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Bball
05-17-2005, 11:28 PM
OK pass me the Kool Aid and a chaser of Haterade.... I am convinced that Artest was the engine that made this team run. He was our MVP last season. I'm thoroughly frustrated and right now feel convinced that JO has been totally exposed this season as soft and overrated. I severely question his ability to lead or ever lead for that matter. Just another talented player whose ego is bigger than his game which simply shrinks his ability when it is needed most.

Reggie, to a fault (IMHO) has deferred to JO these past seasons all (I assume) in an attempt to prepare him for moments like this and what has it gotten us? Let's not pretend he was a force in these playoffs last season. He had one good game against the Pistons... and we lost that.

I guess he did show up against Boston a couple of years ago... in a contract season. And we lost that series as well.

This team played it's best team basketball of the season while JO was out. That all went into the crapper the moment JO returned. He played one good game during this year's Boston series and we won it handily (by 'good' I mean he passed the ball and let the game come to him).

I know he's injured but the problems I am seeing aren't anything to do with his woeful shooting exhibition, they have to do with selfish play and a steadfast refusal to pass the ball let alone make quick decisions with it. If anything, his shoulder is making these other (lacking) aspects of his game even more glaring.

The problem IMHO is a few inches above his shoulder....

He's 26 years old... and he has been force-fed the role of leader on this team since 2000-2001. And what has it gotten us? Perhaps therein lies the problem, he was simply handed the reins of the team (was that a coaching decision, management, Reggie Miller, who?). Maybe he should've been required to earn that... Or maybe it was hoped he'd finally 'get it' if we kept pushing him... Or maybe we had to do it because some of the whispers of 'prima donna' are true and we had no choice or face sulking and cancer problems.

Why are our shots not falling someone asked... Because the offense runs thru JO and if he bogs it down then it is totally out of sync. That's why this team was not nearly so woeful with its jumpshooting when JO was out and Dale showed how to set pics, block out and rebound.

I'm not going to be surprised if JO's name comes up in trade rumors this summer. I'm having a hard time picturing a couple of former Celtics (Bird and Carlisle) actually wanting to see the ball going into a blackhole game after game. I know some of you think JO's untouchable but I think this season has shown just how far he has to go and I'm not sure the team is seeing the progress we need or they want. He's being eaten alive by the team directly ahead of us in a title chase.

I hate to say this but I now believe that Artest is actually who matters on this team. Not JO. And I question if they can co-exist.

Lastly, I think back to an article I read talking about LA's interest in JO when it was known Shaq would be traded. The writer questioned Indy's lack of interest. He said 'sure JO might give the Pacers a longer term shot a winning but Shaq could bring the Pacers their first championship and make them an immediate favorite'. Point being, the farther you look into the future the cloudier it gets. Things happen you can never imagine. The future is now. The Pacers need to quit being about "Next Year" and start focusing on the here and now.

Also, Carlisle is a great coach IF you have a mature and coachable team. But Carlisle either by design or style will let you hang yourself with very few in game adjustments. The system is what it is and you best perform in it. JO does not.

Detroit may be good BUT they aren't THAT good. This isn't about Detroit... it is all about the Pacers.

I'd prefer to see the return of the 'jump shooting' team with Dale setting screens and plays ran for Reggie... and JO on the bench... than what we are getting now. JO is not the strong point of this team. He is the weak point. Actually, with the way he's being put into the center of the offense he's the key piece to beat and that simply destroys the Pacers. And he's all too happy to oblige the opposing team and take the bait.

Yes, I am rather steamed right now.

-Bball

Mr. Pink
05-17-2005, 11:33 PM
This team played it's best team basketball of the season while JO was out. That all went into the crapper the moment JO returned. He played one good game during the Boston series and we won it handily.

I know he's injured but the problems I am seeing aren't anything to do with his woeful shooting exhibition, they have to do with selfish play and a steadfast refusal to pass the ball let alone make quick decisions with it. If anything, his shoulder is making these other (lacking) aspects of his game even more glaring.

The problem IMHO is a few inches above his shoulder....

-Bball

He knows he is injured. He knows he can't play well. He knows he can't hit a shot against the Wallace Brothers. Yet, he still plays like he can do it from the block.

I admit, I am very frustrated with JO right now, but this is showing that maybe he can't be a rounded-player. He should study this series a lot this off-season.

indytoad
05-17-2005, 11:35 PM
Amen bball. We need to find JO's e-mail address and send him a copy of this one.

IndyToad
Breaks your heart

brichard
05-17-2005, 11:41 PM
Reggie, to a fault (IMHO) has deferred to JO these past seasons all (I assume) in an attempt to prepare him for moments like this and what has it gotten us? Let's not pretend he was a force in these playoffs last season. He had one good game against the Pistons... and we lost that.


I think the most disturbing part of this series is Reggie not even attempting to throw the team on his back for another game. It is clear to me that Reggie's ankles had nothing to do with his year last year, it was all his willingness to defer. But I honestly can't comprehend how anybody, Rick and Reggie included, could be convinced that is a good decision.

One of the flaws of Rick, who is a great coach I might add, is that he is so danged predictable. I remember last year hearing that all the Pistons players knew our plays and it made it easier to defend. I understand that with perfect execution things shouldn't matter, but if there was ever a time for a surprise attack... now is it!

You said Rick didn't make good half-time adjustments, and I had never realized how true it is. For all of the wonderful things Rick is, a "changer" he isn't. I think some of this may be influenced by the steadfastness of Larry Bird as a coach.

I also appreciate your candor on JO. Although I think you may be a tad harsh on him for this playoff season, I don't think you are for his career. JO should be playing better at his age than his peers b/c he has been in the league longer than many of them. Look at how well Miami's Wade is playing. Wade is playing with ice in his veins at a very young age.

Unclebuck
05-17-2005, 11:43 PM
Bball, your post started off so well, but then I think you just were way to critical of J.O.


I will say (and I know many will jump all over me when I post this) if anyone thinks for one minute that a team with Dale, Jeff, Reg, Jax, and AJ (the March team, the jump shooting team) would score any better against the Pistons defense you are sorely mistaken.

sweabs
05-17-2005, 11:43 PM
Awesome post. Agree with everything you said, and have done so for a while now.

brichard
05-17-2005, 11:49 PM
By the way Bball..

Listening to Slick on the radio he was talking alot about making adjustments. He mentioned he had just diagramed on a napkin how to stop Rip Hamilton on double screens. :)

They also did a tremendous job getting mismatches on the Pacers.

Harmonica
05-17-2005, 11:53 PM
Lastly, I think back to an article I read talking about LA's interest in JO when it was known Shaq would be traded. The writer questioned Indy's lack of interest. He said 'sure JO might give the Pacers a longer term shot a winning but Shaq could bring the Pacers their first championship and make them an immediate favorite'. Point being, the farther you look into the future the cloudier it gets. Things happen you can never imagine. The future is now. The Pacers need to quit being about "Next Year" and start focusing on the here and now.

Pacers were certainly interested in Shaq and would've have put JO on the table had Shaq shown any desire whatsoever in coming to Indy. It simply wasn't going to happen because if I remember correctly, Shaq had to approve the trade.

Bball
05-17-2005, 11:56 PM
Pacers were certainly interested in Shaq and would've have put JO on the table had Shaq shown any desire whatsoever in coming to Indy. It simply wasn't going to happen because if I remember correctly, Shaq had to approve the trade.

My memory is that the Pacers were one of the teams Shaq publically listed... altho I have no idea what was said in private.

-Bball

Bball
05-17-2005, 11:59 PM
Bball, your post started off so well, but then I think you just were way to critical of J.O.


I will say (and I know many will jump all over me when I post this) if anyone thinks for one minute that a team with Dale, Jeff, Reg, Jax, and AJ (the March team, the jump shooting team) would score any better against the Pistons defense you are sorely mistaken.


Friday March 25, 2005 @ Detroit
Pacers 94
Pistons 81

-Bball

Bball
05-18-2005, 12:02 AM
I will say (and I know many will jump all over me when I post this) if anyone thinks for one minute that a team with Dale, Jeff, Reg, Jax, and AJ (the March team, the jump shooting team) would score any better against the Pistons defense you are sorely mistaken.

Maybe I am being naive but to me the offense the Pacers are running now is easy to defend, and made more easy by how JO is playing in it.

...And we scored 94 points at Detroit without him. I can't forget that.

-Bball

Unclebuck
05-18-2005, 12:04 AM
Come now, comparing the regular season with the playoffs is not a fair or good comparison

Jermaniac
05-18-2005, 12:06 AM
Rick is the one calling the damn plays, maybe you should blame him.

sweabs
05-18-2005, 12:06 AM
It seems as though in many aspects, Carlisle is running an offense that we have become accustomed to.........

although it was only successful when another very important HALF of the puzzle was here too...

Bball
05-18-2005, 12:07 AM
Harmonica is right on this one. It's one of the things I would have responded to.

Shaq had no interest playing, or re-signing in Indiana. We would have made a push to get him otherwise. When Donnie was asked at the time who he thought it would take to get Shaq, he said something along the lines of "At least JO" without even saying that he thought that was unreasonable or that JO was untouchable. But he then did say that Shaq didn't want to play here, which made the debate moot.

Before we get too sidetracked, the point wasn't wholly about bringing Shaq here. It was just an example of making a grab for a championship 'now' rather than thinking far out into the future and hoping the stars align.

-Bball

Bball
05-18-2005, 12:07 AM
Come now, comparing the regular season with the playoffs is not a fair or good comparison

Until the Pacers do something else it is all I have to use.... :(

-Bball

PaceBalls
05-18-2005, 12:12 AM
Before we get too sidetracked, the point wasn't wholly about bringing Shaq here. It was just an example of making a grab for a championship 'now' rather than thinking far out into the future and hoping the stars align.

-Bball

really man, who could the Pacers get for JO that would be better? that's what some are thinking about I'm sure.. All the players I would choose are "untouchable" like Tim Duncan. Maybe Pau Gasol? I dunno, whoever it would be would have to have a post game right? I just can't think of anyone who would be better/available.

Harmonica
05-18-2005, 12:13 AM
Before we get too sidetracked, the point wasn't wholly about bringing Shaq here. It was just an example of making a grab for a championship 'now' rather than thinking far out into the future and hoping the stars align.

-Bball

Well, get used to it because now you have a guy in there who's philosophy is "One year isn't really that long a time."

sweabs
05-18-2005, 12:17 AM
really man, who could the Pacers get for JO that would be better? that's what some are thinking about I'm sure.. All the players I would choose are "untouchable" like Tim Duncan. Maybe Pau Gasol? I dunno, whoever it would be would have to have a post game right? I just can't think of anyone who would be better/available.

I have an idea...but I don't want to sidetrack this thread.

PaceBalls
05-18-2005, 12:19 AM
well start up the trade JO thread then and lets hear yer idea, I'm interested in hearing what yall think while everyones real pissed off about the loss.

Bball
05-18-2005, 12:26 AM
really man, who could the Pacers get for JO that would be better? that's what some are thinking about I'm sure.. All the players I would choose are "untouchable" like Tim Duncan. Maybe Pau Gasol? I dunno, whoever it would be would have to have a post game right? I just can't think of anyone who would be better/available.

I think we can stick a fork into the fallacy that JO is anywhere near Tim Duncan's level.

As for JO...
There are quite a few players who could go 4-15 from the floor and pull down 3 rebounds against the Pistons. He's failed enough that I believe it is time to realize JO isn't going to be the answer against the Pistons.

Maybe what we need is simply a player who we don't have to force feed or try and use in a way as something they are not. I guess it depends on what we do with Artest. With JO, can we tell the emperor he has no clothers (IOW, can we tell JO he's not the star and not going to be the 'go to' player?)?

I think it is time to start considering our options.

(EDIT) I'm surprised no one has argued that JO simply came back too soon...

-Bball

Peck
05-18-2005, 12:28 AM
Well, get used to it because now you have a guy in there who's philosophy is "One year isn't really that long a time."

Are you saying that the torch has now officially been passed????

Hicks
05-18-2005, 12:37 AM
Well, get used to it because now you have a guy in there who's philosophy is "One year isn't really that long a time."

In other words we should look forward to more of the same?

3ptmiller
05-18-2005, 12:45 AM
Amen bball :amen:

ChicagoJ
05-18-2005, 10:56 AM
Gotta shuffle these around a little bit.
OK pass me the Kool Aid and a chaser of Haterade....

:buddies:


I'm thoroughly frustrated and right now feel convinced that JO has been totally exposed this season as soft and overrated. I severely question his ability to lead or ever lead for that matter. Just another talented player whose ego is bigger than his game which simply shrinks his ability when it is needed most.

That just might be true, although I'm somewhat willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, he was hurt, supsended, then hurt again. We've got high standards for JO (and we should) and he's missed them this season. But I'm willing to attribute enough of this to injury to give him another chance.


I am convinced that Artest was the engine that made this team run. He was our MVP last season.

Well, you might be right. But that isn't the point - you can't build around this guy. It goes back to the old parable about building your house on a solid rock or shifting sand, and Ron's about as unstable as they come. Team MVP or not, that's a recipe for disaster.


Reggie, to a fault (IMHO) has deferred to JO these past seasons all (I assume) in an attempt to prepare him for moments like this and what has it gotten us? Let's not pretend he was a force in these playoffs last season. He had one good game against the Pistons... and we lost that.

I guess he did show up against Boston a couple of years ago... in a contract season. And we lost that series as well.

This team played it's best team basketball of the season while JO was out. That all went into the crapper the moment JO returned. He played one good game during this year's Boston series and we won it handily (by 'good' I mean he passed the ball and let the game come to him).

I know he's injured but the problems I am seeing aren't anything to do with his woeful shooting exhibition, they have to do with selfish play and a steadfast refusal to pass the ball let alone make quick decisions with it. If anything, his shoulder is making these other (lacking) aspects of his game even more glaring.

The problem IMHO is a few inches above his shoulder....

He's 26 years old... and he has been force-fed the role of leader on this team since 2000-2001. And what has it gotten us? Perhaps therein lies the problem, he was simply handed the reins of the team (was that a coaching decision, management, Reggie Miller, who?). Maybe he should've been required to earn that... Or maybe it was hoped he'd finally 'get it' if we kept pushing him... Or maybe we had to do it because some of the whispers of 'prima donna' are true and we had no choice or face sulking and cancer problems.

Why are our shots not falling someone asked... Because the offense runs thru JO and if he bogs it down then it is totally out of sync. That's why this team was not nearly so woeful with its jumpshooting when JO was out and Dale showed how to set pics, block out and rebound.

I'm not going to be surprised if JO's name comes up in trade rumors this summer. I'm having a hard time picturing a couple of former Celtics (Bird and Carlisle) actually wanting to see the ball going into a blackhole game after game. I know some of you think JO's untouchable but I think this season has shown just how far he has to go and I'm not sure the team is seeing the progress we need or they want. He's being eaten alive by the team directly ahead of us in a title chase.

Eh, I said similar stuff in my "This team is built for the Regular Season" thread, and I really like JO. But you could be right.


I hate to say this but I now believe that Artest is actually who matters on this team. Not JO. And I question if they can co-exist.

Can anybody co-exist with Ron? IOW, is there anybody that we would let 'lead' the team. Say what you want about the Rodman/ Artest comparisons, but from what I remember Rodman was a good soldier alongside Isiah/ Dumars and alongside Jordan/ Pippen and won championships. He was a royal pain in David Robinson's @$$ and the Spurs struggled with him.

If Ron is leadable, but can't get along with JO, then perhaps the answer is to keep Ron and bring in a more effective team leader. But I don't believe Ron is 'leadable.' I think he's always going to be a risk to disrupt the team, so I don't think that's a good solution.


-snip-
Also, Carlisle is a great coach IF you have a mature and coachable team. But Carlisle either by design or style will let you hang yourself with very few in game adjustments. The system is what it is and you best perform in it. JO does not.

Very true.


Detroit may be good BUT they aren't THAT good. This isn't about Detroit... it is all about the Pacers.

:iagree:


I'd prefer to see the return of the 'jump shooting' team with Dale setting screens and plays ran for Reggie... and JO on the bench... than what we are getting now. JO is not the strong point of this team. He is the weak point. Actually, with the way he's being put into the center of the offense he's the key piece to beat and that simply destroys the Pacers. And he's all too happy to oblige the opposing team and take the bait.

Yes, I am rather steamed right now.

Why not? The other stuff is clearly not working.

DisplacedKnick
05-18-2005, 11:08 AM
From Jay
Well, you might be right. But that isn't the point - you can't build around this guy. It goes back to the old parable about building your house on a solid rock or shifting sand, and Ron's about as unstable as they come. Team MVP or not, that's a recipe for disaster.

I'd change that to building a house on a foundation made of concrete or one made of diamonds.

The diamonds look real pretty and they're sure worth a lot but chances are your house isn't gonna last too long.

ChicagoJ
05-18-2005, 11:18 AM
I'd change that to building a house on a foundation made of concrete or one made of diamonds.

The diamonds look real pretty and they're sure worth a lot but chances are your house isn't gonna last too long.

I like that analogy.

grace
05-18-2005, 12:14 PM
My frustrated rambling:

Dear Fellow Earthings,

Do you even realize I'm gone? It seems I have traveled to an alternate universe where the men all have PMS. It's really quite frustrating for me. They don't even seem to realize their affliction.

"How bad can it be?" you female Earthlings ask. Example: it's my time of the month and they are more hysterical than I am.

Male Earthlings, I must beg a favor. Please send all the chocloate you can spare, :lollypop: too. :lurk: doesn't seem to be doing the trick. I doubt flowers would help. Maybe a car care magazine. DO NOT send SI or any other sports related material. That seems to be what sets them off.

Sincerely,
Earthing that just wants to go home.:cry:

Natston
05-18-2005, 04:18 PM
I feel that JO can be a great cog in a great machine, and I know the other parts around him have been questionable from time to time. However JO tries his hardest to make his own shape and it isn't going to work on any team. I get very frustrated watching him abandon the 'little things', and frankly it's because of this that the problem isn't little anymore. I tired of him not blocking out anyone while he watches everyone soar in for the board or tap it back out. Even when he isn't barking at the refs or taunting someone else, he takes his sweet *** time coming up the court.

Tom White
05-18-2005, 07:17 PM
Bball -

I have been so honked off at the way this team has played that I have not even bothered posting for a long time. Most of that frustration has been with O'Neal AND Carlisle.

The ONLY part of your original post I disagree with is when you called Carlisle a great coach.

A great coach makes adjustments and realizes quickly what is working and what is not.

Carlisle does neither of these.

Thanks for posting what I have been thinking!