal is hurting. To his credit, he's never going to use that as an excuse, but he's hurting. And he's playing against the toughest frontline in basketball. Anytime the spotlight is on him, he's playing Detroit. Play him against 27 other NBA teams, and he looks like a franchise player.

I don't blame Jermaine, I blame Donnie for drafting role player after role player to play alongside JO, and not picking up one guy that can take some scoring burden from him, so he doesnt have to go 1 on 2 all the time. Jermaine's a good kid, he's just in a very unfair situation.

Do I think his friendship is affecting him? No, not really. Rasheed Wallace is all buisness on the court with JO. He does his best to beat him as badly as possible. I can't believe JO really would do any less himself if he could.

Stephen Jackson is a completely different person during the postseason. He's been there before, and he knows what it takes. Listening to his postgame comments, I think he knows exactly how to conduct himself in the playoffs. But, again, he's under pressure to outplay a damn good player in Tayshawn Prince EVERY NIGHT, because if the two of them draw even, like tonight, the Pacers can't win. Also, Jackson belongs in the post, not the three-point line. He's a big, physical guard. Out at the 3-point line, he's incredibly inconsistent. Also, the high arc on his shot leads to VERY long rebounds.

Jamaal Tinsley had the injury excuse last year. He doesn't this year. I know he came off IR only a few weeks ago, but physically, he looks fine to me. He just doesn't seem like he can handle pressure. He forces a lot of things that aren't there, and he seems to believe that he's a better scorer than he really is. I know Carlisle stuck up for him tonight after the game, but he's the one guy they pacers CANT win without, and he's getting tag-teamed by Billups and Arroyo. He can't be the 3rd best point guard on the floor and lead Indiana to a win.

Reggie did a good job of tying his shoes before pregame. A fine double-knot. Which is probably better than anything James Jones has done in the last 10 days. He was a rising star against Boston, but he's doing a good ghost impression this series. I was actually pretty worried about him. I suppose maybe I was overrating him a bit.

Foster isn't taking anybody by surprise anymore. He gets his boards, but he no longer changes the game. And in no universe should he be throwing up running jump hooks.

Dale is a solid player, for 15 minutes a game. He reminds me of Elden Campbell (before we exiled Elden to the bench). After so long, those old legs kick in. He's a valuable backup center, though, if you decide to trade foster. I think Foster and Dale often get in each other's way.

Someone also has to remind dale that he can't get off the floor like he used to, and he should be kicking those boards out like foster does.

Anthony Johnson has been remarkably solid, for what he used to be. If you could put AJ's brain into Tinsley's body, you'd have an all-star.

So that brings me to......Rick Carlisle. For the 2nd year in a row, he had Larry Brown on the defensive, and Larry adjusted. Rick, for all his personal growth, still hasn't worked on his weakness: he doesn't adjust during the game. He's good at using timeouts, I just never see Indiana do anything DIFFERENT out of them. After game 4, I thought I'd see the Pacers go to the hoop more. I was wrong. Again, too many jumpers, and too much isolation play.

Rick is a fantastic regular season coach. The best in the NBA. I think he could take the bobcats to the playoffs. The problem is, Rick's style isn't as good in the playoffs, because it utilizes isolation, not motion. Other than Reggie, nobody moves away from the ball. Its the same style he used here, just with different players. When you're playing a team like boston with weak defender, it works. But eventually you run into a team that can defend well, and you stop scoring on all those 1-on-1 moves. At least, thats how it was with us in 2002 and 2003. When we lost, we lost BAD. Sometimes I see the old pistons in Carlisle's pacers, albeit more talented.

As good a young coach as he is, Carlisle is a .500 playoff coach. All four seasons he's been able to point to injures and bad shooting nights, but at some point, Rick has got to find a way to adjust against good teams. Your players aren't going to get any hotter if you can't find a way to get them better looks at the basket.

Still, Rick's a smart guy. Eventually, he'll get the point. I just wonder when that'll be.

Yes, 11/19 absolves him of any and all critisism. Heck, He should have been coach of the year.

I just wonder whats going to happen when Rick doesnt have any injuries or suspensions to point to, and is actually EXPECTED to lead a dominant playoff team......

A couple of things: 1.) It took Larry Brown 25 years and far more than 4 playoff appearances before he won a championship, and 2.) for you you to go through a canned analysis of this series and waiting until your second-to-last paragraph to mention 11/19 (off-handedly, I might add) is laughable. Only a Pistons fan could do that with a straight face. Your post is the analytical equivalent of a coroner saying a patient died of heart failure while ignoring the gun wound to their head.

Doug in CO
05-18-2005, 09:28 AM
I am starting to understand why Dumars fired RC - it really seemed strange then (except you were talking about LB) - but it is pretty clear why he did so now.

Grant
05-18-2005, 09:45 AM
I don't blame Jermaine, I blame Donnie for drafting role player after role player to play alongside JO, and not picking up one guy that can take some scoring burden from him, so he doesnt have to go 1 on 2 all the time. Jermaine's a good kid, he's just in a very unfair situation.

Frankly, I'm not sure who Donnie could have gotten to pick up some of the scoring. Certianly, nobody in the last several drafts. Its not like he had the number 2 pick with Carmello and Wade on the board (nudge, nudge). Artest is the guy that would pick up he scoring, and trading for Jackson helps there too.

Jermaine is what he is, I don't blame him either. Some would argue he is not being used correctly. But when you are consistently picking in the 20's, role players are all you can add.

Fool
05-18-2005, 11:27 AM
Just for the record, many people have claimed that the Bucs won the Bowl because of Dungy, including myself. I hear about this a lot due to my living in Florida, but I have heard it from out of state sources as well.

And Tony Dungy is also talked about as a guy who can get you to the Playoffs but can't get you a championship (its not like there is a concensus opinion on the guy). Dungy had his chance with Tampa, it was time to bring in a closer. Lets also not forget that "Chuckie's" Raiders were the other team in that Superbowl. Its not like the guy inherited a winner after being the captain of a sinking ship. Sure, the Bucks have gone to pot since which only shows that it was indeed "Dungy's team". That doesn't mean Dungy would have gotten them the ring.

sweabs
05-18-2005, 11:32 AM
The one highlight they keep showing from last night is the one where J.O drives into the lane, he initially beats Sheed, but Sheed recovers and blocks the shot, great play by Sheed, but the amazing thing about the play is that Ben is right there ready to block the shot also, with his head almost hitting he rim.

Or, that highlight can conversely show how predictable our offense has become.

BillS
05-18-2005, 12:11 PM
Just wanted to say thanks, Kstat, for having class.

I have a buddy who is an old-school Pistons fan, of the "if you can't beat 'em, beat up their fans" type. I have no desire whatsoever to talk to him or hear from him after a loss of any kind to Detroit - never mind a whuppin' like this - because he has no respect.

You have respect. Thanks.

BillS
05-18-2005, 12:13 PM
Or, that highlight can conversely show how predictable our offense has become.

Easy to be predictable when the defense knows they don't have to guard against jumpers.

Give me five big guys who never played basketball before and I can defend against a team that can only take it to the rim without any chance of hitting outside of 5 feet.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 01:41 PM
So that brings me to......Rick Carlisle. For the 2nd year in a row, he had Larry Brown on the defensive, and Larry adjusted. Rick, for all his personal growth, still hasn't worked on his weakness: he doesn't adjust during the game. He's good at using timeouts, I just never see Indiana do anything DIFFERENT out of them. After game 4, I thought I'd see the Pacers go to the hoop more. I was wrong. Again, too many jumpers, and too much isolation play.

Rick is a fantastic regular season coach. The best in the NBA. I think he could take the bobcats to the playoffs. The problem is, Rick's style isn't as good in the playoffs, because it utilizes isolation, not motion. Other than Reggie, nobody moves away from the ball. Its the same style he used here, just with different players. When you're playing a team like boston with weak defender, it works. But eventually you run into a team that can defend well, and you stop scoring on all those 1-on-1 moves. At least, thats how it was with us in 2002 and 2003. When we lost, we lost BAD. Sometimes I see the old pistons in Carlisle's pacers, albeit more talented.

As good a young coach as he is, Carlisle is a .500 playoff coach. All four seasons he's been able to point to injures and bad shooting nights, but at some point, Rick has got to find a way to adjust against good teams. Your players aren't going to get any hotter if you can't find a way to get them better looks at the basket.

Still, Rick's a smart guy. Eventually, he'll get the point. I just wonder when that'll be.

Yes, 11/19 absolves him of any and all critisism. Heck, He should have been coach of the year.

I just wonder whats going to happen when Rick doesnt have any injuries or suspensions to point to, and is actually EXPECTED to lead a dominant playoff team......


Alright I have to differ here. Has any coach won the Championship in his first through fourth year as a head coach? I'm sure they may be one or two but then you have to look at who they had on the team and compare if Rick has had similiar talent and health in his first 4 years. I love how people come out to bash RC when he has shown he can adjust in the playoffs. Last night we got totally steamrolled, there wasn't anything that could stop the momentum that decided this game. RC adjusted in the Boston series after each loss, and he adjusted all season in the face of so much adversity.

It is an awfully big statement to say Rick not a good playoff coach when he has had very good success in the playoffs all four years. Where are the other young coaches in the league right now? The only other one still going is the Dallas coach and who can argue with the talent and experience he has on his roster. Have we underacheived in the playoffs? Yes maybe last year we did, but we also were injured and unexperienced not having been out of the first round for years. This year we weren't supposed to make the playoffs, let alone the second round and you say RC isn't a playoff coach.

Detroit wasn't a lock to make the playoffs Rick's first year there and they win the division and go to the 2nd round. They made the ECF the year he was fired and it is made out to be that Rick did a poor job and that is why he was fired. He was fired because Davidson is an old jerk who didn't like him, and because Larry Brown had already agreed to the take the job. Not because he can't coach.

Larry Brown has been around forever and he better be able to outcoach a young coach who has 4 years experience. Can't compare the two that way, it is rediculous, but after Rick has been coaching for 20+ years then it would be fair to compare their successes and failures. It took Brown FOREVER to finally win a championship, and he did with a team that Rick had formed into a defensive minded team and a winning culture that wasn't there before Rick went to Detroit. Not mention the addition of Rasheed who Rick never had when he was there. Rasheed is the difference for the Pistons between a very good team and a champion.

I just wonder what is going to happen when Rick does win the title and it doesn't take 25 years!

Graywolf_59
05-18-2005, 01:48 PM
I've heard that everywhere, it was Dungys D that won the superbowl for the Bucs, what did Gruden do the year after that?Nothing at all on Gruden :) @ least TD has gotten us to the Playoff's:D

Fool
05-18-2005, 02:06 PM
Where are the other young coaches in the league right now? The only other one still going is the Dallas coach and who can argue with the talent and experience he has on his roster.

Don't forget:

Miami w/ SVG (2nd year)
Pheonix w/ D'Antoni (4th year)
Washington w/ Jordan (4th year) (out now, but made it to the same round)

With Dallas, that makes 4 of the other 7 teams in the second round with coaches just as "young" as Rick Carlisle.


He was fired because Davidson is an old jerk who didn't like him, and because Larry Brown had already agreed to the take the job. Not because he can't coach.

I'm sure you'd rather I not throw unsupported slanders at the owner of your favorite team. Carlisle was fired because Joe Dumars did not feel he could get the job done. You are entitled to dissagree with Dumars' opinion but Davidson has a well established track record of leaving decisions about who coaches the team up to those he hires to make those decisions (the President and GM).

I understand you might be upset about any number of things involving the season, the playoffs, and/or the posters here, but Davidson deserves none of your hatred.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 02:14 PM
Don't forget:

Miami w/ SVG (2nd year) I did forget about Stan, but who can argue that with Shaq and Wade on his team that it is mostly coaching that got him here.
Pheonix w/ D'Antoni (4th year) I thought he had been here longer.
Washington w/ Jordan (4th year) (out now, but made it to the same round)

That makes 4 of the 8 teams in the second round just as "young" a coach as the Pacers.



I'm sure you'd rather I not throw unsupported slanders at the owner of your favorite team. Carlisle was fired because Joe Dumars did not feel he could get the job done. You are entitled to dissagree with Dumars' opinion but Davidson has a well established track record of leaving decisions about who coaches the team up to those he hires to make those decisions (the President and GM).

I understand you might be about any number of things involving the season, the playoffs, and/or the posters here, but Davidson deserves none of you hatred.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be slander, rather I remember Mitch Albom writing an article on the firing and he said the reason Rick was fired is because Davidson didn't like him, or his demeanor, or along those lines. I didn't just make it up from nowhere, and I should have named the source I was going from. Maybe Albom was wrong, but I think Davidson had a lot to do with it. Especially since the whole smear campaign started soon after the firing when the natioonal media was all over Dumars and Davidson for firing such a successful coach. The smearing came from someone high up in the Pistons, but they wouldn't name sources.

naptownmenace
05-18-2005, 02:17 PM
I agreed with almost everything you wrote KStat and it's refreshing to see an outsider's perspective.

The one though that I came away with from this game, well season actually, is that the Pacers have built a team of good defenders with not one single above average shooter. Reggie used to man that role but he's simply average at this point (his 3pt shooting this season has been pretty abysmal).

Now compare the Pacers roster to Detroit's. Detroit has a large collection of good defenders as well, however, player's 1 through 4 can shoot the rock with range out to the three-point line. They aren't the best shooters in the league but Sheed and Rip have to be near the top for their respective positions. Billups, Rip, Sheed, and Prince rarely ever miss a wide open shot and have enough offensive skill to hit plenty of the tough ones as well.

It's funny how this team is a total flip flop of the 2000 team. That team could light it up but had too many defensive deficiencies to win it all. I'm starting to think this team has too many offensive deficiencies to win it all.

Nevertheless, this series isn't over yet and I still think that it's going the distance. If the Pacers could just knock down some shots or just the wide open ones, they could possibly win the series. I don't have a lot of confidence in them doing that though.

Kstat
05-18-2005, 02:25 PM
Alright I have to differ here. Has any coach won the Championship in his first through fourth year as a head coach?

Phil Jackson, Greg Poppovich, Rudy Tomjanovich, KC Jones, Bill Fitch (I think), Tommy Heinson, Bill Sharman.......

Diesel
05-18-2005, 02:32 PM
I agreed with almost everything you wrote KStat and it's refreshing to see an outsider's perspective.

The one though that I came away with from this game, well season actually, is that the Pacers have built a team of good defenders with not one single above average shooter. Reggie used to man that role but he's simply average at this point (his 3pt shooting this season has been pretty abysmal).

Now compare the Pacers roster to Detroit's. Detroit has a large collection of good defenders as well, however, player's 1 through 4 can shoot the rock with range out to the three-point line. They aren't the best shooters in the league but Sheed and Rip have to be near the top for their respective positions. Billups, Rip, Sheed, and Prince rarely ever miss a wide open shot and have enough offensive skill to hit plenty of the tough ones as well.

It's funny how this team is a total flip flop of the 2000 team. That team could light it up but had too many defensive deficiencies to win it all. I'm starting to think this team has too many offensive deficiencies to win it all.

Nevertheless, this series isn't over yet and I still think that it's going the distance. If the Pacers could just knock down some shots or just the wide open ones, they could possibly win the series. I don't have a lot of confidence in them doing that though.

I'll agree with you on that how difficult is it to guard them when you have to extend you defense all the way to the 3pt line to guard positions 1-4.

I'm confident with Artest and major improvement from Harrison where he can be our starting center or at least play a major role we'll be in the title hunt but does this team have the offensive philosophy and shooters in place to take on and beat detroit. We can't seem to shoot over 35% agaisnt this team. The only shooters we have on this team is Freddy Jones whos been missing in action in the playoffs, James Jones, Steven Jackson as KStat has pointed out whos better driving to the basket and posting up then relying on long jumpers and Bender the big question mark who can't seem to stay on the floor. I don't no if this bunch has what it takes to get us past Detroit next season.

Fool
05-18-2005, 02:33 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean it to be slander, rather I remember Mitch Albom writing an article on the firing and he said the reason Rick was fired is because Davidson didn't like him, or his demeanor, or along those lines. I didn't just make it up from nowhere, and I should have named the source I was going from. Maybe Albom was wrong, but I think Davidson had a lot to do with it. Especially since the whole smear campaign started soon after the firing when the natioonal media was all over Dumars and Davidson for firing such a successful coach. The smearing came from someone high up in the Pistons, but they wouldn't name sources.

No problem. The above is much more fair (or perhaps, understandable) then just saying "Davidson is an old jerk" (when by all reports he is a very nice person. I would think its hard to be an unpleasant billionaire).

Its pretty well known that Carlisle didn't get along well with the "front office" here. Radio hosts here joke about Carlisle getting fired for, "not saying hello to the secretaries." The subject has been brought up many times here and I am sure there are plenty who would enjoy getting into the discussion. My belief of the situations rides on the assumption that Dumars wouldn't fire a guy he thought could get his team a championship, just because they never had dinner together. But everyone is entitled to their own.

Kstat
05-18-2005, 02:35 PM
It wasn't Bill Davidson that disliked Carlisle, as much as it was Tom Wilson, the only other guy above Dumars on the food chain.

DisplacedKnick
05-18-2005, 02:45 PM
Phil Jackson, Greg Poppovich, Rudy Tomjanovich, KC Jones, Bill Fitch (I think), Tommy Heinson, Bill Sharman.......

Bill Russell, Pat Riley

DisplacedKnick
05-18-2005, 02:48 PM
Don't forget:

Miami w/ SVG (2nd year)
Pheonix w/ D'Antoni (4th year)
Washington w/ Jordan (4th year) (out now, but made it to the same round)

With Dallas, that makes 4 of the other 7 teams in the second round with coaches just as "young" as Rick Carlisle.



Nate McMillan's no greybeard (just retired a few years ago) and I think he's in his 4th season.

Kstat
05-18-2005, 02:51 PM
actually, if you go back 35 years, I think you'll find MOST 1st-time championship coaches did it withing their 1st 4 seasons.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 02:53 PM
Nate McMillan's no greybeard (just retired a few years ago) and I think he's in his 4th season.

actually he coached the year before Rick got the Detroit job, so 5th season I think.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 02:57 PM
Phil Jackson, Greg Poppovich, Rudy Tomjanovich, KC Jones, Bill Fitch (I think), Tommy Heinson, Bill Sharman.......

Bill Russell, Pat Riley


So how did those teams compare to Rick's teams in Detroit and here, also considering health because I'm sure no team is going to win the championship without its best players healthy.

Kstat
05-18-2005, 02:58 PM
Phil Jackson, Greg Poppovich, Rudy Tomjanovich, KC Jones, Bill Fitch (I think), Tommy Heinson, Bill Sharman.......



So how did those teams compare to Rick's teams in Detroit and here, also considering health because I'm sure no team is going to win the championship without its best players healthy.

Thats not what you asked.

You asked, "how many coaches have won it all within their 1st 4 seasons?"

All I did was give an answer.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 03:06 PM
actually, if you go back 35 years, I think you'll find MOST 1st-time championship coaches did it withing their 1st 4 seasons.

I admit I didn't research it back 35 years or actually at all, but I am surprised how many have won that early in their careers. I don't think many have done it the last 10 years (no, I didn't check) but that is mostly because of the bulls run in the 90's and the Lakers, Celtics dominance in the 80's. Players win championships more then coaches, but coaches definitely have as impact too.

No one thought Detroit was a contender when rick went there, and they improved rapidly those 2 years with rick and then with Sheed and LB.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 03:09 PM
Thats not what you asked.

You asked, "how many coaches have won it all within their 1st 4 seasons?"

All I did was give an answer.

Actually, that is what I asked but you must not have read my next sentence.
"Alright I have to differ here. Has any coach won the Championship in his first through fourth year as a head coach? I'm sure they may be one or two but then you have to look at who they had on the team and compare if Rick has had similiar talent and health in his first 4 years."

Kstat
05-18-2005, 03:12 PM
I'm sure they may be one or two

You were implying that it was a very rare feat. I was simply saying that it wasn't all that rare.

BillS
05-18-2005, 03:13 PM
So here are some corrolaries to the question.

For those coaches who won in their first four years, which year was it and how many years had they been with the team before they won?

How many of those coaches made it to the conference finals every one of those years (note that Rick hasn't not made it yet this year)?

How many of those coaches were coaching a team that had been together through the "next step" process for more than 2 years?

And, how many of those coaches got to have a phenom (like Shaq) on the team for their big year?

Kstat
05-18-2005, 03:16 PM
And, how many of those coaches got to have a phenom (like Shaq) on the team for their big year?

Thats irrelevant, because every championship team between 1980 and 2003 had one of those players.


How many of those coaches made it to the conference finals every one of those years (note that Rick hasn't not made it yet this year)?

How many of those coaches were coaching a team that had been together through the "next step" process for more than 2 years?

If you have the time and patience to look either of those things up, be my guest.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 03:19 PM
You were implying that it was a very rare feat. I was simply saying that it wasn't all that rare.

Sorry, I did think it would turn out to be rare, but I also know that the players on those teams have a great deal to do with any comparisons that can be made between the coaches.

Indyfan
05-18-2005, 03:21 PM
So here are some corrolaries to the question.

For those coaches who won in their first four years, which year was it and how many years had they been with the team before they won?

How many of those coaches made it to the conference finals every one of those years (note that Rick hasn't not made it yet this year)?

How many of those coaches were coaching a team that had been together through the "next step" process for more than 2 years?

And, how many of those coaches got to have a phenom (like Shaq) on the team for their big year?

Thanks Bills, that is what I was getting at. Now to see if any of us has time to amswer any of these questions. I think we could limit it to the last 15 - 20 years 1985 or 1990 on. That would simplify it some.

Fool
05-18-2005, 03:24 PM
So here are some corrolaries to the question.

For those coaches who won in their first four years, which year was it and how many years had they been with the team before they won?

How many of those coaches made it to the conference finals every one of those years (note that Rick hasn't not made it yet this year)?

How many of those coaches were coaching a team that had been together through the "next step" process for more than 2 years?

And, how many of those coaches got to have a phenom (like Shaq) on the team for their big year?

How many had to start parting their hair in the opposite direction to hide a balled spot?

How many could be mistaken for Jim Carey?

How many were replaced by the last coach they had beaten in the playoffs the season before they were fired?

Talk about scripting the comparison.

DisplacedKnick
05-18-2005, 03:44 PM
So here are some corrolaries to the question.

For those coaches who won in their first four years, which year was it and how many years had they been with the team before they won?

Dunno about all of them - Riley won his first year though.


How many of those coaches made it to the conference finals every one of those years (note that Rick hasn't not made it yet this year)?

No but he did not make it his first year in Detroit

I'm not all that into research to figure out all these qualifiers.

SoupIsGood
05-18-2005, 05:14 PM
I don't get too upset about Rick getting outcoached by Larry Brown. Larry Brown is probably the best in the business right now.

BTW, how is LB's future in Detroit looking so far? I haven't heard any updates on that in quite a while.... (he better leave soon :devil: )

Kstat
05-18-2005, 05:16 PM
BTW, how is LB's future in Detroit looking so far? I haven't heard any updates on that in quite a while.... (he better leave soon )

I'm %99.9 certain this is Larry's last hurrah.

brichard
05-18-2005, 10:51 PM
I don't blame Jermaine, I blame Donnie for drafting role player after role player to play alongside JO, and not picking up one guy that can take some scoring burden from him, so he doesnt have to go 1 on 2 all the time. Jermaine's a good kid, he's just in a very unfair situation.



Hmmmm... this is the one part of your post I don't agree with. Looking at this team that is playing right now, that makes sense. But, let us look at what our beginning of the year starting 5 was:

JO- All Star
Ron Artest- 2004 DPOY
Stephen Jax- Guard who's won a championship.
Reggie M.- A sage vet and former All Star.
Jeff Foster- Hustle guy and Role Player

Let's turn the tables and have the Pistons with:

Arroyo
Rasheed (Bad Shoulder)
Ben
Prince
Billups

Now, I took Hamilton out b/c we have our best player out with Artest. And without Sheed playing at 100%, you now basically are looking at scoring from Ben Wallace (not known for it unless he plays the Pacers,) Prince (Jax,) and Billups (Tinsley.)

Now if one of your scorers hits a slump, you look just as dysfunctional as the Pacer team we have on the floor. But, if everybody sucks it up things look okay. Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson are not role players in my mind but are very complete players.

I refuse to make excuses for this team b/c I want them to win a championship. And hey, injuries and suspensions are part of the game. But although my expectations are high for them, I'll always give 'em love. But for us to go out with our gun still in our holster, or shooting about as accurate as a 90 year old woman... that is not acceptable.