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RWB
04-17-2005, 12:41 PM
Thought some might be interested in this article from the Cleveland Plain Dealer.http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/bill_livingston/index.ssf?/base/sports/1113730210252490.xml

Hicks
04-17-2005, 01:01 PM
'Larry Blameless'. I'll have to remember that. That attitude has permeated down to his players and their fans as well.

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:04 PM
Typo in the second paragraph. What do you think they pay newspaper editors these days?

This is great, though:

This is about America's Coach, a man hailed for creating the ultimate example of a team, who yet put the greatest measure of value on his own reputation.

Brown would never have been able to hold the Pacers together. He would have poisoned the locker room when times got tough. It's always all about him.

Unclebuck
04-17-2005, 01:17 PM
I certainly don't agree with that guys point oif view and using the Olympic team as a basis to criticize LB seems a bit unfair. I'll tell you thiis if Brown was coaching the Cavs this season they would be a much better team

Harmonica
04-17-2005, 01:19 PM
Pretty shabbily written article, although I agree with the gist of it. The Pistons weren't going anywhere until they added Sheed. All Brown basically had to do was what Clinton did with the economy in the 90s when the technology/internet tsunami hitónot get in the way.

Unclebuck
04-17-2005, 01:24 PM
Pretty shabbily written article, although I agree with the gist of it. The Pistons weren't going anywhere until they added Sheed. All Brown basically had to do was what Clinton did with the economy in the 90s when the technology/internet tsunami hitónot get in the way.


That is just crazy. Brown is a great coach, say what you want about him, but he is a great coach.

Reggie calls him his best coach he's ever had.

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:32 PM
My letter to Bill:

Bill -

Your Larry Brown article was right on the money. I just wanted to throw a couple more ideas by you. Disclaimer: I'm a Pacer fan living in Las Vegas. I loved Larry the first couple of years he coached here, but quickly soured on him during his last year before leaving for Philly.

First, Larry's "Blameless" attitude has infected the entire Pistons team and organization. I'm not one that thinks Artest was even remotely justified in entering the stands. But if you watch the tape, the situation was already out of hand before that happened. Ben Wallace hit Artest (who didn't retaliate) and kept demonstrating on the court, but the refs didn't throw him out. Ben was the first to throw things at Artest, and the crowd followed suit.

But after the game, while the Pacers were refusing to comment, Ben (whose brother was inciting the crowd from the moment Ben hit Ron) and Rasheed Wallace (who was, once upon a time, more of an embarrassment to the league the Ron ever was) were sanctimoniously holding court in front of dozens of reporters. They talked about what a terrible person Ron was by instigating the crowd to throw the cup at him. Larry and the owner of the Pistons also chimed in.

The league couldn't suspend the fans. But they could have punished the Pistons for having security that was criminally lax. The Pistons said the security was fine, and the league agreed. But where was it? There was no security in the building for the first 3 or 4 minutes of the brawl. They were walking people out to their cars because the game was essentially over.

But nothing sticks to the Pistons, not this year. Larry Blameless has ended up leading the Blameless Pistons. The only bad people in the entire incident were the Pacers. And so Ron is out for the year and the playoffs (after a wink-wink agreement, the Commish changed his mind), and Reggie's final NBA year is tainted, and he won't get his last finals run.

I'm not saying Ron is blameless, but I don't think the Pistons are either.

---

Now, here's the real reason I wrote this email: you have a typo in the second paragraph of the online version of your article. It's embarrassing. If your spell checker doesn't have "Amare" in the dictionary, then put it in. That's basic proofreading; I don't know who your editor is but they should have caught it.

Other than that, great article.

Micah
Las Vegas, Nevada

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:34 PM
I certainly don't agree with that guys point oif view and using the Olympic team as a basis to criticize LB seems a bit unfair. I'll tell you thiis if Brown was coaching the Cavs this season they would be a much better team

Sure they would, but that's not the question. No question he's the second best X-and-O guy in the business (behind Carlisle).

The question is how does Brown escape responsibility of anything bad but get it for everything good?

Harmonica
04-18-2005, 11:00 AM
That is just crazy. Brown is a great coach, say what you want about him, but he is a great coach.

Didn't say he wasn't.

DisplacedKnick
04-18-2005, 11:22 AM
Sure they would, but that's not the question. No question he's the second best X-and-O guy in the business (behind Carlisle).

The question is how does Brown escape responsibility of anything bad but get it for everything good?

I'd actually argue with you Anthem. I think there are a ton of coaches out there - almost all of them actually, who are very good at the X's and O's. I think where LB, Carlisle and a few others stand out is getting the team to totally buy into their system 100% and sacrifice their own play for the good of the team.

More motivation, but that's not exactly it - maybe motivated discipline? Something anyway, but they have it and a lot of coaches don't.

Bball
04-18-2005, 12:11 PM
(who was, once upon a time, more of an embarrassment to the league the Ron ever was)
:hmm:


Now, here's the real reason I wrote this email: you have a typo in the second paragraph of the online version of your article. It's embarrassing. If your spell checker doesn't have "Amare" in the dictionary, then put it in. That's basic proofreading; I don't know who your editor is but they should have caught it.

:rolleyes: :shakehead: :wave:

-Bball :zip:

Harmonica
04-18-2005, 01:07 PM
I loved Larry the first couple of years he coached here, but quickly soured on him during his last year before leaving for Philly.

Dear Anthem,

Your sentence construction in the first paragraph of your letter to Bill is a bit sloppy. Who left for Philly? You or Larry? Of course, a Pacer fan will know who you're talking about, but the average reader might read that as you soured on Larry before you left for Philly. I don't know who your editor is but they should have caught it.

Other than that, good letter. ;-)

Harmonica

Anthem
04-18-2005, 01:48 PM
:laugh: Well, I don't have to read my OWN writing!

Funny, he never wrote back. :D

Yet more proof that every writer needs an editor, even when the writer IS an editor. It also proves I never read what I write, which is why I try to never comment on posts here on the board. It's realtime... part of the value is in the spontaneity. The letter also shows why I should never write anything after midnight... I get snippy.

So Bill, if you're reading, I'm sorry. I was wrong and I apologize.

How many times have you heard THAT on PacersDigest?

Kstat
04-18-2005, 01:54 PM
My letter to Bill:


You should have finished it, signed, a Pacers fan. It would have put things in perspective...

Larry has a lot of faults, but this article was so over the top I don't even know where to begin.

Rick hasn't been any less blameless than Larry Brown, either. His team got punished, but he's deflected pretty much all the blame Detroit's way at every opportunity.

travmil
04-18-2005, 02:10 PM
Rick hasn't been any less blameless than Larry Brown, either. His team got punished, but he's deflected pretty much all the blame Detroit's way at every opportunity.

Rick has been nothing but professional towards the Pistons and their fans. Moreso than could or should be expected of anyone. In fact he's gone entirely out of his way to focus any and all attention towards teh future of the organization rather than commenting on the past. Show me one example of what you are talking about. I want links and quotes. I suspect that you won't find many, if any at all. You complain about homer glasses on this board. Remove yours first.

able
04-18-2005, 02:16 PM
Maybe we should make a thread for the homer posts of Kstat in the shoutbox as well, like toad's.

You are writing them more and more KStat, thus losing the attraction to read your posts, alas.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 02:17 PM
Rick has been nothing but professional towards the Pistons and their fans. Moreso than could or should be expected of anyone. In fact he's gone entirely out of his way to focus any and all attention towards teh future of the organization rather than commenting on the past. Show me one example of what you are talking about. I want links and quotes. I suspect that you won't find many, if any at all. You complain about homer glasses on this board. Remove yours first.


I'll start with the fact he whined and moaned about how 63-year old larry brown should have restrained his players, when rick himself didnt exactly get in between anybody either.

Carlisle plays the "us against the world" mentality better than any coach in the NBA. Everybody knows it. So don't act like Larry Brown is the only guy that ever deflects blame.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 02:17 PM
Maybe we should make a thread for the homer posts of Kstat in the shoutbox as well, like toad's.

You are writing them more and more KStat, thus losing the attraction to read your posts, alas.

Yes able, I agree. THis thread was TOTALLY homer-free until I posted.....

travmil
04-18-2005, 02:23 PM
I'll start with the fact he whined and moaned about how 63-year old larry brown should have restrained his players...

Not sure I recall Rick directing this comment at Larry himself, but I'd be more apt to believe it if I had a link to a story with this quote.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 02:25 PM
Not sure I recall Rick directing this comment at Larry himself, but I'd be more apt to believe it if I had a link to a story with this quote.

When I find the time to comb back issues of the detroit news over the last 4 months, I'll be happy to post the arcitle.

travmil
04-18-2005, 02:34 PM
When I find the time to comb back issues of the detroit news over the last 4 months, I'll be happy to post the arcitle.

I believe you're talking about this quote:

"I think Detroit is very understaffed security wise, having been there for two years," Carlisle said in a Nov. 20 statement to an NBA security official. "This whole thing could have been prevented but the Detroit coaching staff did not get involved."

Yeah boy, Rick sure took a swipe at Larry personally with that one.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 02:35 PM
I believe you're talking about this quote:

"I think Detroit is very understaffed security wise, having been there for two years," Carlisle said in a Nov. 20 statement to an NBA security official. "This whole thing could have been prevented but the Detroit coaching staff did not get involved."

Yeah boy, Rick sure took a swipe at Larry personally with that one.

.....and Carlisle did WHAT exactly to restrain his players?

Of course, im sure he meant everybody BUT larry brown.....im sure he wasnt referring to the HEAD COACH of the pistons....

I'll add on that he called palace security the worst in the NBA.

Funny how he was PROTECTED by that same security and didnt file one single complaint in 2 years....

in any case, this thread was more or less doomed from the start. I'm going to cut it short here. we can go back and forth for hours about the things carlisle has said at the top of his soapbox, as opposed to larry. No good can come from it.


Everyone quoted during that time was making similar statements aimed at either or both sides

Thats the point I was trying to make. Larry Brown was hardly the only one shifting blame after the brawl.

travmil
04-18-2005, 02:38 PM
.....and Carlisle did WHAT exactly to restrain his players?

Of course, im sure he meant everybody BUT larry brown.....im sure he wasnt referring to the HEAD COACH of the pistons....

So this is your one shining example or Rick "whining and moaning"? He made these comments the day after the brawl. Everyone quoted during that time was making similar statements aimed at either or both sides. If this is your only example, you're gonna have to go back to the drawing board.

Fool
04-18-2005, 02:52 PM
Maybe we should make a thread for the homer posts of Kstat in the shoutbox as well, like toad's.

You are writing them more and more KStat, thus losing the attraction to read your posts, alas.

Able, maybe you should put this in your sig so you don't have to type it so often.

Also, can we get a sticky for topics on the brawl as it seems even after all this time its still needed. After which, of course, someone would need to slap this thread into it.

Anthem,

Confucius says, "Spelling corrections should always be offered verbally."

Anthem
04-18-2005, 03:00 PM
You should have finished it, signed, a Pacers fan. It would have put things in perspective...

First paragraph...

Los Angeles
04-18-2005, 03:17 PM
.....and Carlisle did WHAT exactly to restrain his players?


From Getty Images:

AUBURN HILLS, MI - NOVEMBER 19: Ben Wallace #3 of the Detroit Pistons and teammates are kept apart from Ron Artest #91 of the Indiana Pacers by Pacers head coach Rick Carlisle and official Tommy Nunez Jr. on November 19, 2004 during their game at the Palace of Auburn Hills in Auburn Hills, Michigan. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Copyright 2004 NBAE (Photo by Allen Einstein/NBAE via Getty Images)

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/21/wallace_wideweb__430x326.jpg

ChicagoJ
04-18-2005, 03:23 PM
From Getty Images:

AUBURN HILLS, MI - NOVEMBER 19: Ben Wallace #3 of the Detroit Pistons and teammates are kept apart from Ron Artest #91 of the Indiana Pacers by Pacers head coach Rick Carlisle and official Tommy Nunez Jr. on November 19, 2004 during their game at the Palace of Auburn Hills in Auburn Hills, Michigan. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Copyright 2004 NBAE (Photo by Allen Einstein/NBAE via Getty Images)


I was going to try to find that photo... thanks LA!! :chuckle:

Mourning
04-18-2005, 03:40 PM
Obviously, what he's doing there is being restrained by the officials from attacking Larry Brown...

Clearly! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ;)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
04-18-2005, 03:52 PM
.....and Carlisle did WHAT exactly to restrain his players?


http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/21/wallace_wideweb__430x326.jpg

Swing and a miss.

The legacy continues.

Harmonica
04-18-2005, 04:14 PM
And Kstat was never heard from again...

;-)

(I really don't know how to use the smilies on this new forum)

Los Angeles
04-18-2005, 04:17 PM
I'm an equal opportunity kind of guy:

That's obviously Larry Brown doing nothing but picking his teeth, bum hip and all.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 04:19 PM
I owe you a cookie, LA.

YOu can have the one that BTown owes me.

Los Angeles
04-18-2005, 04:25 PM
I owe you a cookie, LA.

YOu can have the one that BTown owes me.
Offer gladly accepted, only I get my own cookie (no offense, btown :) )

BigMac
04-18-2005, 04:45 PM
I look at these pictures and I see Rick Carlisle trying to keep order but for some reason, I don't see Larry (TLB-the little *****) Brown doing anything nor even in the picture. Do research before mouthing off, huh?

Los Angeles
04-18-2005, 04:47 PM
We've already covered this:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10997

Maybe this thread should be folded into the other one?

Kstat
04-18-2005, 04:51 PM
I don't see Larry (TLB-the little *****) Brown doing anything

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=145&stc=1

a swing and a miss.

And the legacy continues........

do some research before mouthing off, huh?

Indyfan
04-18-2005, 04:54 PM
The article was harsh but I think for the most part it was right on. Larry does deflect blame and he did set himself up to be blameless during the olympics last year. Rick did get dumped on by the Detroit organization, big time! He was the first of what has become many successful coaches being fired when they are succeeding. It was shocking and what was worse the Detroit Org. sent out a bunch of rumours and a smear campaign against Rick to justify what they did firing him, Rick has taken the high road every step of the way.

Rick's one quote taken just after the brawl shouldn't be held up as the standard for him since it was a first reaction and he hasn't harped on it since. Even when they went back in March and had the bomb threats, Rick defended the Detroit Org. and the Detroit fans.

Larry does call out his players publically, he does whine when things get rough, he does blame everyone but himself most of the time. That is well documented over his long career. I don't think he could have held our team together this year with everything that has happened, then again I'm not sure how many coaches could have, and I am amazed at how great a job Rick has done. I think all of the criticism coming out of Detroit about Rick has been proved wrong in our case.

Rick isn't perfect and there will always be the day after coaches who wonder why he did this or that in a game; but he has proven to be flexible, he has used the young players, he has been a class act toward the players, fans and org. He is prob. the best coach in the NBA at this time and he is still getting better. I don't know how his resume will compare with Larry Brown after 20 years, but it certainly has been excellent in his first 4 years and I am very happy we have him here.

BigMac
04-18-2005, 04:56 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=145&stc=1

a swing and a miss.

And the legacy continues........

do some research before mouthing off, huh?

What is he doing there? He's trying to restore order or being pushed by one of his own players?

He's behind everyone so he's obviously trying to keep order. I will give him this, he just had hip surgery (that didn't go well) but I cannot stand LB because he is a quitter and ruined an entire season here. But he wasn't trying to restore order there, in fact, his inability and reactions to everything, along with Ben Wallace's, helped create the situation, in my opinion. But he's not helping there in your pix behind everyone.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 04:59 PM
What is he doing there? He's trying to restore order or being pushed by one of his own players?

He's behind everyone so he's obviously trying to keep order. I will give him this, he just had hip surgery (that didn't go well) but I cannot stand LB because he is a quitter and ruined an entire season here. But he wasn't trying to restore order there, in fact, his inability and reactions to everything, along with Ben Wallace's, helped create the situation, in my opinion. But he's not helping there in your pix behind everyone.

He's doing pretty well for an old man that just had his entire hip replaced, and shouldnt even be walking.....

a swing and a miss. again.

Since86
04-18-2005, 05:00 PM
What is he doing there? He's trying to restore order or being pushed by one of his own players?

He's behind everyone so he's obviously trying to keep order. I will give him this, he just had hip surgery (that didn't go well) but I cannot stand LB because he is a quitter and ruined an entire season here. But he wasn't trying to restore order there, in fact, his inability and reactions to everything, along with Ben Wallace's, helped create the situation, in my opinion. But he's not helping there in your pix behind everyone.

Can I have your entire opinion on the fight? For some reason I dont think it's been discussed enough around here. :rolleyes:

Let's just move along.

Kstat
04-18-2005, 05:02 PM
Can I have your entire opinion on the fight? For some reason I dont think it's been discussed enough around here. :rolleyes:

Let's just move along.

I'm still wondering why there hasn't been a separate forum or thread for all brawl-related topics, so I dont have people dragging me into these.....

then again, if there was, we'd never see BigMac here again, since he can't breathe without posting about me or the brawl.

Hicks
04-18-2005, 05:03 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=145&stc=1

a swing and a miss.

And the legacy continues........

do some research before mouthing off, huh?

At least say something original.

Natston
04-18-2005, 05:05 PM
so I dont have people dragging me into these.....

Because no one has any sympathy for you... :rolleyes:





















:flirt:

Since86
04-18-2005, 05:08 PM
then again, if there was, we'd never see BigMac here again, since he can't breathe without posting about me or the brawl.

:confused: Is that a bad thing?

Kstat
04-18-2005, 05:10 PM
:confused: Is that a bad thing?

I dunno, I already had him pegged as a closet Pistons fan, since everything he posts on has the words "pistons" or "Kstat" in them.....

Its just like back in 4th grade, where the more you deinied you liked that girl in the desk in front of you, the more it looked like you actually did, because you couldnt stop talking about her?

I think he actually wears a Ben Wallace jersey when he posts.

Since86
04-18-2005, 05:10 PM
I dunno, I already had him pegged as a closet Pistons fan, since everything he posts on has the words "pistons" or "Kstat" in them.....

I just have him pegged as bitter.....

Kstat
04-18-2005, 05:12 PM
I just have him pegged as bitter.....


.....or that.

BigMac
04-18-2005, 08:26 PM
1. Brawls threads are getting old

2. Kstat, I think its funny how you are quick to play the "homer" card, yet you are called out pretty hard in this thread.

3. Im so tired of hearing about 11/19. I really think we should just put all threads about that game in some other forum, namely The Shout Box

I concur on all three. I apologize for bringing it up. Still a very sore spot for me. KStat-welcome to my ignore feature. Please return the favor. Thanks.

Hoop
04-18-2005, 10:01 PM
Brown would never have been able to hold the Pacers together. He would have poisoned the locker room when times got tough. It's always all about him.
I agree with the guy on this statement. Larry Brown's last year as Pacer coach he packed it in and gave up on the team after the team was hit hard with injuries and ended up not making the playoffs.

Brown later admitted it, saying he quit on the team and said it was his worse coaching job.

The next season Bird and Carlisle took the same basic team to a franchise best record and the eastern conference finals.