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abington
05-14-2005, 01:00 AM
Pacers lose Artest but find Themselves
Indianapolis

THERE are two Indiana Pacers teams.

There are the prebrawl Pacers, whose symbol was Ron Artest: tough, physical, bruising. This was a team for which toughness meant tracking down perpetrators and handing out instant justice.

Then there are the postbrawl Pacers with multiple identities, a team for which toughness has meant perseverance and overcoming adversity, taking its punishment and making the best of a difficult situation.

I like these Pacers a lot better, and I'm not alone.

Who could have guessed on Nov. 19, after the horrific brawl at the Palace of Auburn Hills, that Indiana would evolve into an admirable underdog?

Several Pacers, led by Artest, charged into the stands to beat up Pistons fans they suspected of throwing objects at them. It was frontier justice; the Pacers became do-it-themselves judges, juries and executioners. The altercation sparked a near riot and resulted in several suspensions, including Artest's for the rest of the season.

After a morning practice on Friday, the Pacers' Austin Croshere said he had sensed the team's change in attitude. "You see in sports where a team will make excuses for themselves, or when things don't go well, they blame it on other people," he said. "We just refused to do that. We had every opportunity to do that. We had every opportunity to make every excuse in the book, and we just refused to do that."

A week ago, I felt that the Pacers could not win without Artest. But now I'm not so sure that they don't have what it takes to reach the final. Last night, they continued their unlikely playoff run and took a 2-1 series lead over Detroit with a 79-74 victory. Shaquille O'Neal's deep thigh bruise puts a serious dent in Miami's chances. His absence opens the door for every playoff team in the East, including Indiana.

While Indiana battles Detroit, Artest is on a Band-Aid tour to repair his image. He is going on talk shows and giving magazine interviews, putting his spin on his behavior and his suspension. But Artest is missing the point.

"His heart is in the right place," Croshere said.

But Artest's heart isn't the issue. His emotions are. This is a matter that is deeply rooted and cannot be addressed with a mere "I'm sorry" on ESPN.

Croshere said he had watched part of Artest's interview. "I just turned it off because it's kind of at the point now where I think everybody on the team is like, 'Well, I'll believe it when I see it,' " Croshere said.

"Ron is a good guy," he added. "I see him in practice, I go up and talk to him. We talk about our kids all the time. But what's going to happen in a game where his guy gets 25 or 30 points or he misses a shot at the end of a game; he doesn't get the ball at the end of a game; high-stress situation. How does he handle that?

"Ron's made a lot of mistakes since he's been here, and he needs to atone for that."

The Pacers are looking for deeds, not words.

"These interviews are fine," Croshere said. "I'm sure he's learned from his mistakes, but you're not putting him in a situation where he's made mistakes. It's not a high-pressure situation to sit in front of a camera and answer questions."

The fallout from the brawl has had an upside for Indiana. A number of players who craved playing time - Fred Jones, James Jones and Croshere - had the opportunity to play, and have played well. The starters and the stars, except for Artest, are back from injuries and suspensions. Those who were playing more minutes are back to being role players, but the increased playing time has benefited everyone on the team.

The fallout from the brawl has this downside: The basketball intensity of this series will suffer because the physical nature of each team will, out of necessity, give way to a certain restraint.

Advantage Pacers.

The Pistons and the Pacers are walking on eggshells. The series will not be as uncompromisingly physical as it would have been had there never been a brawl. Nobody wants to be thrown out of a playoff series, and no one wants to be ejected from a game in this series. Everyone connected with the brawl is ashamed and a little embarrassed by what happened, and now the Pacers have emerged with a moral imperative. They were punished, and they have endured.

"People are drawn to an underdog story," Croshere said. "And even though we shot ourselves in the foot, we've kind of become the underdog since that incident."

I'm not convinced the Pacers would have made this great run had Artest been in the lineup. Reggie Miller would not have become the clutch player of old; last night, he made a field goal with 10.7 seconds left and also made four free throws down the stretch. The Pacers have created an identity without Artest.

In fact, the question is not what would happen if Artest were playing. The reality for Artest to consider is that if he were here, the Pacers might not be.

E-mail: wcr@nytimes.com



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abington
05-14-2005, 01:01 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/14/sports/basketball/14rhoden.html?pagewanted=print

Hicks
05-14-2005, 01:08 AM
Wow; pretty honest comments from Cro.

Unclebuck
05-14-2005, 01:09 AM
Interesting article. The writer said many things some of you have said recently.

I also find nothing wrong with anything Croshere said in this article. It is all true. The players could not care any less what Artest says on ESPN. And Artest has to repair his image and his place on the Pacers through his actions not by what he says in some interview.

One last thing. Cro is by far the best interview on the team. Better than J.O.


I did not take anything Cro said as him having harsh feeling towards Ron. Cro was just very honest in his assessment of the situation.

This might surprise some of you, but I don't disagree with a word that Cro said

ChicagoJ
05-14-2005, 01:13 AM
-snip-
"Ron is a good guy," he added. "I see him in practice, I go up and talk to him. We talk about our kids all the time. But what's going to happen in a game where his guy gets 25 or 30 points or he misses a shot at the end of a game; he doesn't get the ball at the end of a game; high-stress situation. How does he handle that?

"Ron's made a lot of mistakes since he's been here, and he needs to atone for that."

The Pacers are looking for deeds, not words.

"These interviews are fine," Croshere said. "I'm sure he's learned from his mistakes, but you're not putting him in a situation where he's made mistakes. It's not a high-pressure situation to sit in front of a camera and answer questions."
-snip-

:whistle:

Bball
05-14-2005, 01:16 AM
If I was Croshere I would keep an eye on Sassan at all times. Sounds like Cro has been drinking Haterade! ;)

-Bball

Bball
05-14-2005, 01:17 AM
What??!?! I thought they all wanted to make babies with Artest and ride with him to the crazy house? How dare Croshere say that!

Cro must ride in a different car... not together with the other guys....


-Bball

SoupIsGood
05-14-2005, 01:32 AM
like, 'Well, I'll believe it when I see it,' " Croshere said.



Hmm.... it seems I got blasted just the other day, for saying this....

:whistle:

DisplacedKnick
05-14-2005, 01:33 AM
I've been saying that for so long ... all the extra stuff he's doing doesn't matter - we already know he's a kind, gentle, caring man off the basketball court - he always has been according to the stories. But that has no correlation to his on-court behavior.

MagicRat
05-14-2005, 02:01 AM
This is all a plot by Jay and Diamond Dave. Poor Austin was just minding his own business when they hit him with the Haterade bath........

http://home.comcast.net/%7Emagic_rat/haterade_bath.jpg

skyfire
05-14-2005, 02:37 AM
Harsh feelings? I dunno if i'd call them harsh.
Its straight to the point, Ron's made mistakes, he needs to atone for them. That isn't going to happen until his teammates see him do it in a high pressure situation on the court.

sixthman
05-14-2005, 02:46 AM
While I may not disagree with much Cro said, I sure disagree with what the New Yorker had to say:

This is nonsense.


I'm not convinced the Pacers would have made this great run had Artest been in the lineup. Reggie Miller would not have become the clutch player of old; last night, he made a field goal with 10.7 seconds left and also made four free throws down the stretch. The Pacers have created an identity without Artest.

Last year with a flawed team we won 60 games and made it to the East finals.

He doesn't think we would have beaten Boston in less than seven this year with Artest? He doesn't think we would have been greater than a sixth seed?

Anthem
05-14-2005, 03:13 AM
While I may not disagree with much Cro said, I sure disagree with what the New Yorker had to say:

This is nonsense.

Last year with a flawed team we won 60 games and made it to the East finals.

He doesn't think we would have beaten Boston in less than seven this year with Artest? He doesn't think we would have been greater than a sixth seed?

Good post.

Mushmouth
05-14-2005, 03:54 AM
all right, first time I've really honestly questioned what his teammates thing about him.

Wow


wow

Will Galen
05-14-2005, 03:55 AM
I think the title of this thread is very misleading. The article proves he likes Ron, he just has to be shown that Artest has changed. Nothing harsh about that judgement.

Anthem
05-14-2005, 03:59 AM
"Ron's made a lot of mistakes since he's been here, and he needs to atone for that."

This is, I think, the heart of what Croshere feels about Ron. I think it's absolutely fair, and some may say it's generous. But let me point out what it doesn't say. It doesn't say Croshere thinks Ron should be traded. It doesn't say anybody on the team does. It does say they want him to do really really well to balance all the things he screwed up (and he's done more than his share). If the guys on the team didn't want to play with Ron, it seems like we'd be hearing "Ron's made a lot of mistakes, and frankly guys are sick of dealing with them."

Ron can't atone for his mistakes by playing on another team.

Peck
05-14-2005, 06:01 AM
Never to be outdone in my Pacers P.R. conspiracy world I live in I have to ask a question.

Now I may be paranoid but to me the Pacers players have always followed a very strict code of conduct in terms of interviews. You never hear any dirt nor do you ever hear any of the behind scene action.

The local press have always been willing accomplises in this but you still never heard a word in the N.Y. or Chicago Papers with direct quotes either.

I'm just curious since it was Croshere if this wasn't something that the Pacers management wanted said? Austin can be accused of a lot of things but the one thing I think we can all agree on is that he is a good soldier in survice to the Pacers. My guess is that Donnie wanted this out there or it wouldn't have been.

I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that his was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?

Drewtone
05-14-2005, 07:18 AM
[Sassan] Naw, must just be some kind of inner-city hatred with Austin. [\Sassan]

RWB
05-14-2005, 07:50 AM
I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that his was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?

No, this was all Austin here and I'm in the complete minority probably when I say Austin needs to keep his mouth shut. Be a man and tell Ron Artest to his face what you think Cro and better yet Austin should concern himself how he's reacting to pressure situations right now since he's still playing for the team. :mad:

able
05-14-2005, 07:59 AM
No, this was all Austin here and I'm in the complete minority probably when I say Austin needs to keep his mouth shut. Be a man and tell Ron Artest to his face what you think Cro and better yet Austin should concern himself how he's reacting to pressure situations right now since he's still playing for the team. :mad:
I am joining that minority, these comments are "out of line" and definitely harder to swallow from #12 in the rotation, who would be most likely not even on the roster had Ron been available.
Better he shows what he's made of, since he will top the list of overpaid players again next year.

Also if you read the article "carefully" you will notice that Austin didn't say that much, most of it is the writer "posing" the statements or "thinking aloud".

indygeezer
05-14-2005, 08:18 AM
Several Pacers, led by Artest, charged into the stands to beat up Pistons fans they suspected of throwing objects at them. *sigh* Will they EVER get it right? Will anyone ever call them out on this type of crap?



But to Austin. Any other year and I'd say AC was trying to force a trade. But this is his option year, he either exercizes his option and gets paid fortune to sit or he doesn't and he signs elsewhere for whatever he can get.
But hoestly, I think it is AC being AC...assuning these are direct quotes and not some hacks fantasy. But it sounds too much like what we've been saying to be mere fantasy. I especially note that AC is quoted as mentioning the 25 point leads and the blown calls and not really knowing how he'll react under pressure. I know I have mentioned that the team will be looking over their shoulder watching him (patting self on back) and never really being comfortable that nothing will happen.

I honestly do like Ron and would love to see him succeed here...but I just don't ever believe it will happen....and he owes me, the the fans, his teammates, and especially Reggie, an honest apology. One that shows he really does "get it". Unfortunately, the only way to prove it is honest is by playing 2 or 3 perfect seasons and then saying it.

indygeezer
05-14-2005, 08:26 AM
[Putting on my Peck Wannabe hat]

My odd thought that just occured to me. For all the boo hooing in yesterdays paper about Artest going to the national media with his interviews...we have to read the NY Times to get a candid interview with one of Ron's teammates? Why couldn't the Star or WNDE have gotten these comments from Austin?

DisplacedKnick
05-14-2005, 08:37 AM
I am joining that minority, these comments are "out of line" and definitely harder to swallow from #12 in the rotation, who would be most likely not even on the roster had Ron been available.


Really? Ron Artest let his team down as much as any player I can think of in NBA history - maybe in the history of sports (though I'm sure there's an example out there of a player who quit on his team at a key moment) and you don't think a player has a right to call him out on it?

If Ron wants to run around in public and do image revision then I don't see where a response is out of line. IF he comes back Artest better realize that he has a LOT to make up for. I know I wouldn't trust him - and it would take me a long time before I did.

Heck, in my Y league if a guy doesn't show up for a game and doesn't let us know we don't trust him for a while - and that's a pretty pissant situation compared to what Ron did to the Pacers.

Isaac
05-14-2005, 09:40 AM
I'm surprised Cro said that. Not sure if I like the timing so much, but I guess it doesnt really matter.

able
05-14-2005, 09:46 AM
Really? Ron Artest let his team down as much as any player I can think of in NBA history - maybe in the history of sports (though I'm sure there's an example out there of a player who quit on his team at a key moment) and you don't think a player has a right to call him out on it?

If Ron wants to run around in public and do image revision then I don't see where a response is out of line. IF he comes back Artest better realize that he has a LOT to make up for. I know I wouldn't trust him - and it would take me a long time before I did.


OK one at a time: "in NBA history"????? I suggest you read up on that history, worse "let downs" have happened a lot of the times, people "forcing" a trade and so on, so don't go there.
If you were living in the UK I would tell you to read less tabloids and form your own opinion of what you see, not what you read.
I am firmly in the camp that believes that what Jax did on 11/19 was a lot worse, I also think that Ron's "flagrant" in the ECF was nowhere near that, and I judge that upon what I see if I replay that game.

Players have every right to call him out on it, however they have every bleeding day of the week to do that, in the lockerroom, on the practise court, on the phone, as I am sure they all have his number, or they can even pop by his house, they do not need a crummy NY reporter to this for them, it is described as "class"

Ron doing image restoration, no doubt partly with help of the Pacers organization, does not need "contra weighing" by his teammate, #12 on the roster and a grossly overpaid dude at that as well.
There are enough "enemies" out there to not need this from Austin.

This "Ron went into the stands beating people up" has caught on nicely, in my book it is revisionist, watch the tapes again, see what really happened.

And Ron's "quitting" on the team? that's been hashed out enough and was not the reason he was suspended this ridiculously long period of time, surpassing a guy who tried to kill his coach, ot the lot that has been brought up for drug charges, wife beating and other niceties.
The quiting is something the team deals with, in the locker room and with management, they do not need the press to solve that.
Let me rephrase; they do not need Austin "overpaid" Croshere for it

RWB
05-14-2005, 09:49 AM
and you don't think a player has a right to call him out on it?

Rim, Austin has every right, but only in-house and not in the papers.



If Ron wants to run around in public and do image revision then I don't see where a response is out of line.

That's the reason it's ok for Austin to go public?



I honestly don't have a problem with Austin doubting Ron one bit. However I do not care one bit for calling someone out in the papers. Same as I didn't care for the way JO called out SJAX. There is a proper way, a leadership, and team mate way to do these things.

Harmonica
05-14-2005, 09:59 AM
I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that this was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?

Donnie is not going to sit down with Cro and ask him to do his bidding with the media.

Skaut_Ech
05-14-2005, 10:09 AM
Never to be outdone in my Pacers P.R. conspiracy world I live in I have to ask a question.

Now I may be paranoid but to me the Pacers players have always followed a very strict code of conduct in terms of interviews. You never hear any dirt nor do you ever hear any of the behind scene action.

The local press have always been willing accomplises in this but you still never heard a word in the N.Y. or Chicago Papers with direct quotes either.

I'm just curious since it was Croshere if this wasn't something that the Pacers management wanted said? Austin can be accused of a lot of things but the one thing I think we can all agree on is that he is a good soldier in survice to the Pacers. My guess is that Donnie wanted this out there or it wouldn't have been.

I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that his was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?


Make no mistake, the Pacer's brass have an extremely short lease on the players, and team in general. I know from first hand experience (As ussal, I can't say why.) However, I think this is Austin just plain, old speaking his mind. Good for him. I don't give a crap about the timing. I don't attribute any Machevellian undertones to it. I'm just happy to hear someone speak their mind.

BigMac
05-14-2005, 10:15 AM
Interesting article. The writer said many things some of you have said recently.

I also find nothing wrong with anything Croshere said in this article. It is all true. The players could not care any less what Artest says on ESPN. And Artest has to repair his image and his place on the Pacers through his actions not by what he says in some interview.

One last thing. Cro is by far the best interview on the team. Better than J.O.


I did not take anything Cro said as him having harsh feeling towards Ron. Cro was just very honest in his assessment of the situation.

This might surprise some of you, but I don't disagree with a word that Cro said

I agree with your thoughts 100%. I didn't see Cro as being harsh, but rather I see Cro as giving an honest assessment, something that I hope Artest can visualize happening before that situation arises so that he will handle the stressful situations better.

Interesting thought, though. If Reggie is not in the game (retired) and we're down 3, who on THIS team (as it is now) do we have to step up and bury the 3? This reiterates the fact that Reggie has to be considered the greatest all-time clutch shooter of all-time. Period. Jordan included-mostly not him because his teams were so good that he didn't have to step-up to make the last shot too many times. Jordan is a close second.

ChicagoJ
05-14-2005, 10:16 AM
No, this was all Austin here and I'm in the complete minority probably when I say Austin needs to keep his mouth shut. Be a man and tell Ron Artest to his face what you think Cro -snip-

I'd tend to agree with these comments.

I've suspected what Austin said to be true for a long time (duh?) but I never expected to see it in quotation marks.

ChicagoJ
05-14-2005, 10:22 AM
And having said that...


I am joining that minority, these comments are "out of line" and definitely harder to swallow from #12 in the rotation, who would be most likely not even on the roster had Ron been available.
Better he shows what he's made of, since he will top the list of overpaid players again next year.

Also if you read the article "carefully" you will notice that Austin didn't say that much, most of it is the writer "posing" the statements or "thinking aloud".

1) your critique of Crosehere is probably also out of line, too, but that's okay. Say what you want about Cro's contract/ talent, but he's the one guy on the team that the whole "One Goal" campaign applies to. He's about one thing, helping his team win. Sometimes he just can't do it, or it takes him too long to 'get in the groove', but he's never been accused of having an alternative agenda like so many of our 'more talented' players.

B) I pulled out Austin's direct quotes above. I'd say he spoke loud and clear. If everything is hunky-dorey with Ron praciticing with the team now, expect the chemistry issues / total lack of trust to return as soon as these guys realize Ron's a risk to hurt them in games again.

RWB
05-14-2005, 10:25 AM
Make no mistake, the Pacer's brass have an extremely short lease on the players, and team in general. I know from first hand experience (As ussal, I can't say why.)

Hey Scott, by chance do you have white hair, glasses, and maybe help the Colts/NFL on the side?

DisplacedKnick
05-14-2005, 10:29 AM
I honestly don't have a problem with Austin doubting Ron one bit. However I do not care one bit for calling someone out in the papers. Same as I didn't care for the way JO called out SJAX. There is a proper way, a leadership, and team mate way to do these things.

With Ron that's been done (adressing it in-house). For two years, maybe three.

Didn't work.

DisplacedKnick
05-14-2005, 10:33 AM
Let me rephrase; they do not need Austin "overpaid" Croshere for it

Based on their relative contributions to the team this year, Artest is far, far more overpaid than Croshere is.

able
05-14-2005, 10:37 AM
Artest is not paid for this year except the first 9 games.

A set percentage of what was due to him goes to the league/charity, the remainder is "cost saving" for the Pacers.


facts, facts, facts, the make most topics so much easier.

RWB
05-14-2005, 10:39 AM
With Ron that's been done (adressing it in-house). For two years, maybe three.

Didn't work.


This is very true Rim. However, it's management's responsibility to let that be known outside the Pacer circle if needed. Austin needs to be a good soldier (and he has) until now.

Harmonica
05-14-2005, 10:44 AM
This is very true Rim. However, it's management's responsibility to let that be known outside the Pacer circle if needed. Austin needs to be a good soldier (and he has) until now.

Management is much more dismissive about these kinds of things then you seem to think. And certainly much more dismissive than fans. What Cro said was pretty straightforward and will be taken with a grain of salt by the powers that be.

DisplacedKnick
05-14-2005, 10:54 AM
This is very true Rim. However, it's management's responsibility to let that be known outside the Pacer circle if needed. Austin needs to be a good soldier (and he has) until now.

Possibly - though I think it's very possible that, with ample evidence that dealing with Ron in-house hasn't worked, they may have decided that commenting publicly might actually have some sort of impact on him.

Personally, after what Ron did to the team, I can't argue with what any remaining Pacer has to say about him. Ron certainly hasn't worried about how his actions might impact the club. It's even more possible that the rest of the team - or at least a large portion of the players - don't want him back and they feel this is a way of getting that through as well.

Anyway, that's for Walsh and Bird, and Carlisle to work out. I'm NOT saying that players have the right to say anything they like to anyone they want - that's not true for most companies and it shouldn't be for Indy. But with Croshere's past behavior, I wonder if he was given something of a green light with this.

PacerMan
05-14-2005, 10:56 AM
[/b]

This is, I think, the heart of what Croshere feels about Ron. I think it's absolutely fair, and some may say it's generous. But let me point out what it doesn't say. It doesn't say Croshere thinks Ron should be traded. It doesn't say anybody on the team does. It does say they want him to do really really well to balance all the things he screwed up (and he's done more than his share). If the guys on the team didn't want to play with Ron, it seems like we'd be hearing "Ron's made a lot of mistakes, and frankly guys are sick of dealing with them."

Ron can't atone for his mistakes by playing on another team.


roshere said he had watched part of Artest's interview. "I just turned it off because it's kind of at the point now where I think everybody on the team is like, 'Well, I'll believe it when I see it,' " Croshere said.

Uh, that's sounds a little more "fed up" than you're willing to admit.

DisplacedKnick
05-14-2005, 10:57 AM
Artest is not paid for this year except the first 9 games.

A set percentage of what was due to him goes to the league/charity, the remainder is "cost saving" for the Pacers.


facts, facts, facts, the make most topics so much easier.

Yes it is - and the money the Pacers pay out is still listed under Ron Artest's salary, still counts against the cap and still costs them.

Whether he has to pay a penalty after the money's paid out or not, it's still his salary - the same as an encumbered paycheck is salary whether you ever see any of that money or not.

And I'm not talking tax laws or anything like that - I'm talking about how the payments from the Pacers are handled under the NBA rules - still a cash outlay and still listed as Ron Artest's salary.

PacerMan
05-14-2005, 11:00 AM
OK one at a time: "in NBA history"????? I suggest you read up on that history, worse "let downs" have happened a lot of the times, people "forcing" a trade and so on, so don't go there.
If you were living in the UK I would tell you to read less tabloids and form your own opinion of what you see, not what you read.
I am firmly in the camp that believes that what Jax did on 11/19 was a lot worse, I also think that Ron's "flagrant" in the ECF was nowhere near that, and I judge that upon what I see if I replay that game.

Players have every right to call him out on it, however they have every bleeding day of the week to do that, in the lockerroom, on the practise court, on the phone, as I am sure they all have his number, or they can even pop by his house, they do not need a crummy NY reporter to this for them, it is described as "class"

Ron doing image restoration, no doubt partly with help of the Pacers organization, does not need "contra weighing" by his teammate, #12 on the roster and a grossly overpaid dude at that as well.
There are enough "enemies" out there to not need this from Austin.

This "Ron went into the stands beating people up" has caught on nicely, in my book it is revisionist, watch the tapes again, see what really happened.

And Ron's "quitting" on the team? that's been hashed out enough and was not the reason he was suspended this ridiculously long period of time, surpassing a guy who tried to kill his coach, ot the lot that has been brought up for drug charges, wife beating and other niceties.
The quiting is something the team deals with, in the locker room and with management, they do not need the press to solve that.
Let me rephrase; they do not need Austin "overpaid" Croshere for it


HE WENT AFTER THE FANS! The fans PAY THE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to keep the NBA in limos and penthouses. What don't you grasp about the relative importance of THAT fact to the penalty Artest received? In the eyes of the NBA money grubbers, nothing more important or horrific could happen.

PacerMan
05-14-2005, 11:03 AM
I think it's a beautiful thing that he laid it on the line and clarified what guys IN THE LOCKERROOM really think about the situation.
Now we don't have to hear anymore speculative drivel on here that the team all loves him and is behind him 100%. :)

ABADays
05-14-2005, 11:04 AM
I will stand in Peck's corner on this one. This scenario seems very, very odd to me. A New York paper . . . interview Croshere of all people. Something fishy here. If I was a writer from the Times, Croshere is the last person I would approach to get a quote on the situation. I mean, he's not high profile enough so who cares?

If, indeed, true I have no problem with what he said although it would seem very out of character. Austin absolutely represents ONE GOAL more than any one player and I believe quotes of this nature would violate his own sense of "what's good for the team" without some outside influence.

I have questions about this.

FiestyFosterFanatic
05-14-2005, 11:04 AM
Everyone needs to shut up. Artest should not be doing these interviews, not during the middle of the playoffs. I think it can cause distractions...maybe it is such a distraction that is why Croshere has played like **** for a long time.

Unclebuck
05-14-2005, 11:07 AM
Never to be outdone in my Pacers P.R. conspiracy world I live in I have to ask a question.

Now I may be paranoid but to me the Pacers players have always followed a very strict code of conduct in terms of interviews. You never hear any dirt nor do you ever hear any of the behind scene action.

The local press have always been willing accomplises in this but you still never heard a word in the N.Y. or Chicago Papers with direct quotes either.

I'm just curious since it was Croshere if this wasn't something that the Pacers management wanted said? Austin can be accused of a lot of things but the one thing I think we can all agree on is that he is a good soldier in survice to the Pacers. My guess is that Donnie wanted this out there or it wouldn't have been.

I guess my question is do you think this was a heart felt talk with Austin or do you think that his was a heart felt talk with Austin at the direction of Donnie Walsh?



Peck, I must say some of your theories are a little screwy and this is sure one of them. Walsh had nothing to do with this. Cro was just speaking the truth. (keeping it real, It's all good). Sorry, does anyone else that last two phrases as much as I do.


As far as to why Cro was interviewed. First of all we have no idea who else was interviewed and said nothing more than the company line, plus if I were a reporter and wanted honest thoughtful answers I would go to Croshere first and last.

Unclebuck
05-14-2005, 11:16 AM
HE WENT AFTER THE FANS! The fans PAY THE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to keep the NBA in limos and penthouses. What don't you grasp about the relative importance of THAT fact to the penalty Artest received? In the eyes of the NBA money grubbers, nothing more important or horrific could happen.



There are a lot of things more horrific that could happen. A huge gambling ring within the NBA where players, really good players are involved throwing games.

That would kill the NBA faster than anything that could happen.

ChicagoJ
05-14-2005, 11:35 AM
Let's point out one thing about Croshere,

He's typically been the one level-headed guy on the team that could get to Ron when he would be on the cusp of an explosion.

Heck, Croshere is usually the guy calming Mr. Cool (Rick) down.

It isn't like its JO airing his rumored dirty laundry or Pollard being funny.

This is THE ONE GUY THAT SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO REACH RON WHEN HE NEEDED IT!!!!

RWB
05-14-2005, 11:36 AM
Sorry guys but the more I think about this the more upsetting it is. Here's a splendid idea why don't they just let everything out and let Austin be the spokesperson.

Reporter "Well Austin can you tell us what's going on with the team"?

Austin" Sure Jim, let me fill you in on everything. Everyone on this team hates Ron Artest except for Stephen Jackson. We don't trust him and want him gone. Actually while were on the subject most of the guys would like to see Jackson gone to because we can't trust him. We thought JO might be a leader for us, but since he was involved in the brawl as well we can't trust him either.

Reporter "Austin, we heard from some of the guys you just aren't pulling your weight and it would be nice if somehow the Pacers could fill your spot with someone else".

Austin "I you sure about that? I've haven't heard anything".

Reporter "Yes it's true. Reggie Miller pulled me to the side and told me".

Austin "Well that figures coming from someone who should have retired two years ago".

Might point is still, if you want to question someone on your team that is fine, but when it's taken outside your inner circle you better be prepared to take the same hits.

ABADays
05-14-2005, 11:44 AM
I cannot disagree with you more RWB. Croshere has pulled his weight this year and under enormous physical obstacles. It was just earlier in the year and people seem to forget.

FiestyFosterFanatic
05-14-2005, 11:44 AM
There are a lot of things more horrific that could happen. A huge gambling ring within the NBA where players, really good players are involved throwing games.

That would kill the NBA faster than anything that could happen.

To me, it's quite obvious the NBA doesn't give a **** about its fans. If they gave a **** about the fans, the games wouldn't start at 6:00, did anyone else notice how empty the place was at the start of the game? I had to bust *** just to get there on time. And if they cared about the fans, 45 dollars would get you more than a Section 225 seat.

Harmonica
05-14-2005, 11:46 AM
I will stand in Peck's corner on this one. This scenario seems very, very odd to me. A New York paper . . . interview Croshere of all people. Something fishy here. If I was a writer from the Times, Croshere is the last person I would approach to get a quote on the situation. I mean, he's not high profile enough so who cares?

If, indeed, true I have no problem with what he said although it would seem very out of character. Austin absolutely represents ONE GOAL more than any one player and I believe quotes of this nature would violate his own sense of "what's good for the team" without some outside influence.

I have questions about this.

You honestly believe Donnie Walsh sat down with Austin and asked him to go to the media on behalf of the Pacers and make a statement to the press that would be representative of how the team feels about Ron? I can't even imagine that conversation it's so preposterous.

ABADays
05-14-2005, 11:49 AM
You honestly believe Donnie Walsh sat down with Austin and asked him to go to the media on behalf of the Pacers and make a statement to the press that would be representative of how the team feels about Ron? I can't even imagine that conversation it's so preposterous.

I don't necessarily believe Walsh sat down with Austin. But I do think something happened. I don't believe for a second Austin would express these opinions, if for no other reason than his respect for Walsh and Bird if something wasn't up.

Anthem
05-14-2005, 11:59 AM
You honestly believe Donnie Walsh sat down with Austin and asked him to go to the media on behalf of the Pacers and make a statement to the press that would be representative of how the team feels about Ron? I can't even imagine that conversation it's so preposterous.

I agree with that.

Putting on MY conspiracy hat for a minute, what possible purpose could there be behind Austin saying anything but "We love him and support him 100%" to the media? Assuming we want to trade him (I don't believe it, but hey), why would we want to say something that could drive his value down?

This doesn't have anything to do with the front office. Peck, you're paranoid.

EDIT: Great gravy, Peck, look what you made me go and do. I just agreed with Harmonica!

EDIT: And I'm still waiting for somebody to disagree with the point I made on Page 1.

indygeezer
05-14-2005, 12:20 PM
[/b]

This is, I think, the heart of what Croshere feels about Ron. I think it's absolutely fair, and some may say it's generous. But let me point out what it doesn't say. It doesn't say Croshere thinks Ron should be traded. It doesn't say anybody on the team does. It does say they want him to do really really well to balance all the things he screwed up (and he's done more than his share). If the guys on the team didn't want to play with Ron, it seems like we'd be hearing "Ron's made a lot of mistakes, and frankly guys are sick of dealing with them."

Ron can't atone for his mistakes by playing on another team.

I'd be happy to take issue with this Anthem. Well, some anyway. I DO think w can read it as Cro saying that he (they) are sick of it and would prefer not to deal with his actions again. Now, is that by trade or by corrective behavior modifications, I dunno. But I read it to mean they were tired of him. The fact that he turned it off and didn't listen would indicate they've heard it before..been there, done that...don't wanna do it again.

OTOH....I donot see any conspiracy or anything like that here. It is a snippet from an interview. Two maybe three lines lifted from a conversation. When he said the words he may have thought they were innocent enough and buried deep wthin a conversation. Or perhaps he felt that since it was a NY interview..what the heck would it hurt (the name Vanderjagt ring a bell??).
I once sat with a reporter for about 15 min. from that interview three lines were attributed to me. Of the three lines, two actually came from somebody else and changed the whole tenor of my conversation. But they were still mistakenly attributed to me. Another time a friend was interviewed by TV-8 News. THey didn't like her response to a specific question so they asked the question in different ways several more times until they got the response they could use. That story led off with..."Indianapolis residents are upset with..." when in fact she supported what the story alluded to.
With the press, you never know.

Unclebuck
05-14-2005, 12:22 PM
To me, it's quite obvious the NBA doesn't give a **** about its fans. If they gave a **** about the fans, the games wouldn't start at 6:00, did anyone else notice how empty the place was at the start of the game? I had to bust *** just to get there on time. And if they cared about the fans, 45 dollars would get you more than a Section 225 seat.



AS far as the time of the game. I disagree with you. The other game last night was at Dallas. Dallas is on the same time as we are. So unless you want the games played at the same time (which would hurt the fans who want to watch both) what time do you propose they start the game here in Indy.

7:00 PM, and then what start the game in Dallas at about 9:45.

Next season their won't be any 6:00 PM games (assuming daylight savings time puts us on eastern time)

indygeezer
05-14-2005, 12:34 PM
AS far as the time of the game. I disagree with you. The other game last night was at Dallas. Dallas is on the same time as we are. So unless you want the games played at the same time (which would hurt the fans who want to watch both) what time do you propose they start the game here in Indy.

7:00 PM, and then what start the game in Dallas at about 9:45.

Next season their won't be any 6:00 PM games (assuming daylight savings time puts us on eastern time)


Nah, I'm hopin' for Chicago time just to frustrate Mitch and the others. :devil: (but that's for another thread)

FiestyFosterFanatic
05-14-2005, 12:38 PM
AS far as the time of the game. I disagree with you. The other game last night was at Dallas. Dallas is on the same time as we are. So unless you want the games played at the same time (which would hurt the fans who want to watch both) what time do you propose they start the game here in Indy.

7:00 PM, and then what start the game in Dallas at about 9:45.

Next season their won't be any 6:00 PM games (assuming daylight savings time puts us on eastern time)

Give me a break. You and I both know that the NBA doesn't want to put the games on at the same time, not for fans who want to see both...but for the almighty dollar. They are wanting to get ratings for both games. If that was the case, during the season games wouldn't be going on at the same time, so people with League Pass could catch all the games.

grace
05-14-2005, 12:45 PM
Give me a break. You and I both know that the NBA doesn't want to put the games on at the same time, not for fans who want to see both...but for the almighty dollar. They are wanting to get ratings for both games. If that was the case, during the season games wouldn't be going on at the same time, so people with League Pass could catch all the games.

A business that actually wants to make money:eek:

Would you rather have our game start at 9:30? I wouldn't. Would you rather them only have on one game a night? I wouldn't.

FiestyFosterFanatic
05-14-2005, 12:49 PM
No. I would rather have the game start at 7:00. I don't care about the other games.

Anthem
05-14-2005, 01:06 PM
No. I would rather have the game start at 7:00. I don't care about the other games.

And next year it will, because Indy will be on a time schedule that jives with the rest of America.

I'd rather see it go the other way, but whatever.

Tim
05-14-2005, 01:44 PM
To me, it's quite obvious the NBA doesn't give a **** about its fans. If they gave a **** about the fans, the games wouldn't start at 6:00, did anyone else notice how empty the place was at the start of the game? I had to bust *** just to get there on time. And if they cared about the fans, 45 dollars would get you more than a Section 225 seat.

The NBA cares about the fans but they are a business. The networks are paying a great deal of money to carry the NBA, they do get a say in broadcast time/game starts.

The NBA/networks really need to bump the time back though, I think most people who watch the games on TV will stay up that extra hour to catch the west coast game on TV.

able
05-15-2005, 06:41 PM
Ok, this thread is way to funny.

I get back from a vacation, and sure enough I see a Artest thread.

and I still dont see why any of you bother arguing with Able. He is Ron Artest's personal lawyer/player agent. Its a waste of time to argue with him.

You were better of on vacation, you come back the Pacers lose and you start making stupid remarks.

Make sure the brain's activated before you do anything form here on in.

Hicks
05-15-2005, 07:03 PM
Both of you just made very dumb comments. Those posts are NOT what PD is about.

able
05-15-2005, 07:04 PM
Not only do you misquote me, nor do you do justice to your reading comprehension as well as your argumentative prowess.

As for the remainder of your post; I don't use admin powers here, so don't worry, others however do, that might make it more worrysome.

Your comments are simply out of line

Hicks
05-15-2005, 07:14 PM
Cooler heads have to prevail here.

va, check your PMs.