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View Full Version : Pacermania creeping into Ball State



Hicks
04-15-2005, 12:23 PM
I'm sitting here in our Atrium having lunch, and on my way here and as I sit here looking around, I'm seeing more and more Pacers shirts, hats, ties-- a lot more than I have ever seen here (used to be hardly anyone). I've noticed this around campus for days now.

People love this team a lot more than they loved the JO/Artest team. Maybe it's the nostalgia of it being led by Reggie and Dale again, but whatever it is, it's caused a change in this state. It's like the Pacers are suddenly "hip" again after a 5 years hiatus.

Unclebuck
04-15-2005, 12:24 PM
I'll be interested to see how playoff tickets are selling

Anyone go down to Conseco today

Diamond Dave
04-15-2005, 12:38 PM
I have expirienced the same thing at U of Indy. More and more people are wearing Pacers apparell as well as discussing the Pacers. Also all my friends from high school who seemed to lose interest in the Pacers (only catching a few minutes of few games) are now back to following religiously.

Pacer Pride, Pacer Pride, The Pride of Indiana is Pacer Pride!

Unclebuck
04-15-2005, 12:42 PM
Just a note: it is not unusual for the Pacers to become "the most important sports story" in central Indiana at this time of the year. At almost every other time of thr season there is something "more important" going on

This is the only time when there is no Colts, IU, Purdue, ND football or basketball, and the Indy 500 is not in the news yet. S So I don't know if this year is any different from any other year.

Hicks
04-15-2005, 12:44 PM
Just a note: it is not unusual for the Pacers to become "the most important sports story" in central Indiana at this time of the year. At almost every other time of thr season there is something "more important" going on

This is the only time when there is no Colts, IU, Purdue, ND football or basketball, and the Indy 500 is not in the news yet. S So I don't know if this year is any different from any other year.

That might be true of the media around here, but I've not seen the PEOPLE around here act like this in 5 years.

Anthem
04-15-2005, 12:47 PM
People love this team a lot more than they loved the JO/Artest team.

People love a winner. They really love a team that fights back when it gets stuck by "the man." They also really love a team that's fun to watch.

If we keep a similar offense next year and win a lot of games, I don't think the team will be any less popular.

Diamond Dave
04-15-2005, 12:54 PM
Plus this team has an attitude. The right attitude. Not the fake toughness and bravado we've seen in past years. No one likes to see JO whine to the ref after every play, no one wants to see Artest go crazy, no likes to see Bender. Why do you think that even though Austin has a horrendous salary (not as bad as bender's) he still gets more applause then anyone else who comes off the bench. Austin does not bring any immature/childish baggage. This team is tough physically and mentally, and they no that no one can beat them in those two aspects.

Doug
04-15-2005, 01:07 PM
I'll be interested to see how playoff tickets are selling

I know whoever has the other 1/2 of my 1/2 season package didn't get playoff tickets because I'm in my normal seats for all playoff games.

ChicagoJ
04-15-2005, 01:16 PM
I know whoever has the other 1/2 of my 1/2 season package didn't get playoff tickets because I'm in my normal seats for all playoff games.

I think they've gone back to the priority number system - "old timers" like us ;) keep our seats for all the games, and the johnny-come-latelies move to a different seat for all the games.

Doug
04-15-2005, 01:20 PM
I think they've gone back to the priority number system - "old timers" like us ;) keep our seats for all the games, and the johnny-come-latelies move to a different seat for all the games.

Ok. Last year I rotated. Well, actually last year there was some confusion with my renewal and I ended up in different seats for both halves.

Well, at least I'm an old timer now. Hopefully that makes it more likely that I'll get to move down a couple of rows next year.

SoupIsGood
04-15-2005, 01:25 PM
You guys got all the other reasons, but I think Reggie flashing back to the Reggie of old, and carrying the team, is probably the main reason they are popular again.

ABADays
04-15-2005, 01:51 PM
It's also T-shirt weather . . . have most of them been t-shirts? :devil:

ChicagoJ
04-15-2005, 01:51 PM
Ok. Last year I rotated. Well, actually last year there was some confusion with my renewal and I ended up in different seats for both halves.

Well, at least I'm an old timer now. Hopefully that makes it more likely that I'll get to move down a couple of rows next year.

I haven't rotated since the first year in CFH. :shrug:

Although, I guess I can't say that for sure... I didn't look at my tickets before I shipped them to my buddy back home in Indy. I'm supposed to be driving through Iowa right now, but our packing was interrupted last night when Jay's_Daughter@Section204 woke up, vomitted on her pillow, and then tried to lay back down and go to sleep. For the record, I'm blaming MR's son for the germs. :D

Peck
04-15-2005, 02:54 PM
I think there is something to this.

Do any of you remember my posts over the past 5 seasons about whether or not this team had been accepted by the locals?

I've thought for years now that the locals don't feel the same way about the current team that they did about the old team.

Ron Artest is insanely popular on the internet. Jermaine O'Neal is wildly popular amongst the younger fans.

But to be honest, I just have never felt like the local fan base thought the same of them that they did of those late 90's teams. I caveat all of that by saying that I am aware of my personnal feelings about both teams so therefor I have always been aware that my own thoughts might be betraying me.

But I know that where I used to sit the fans just did not care for some of the attitudes that some of you have no problems with.

Unclebuck
04-15-2005, 03:01 PM
Peck, I remember those posts very well.

So many things I could argue about, but I can't for fear someone will think I don't like this current team or don't appreciate what they have accomplished. So let me say I enjoy this current team and hope they go far in the playoffs.

Anthem
04-15-2005, 04:04 PM
But to be honest, I just have never felt like the local fan base thought the same of them that they did of those late 90's teams...

But I know that where I used to sit the fans just did not care for some of the attitudes that some of you have no problems with.

Peck, those are two different things.

I have a problem with the team's desire to yap at the refs. I wish Jermaine, Ron, Jack, Tins, and Reggie would shut up and play the game. I doubt you and I differ on "attitudes."

I think a lot of it has to do with winning. Indiana fans got used to a high level of play, and then didn't get it for a while. Last year, we made great progress. But we'd made great progress before, and everybody was waiting for the other shoe to drop. We breezed through the first two rounds, then lost the ECFs in a battle.

People want to see their team win a battle. They're seeing that now for the first time since 2000.

Suaveness
04-15-2005, 04:10 PM
We LOVE overacheivers

Unclebuck
04-15-2005, 04:32 PM
People want to see their team win a battle. They're seeing that now for the first time since 2000.

I must not understand what you are saying here. Last years team won 71 battles. So maybe you're right because I enjoyed it.

OK, let me ask a question. Who here is looking forward to the playoffs more right now than they were last year at this time

Unclebuck
04-15-2005, 04:33 PM
Oops

ChicagoJ
04-15-2005, 04:34 PM
I'd say last year's team was 1-1 in battles, because Boston in the first round was an absolute joke.

Los Angeles
04-15-2005, 04:39 PM
Who here is looking forward to the playoffs more right now than they were last year at this time
Me.

Last year I was excited about winning, but felt like I was kind of on auto-pilot as a fan, sitting back and enjoying without getting overly emotional.

This year I have this sort of energy, call it a "feeling" that has me on the edge of my seat.

I'm definitely looking forward to the playoffs more right now than I did this time last year.

Suaveness
04-15-2005, 04:48 PM
I must not understand what you are saying here. Last years team won 71 battles. So maybe you're right because I enjoyed it.

OK, let me ask a question. Who here is looking forward to the playoffs more right now than they were last year at this time

I'm not. I get excited when I know our team out there is better than the other team, and we have a legitimate shot of winning because of our best players. This is fun to watch, and exciting, but I would MUCH rather have last year's team.

FiestyFosterFanatic
04-15-2005, 05:52 PM
I'm sitting here in our Atrium having lunch, and on my way here and as I sit here looking around, I'm seeing more and more Pacers shirts, hats, ties-- a lot more than I have ever seen here (used to be hardly anyone). I've noticed this around campus for days now.

People love this team a lot more than they loved the JO/Artest team. Maybe it's the nostalgia of it being led by Reggie and Dale again, but whatever it is, it's caused a change in this state. It's like the Pacers are suddenly "hip" again after a 5 years hiatus.

Yeah, I noticed that alot the lack of Pacer support up there last semester and last year. I was one of the few rockin a Pacer hat every day in support during the entire season last year, and the first semester this year. So is the support now kinda like the Cubs support last year when they made their run? Cubs **** was all over the place.

sixthman
04-15-2005, 06:55 PM
I know whoever has the other 1/2 of my 1/2 season package didn't get playoff tickets because I'm in my normal seats for all playoff games.

Me, too. :buddies:

Harmonica
04-15-2005, 07:09 PM
You guys got all the other reasons, but I think Reggie flashing back to the Reggie of old, and carrying the team, is probably the main reason they are popular again.

Good point.

Eindar
04-15-2005, 07:21 PM
Indiana <3 Underdogs


'Nuff said.

Anthem
04-15-2005, 08:06 PM
I must not understand what you are saying here. Last years team won 71 battles. So maybe you're right because I enjoyed it.

I'm just saying that the average fan had three straight years of teams crapping out in the playoffs after a promising regular season run. And the postseason wasn't like a "classic" Pacers postseason. Boston barely showed up, and Miami got too far in the hole early for the series to be in doubt. Most fans were on autopilot until the Pistons series was over.

I loved last year as well, but I'm just saying people weren't necessarily ready to believe.

Here's a thought... as much as we think of roles being important for the players, how much are roles important for the average fan? I think I may be onto something here... I'll ponder some more and start a new thread after it has percolated.

EDIT: I just watched Rick on PTI (other thread) and he talked about attendance a little bit. Good interview by Rick.

Hicks
04-15-2005, 10:49 PM
I'm just saying that the average fan had three straight years of teams crapping out in the playoffs after a promising regular season run.

Let's not exhaggerate that. They had ONE year of crapping out in the playoffs after a promising regular season run, and even that one wasn't exactly promising from start to finish. 00-01 and 01-02 were two .500 teams that lost as 8th seeds. That's not nearly what you said.


Miami got too far in the hole early for the series to be in doubt.

A whopping 0-2. When they were a bad road team but a great home team. Who'da thunk it.



I loved last year as well, but I'm just saying people weren't necessarily ready to believe.

This is true, but I believe it's because the new team doesn't carry the excitement level Reggie's teams did.

FiestyFosterFanatic
04-15-2005, 10:57 PM
I think alot of the fans lost touch with the team when we drafted a bunch of high schoolers, and traded away the favorites (Mark Jackson, Davis Brothers, Rik retired). Then we got a new coach that nobody really liked, Isiah Thomas, and the new team cried over everything all the time. That's one of the main reasons I hated the team. They cried over every single foul call. Last year the team finally grew up, mainly because of the new coach who many people thought should have been the coach all along.

PacerMan
04-16-2005, 01:02 AM
I'm sitting here in our Atrium having lunch, and on my way here and as I sit here looking around, I'm seeing more and more Pacers shirts, hats, ties-- a lot more than I have ever seen here (used to be hardly anyone). I've noticed this around campus for days now.

People love this team a lot more than they loved the JO/Artest team. Maybe it's the nostalgia of it being led by Reggie and Dale again, but whatever it is, it's caused a change in this state. It's like the Pacers are suddenly "hip" again after a 5 years hiatus.

Indiana fans are forever being touted as among or THE most knowledgable hoops fans. WHile I don't know if it's accurate, I know I've always enjoyed the praise. :)
Why WOULDN"T we be stoked about seeing a bunch of less talented guys work their butts off playing team basketball and beating more talented teams while doing it?
There's no mystery.

PacerMan
04-16-2005, 01:03 AM
Plus this team has an attitude. The right attitude. Not the fake toughness and bravado we've seen in past years. No one likes to see JO whine to the ref after every play, no one wants to see Artest go crazy, no likes to see Bender. Why do you think that even though Austin has a horrendous salary (not as bad as bender's) he still gets more applause then anyone else who comes off the bench. Austin does not bring any immature/childish baggage. This team is tough physically and mentally, and they no that no one can beat them in those two aspects.

Excellent points. Except about Bender. I like to see Bender.

SoupIsGood
04-16-2005, 01:05 AM
Indiana fans are forever being touted as among or THE most knowledgable hoops fans. WHile I don't know if it's accurate, I know I've always enjoyed the praise. :)
Why WOULDN"T we be stoked about seeing a bunch of less talented guys work their butts off playing team basketball and beating more talented teams while doing it?
There's no mystery.

I've been paying attention
to your post a lot more lately,
because you have some interesting
opinions. But it never ceases to amaze
me that your posts seem to take on this
general formal, or at least recently.
Stange, huh?



Oh, yeah: =/

Will Galen
04-16-2005, 06:29 AM
But I know that where I used to sit the fans just did not care for some of the attitudes that some of you have no problems with.

Being 61, I've rooted for a lot of different teams in my life. I don't like it when the team I'm rooting for gets preferential treatment. I don't mean the refs missing a couple calls. I mean when it looks like the refs are doing their best to help my team win. It waters down my enthusiasm.

I feel the same way when players on my chosen team act up. Again it waters down my enthusiasm, sometimes to the point that I don't care whether my team wins or loses.

Which brings up the question, when are people wildly enthusiastic? Hardly ever for front runners. Remember Seabiscuit? That little horse had all kinds of trouble and was loved by this nation. People love an underdog with heart!

What stands your hair on end and causes your heart to trip hammering? Inspired effort! A hard charging closer!

Going back to horse racing as an example, what brings the crowd to it's collective feet?

Announcer; ". . . as they enter the home stretch, Phoenix is leading San Antonio by a nose while Miami is but half a length back . . . Detroit is fourth followed by a slowing Seattle . . . HERE COME THE PACERS, HERE COME THE PACERS gaining ground at a terrific pace the Pacers are coming to the front. They've passed Boston, Washington, Chicago, and they just blew by Seattle, and are quickly closing on the leaders. At the quarter pole it's Phoenix and San Antonio neck and neck. The Pacer's have passed Miami and Detroit and are making it a three horse race. Phoenix is fading and it's San Antonio and the Pacers down to the wire, neck and neck, stride for stride, and the winner is the Pacers by a nose!"

PacerMan
04-16-2005, 02:06 PM
I've been paying attention
to your post a lot more lately,
because you have some interesting
opinions. But it never ceases to amaze
me that your posts seem to take on this
general formal, or at least recently.
Stange, huh?



Oh, yeah: =/

Not understanding "general formal"? (format?) ---

SoupIsGood
04-16-2005, 02:10 PM
Not understanding "general formal"? (format?) ---

Oops.

Yeah, I meant format.

I just, about last week or so, one of your posts really caught my attention, and I've been making a point of reading your posts since. But, I just thought it was interesting how so many of them look like they are scared of the right margin. Or, maybe I'm just a lunatic. :shrug:

Anthem
04-16-2005, 04:12 PM
But, I just thought it was interesting how so many of them look like they are scared of the right margin. Or, maybe I'm just a lunatic. :shrug:

I thought it might be
A poor attempt at free verse.
Way too many props.

I'm disappointed.
I sat here wasting my time
Counting syllables.

This is a shout out
To the poetic-minded.
Carry on this trend!

At the very least
It gets our minds off the loss
It's something to do.

:laugh:

Eindar
04-17-2005, 05:48 AM
Haiku 4tw!

Doug
04-17-2005, 11:06 AM
I went through a phase
On the "other" forum.
Only post Haiku.

But I soon found out
To get second line right
Just took too much time.


:-)

Southside_Pacer
04-17-2005, 11:21 AM
I think alot of the fans lost touch with the team when we drafted a bunch of high schoolers, and traded away the favorites (Mark Jackson, Davis Brothers, Rik retired). Then we got a new coach that nobody really liked, Isiah Thomas, and the new team cried over everything all the time. That's one of the main reasons I hated the team. They cried over every single foul call. Last year the team finally grew up, mainly because of the new coach who many people thought should have been the coach all along.

Another reason why I think fans loved these Pacers' teams in the 90s with Reg, DD, MJ, RS, DM, AD, etc, was that these teams were the ones that finally put the NBA Pacers on the map for the first time. It was easy to get behind these guys since they were the ones taking on those "evil" Knicks.

This group had a clear cut rival in the playoffs, the Knicks, so it was very easy to get behind him since 99% of the people in Indy hate the New York Knicks.

This current team is starting to develop it's rivalry with the Pistons, and it's easier to see each day that people in Indy are starting to hate the Pistons. Potential playoff battles with Detroit will be the 90s Pacers' team Knicks.

Peck
04-17-2005, 11:30 AM
Another reason why I think fans loved these Pacers' teams in the 90s with Reg, DD, MJ, RS, DM, AD, etc, was that these teams were the ones that finally put the NBA Pacers on the map for the first time. It was easy to get behind these guys since they were the ones taking on those "evil" Knicks.

This group had a clear cut rival in the playoffs, the Knicks, so it was very easy to get behind him since 99% of the people in Indy hate the New York Knicks.

This current team is starting to develop it's rivalry with the Pistons, and it's easier to see each day that people in Indy are starting to hate the Pistons. Potential playoff battles with Detroit will be the 90s Pacers' team Knicks.

This is a very good point.

Arcadian
04-17-2005, 11:34 AM
I certainly am not as excited about this playoff run as I was last years. I'll be surprised if we make it out of the second round and don't even think there is a remote possiblity that we will make it to the finals.

I do appreciate what this team has done but I want to see my team compete for a championship not for a moral victory.

Bball
04-17-2005, 11:47 AM
Why was there a period of fan apathy?
....Because Reggie's team was broken up prematurely...

At least in my humble opinion.

-Bball

Anthem
04-17-2005, 12:24 PM
Why was there a period of fan apathy?
....Because Reggie's team was broken up prematurely...

Great gravy, man, if you're going to rule the dark side at least be consistent about it!

Your biggest complaint about Walsh is that he's not interested in winning it all... that he's only interested in putting fans in the seats over the regular season and making a decent playoff run every year. You say this ALL THE TIME.

If that was really Walsh's highest goal, then why the heck would he break up the team "prematurely?" That team could have continued to win a lot of regular-season games and would have made a nice run every year. But they never would have beaten the Lakers, and everybody knew it. So which is it? Is he too ready to chase a championship, or not enough?

And as a footnote, when your starting center retires and your starting point guard demands twice what he's worth, and for twice as long as he'll be able to play, you're going to have a hard time keeping the team together.

Anthem
04-17-2005, 12:27 PM
I went through a phase
On the "other" forum.
Only post Haiku.

But I soon found out
To get second line right
Just took too much time.

Sorry I missed that.
Ours is not truly haiku
But fun anyway.

Arcadian
04-17-2005, 01:02 PM
Great gravy, man, if you're going to rule the dark side at least be consistent about it!

Your biggest complaint about Walsh is that he's not interested in winning it all... that he's only interested in putting fans in the seats over the regular season and making a decent playoff run every year. You say this ALL THE TIME.

If that was really Walsh's highest goal, then why the heck would he break up the team "prematurely?" That team could have continued to win a lot of regular-season games and would have made a nice run every year. But they never would have beaten the Lakers, and everybody knew it. So which is it? Is he too ready to chase a championship, or not enough?

And as a footnote, when your starting center retires and your starting point guard demands twice what he's worth, and for twice as long as he'll be able to play, you're going to have a hard time keeping the team together.

Yet more evidence that this is the wierdest Pacer season ever. Now the camp which held the belief that Donnie was only into building a successful teams rather than a championship team are in love with a current squad who don't have a shot a the championship.

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:05 PM
Yet more evidence that this is the wierdest Pacer season ever. Now the camp which held the belief that Donnie was only into building a successful teams rather than a championship team are in love with a current squad who don't have a shot a the championship.

:laugh:

Bball
04-17-2005, 01:31 PM
Great gravy, man, if you're going to rule the dark side at least be consistent about it!

Your biggest complaint about Walsh is that he's not interested in winning it all... that he's only interested in putting fans in the seats over the regular season and making a decent playoff run every year. You say this ALL THE TIME.

If that was really Walsh's highest goal, then why the heck would he break up the team "prematurely?" That team could have continued to win a lot of regular-season games and would have made a nice run every year. But they never would have beaten the Lakers, and everybody knew it. So which is it? Is he too ready to chase a championship, or not enough?


I'm not convinced the team couldn't have beaten the Lakers. I'm sick of the Laker envy that has permeated the Pacer apologist camp as an excuse for 'breaking up', 'retooling', 'rebuilding on the fly' or whatever term some want to hang their hat on.

Altho I can never prove it, I don't believe the team was broken up because Donnie Walsh thought we'd never beat the Lakers.... the team was allowed to dissolve because he thought they'd ran their course in '99 when they lost in a fluke loss to the Knicks. Rather than tweak the team for the next season he chose to let them go their own ways (no new contracts) and begin rebuilding (probably already with Jalen as the planned centerpiece). A funny thing happened on the way to this though, the team went even farther in 2000 (The NBA Finals). So based on the team going as far as they ever had it somehow was deemed by some that they were out of gas and should bow to the mighty Lakers and 'allow' them their run in the spotlight.

Did last season not show anyone that the 'mighty' Lakers could be beaten, even with Shaq and Kobe? Is there any reason a veteran Pacer team, with Finals' savvy, maybe a tweak or two, couldn't have figured out the same thing(s)?

Let's take a look at how soundly the Lakers thrashed Indiana in 2000:

1
Wed., June 7
L.A. 104, Indiana 87

2
Fri., June 9
L.A. 111, Indiana 104

3
Sun., June 11
Indiana 100, L.A. 91

4
Wed., June 14
L.A. 120, Ind. 118 (OT)

5
Fri., June 16
Indiana 120, L.A. 87

6
Mon., June 19
L.A. 116, Indiana 111


Interesting that Indiana was a bucket away from taking a 3-2 lead back to LA... and that Indiana led large portions of that 6th game even though it was in LA. Hmmmm and Indiana owns the blowout game (winning by 33 points). ...Yet... LA was 'invincible'. So, all sarcasm aside, I don't see LA being the big bad monster some of you portrayed them to be. I suppose if you keep saying it enough you can convince yourself the Pacers did the right thing though.

Actually, of late I am a bit angry but I've bit my tongue. This return of Dale Davis, and Reggie's re-found aggressiveness, simply shows me how premature Walsh was to pull the plug. I'm calling a mistake a mistake. To me this whole episode validates how I felt all along.

And no, I don't want things both ways. Walsh didn't set the wheels in motion to break up the team and rebuild for a championship itself... he set the wheels in motion because he misjudged the end of the run. Badly. He misjudged the next phase of the Pacers as well (The Jalen Rose Pacers)... Let alone the Bender experiment.

And even if we couldn't have beaten the Lakers, I sure would've like to have seen the team trying instead of flaming out in the first round those following seasons.

-Bball

Bball
04-17-2005, 01:37 PM
Some of you so miss the point...

I don't think the internet fan base (which can be intense and sometimes blinded by the loyalties) is a very good barometer of the general public and casual fans.

Reggie is the face of the franchise and Reggie is leading the team again just like he was in the 90's-2000. And they are winning. That is why Hicks sees what he sees around the campus.

-Bball

SoupIsGood
04-17-2005, 01:39 PM
I'm not convinced the team couldn't have beaten the Lakers. I'm sick of the Laker envy that has permeated the Pacer apologist camp as an excuse for 'breaking up', 'retooling', 'rebuilding on the fly' or whatever term some want to hang their hat on.

Altho I can never prove it, I don't believe the team was broken up because Donnie Walsh thought we'd never beat the Lakers.... the team was allowed to dissolve because he thought they'd ran their course in '99 when they lost in a fluke loss to the Knicks. Rather than tweak the team for the next season he chose to let them go their own ways (no new contracts) and begin rebuilding (probably already with Jalen as the planned centerpiece). A funny thing happened on the way to this though, the team went even farther in 2000 (The NBA Finals). So based on the team going as far as they ever had it somehow was deemed by some that they were out of gas and should bow to the mighty Lakers and 'allow' them their run in the spotlight.

Did last season not show anyone that the 'mighty' Lakers could be beaten, even with Shaq and Kobe? Is there any reason a veteran Pacer team, with Finals' savvy, maybe a tweak or two, couldn't have figured out the same thing(s)?

Let's take a look at how soundly the Lakers thrashed Indiana in 2000:

1
Wed., June 7
L.A. 104, Indiana 87

2
Fri., June 9
L.A. 111, Indiana 104

3
Sun., June 11
Indiana 100, L.A. 91

4
Wed., June 14
L.A. 120, Ind. 118 (OT)

5
Fri., June 16
Indiana 120, L.A. 87

6
Mon., June 19
L.A. 116, Indiana 111


Interesting that Indiana was a bucket away from taking a 3-2 lead back to LA... and that Indiana led large portions of that 6th game even though it was in LA. Hmmmm and Indiana owns the blowout game (winning by 33 points). ...Yet... LA was 'invincible'. So, all sarcasm aside, I don't see LA being the big bad monster some of you portrayed them to be. I suppose if you keep saying it enough you can convince yourself the Pacers did the right thing though.

Actually, of late I am a bit angry but I've bit my tongue. This return of Dale Davis, and Reggie's re-found aggressiveness, simply shows me how premature Walsh was to pull the plug. I'm calling a mistake a mistake. To me this whole episode validates how I felt all along.

And no, I don't want things both ways. Walsh didn't set the wheels in motion to break up the team and rebuild for a championship itself... he set the wheels in motion because he misjudged the end of the run. Badly. He misjudged the next phase of the Pacers as well (The Jalen Rose Pacers)... Let alone the Bender experiment.

And even if we couldn't have beaten the Lakers, I sure would've like to have seen the team trying instead of flaming out in the first round those following seasons.

-Bball

It is odd how you could say all that, yet still not address this:


And as a footnote, when your starting center retires and your starting point guard demands twice what he's worth, and for twice as long as he'll be able to play, you're going to have a hard time keeping the team together.

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:43 PM
And no, I don't want things both ways. Walsh didn't set the wheels in motion to break up the team and rebuild for a championship itself... he set the wheels in motion because he misjudged the end of the run. Badly. He misjudged the next phase of the Pacers as well (The Jalen Rose Pacers)... Let alone the Bender experiment.

And even if we couldn't have beaten the Lakers, I sure would've like to have seen the team trying instead of flaming out in the first round those following seasons.

Smits was gone. Jax was gone. The coach was gone. Dale was grousing about his max contract. Your starting lineup was going to be Dale, Austin, Jalen, Reggie, and Best. I don't care what world you live in, that is not a championship team. That team would have been lucky to get out of the East.

Bball
04-17-2005, 01:46 PM
It is odd how you could say all that, yet still not address this:
Originally Posted by Anthem
And as a footnote, when your starting center retires and your starting point guard demands twice what he's worth, and for twice as long as he'll be able to play, you're going to have a hard time keeping the team together.



I didn't go there because I thought it was unnecessary territory and didn't address Hicks' point... but since you asked here it is in a nutshell for the 1,000,000th time.

A: Rik Smits was a non-factor anyway. His could be useful in spurts but he was dropping hints about retirement for a while (like saying he was going to retire). Maybe instead of trading AD for a scrawny, fragile, HS kid he should've been giving him the starting nod or trading him for a proven frontline player capable of playing IMMEDIATELY with a championship contender.

B: Mark Jackson. Jackson was dissed from way back when Walsh refused to address his contract (because imho Walsh had rebuilding on the mind and because he knew Jalen would like (or demand) Mark's starting PG spot to re-sign).

-Bball

Bball
04-17-2005, 01:49 PM
Smits was gone. Jax was gone. The coach was gone. Dale was grousing about his max contract. Your starting lineup was going to be Dale, Austin, Jalen, Reggie, and Best. I don't care what world you live in, that is not a championship team. That team would have been lucky to get out of the East.

You only get to that scenario when you start it from the 'rebuilding' scenario that began in 1999.

-Bball

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:55 PM
A: Rik Smits was a non-factor anyway. His could be useful in spurts but he was dropping hints about retirement for a while (like saying he was going to retire). Maybe instead of trading AD for a scrawny, fragile, HS kid he should've been giving him the starting nod or trading him for a proven frontline player capable of playing IMMEDIATELY with a championship contender.
El Torro Crappo. Smits wasn't effective in most of the finals, but he was effective in the rest of the playoffs. And he was an important part of the regular season. He was a unique player, and there wasn't anybody else like him out there. Certainly nobody we could have gotten for AD.


B: Mark Jackson. Jackson was dissed from way back when Walsh refused to address his contract (because imho Walsh had rebuilding on the mind and because he knew Jalen would like (or demand) Mark's starting PG spot to re-sign).
And yet we still offered Mark a contract that was more than fair, but Toronto offered him a ridiculous one. God told Mark to take the ridiculous one. He was the most overpaid player on the Raptors, and was traded in less than 5 months as a throw-in to make the salaries match in a deal with New York. NY didn't want him either, and got rid of him as soon as possible.

Interestingly, your response admits that we couldn't have kept both Jalen and Jax. So who would you have kept? And how would you have justified it to yourself, since not keeping both is part of what pissed you off about Walsh?

I'll go out on a limb here. If, before the season, Donnie had offered large long-term contract extensions to every contributing member of the team, we would be in worse shape than we are today, and we'd have no championship banner to show for it.

SoupIsGood
04-17-2005, 01:58 PM
I think I'd rather have the option to contend during the JO-era, than for a couple extra years of Reggie's team.

We aren't exactly in a great situation, but we do have what many teams spend years searching for: a franchise player who is not only an all-around star, but a low-post player.

Also, at least for the next few years, we have, in Dale, the perfect compliment to Jermaine. Dale covers for Jermaine's lack of toughness and rebounding ability.

However, we have a lot of questions at the 3 through 1 spots, but they should be answered in within at least a year, IMO.

Anthem
04-17-2005, 01:59 PM
We aren't exactly in a great situation,
We're not? I love our situation.


However, we have a lot of questions at the 3 through 1 spots, but they should be answered in within at least a year, IMO.
I don't have any questions at the 2 or the 3. At the 1, my only question is whether Tinsley can stay healthy for a season.

Bball
04-17-2005, 02:03 PM
Anthem,
I think we are derailing Hicks' thread with the side issues and history lessons. Do we really need to go over this old territory on a point by point basis?

Once we get past my theory that pulling the plug on 'Reggie's team' also cut the umbilical cord for a lot of casual fans then we are into a different discussion (about the why's, not the ramnifications) and I doubt Hicks' cares to hear it (again) ;)

-Bball

Anthem
04-17-2005, 02:07 PM
I think we are derailing Hicks' thread with the side issues and history lessons. Do we really need to go over this old territory on a point by point basis?
You brought it up.... :devil:


Once we get past my theory that pulling the plug on 'Reggie's team' also cut the umbilical cord for a lot of casual fans then we are into a different discussion (about the why's, not the ramnifications) and I doubt Hicks' cares to hear it (again) ;)
Fair enough. I agree that pulling the plug on 'Reggie's team' cut the cord for a lot of casual fans. I've always believed that, and never disagreed with you.

I just think the casual fan's a moron if they thought DD/Cro/Jalen/Reggie/Best was going to bring home a championship.

I have to run anyway. I'm missing the ABC game out here in Vegas :grumble: but I'll check in tonight.

:gopacers:

SoupIsGood
04-17-2005, 02:12 PM
We're not? I love our situation.


I don't have any questions at the 2 or the 3. At the 1, my only question is whether Tinsley can stay healthy for a season.

Well, I suppose the question's are mainly Ron and Jamaal.

As I was typing the "3 to 1" things, I knew I really didn't have a problem with the two spot, but I typed it anyhow. :brick:

Now, I don't know much about trading a BYC player, but because of his contract, I think we are more or less stuck with Tinsley. We have to hope that his health isn't going to be a major problem in coming seasons, or else I don't think we are going anywhere.

How Ron will behave upon return is the biggest question. If this suspension meant anything to him, perhaps he took the time to change his life for the better. If he comes back a changed man, then I, like you, would love the situation we're in. It'd be hard to see us not winning a title soon, assuming Jamaal stays healthy.

However, I get this feeling we are going to see Ron dumped for a bad contract and a draft pick or two at next year's trading dealine.

Hope I'm wrong.

Los Angeles
04-17-2005, 02:27 PM
I don't have any questions at the 2 or the 3. At the 1, my only question is whether Tinsley can stay healthy for a season.
No, he can't, and we jsut signed him for a long, expensive extension.

So here's something for the :sunshine: crew -

http://www.seafarer.gr/forecast/img/30.gif



:tongue:

Peck
04-18-2005, 03:19 AM
I feel very guilty for not rushing to Bball's defense with this. Both of us have always disagreed with the move that was made.

But it is what it is (or should it be it was what it was?).

Where Bball has gotten angry with the recent good play of our older player combined with veteran savy I have been made whole again by Dale Davis coming home.

In other words the bitterness has left me.

So as of now I do not have the energy or desire to fight this fight again, I've been figthing it non-stop for 4 1/2 years.

I think there was a definate deliberate miscalculation by Walsh at the end of the 99 season & I think other items overtook him & made some of his decisions for him.

To me we can all set here & go "yeah but" all day long.

You like the new group, we liked the old group.

Can't we just be happy with the current group? I am. :sunshine:

Bball
04-18-2005, 06:13 AM
However, I get this feeling we are going to see Ron dumped for a bad contract and a draft pick or two at next year's trading dealine.

Hope I'm wrong.

If Ron is the consumate team player and well behaved... assuming he's still here by the trade deadline... then I think the Pacers will see him thru the entire season.

I'd worry more about the summer months and early season. Once we are well into the season then he will be able to show his new improvements and also his importance to the team. That will make it hard for the team to trade him. As it stands, his own boneheaded actions have made him nearly untradeable right now. Of course if he starts acting up then I doubt the team gives him much slack anymore.

Soooo... oddly... as his trade value increases his chances of staying with the Pacers increase as well IMHO. OTOH, if he had much trade value soon after the brawl I think he'd be gone already.

IOW: I think Artest fans will be happy, as long as he maintains his head. Especially, if he can get thru the summer without someone making an attractive offer. If he doesn't keep his head, after all he and the team have went thru, then I'm not sure how anyone cannot understand the Pacers dumping him at the first opportunity. Kinda like they should or should've done with Bender :devil: (I added that Bender reference for Jay's cheat sheet ;) )

-Bball

Gyron
04-18-2005, 08:33 AM
I don't know if this relates to this "change" in pride that is being shown, but they mentioned last night on TV, that the attendance at Conseco this year is higher than it was last year with the 61 win team......

Discuss....

Bball
04-18-2005, 11:06 AM
I don't know if this relates to this "change" in pride that is being shown, but they mentioned last night on TV, that the attendance at Conseco this year is higher than it was last year with the 61 win team......

Discuss....

I heard them mention it... but I am not sure I believe it. Maybe more tix were sold due to last year's run but I'm not sure those people are showing up.

-Bball

circlecitysportsfan
04-18-2005, 11:14 AM
Plus this team has an attitude. The right attitude. Not the fake toughness and bravado we've seen in past years. No one likes to see JO whine to the ref after every play, no one wants to see Artest go crazy, no likes to see Bender. Why do you think that even though Austin has a horrendous salary (not as bad as bender's) he still gets more applause then anyone else who comes off the bench. Austin does not bring any immature/childish baggage. This team is tough physically and mentally, and they no that no one can beat them in those two aspects.

Austin gets applause for a different reason, same reason Hoiberg got a louder applause than Rose and AD when they came off the bench. Austin's contract is way worse than bender's.

Bball
04-18-2005, 11:28 AM
Austin gets applause for a different reason, same reason Hoiberg got a louder applause than Rose and AD when they came off the bench. Austin's contract is way worse than bender's.

Croshere's applause would die considerably if he started grousing with refs after every play and appeared to dog it on defense on some plays.

Since Bender isn't even playing, has barely ever played, it's hard to declare his contract better than Croshere's. Neither contract is anything to brag about and DW shouldn't be proud he signed either to those contracts.

Also, Croshere's early season performance has a lot to do with why there even is a post season performance. He played big for the Pacers immediately following the suspensions. His shooting went into the tank after his rib and/or shoulder injury around the west coast swing and never returned but I don't think anyone ever doubts his effort (they do doubt Bender's effort just as they somewhat doubted Jalen Rose's).

-Bball