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Ragnar
04-12-2005, 01:00 PM
Does anyone doubt that had Jalen played like he did against us this year in every game we would have kept him?

Of course the problem with him was always that he would follow a game like that up with a 5 pt performance.:rolleyes:

Los Angeles
04-12-2005, 01:22 PM
No, I think he would have followed every game with a bunch of complaining.

:D

Ragnar
04-12-2005, 01:46 PM
No, I think he would have followed every game with a bunch of complaining.

:D

Your just talking out of Harrisons ***. :devil:

DisplacedKnick
04-12-2005, 02:42 PM
Does anyone doubt that had Jalen played like he did against us this year in every game we would have kept him?

Of course the problem with him was always that he would follow a game like that up with a 5 pt performance.:rolleyes:

And the Raptors play us next! :dance: :cheers:

beast23
04-12-2005, 02:46 PM
Jalen was always fairly productive offensively, although it was not uncommon for him to pursue his own agenda.

The real problem most folks had with Jalen was that he didn't pursue any agenda at all on the defensive end of the court. He would go up against a superstar and get motiviated and prove to everyone that he was capable of playing excellent defense. Then would go back to sleep defensively for the next 7-8 games until the next superstar came along.

sixthman
04-12-2005, 03:59 PM
Does anyone doubt that had Jalen played like he did against us this year in every game we would have kept him?


I still do not believe quality of play issues were the motivating factor for Jalen's trade.

Jalen was unloaded because he made way too much money, once we knew JO would become a max player.

Plus we wanted a second center.

Al and JB also needed more playing time. Ron Artest sure screwed up that playing time business, at least for JB, didn't he?

ChicagoJ
04-12-2005, 04:14 PM
I still do not believe quality of play issues were the motivating factor for Jalen's trade.

Jalen was unloaded because he made way too much money, once we knew JO would become a max player.

Plus we wanted a second center.

Al and JB also needed more playing time. Ron Artest sure screwed up that playing time business, at least for JB, didn't he?

I agree with that. Jalen, plus throw-ins, was basically traded for two starters that became all-stars, a sixth-man, and backup PG. That's not "dumping the guy", that's a hefty trade for a SF.

I still believe that, if this particular trade wasn't available (and I still wish the Pacers would've talked the Bulls into giving us Oakley and his expiring contract instead of Artest but that's another story) that Jalen would probably still be with the Pacers and DW would've found another way to clear space to re-sign JO (and probably sign Brad Miller for cheap right after he lost his starting job to Eddy Curry.)

Unclebuck
04-12-2005, 04:36 PM
So many paths I could take with this discussion.

When the team changed in the summer of 2000, Jalen just did not fit in very well with the new team. A front line of J.O., Jef and Jalen is way, way too soft, and then you ad in Reggie and Tinsley, it was a bad mix. (I realize I am playing fast and loose with the lineup as it was a little different each season along the way) But the point I'm making is Jalen no longer fit in.

My source told me on more than one occassion that J.O and Jalen did not get along at all, and J.O made it known he was not going to re-sign with the Pacers if Jalen was still around. My source also told me that Jalen became very jeolous of Reggie. When the crowd would chant, REGGIE, Jalen would not like it one bit thinking he was the better player.

Jalen wanted to be the man finally in 2001, but then J.O started to be the man, so he hated that also.

If you remember in Jalen's last year here, he was playing fewer and fewer minutes 4th quarter minutes and AL was playing more and more. Al then blew his ACL in mid january and the whole team suffered. The defense became terrible and every defensive flaw of Jalen's became obvious.

So yes Jalen had to go. DW made a trade that will go down as one of the best in Pacers history. Just to dump Jalen's contract it was a great trade.

The day the trade went down was one of the best days in Pacers history.


So getting back to the original question Jalen was going to be traded regardless. At the time of the trade many thought it was a bad trade and that the Bulls got the better of it. Artest was known to be wacky, Brad was a decent center but nothing more. I would say 75% of the "casual Pacer fans thought it was a very questionable trade.

My bigest problem with Jalen had nothing to do with his offense. But his defense was IMO beyond bad. Reggie often defended the better offfensive player because Jalen was so bad. I know someone will say that Jalen defended MJ in 1998, yes, but Reggie not Jalen defended Kobe in the 2000 Finals. And in the 2001 & 2002 I honestly thought Reggie was a more effective defender than Jalen



Edit: actually something did bother me about Jalen's offensive game. He was so streaky and he seldom was there when he was needed. He was the ultimate frontrunner. If i had a dollar for every 4th quarter point he scored when the pacers were up by 10 or more, I'd be rich. he was most effective when the pacers were either up by 10 or more or down by 10 or more.

ABADays
04-12-2005, 04:47 PM
Ahhhh . . . Jalen "El Matador" Rose. It's funny, I absolutely went balistic when we traded for him. Then he showed some signs of really becoming "A Pacer". Out the window with that. He wanted to be the man - as he has wanted to everywhere. I got annoyed because this was still Reggie's team and an imposter was trying to horn in. I was glad when he left.

beast23
04-12-2005, 06:38 PM
Not to defend Jalen, because as you guys might recall, I was all over Jalen as much as I am Bender now, but he was capable of playing excellent defense.

The problem that I had with him is that he only played defense when he felt like it. And when he did feel like it, he would still take a breather from defense 4-5 possessions a game when he stayed on the offensive end to b!tch about a call that didn't go his way.

Regardless of how much talent the guy had/has, he is one of my most detested players ever.

And I totally agree with Buck. Jalen was going to be traded if Bird had stayed, and Jalen was going to be traded once Thomas coached him for awhile as well.

If we hadn't fleeced Chicago, then Jalen would have been traded for a bag of Dorito chips and throw-ins.

Unclebuck
04-12-2005, 06:49 PM
It is no coincidence that the Bulls soured on Jalen pretty quickly and traded him, for an aging AD and the junk yard dog. As I remember the Raptors wanted Marhsall but agreed to take Rose to make the trade happen. The Raptors have been trying to trade the guy ever since they got him.

ChicagoJ
04-13-2005, 10:13 AM
It is no coincidence that the Bulls soured on Jalen pretty quickly and traded him, for an aging AD and the junk yard dog. As I remember the Raptors wanted Marhsall but agreed to take Rose to make the trade happen. The Raptors have been trying to trade the guy ever since they got him.

Jalen was mis-advertised by the Bulls to thier fans. They believed, since he was a "max" player who was previously the leading scorer on an NBA Finals team that he was the kind of guy that could turnaround and carry a bad team. But that's not Jalen. Jalen - with a strong supporting cast - can lift an ECF team into The Finals but Jalen, without a competent supporting cast, can't lift a cellar-dwellar out of the lottery. But neither can Elton Brand, and he still gets lots of "love" and he's never been the best player on a NBA Finals team.

But the Bulls were so happy to dump Artest and get anything for him and they wanted to get Eddy Curry minutes ahead of Brad Miller and they were still reeling from mis-advertising Krause's big FA signing (Mercer) to thier fans - the same mis-advertisement that plagued Jalen in Chicago - so that trade was an absolute no-brainer from the Bulls perspective.

Bulls fans, including Paxson, soured on Jalen (and Mercer) simply because of thier utter contempt for everything Krause was doing at the time. Jalen's PPG actually increased in Chicago, the only complaint of any substance about Jalen was that he never developed into a super-clutch player, in part because the Pacers never game him that opportunity. Jalen was asked to carry the team for 3 1/2 quarters then defer to Reggie down the stretch. He's human. If our bosses consistently asked us to do that, we'd probably all eventually get resentful of the "boss's pet" too. "Put in all the dirty work, but someone else gets all the glory when we win." Seriously, who here wouldn't be de-motivated by that if it happened to you?

I seriously do not understand the hatred from this board for Jalen. I know that when I still lived in Indy, he was one of the most popular players in our portion of the arena. For some reason, he still gets a nice ovation when he returns. Mark and Slick love him. Reggie loves him. He was the best player on our only NBA Finals team, and you guys make me sound like I'm the :sunshine: guy. :shrug:

Unclebuck
04-13-2005, 10:33 AM
I like Jalen as a person, I just did not like his defense. His best role is as 6th man. That is what Sam Mitchel tried with him earlier this season

Ragnar
04-13-2005, 10:41 AM
And the Raptors play us next! :dance: :cheers:

I guess that did not work out. :blush:

ChicagoJ
04-13-2005, 10:50 AM
I like Jalen as a person, I just did not like his defense. His best role is as 6th man. That is what Sam Mitchel tried with him earlier this season

I don't agree. Sam gave up on that pretty quickly when he saw that his team was better with Jalen on the court for as many minutes as possible. His best role is perimeter scorer/ creator. But you need to compliment him with very solid interior presence - the type of defense DD and McKey could provide; and a passing PG, like Jackson. Chicago, Toronto, and the Isiah Thomas-era Pacers have exposed the weaknesses in his game. The Pacers, circa the late-nineties, were built around the tandem of him and Reggie - to maximize thier offensive versatility and cover thier defensive weaknesses. He's talented and versatile, and he makes it look so easy (thus, fans in Indiana that adore "hardworking" players like Workman or DD miss the point - he's *so* talented that it does look easy for him.)

Let's look at this a little differently. If the Pacers traded for a slashing PG -say- Stephan Marburry, and JO's talents were underutilized and his weaknesses were exposed, then not only would Ragnar be suicidal, but fans would start complaining about JO's weaknesses (he is not very good when facing the basket, for example) and label him as "overpaid" with his max contract.

DisplacedKnick
04-13-2005, 10:53 AM
Jalen as a person, member of community, etc., was everything you could ask for. Jalen the player was something else.

When the team was broken up Jalen was basically given the reins, something that shouldn't have happened (hindsight's wonderful isn't it?).

Everyone else has talked about his defense & the way he'd hang in the backcourt arguing with refs while the ball went the other way on a 3-on-1 - maybe he figured he could stop a fast break by being called for a T.

He was somewhat cursed from the start because Travis Best started that season while Jalen was injured and IMO showed that he deserved the starting PG spot. IIRC, when Jalen returned he was avaeraging in the 16 and 8 range but when he returned there were no questions asked - Jalen started.

What I really didn't like was that Jalen set the attitude for the entire team that year - along with Isiah. By the end of the season JO and Al argued with the refs constantly - just like Jalen. They griped about the refs in the post-games - it was always the fault of the officials - Lord knows it couldn't have been that they weren't able to defend the other guys, or run their offense effectively, etc. And of course the referees were setting Isiah's lineup that season with Sam Perkins and Derrick McKey starting over Harrington and Foster.

There was a lack of accountability with that team that sucked just about everyone into it. It wasn't only Jalen but he was a big piece of it.

The following season IMO the spur for the trade was simple wins and losses. The team had been playing well until Harrington's knee injury. They were in a tailspin, had dropped to 23-27 or something like that, and Donnie made a move. Earlier in the year I believe Donnie actually had to tell isiah to get on Jalen's case about his play. Jalen tried - he D'd up more, took fewer shots, etc., but he also didn't look like he knew what his role on the court was any more. It just wasn't working.

But it all stems from a combination of not giving effort on D, not taking responsibility when things didn't go well and, last but not least, playing PG when he was a better player at SF.

To this day I think that if Isiah hadn't given him such a blank check he wouldn't have had nearly the problems. He hadn't the finals year when Carlisle was on his case whenever he dogged it. Of course then he lobbied pretty hard for Isiah t replace Bird ...

DisplacedKnick
04-13-2005, 10:55 AM
I guess that did not work out. :blush:

No - pretty sad when you're up 16 at halftime against a team coming off a tough loss in the 2nd game of a back-to-back.

I'm beginning to think Herb isn't the answer at coach either. If he can't motivate them any better than that ... IMO that's all the rest of the season is - a Herb Williams audition. If it ended now, he wouldn't get a second reading.

Ragnar
04-13-2005, 10:58 AM
Jay I dont know that I would be suicidal. If next year Reggie was retired and we traded JT for Steph I would just stop watching. I could never go through 82 games of Marbury.

If for some reason my love for the Pacers overcame my hatred for Starbury then yes I would probably be suicidal.

sweabs
04-13-2005, 11:04 AM
I like Jalen as a person, I just did not like his defense. His best role is as 6th man. That is what Sam Mitchel tried with him earlier this season

I think a lot of Jalen's success at that time stems from what was being said in the media. A lot of Toronto mediots assumed that when he was the 6th man, he was now in effect worthless, and were coming out and saying things like "If Babcock can find a way to trade Jalen, he is GM of the year", etc. Jalen would come off each game denying them, and performing well.

When he was placed back into the starting role, the talk in the media subsided, and so did Jalen's game. Obviously I'm not saying this is the only reason he performed so well off the bench - but I think it had a lot to do with motivation and self-respect (having to prove himself).

ChicagoJ
04-13-2005, 11:17 AM
When the team was broken up Jalen was basically given the reins, something that shouldn't have happened (hindsight's wonderful isn't it?).

There was a lack of accountability with that team that sucked just about everyone into it. It wasn't only Jalen but he was a big piece of it.

-snip- Earlier in the year I believe Donnie actually had to tell isiah to get on Jalen's case about his play. Jalen tried - he D'd up more, took fewer shots, etc., but he also didn't look like he knew what his role on the court was any more. It just wasn't working.

But it all stems from a combination of not giving effort on D, not taking responsibility when things didn't go well and, last but not least, playing PG when he was a better player at SF.

To this day I think that if Isiah hadn't given him such a blank check he wouldn't have had nearly the problems. -snip-

I snipped those parts out because that's exactly the point I'm trying to get to.

Isiah totally butchered the Jalen Rose situation - first he gave him too much. Not Jalen's fault. Then, once that didn't work out so well, he tried to reel Jalen back in and left the entire team confused as to what their roles were. Again, not Jalen's fault.

I'm not saying Jalen's "the greatest ever" and I'll happily admit his game has weaknesses and deficencies, but a lot of the stuff he gets blamed for was an understandable reaction to Isiah's schizophrenic coaching, and to a lesser extent the roots of it apparently began because of the love-fest between Bird and "fourth-quarter" Reggie.

Still, if my team has a solid interior presence, a strong PG, and needs a perimeter scorer, Jalen is at the very, very top of my list of players to fill that role. Even with a max contract, because I believe he earned that contract based on his play in the 1999-2000 season and I believe he could still earn it in that same role.

ChicagoJ
04-13-2005, 11:20 AM
Jay I dont know that I would be suicidal. If next year Reggie was retired and we traded JT for Steph I would just stop watching. I could never go through 82 games of Marbury.

If for some reason my love for the Pacers overcame my hatred for Starbury then yes I would probably be suicidal.


YES!! Somebody understands why I'm so crabby about this team/ Artest! So far I haven't been able to stop watching - although I've guaranteed to everyone around me "in the real world" that if he's still on the team after the deadline next February that I'll stop watching at that time.

beast23
04-13-2005, 01:07 PM
Jay, I just don't understand that... because Artest is so much more than Jalen Rose.

Off the court, I believe both are great guys. I used to see Jalen and his posse out and about several times a year in the area where I live, and found all the guys very approachable, friendly and easy to talk to... so yes, I liked Jalen the person. I've observed Artest out with his family on several occassions and formed the opinion that he is a great dad, just based on the attention he heaps on his kids and even other children that approach him.

On the court, I even find some similarities. I believe both are competent offensive players. Both are capable of hitting the perimeter shot and both are capable of getting to the basket. On the downside, the confidence that each has in his own game sometimes causes him to break plays and pursue his own agenda. You are correct that Jalen is more fluid than most players and does make things look easy on the offensive end. But I believe both players give maximum effort on the offensive end of the court.

That is where the similarities end. Artest is a DPOY and gives as much effort as any player in the league defensively. Actually, observing the way Artest covers his man even away from the ball, I'd say that Artest gives MORE effort defensively than any other player in the league.

You seem to accept that Jalen plays ****-poor defense. You even partially make an excuse for Jalen, saying that Isiah caused him to become "role-confused".

I think you totally miss the point regarding Jalen's defense. He did NOT play poor defense due to any incapability of playing better. He CHOSE to play poor defense. He just plain loafed on the defensive end of the floor. And that is why I have no love for Jalen Rose. In fact I feel the same way regarding Jalen as Peck does regarding Satan, since Jalen could have re-tooled McKey's Popeye speech and used it regarding the way he chose to play defense.

If Jalen gave maximum effort on defense and just didn't prove successful in stopping his opponent, I could accept that. But you saw the games... and you certainly must realize that Jalen was capable of playing exceptional defense. I think he just felt that there is no glory in playing defense, so why not let someone else carry that luggage and do the dirty work while he conserved his energy to use where the real glory is... scoring points on the offensive end.

Jeez, I didn't want to get into this. I absolutely despised Jalen Rose... the player. No matter how you cut it, there will never be an excuse for a player to not give a consistently high, if not maximum effort. At both ends of the court.

ChicagoJ
04-13-2005, 01:21 PM
I was never happy with Jalen's defense, except for the 1998 ECFs.... don't get me wrong.

But Jalen, and the Pacers, flourished when he was given the right role. He might've driven us all bonkers at one end of the court, but he usually more-than-made-up for that with his all-around offensive performance.

I really liked Jalen the player, and I can understand why others didn't. He had weaknesses, and he was still young and immature at times. That's why he was a role player given the role of "Go out there and score!!" But I can't really comprehend despising him. :shrug:

There's something about the way Pacers fans make heros out of "hard workers" but never fully embrace guys with immense talent that I've never understood.

I'm not trying to get into a Jalen v. Artest debate. I *should* be rivaling you guys as Ron's biggest fan, its not like I don't appreciate the skills and effort he brings to the court, but I just can't get past all the disruptions and immaturity.

Unclebuck
04-13-2005, 01:43 PM
YES!! Somebody understands why I'm so crabby about this team/ Artest! So far I haven't been able to stop watching - although I've guaranteed to everyone around me "in the real world" that if he's still on the team after the deadline next February that I'll stop watching at that time.



Really. I just don't understand that at all. Man, I've missed Artest so much I can't describe. He adds a spark to the game that no one else can begin to match.


Jay as far as making heros out of "hard workers". I don't know about that. I think it takes a certain talent to be a hustle player. It takes a certain personality.

PacerMan
04-13-2005, 01:51 PM
No, I think he would have followed every game with a bunch of complaining.

:D

While insisting that he's one of the top 10 players in the league.

3Ball
04-13-2005, 03:02 PM
I didn't realize this until today, but both Jalen and Ronnie have about the same 14.5 ppg career scoring average. Of course, Jalen's best years are well behind him and Artest's averages have increased every year. My biggest observation about his offensive game is this (not to drift too far from the topic at hand): at the beginning of the year he is most effective. This is because his hands are constantly injured, but they are healthiest earlier on. By February, teams figure out that he has lost his outside shot, and that limits him in other areas offensively. I am nuturing a hope that with a nearly 1 1/2 year layoff from NBA basketball (-5 or so games) that his hand problems can be behind him for next year. That would make a big difference if he can remain a threat from the outside for an entire season.

Bball
04-13-2005, 03:19 PM
This is because his hands are constantly injured, but they are healthiest earlier on. By February, teams figure out that he has lost his outside shot, and that limits him in other areas offensively.

I think the migraines had a cumulative effect on Artest and his offensive performance over the course of the season. :devil:

-Bball

BTW: Note for my cheatsheet Jay + Jalen = :love:

;)

ChicagoJ
04-13-2005, 03:47 PM
I think the migraines had a cumulative effect on Artest and his offensive performance over the course of the season. :devil:

-Bball

BTW: Note for my cheatseat Jay + Jalen = :love:

;)

Yeah, but he'll never replace Chuck as my first :love: .

Arcadian
04-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Arcadian liked Jalen the person. Arcadian even enjoyed Jalen the basketball player. Arcadian didn't think much of Jalen the teammate and especially Jalen the team leader.