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SoupIsGood
05-17-2005, 09:20 PM
WHY is our offense so bad?

BillS
05-17-2005, 09:21 PM
Completely dead legs. No legs, no lift.

Detroit denies the easy paint shots.

Jermaniac
05-17-2005, 09:27 PM
We cant shoot, we cant pass,our only low post option is getting shut down. There go my 3.

canyoufeelit
05-17-2005, 09:27 PM
Honestly? Bad shot selection. That's on everyone, obviously JO being the worst but Reggie definitely a close second. No ball movement whatsoever. ISOs every possession. Most of the starters don't shoot a high % anyway. Poor fundamentals, not being able to create your own shot plus not being able to hit shots under defensive pressure. And last but not leist the Palace isn't a good 3 pt shooting gym like Staples Center.

3ptmiller
05-17-2005, 09:29 PM
We just... sucked

Bball
05-17-2005, 09:31 PM
JO is the centerpiece of this team and we try and run everything thru him. He's soft, injured, and overrated...and bogs down the offense and causes rebounding problems. He continually forces the issue rather than letting the game come to him.

No way is he ready to lead this team and I seriously question if he will ever get there. I base that on his dismal performance this year (not just the playoffs) and the fact he continues to think he can lead this team while he forces shots and refuses to play team ball.

And it is now clear to me that our MVP last year was Ron Artest. Hello UB...

What is this team's record the last two years without JO?

-Bball

purdue101
05-17-2005, 09:38 PM
bad shot selection and no effort. second quarter the pistons played arroyo and billups for about a 6-8 min stretch with reggie in the game. reggie has 4-5 inches on both, how many times did we post him up? zero.

BigMac
05-17-2005, 09:40 PM
No movement on offense. It's easy to guard someone who is standing still. I think that the dope has caught up with the guys on the team. Stay off the weed. Concentrate on basketball. Carlisle: Wake up. JO CANNOT play aginst Reshweed. Sit him. If they don't want to play hard against their buddies, then forget it. Sit your *** on the bench. I'm so sick and tired of this team it's pathetic. This IS why Reggie is retiring. A bunch of guys with no heart. Maybe JO and Rasheed can mate and have little little crack babies. I'm so pissed off right now. Especially at JO for forgetting his heart in the second round of the playoffs. I hope some of these guys read this because it is how I really feel right now, as if they give a ****. Sick. I've wasted too much time and money on this team to see **** play like that. Just stand around and wait for the ball and then try to go one on one with someone. Pitiful. Grade school basketball.

BigDawg44
05-17-2005, 09:40 PM
WE CANNOT MAKE LAYUPS!!!!!!!

SoupIsGood
05-17-2005, 09:41 PM
First, I would like to agree, Detroit plays defense like no other. That was scary out there.

As for JO, I'm kind of split on how I feel about him. Part of me thinks that perhaps this year has shed that "untouchable" label from him for this offseason, but another part of me thinks, after this messed-up, straight from hell year, perhaps everyone on the roster should get another chance before anything drastic is done. Maybe things just didn't swing our way this season, and we should give JO, Ron, Tinsley, Dale and....... even Bender another chance to make things work.

BigMac
05-17-2005, 09:43 PM
First, I would like to agree, Detroit plays defense like no other. That was scary out there.

As for JO, I'm kind of split on how I feel about him. Part of me thinks that perhaps this year has shed that "untouchable" label from him for this offseason, but another part of me thinks, after this messed-up, straight from hell year, perhaps everyone on the roster should get another chance before anything drastic is done. Maybe things just didn't swing our way this season, and we should give JO, Ron, Tinsley, Dale and....... even Bender another chance to make things work.


Stop making excuses for these guys. When the day is over, we're sobbing in our beers (or soft drinks as it may be) and they go home still multi-millionaires with many years on their guaranteed contracts. They don't care. They just don't care.

PaceBalls
05-17-2005, 09:45 PM
JO is the centerpiece of this team and we try and run everything thru him. He's soft, injured, and overrated...and bogs down the offense and causes rebounding problems. He continually forces the issue rather than letting the game come to him.

No way is he ready to lead this team and I seriously question if he will ever get there. I base that on his dismal performance this year (not just the playoffs) and the fact he continues to think he can lead this team while he forces shots and refuses to play team ball.

And it is now clear to me that our MVP last year was Ron Artest. Hello UB...

What is this team's record the last two years without JO?

-Bball
I actually agree with you on this post, but for tonight's game only. JO sucked *** both sides of the court, if the blame could be put on one person it would be him with Tinsley next in line. I think after a offseason with him workin hard to lose some weight get quicker and fix up that shoulder... you know the one he shoots with? He'll be much better off.

canyoufeelit
05-17-2005, 09:46 PM
Last offseason I recall thinking that I wanted to trade him straight up for Elton Brand. This year IMO that can't happen fast enough. I want a tough inside player and I'm ****ing sick of the ****ing missed 5 foot fadeaways.


Shaq got traded: nobody is untouchable.

SoupIsGood
05-17-2005, 09:47 PM
Stop making excuses for these guys. When the day is over, we're sobbing in our beers (or soft drinks as it may be) and they go home still multi-millionaires with many years on their guaranteed contracts. They don't care. They just don't care.

After this year, you are going to have a rough time convincing people that they don't care.

If they didn't care, we'd be sitting pretty with a top lottery pick right now.

brichard
05-17-2005, 09:47 PM
There are several issues with our offense, but to use a Will Ferrell SNL word, we have no "strategery." :)

In no particular order:

1. Nobody can hit a perimeter shot. I mean nobody. Please get Steve Kerr out of the commentator booth and in to a Pacer uniform. I can forgive Reggie having a bad game and shooting 30%. I can't forgive a game where he just doesnt' shoot.. of all people he has to score.

2. Nobody can rebound. Slick was commenting that we have to send 5 guys to the boards. We are getting no second shots and they are getting easy hoops in transition.

3. We are making zero adjustments.

4. Without JO we have no post scoring. We just have no depth at this position with somebody who can score.

5. ISO plays DON'T WORK!!!!

6. With the above points, our confidence starts sagging and our emotions flare up. Flared up emotions are bad for this team.


This team has no idea to take what the defense gives us. They have shown they can do it in the past, but this is just not good.

Bball
05-17-2005, 09:48 PM
Umm..



He is playing hurt, I really think we have to remember that.

.

I'll grant he is playing hurt and that makes his forcing things even harder to take. While it could be argued his shoulder caused his shot to be off, the fact that so many of those shots were fadeaways, too far from the basket, and/or into tough defense then I have to ask what was stopping him from making a pass? And besides that, how about some quick decisions with the basketball? It's obvious to me that JO's real problem is just a tad bit above his shoulder(s)...

-Bball

brich
05-17-2005, 09:56 PM
Well, there have been some great observations posted here already.

My big problem is that we are extremely predictable to a very good defense, and we just seem incapable of making adjustments if something isn't working.

JT drives down and generall gets into the paint, and because of Deroit's defense, he either: a: forces a shot, b: forces a pass, or c: kicks it out. By the time he kicks it out, we have time for one good shot. We tend to clang it off the rim, and then Detroit gets out in transition quickly. We have an impossible time getting an offense rebound.

Another offense that we run is numerous isolation plays. We throw it to JO in the post, where he generally wasts alot of the clock, gets double-teamed, and forces up a bad shot. Again, we generally don't get the rebound. JO obviously needs to shoot some, but based on how he is shooting in this series, he needs to look to pass.

Another variant is to run a bunch of screens and get Reggie a three. Reggie just doesn't have the touch right now, so we sporadically score, and often, we lose a long rebound. One and done, and even with the great Reggie, this is a low probability shot. I am OK with him taking some obviously, but it wouldn't kill Reggie to shot fake and get some mid-rangers. He would also benefit him and his teammates if he would get to the friggin' foul line. He is one of the best at doing this.

The final offensive scheme that we seem to run is isolating Jackson out on the wing. This is ugly, but it seems to be the most effective offense that we run for a few reasons. Jackson can score inside and outside, he drives, and on games like tonight, he actually passes. He can be a black hole, but I think he was pretty unselfish tonight.

That to me in a nutshell is our entire offense. It is lumbering, predictable, and so far not effective. We need to at minimal do two things to beat the Pistons. One is we need to move the freaking ball to get the best shot, and two, we need to make these good looks. The Pistons are packing us in down low, and we are going to have to make some mid-range, not all freakin' 3 pointers, to loosen up their D inside.

Rick also needs to make player changes. The definition of insanity is to keep trying the same things and then expecting to get different results. He needs to utilize the bench more. If a guy isn't moving the ball, then sit him down. If a guy is trying, but his stroke isn't there, then sit him down. Is a guy is sulking on defense because his offense isn't there, then sit him down. Platoon, use the troops, and try to make positive changes. Chances are the guys on the bench will know why they are there, and they will come back in with their heads straight.

We keep trying the same unsuccesful thing over and over again. It is like watching someone try and chop down a tree with a marshmallow.

Hoop
05-17-2005, 10:12 PM
They don't care. They just don't care.
Hogwash!

Unclebuck
05-17-2005, 10:12 PM
Completely dead legs. No legs, no lift.

Detroit denies the easy paint shots.


ditto

Unclebuck
05-17-2005, 10:14 PM
. They don't care. They just don't care.

That is total bull ****.

Your comments really **** me off.

Truly idiotic comments.

I'll chalk them up to you just being frustrated

Suaveness
05-17-2005, 10:16 PM
That is total bull ****.

Your comments really **** me off.

Truly idiotic comments.

I'll chalk them up to you just being frustrated

Woa :o

purdue101
05-17-2005, 10:18 PM
i think they care in a sense but i just don't think they have that killer instinct, sense of urgency, or willingness to step it up a notch and put forth 100% effort.

they're still young and somewhat immature.

Hoop
05-17-2005, 10:23 PM
That is total bull ****.

Your comments really **** me off.

Truly idiotic comments.

I'll chalk them up to you just being frustrated
You'll get yelled at for calling people idiots. ;)

SoupIsGood
05-17-2005, 10:26 PM
That is total bull ****.

Your comments really **** me off.

Truly idiotic comments.

I'll chalk them up to you just being frustrated

Woah! UB going at it! :lurk:


I agree with the guy above me, they can care and not have that 'killer instinct'.

There are a lot of things I worry about with this team, but not trying, or having a lackadaisical attitude is not one of them.

pacerwaala
05-17-2005, 10:29 PM
JO is the centerpiece of this team and we try and run everything thru him. He's soft, injured, and overrated...and bogs down the offense and causes rebounding problems. He continually forces the issue rather than letting the game come to him.

No way is he ready to lead this team and I seriously question if he will ever get there. I base that on his dismal performance this year (not just the playoffs) and the fact he continues to think he can lead this team while he forces shots and refuses to play team ball.

And it is now clear to me that our MVP last year was Ron Artest. Hello UB...

What is this team's record the last two years without JO?

-Bball



This concept of looking at records when JO or a main player out is very misleading. When JO is not a Pacer is when you would know his value. While he is not playing well now, believe me NBA teams need 20 points, 10 boards and 3 block guys. It is easy to win a few games when your main guy is not in the lineup.

Bball
05-17-2005, 10:46 PM
This concept of looking at records when JO or a main player out is very misleading. When JO is not a Pacer is when you would know his value. While he is not playing well now, believe me NBA teams need 20 points, 10 boards and 3 block guys.

Well... we could use that right now...


It is easy to win a few games when your main guy is not in the lineup.

It's much tougher when he's suspended for the season. :eek:

-Bball

BigMac
05-17-2005, 10:46 PM
After this year, you are going to have a rough time convincing people that they don't care.

If they didn't care, we'd be sitting pretty with a top lottery pick right now.

I didn't say that they didn't care, I'm saying that they don't care. They don't care now.

Same **** as last year. Excuses. Excuses. Bottom line. You go out and you move without the ball, take good shots, keep working. You don't have your opponent (enemy) over to your house to watch fights and smoke weed (JO).

Period.

brichard
05-17-2005, 10:46 PM
Okay Unclebuck, here is what I want to know. Do you ever blame this team for anything? I know you get frustrated when people are fair weather fans or when they say things to detract from the team. But for crying out loud, isn't it okay to question the heart of a team on a given night?

Saying the Pacers played with no heart in an individual game does not mean they are a team without heart. It means they played without passion, they didn't go for the loose balls, and they didn't play with urgency. I didn't see the game but arguably they displayed many if not all the traits I mentioned above.

This in no way detracts from an amazing season, but you have to give balanced feedback. If your team gets outhustled to each loose ball you have to call a spade a spade.

Everytime I see anything questioning one of the Pacer players, I count the seconds on my watch to see how quickly you will defend them. Sometimes I think it is warranted, but do you have to always defend them? When you get blown out like this 2 games in a row, a team deserves a kick in the butt.

They know we love 'em, but sheesh! :)

Hoop
05-17-2005, 10:51 PM
I didn't say that they didn't care, I'm saying that they don't care. They don't care now.

Same **** as last year. Excuses. Excuses. Bottom line. You go out and you move without the ball, take good shots, keep working. You don't have your opponent (enemy) over to your house to watch fights and smoke weed (JO).

Period.
So .......... I guess only one team really cares about winning each year. Every other team ends it's season with a lose, man if only the other teams cared.

PaceBalls
05-17-2005, 10:59 PM
After all this team has been through this year, I think questioning their heart is pretty unfair. I think it's more like our superstar JO has TOO MUCH heart. He is obviously too injured to play effectively right now, at least he was this game. He is trying too hard, and his bum shoulder is really effecting his play, let alone all those excess pounds and the fact he is still out of nba shape.
I give him all the credit in the world for trying to play. But he should be sitting out if he can't be effective. Which seems to be day to day. Obviously tonight he was way ineffective, and Rick shoulda sat him down after the 1st quarter.

brichard
05-17-2005, 11:02 PM
After all this team has been through this year, I think questioning their heart is pretty unfair. I think it's more like our superstar JO has TOO MUCH heart. He is obviously too injured to play effectively right now, at least he was this game. He is trying too hard, and his bum shoulder is really effecting his play, let alone all those excess pounds and the fact he is still out of nba shape.
I give him all the credit in the world for trying to play. But he should be sitting out if he can't be effective. Which seems to be day to day. Obviously tonight he was way ineffective, and Rick shoulda sat him down after the 1st quarter.

Well they got outhustled, I have a hard time saying a team played with heart when they got outhustled.

Unclebuck
05-17-2005, 11:15 PM
You'll get yelled at for calling people idiots. ;)


I did not call anyone an idiot, I said they were idiotic comments.

Big difference.

purdue101
05-17-2005, 11:37 PM
Okay Unclebuck, here is what I want to know. Do you ever blame this team for anything? I know you get frustrated when people are fair weather fans or when they say things to detract from the team. But for crying out loud, isn't it okay to question the heart of a team on a given night?

Saying the Pacers played with no heart in an individual game does not mean they are a team without heart. It means they played without passion, they didn't go for the loose balls, and they didn't play with urgency. I didn't see the game but arguably they displayed many if not all the traits I mentioned above.

This in no way detracts from an amazing season, but you have to give balanced feedback. If your team gets outhustled to each loose ball you have to call a spade a spade.

Everytime I see anything questioning one of the Pacer players, I count the seconds on my watch to see how quickly you will defend them. Sometimes I think it is warranted, but do you have to always defend them? When you get blown out like this 2 games in a row, a team deserves a kick in the butt.

They know we love 'em, but sheesh! :)


i agree. i think sometimes the attitude among our organization and some fans is a setback for this team in the longrun. i hate using analogies but it reminds me of parents who love there kids so much, they refuse to discipline them and instead defend them. these kids crumble in the real world b/c they have no sense of identity, independence, or responsibility.

excuses can go only so far. i can't count how many times i read excuses (myself included) for artest when he smashed a courtside tv. then it was a 150,000 dollar camera. then it was when he jacked rip in the face in a critical playoff game, then it was when he wanted to do a rap album. and then finally it came back and bit us in the *** on 11/19.

tough love is the best love. this team needs someone to not only let them know how talented they are, but always let them know when they **** up. we'll never be a championship team until this team takes responsibility.

i don't question anyones passion for this team, but i wish sometimes they would realize that defending them at all times (especially when they are in the wrong) is not helping them mature and take it to the next level. it's just causing a continous cycle of coming up short.

i'm not calling anyone in particular out on this, b/c i think a lot of us are guilty of it, myself included at times.

sweabs
05-17-2005, 11:40 PM
JO is the centerpiece of this team and we try and run everything thru him. He's soft, injured, and overrated...and bogs down the offense and causes rebounding problems. He continually forces the issue rather than letting the game come to him.

No way is he ready to lead this team and I seriously question if he will ever get there. I base that on his dismal performance this year (not just the playoffs) and the fact he continues to think he can lead this team while he forces shots and refuses to play team ball.

And it is now clear to me that our MVP last year was Ron Artest. Hello UB...

What is this team's record the last two years without JO?

-Bball

Thank you for completely summing up my thoughts on this subject.

Look, I'm hard on Jermaine; but I have every reason to be. He is our franchise player and we are paying him franchise-player-type-money.

So sure, some of you can say that I "left my brains at the door" when I critique Jermaine's play, but let's be honest...is he really ready for next year? Until then, I will keep dreaming of Bosh.

Unclebuck
05-17-2005, 11:54 PM
I didn't say that they didn't care, I'm saying that they don't care. They don't care now.

Same **** as last year. Excuses. Excuses. Bottom line. You go out and you move without the ball, take good shots, keep working. You don't have your opponent (enemy) over to your house to watch fights and smoke weed (JO).

Period.


so you know they were smoking weed. I would like to know that.

Bimac, I know you have some inside info from time to time, so if you don't or can't devulge the info here, send me a PM. I want to know if they were

Unclebuck
05-18-2005, 12:01 AM
Okay Unclebuck, here is what I want to know. Do you ever blame this team for anything? I know you get frustrated when people are fair weather fans or when they say things to detract from the team. But for crying out loud, isn't it okay to question the heart of a team on a given night?

Saying the Pacers played with no heart in an individual game does not mean they are a team without heart. It means they played without passion, they didn't go for the loose balls, and they didn't play with urgency. I didn't see the game but arguably they displayed many if not all the traits I mentioned above.

This in no way detracts from an amazing season, but you have to give balanced feedback. If your team gets outhustled to each loose ball you have to call a spade a spade.

Everytime I see anything questioning one of the Pacer players, I count the seconds on my watch to see how quickly you will defend them. Sometimes I think it is warranted, but do you have to always defend them? When you get blown out like this 2 games in a row, a team deserves a kick in the butt.

They know we love 'em, but sheesh! :)


Pacers were horrible tonight. It was embarassing to be a pacers fans tonight. The team gave in (different from giving up) during the 3rd quarter.

I wanted to kick my TV when I saw Jackson leaking out and not staying to get rebounds. I wanted to give up myself when I watched the game tonight.

The pacers were horrible tonight, bad, terrible, shockingly bad.

Do I need to go on.

The only defending I've done tonight was a little bit of J.O and I became enraged when soemone suggested the players don't care.

But if you want me to defend the players tonight, I'm not going to do it, they don't deserve it.

PaceBalls
05-18-2005, 12:07 AM
so you know they were smoking weed. I would like to know that.

Bimac, I know you have some inside info from time to time, so if you don't or can't devulge the info here, send me a PM. I want to know if they were


I think its more like they need to smoke some weed... get in the zone and hit a freakin jumper already

sweabs
05-18-2005, 12:10 AM
While we are on the topic of Jermaine and Rasheed, does anyone else get the feeling that Jermaine is intimidated by Rasheed? As if he wants to be his best buddy, and doesn't want to do anything to hurt him? Perhaps Jermaine values their friendship more than Rasheed does? Or, does anyone else get that vibe that Rasheed is the loud-mouthed, talk trash to Jermaine-type guy, while Jermaine is the laid-back friend, who does not really stick up for himself and just kind of takes what Rasheed says and accepts it?

Just this weird vibe I get...

purdue101
05-18-2005, 12:22 AM
i think there is a greater chance that sheed could get into jo's head then vice versa. rasheed mentored jo in portland and i think has somewhat control over their relationship.

last year it pissed me off to hear rasheed say "i told you all mother ****as" to our crowd and then read about he and j.o. going out to eat at ruth chris steakhouse after that really tough loss.

that stuff rubs off on our young guys. after boston kicked our butts on our homecourt in the first round i saw edwards & harrison out at broadripple that very night living it up. both were drinking, laughing, had girls on each arm, not a worry in the world.

Shade
05-18-2005, 12:48 AM
Exhaustion + Pistons' D = bad...REALLY BAD...offense

BigMac
05-18-2005, 06:33 AM
I did not call anyone an idiot, I said they were idiotic comments.

Big difference.

That's how I took it. No problem here. Though I still feel the way I did and don't feel that they were idiotic comments.

indygeezer
05-18-2005, 07:05 AM
JO is soft


Tinsley likes to beat his head against the wall...over and over


Reggie....vanished ???


DD...........is supposed to only play 6-10 minutes per game, but we can't do without him

Jax is playing out of position, but is the only one that seems to be bringing it.


and the bench is bipolar.....

Alabama-Redneck
05-18-2005, 07:40 AM
Where is Dr. Phil when you need him !!! :o :D



:cool:

BigMac
05-18-2005, 09:25 AM
JO is soft


Tinsley likes to beat his head against the wall...over and over


Reggie....vanished ???


DD...........is supposed to only play 6-10 minutes per game, but we can't do without him

Jax is playing out of position, but is the only one that seems to be bringing it.


and the bench is bipolar.....

So in a word (or two or three)... we suck again! (apologies to Rob Schneider in The Waterboy).

:)

MagicRat
05-18-2005, 09:52 AM
I.....don't feel that they were idiotic comments.

Can I ask you to reconsider on "mate and have little crack babies".........:-p

grace
05-18-2005, 11:08 AM
I didn't say that they didn't care, I'm saying that they don't care. They don't care now.

Same **** as last year. Excuses. Excuses. Bottom line. You go out and you move without the ball, take good shots, keep working.

If it were any other year but this year with Reggie retiring I might consider that the team just doesn't care.

As for game strategy and execusion I hate to admit it, but maybe it's time we admit that in a series at this time of the year Detroit is better than us.

:zip::suicide:

DisplacedKnick
05-18-2005, 11:11 AM
As for game strategy and execusion I hate to admit it, but maybe it's time we admit that in a series at this time of the year Detroit is better than us.

:zip::suicide:

I'd be able to admit that a lot easier if I saw both teams playing their top game at the same time.

That doesn't mean hitting shots - it does mean both teams running their offense, playing tough D, low TO's and rebounding.

If that happens with both teams and Indy loses by 10-15 then I'll admit it.

Or since Detroit's up 3-2 I guess Detroit IS the better team - because they've been more able to stick with their game plan.

I just LOVE giving contradictory opinions in the same post. :confused: Who's gonna disagree with me - and why? :devil: