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Will Galen
04-11-2005, 11:06 PM
http://sports.excite.com/news/04112005/v4758.html

O'Neal thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement. "In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has a been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said. "As a black guy, you kind of think that's the reason why it's coming up. You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?"
-----

I have no desire to have a race debate. God views men as either good or bad by what they do, not their color, so why should we be different?

But I do want to discusss this. I think JO is mentioning race because an age limit is David Sterns baby. Reggie has been critical of Stern which I think is justified. I think JO is trying to get to Stern another way because what JO says about race and age doesn't compute.

What's everyone else think? Is this JO just trying to get back at Stern?

Hicks
04-11-2005, 11:08 PM
Methinks JO is seeing what he wants to see. He's pulled this card on several issues.

gilpdawg
04-11-2005, 11:12 PM
Dumbass comment by JO. The age limit has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that 90% of the players that come straight out of high school suck for the first three years, which overall kills the quality of play in the league.

Los Angeles
04-11-2005, 11:15 PM
Well Reggie is actually for an age limit, so I dont' think he should be listed as an ally.

The real problem is this: JO makes no sense here, whatsoever. If he really thinks there is a bias based on race I hope next time he spells it out a little better. He should at least attempt to make the connection.

Boy-oh-boy, when LA fans call him a cry-baby, it's hard to stick up for JO when he blows the lid off like this.
















Maybe if he spent a year or two in college he would make more sense.

:devil:

:zip:

Jermaniac
04-11-2005, 11:23 PM
JO is right, They want you to go to war and fight for some bull**** but you cant play basketball cause your 18. Who cares what you decide to do after your HS career is over, if you are good enough go play in the pro's if you are not then go play in college, and the guy who dont make it well its their fault and they have to live with that they just made a very big mistake coming into the draft. But you look at the top 10 players in the NBA today half of them never went to college. KG,Lebron,Kobe,JO,T-Mac. Let these guys do what they want.

Hicks
04-11-2005, 11:25 PM
JO is right, They want you to go to war and fight for some bull**** but you cant play basketball cause your 18. Who cares what you decide to do after your HS career is over, if you are good enough go play in the pro's if you are not then go play in college, and the guy who dont make it well its their fault and they have to live with that they just made a very big mistake coming into the draft. But you look at the top 10 players in the NBA today half of them never went to college. KG,Lebron,Kobe,JO,T-Mac. Let these guys do what they want.

Where in that ramble does that prove JO is right? He's pulling the race card over this, and it's silly.

Will Galen
04-11-2005, 11:32 PM
JO is right, They want you to go to war and fight for some bull**** but you cant play basketball cause your 18. Who cares what you decide to do after your HS career is over, if you are good enough go play in the pro's if you are not then go play in college, and the guy who dont make it well its their fault and they have to live with that they just made a very big mistake coming into the draft. But you look at the top 10 players in the NBA today half of them never went to college. KG,Lebron,Kobe,JO,T-Mac. Let these guys do what they want.

A lot of us agree with his position on age. We just don't think race has anything to do with it. Maybe that article wasn't an accurate quote because what Jo is saying doesn't make sense.

Jaydawg2270
04-11-2005, 11:35 PM
Stern is racist

indygeezer
04-11-2005, 11:37 PM
Where in that ramble does that prove JO is right? He's pulling the race card over this, and it's silly.

It doesn't say anything about white or hispanic kids under 20 being allowed does it? No? Then it is equally discriminatory...against AGE, not race.

Now, as I've said for years...my 9-5 requires a certain amount of college JUST TO GET INTERVIEWED. THe more education you have, the better they pay you, etc etc. Hiring discrimination is widespread and there is nothing unconstitutional about what they propose. THey are not saying you can only get in the league if you have been to college. You can lay out and work to support your family, and then try when you are of age, but 20 is a requirement of employment.

Arcadian
04-11-2005, 11:39 PM
I have seen that quote before. Did he say that again recently or are the Canadians rehashing it?

To a degree I think he is correct that there is a racial subtext to the issue of young black men skipping college and making millions. I don't think that it is racism, however.

shags
04-11-2005, 11:45 PM
A lot of us agree with his position on age. We just don't think race has anything to do with it. Maybe that article wasn't an accurate quote because what Jo is saying doesn't make sense.

Good post. Robert Swift must be the whitest black guy in the world.

Philosophically, I'm against the age limit. If teams will draft you, then it really shouldn't matter how old you are.

However, I think the NBA & college would both be better off with an age limit (2 years out of HS). Kwame Brown's a free agent this year, and the Wizards have no idea how good he is after 4 years. The Pacers were in a similar situation with Bender, and look how that turned out. That'll be the way it is two years from now with the Pistons with Darko.

It makes sense financially and for the product if scouts and GMs can see these players for two years in college (or two years overseas) before they draft them. The more I think about it, the more I'm for an age limit.

PacerMan
04-12-2005, 12:03 AM
The NBA would be better off and colleges would be WAY better off. BUT this is AMERICA, and you can't tell a MAN where he can or can't work.
And make no mistake, if you are 18 and out of high school, you are a man. (whether you REALLY are or not).
And Jermaine is REALLY lame for pulling the race card on this. Tribute to Johnny Cochrane?? (an a**hole no longer)

Ragnar
04-12-2005, 12:03 AM
The real reason the NBA wants an age limit has nothing to do with the quality of the product or racism. They want the NCAA to market their future stars for them. If people get to know the players from college they are more likely to follow them into the pro's. We have at least one person on this forum from Oregon because of Freddie.

Hoop
04-12-2005, 12:46 AM
I think JO he raises some very valid points, not sure about the race part but it makes you think. No limit in baseball, soccer or hockey.

There are tons of valid points why an age limit would be good, but it still comes down to the fact that when your 18 years old your legally an adult. You should be able to get a job anywhere you want to just like everyone else in life.

The age limit is not being considered because they care about the kids, it's all about the money. The owners want a rule against it because they can't stop themselves when it comes to drafting the potential next big thing. If one team passes on a high school kid the next team will draft them. The kid is not suffering he's getting paid regardless if he's a bust or not. A first round draft pick is going to get paid more than he'd make in a lifetime at most regular jobs.

The game may suffer, the owners may suffer and the fans may suffer, but I still don't see how they can limit a adult getting a job anywhere he wants. I agree with JO that it is unconstitutional.

Peck
04-12-2005, 01:12 AM
The easiest answer to all of this is a real & true farm system.

If a player is not ready for the big time then he can be sent down to the farm league where he can develop away from the light of the fans but well under the control of the team.

That way a player can play when he is ready no matter what his age is. If he's ready at 18 then he can play right now. If he needs a couple of seasons then away to the NBDL he goes.

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-12-2005, 02:47 AM
I don't think JO should have played the Race card. What in GODs friggin' name does it have to do with RACE? Absolutely nothin'! It's not going to stop any ethnicity from playing in the NBA. I don't know if there should be an age limit or not. However, I do agree that some of these young players need time to learn the basics and mature a little bit. Guys like Lebron are rare. I don't think it is right or wrong - it will be what it will be.

I just wish JO would have kept quiet right now. His remarks made a headline over Reggie's milestone on espn.com. Plus with the playoffs coming up, I just think the team should have one focus right now.

Anthem
04-12-2005, 02:53 AM
I don't think it's a race thing.

But Jermaine's mentioned this issue a couple of times, and he's got a good point. What's the deal with basketball? Why is the standard so different from other sports? This is true both of arena violence and the age limit... big deals in basketball that are non-issues in other sports.

If it's not race, what is it?

Bball
04-12-2005, 03:11 AM
I don't think it's a race thing.

But Jermaine's mentioned this issue a couple of times, and he's got a good point. What's the deal with basketball? Why is the standard so different from other sports? This is true both of arena violence and the age limit... big deals in basketball that are non-issues in other sports.

If it's not race, what is it?

Well, as someone said it could be that the NBA would like players who have already been 'marketed' somewhat.

It could also be because GM's feel pressure to draft 'the next MJ' . Unfortunately , many times they are taken only to find out they have a bust on their hands. Not good for the player (except his immediate wallet situation), not good for the fans to see their team hamstrung to a bust, and not good to the bottomline of the team to waste draft picks.

A farm system could alleviate some of this. Some of these players might blossom if they could get on the court but most NBA teams can't give them the minutes they need while the team tries to 'win now'.

-Bball

Peck
04-12-2005, 03:20 AM
Well, as someone said it could be that the NBA would like players who have already been 'marketed' somewhat.

It could also be because GM's feel pressure to draft 'the next MJ' . Unfortunately , many times they are taken only to find out they have a bust on their hands. Not good for the player (except his immediate wallet situation), not good for the fans to see their team hamstrung to a bust, and not good to the bottomline of the team to waste draft picks.

A farm system could alleviate some of this. Some of these players might blossom if they could get on the court but most NBA teams can't give them the minutes they need while the team tries to 'win now'.

-Bball

Just imagine what a farm system could have done for the Pacers & Bender. He could have gone & played some actual games vs. actual competition when the scoreboard counts.

He would have either:

A. Proven that he definately had potential & deserved the salary extension he was given.
B. Shown that this is a guy who was a gifted athelete but had a very limited basketball knowledge so they would let the market dictate his value & if it was what they thought was fair they would match & if not they would let him go.
C. Decide that this guy was as tough as tissue, limited basketball I.Q. & had little to no heart so they would just have let him walk.

But instead we have the limbo we have right now.

For those of you that are sick of me using Bender as an example then take out poor little Jon & insert the name Jamison, James or whoever else you want.

Actually here is an ironic little note. How bad would it have been for the Commish to have suspended Ron Artest from the N.B.A. for 30 games & then relagate him to the farm team for the rest of the season?

Will Galen
04-12-2005, 03:23 AM
I don't think it's a race thing.

But Jermaine's mentioned this issue a couple of times, and he's got a good point. What's the deal with basketball? Why is the standard so different from other sports? This is true both of arena violence and the age limit... big deals in basketball that are non-issues in other sports.

If it's not race, what is it?


It's money. It's David Stern. He wants an age limit because the owners don't like paying big bucks for young guys to sit. Like has been said the solution isn't an age limit it's a development league. But the owners would have to lay out money there too. An age limit doesn't cost anything. So they want an age limit to protect them from themselves.

Issues are made by people, different people, different issues. Take owner Mark Cuban for instant, one of his pet issues is referees. But all owners want to spend less money if they can, thus the big issue is an age limit.

indygeezer
04-12-2005, 07:30 AM
I doubt you would be hearing all that much about this had not the US had their butz kicked in the last few international competitions. Rightly or wrongly, it makes it appear as tho the US game is deteriorating badly. IMO, it has brought out the fact that the US is about marketing the individual and international is about the team. But rather than change philosophy, we point to fundamentals (isn't team play fundamental??) and say they can be improved if we force more "coaching" on the players before they get to the pros. In one regards I agree, maturity-wise there is a vast difference between an 18 yr old fresh outta HS and a guy that's been out a couple of years. Perhaps they would be more ready to handle the pressure of the NBA if they had a couple of years in the "real" world before having all the money and notoriety thrown at them.

Stryder
04-12-2005, 08:24 AM
Nothing wrong with an age or experience rule.

Just as the Geez stated above, my JOB requires me to have a Master's Degree or higher. I didn't come in complaining, whining, and b*tching because they wouldn't hire me when I only had a Bachelor's degree.

Hicks
04-12-2005, 08:28 AM
I agree with those that are pointing out that job's can and do require more than a high school deploma very often. If Stern and co. want to get around some of the griping, all they have to do is say the NBA requires at least two years of college basketball experience. Now there are always exceptions, but generally that would ensure the players will all be 20 before they can play. No age limit is officially introduced, just play up the experience angle. And there is a lot of truth to the fact that it IS an experience issue, not age. It's not that "oh, they're 18, boo hiss" it's "They don't know what they're doing, they're not ready, and now while we're paying them we have to teach them too". Better they learn more in college first.

Peck
04-12-2005, 08:44 AM
But why force college on players who have zero desire to be there. IMO, it cheapens everything. The N.B.A. should not be there to benefit major college basketball & vice versa.

I know I am in the vast minority on this but I just believe that a student athlete should be just that. Not a person who is killing time till the N.B.A. starts.

A farm system is the only true answer.

Actually if you want my opinion on this I think it's a lot of talk about nothing because like all things, given time, it usually self corrects. I think the upcoming draft will see more U.S. college players than last year did.

I think G.M.'s will not automatically go for high schooler anymore. Yes, the following season the H.S. kid from Indy will go # 1 but don't be sure that it will always go that way.

I guess I'm with J.O. on this when it comes to an age limit.

I really don't get when you guys are saying that there should be an experiance rule. Does that mean you have to have a 4 year degree in basketball? What if you don't start any of the 4 years but 1, is that enough experiance?

Does it have to be a division 1 school? Does this eleminate foriegn players who dont' attend U.S. schools?

What the hell does going to college have to do with playing in the N.B.A. other than the old "that's the way it has always been done" theory.

The N.B.D.L. is the answer. Players that can play will play, those that can't won't.

tseramid
04-12-2005, 08:52 AM
I agree 100% with Peck. I also think there is a hint of racial overtones with this, but this is more about money.

I am with this players on this one. There are kids out there trying to get themselves and their families out of horrible circumstances and they have the opportunity to do so, except now the league is saying, no, you have to attend college for the next couple of years before we let you in. It really doesn't make sense. If you are going to force them to go to college, should you not take the full step and force them to have a bachelor's degree to enter the NBA? It just seems so arbitrary.

Of course the other answer is for the kids to go to a team in Europe.

indygeezer
04-12-2005, 09:03 AM
I agree 100% with Peck. I also think there is a hint of racial overtones with this, but this is more about money.

I am with this players on this one. There are kids out there trying to get themselves and their families out of horrible circumstances and they have the opportunity to do so, except now the league is saying, no, you have to attend college for the next couple of years before we let you in. It really doesn't make sense. If you are going to force them to go to college, should you not take the full step and force them to have a bachelor's degree to enter the NBA? It just seems so arbitrary.

Of course the other answer is for the kids to go to a team in Europe.


BINGO!! THE NBA is NOT saying you have to go to college. If you wanna go to Europe you can...just don't apply until you are of age. It's a way of forcing them to get experience BEFORE making the millions. Complain all ya want about Bender and him being a bust but how much more value would he have had he gotten a couple of years of Euro ball or NBDL or college under his belt. OR how big of a mistake might it have prevented some GM from making if they had been able to watch him against REAL competition for a couple of years. Saying he has a right to make a living doesn;t mean the NBA MUST invest millions in him only to find out he's a bust. We're not talking minimum wage here. And there are certainly opportunities out there if the kid MUST help his family out. A family with nothing can survive nicely on 50-60,000 (I am) they don't have to have millions. So they CAN survive until he is ready for the big-time.

Alabama-Redneck
04-12-2005, 09:11 AM
You want to talk about experience. Put together a list of players with 1-4 years of college "experience" that have made a significant contribution to the team in their first year or two.

Most players entering the NBA require 1-3 years before they are ready to contribute. It also depends what college they attend. College coaches are no different than NBA coaches. You have good ones and bad ones.

In my opinion, the maturity level is the main factor not the basketball skill level. Players with 2-4 years of college seem to handle the "NBA lifestyle" better than an 18 year old.

As mentioned before by Peck, I like the idea of the NBDL and farm system much better than an age limit. It also allows smaller cities to have teams and develops a bigger fan base.

:cool:

Grant
04-12-2005, 09:19 AM
I heard Stephen A Smith (yeah I know) on the way into work this morning. He said:

1) A lot of NBA players agree with JO. They just were smart enough not to say anything.

2) Smith did not agree with JO, saying that the most important color to the NBA is green

NHL and MLB draft 18 year olds all the time. Golfers can go pro at 18. Tennis players are pro as young as 13. These sports are primarily white (MLB is more white/latino). Is it coincidence that no one talks about not allowing these players to play until they are 20 or 21?

The only other sport with age limits is the NFL, which is more black than white. Coincidence?

Fool
04-12-2005, 09:54 AM
The age limit is all about teams wanting to make their decisions easier. They don't like paying millions to have a guy ride their bench instead of someone elses in the hope that he blossoms into his potential while they still hold his contract.

As for the race card:

The NHL and MLB don't have age limits because they have minor league programs, not because they are dominated by white players (if indeed they are). Minor league programs mean that rarely does one of those 18 year olds (regardless of color) make it to the bigs the same year they are drafted only because there is no where else to put him while they wait to see if he is any good. Thus the "potential" that so many young players are drafted for can be fleshed out on a team's minor league club and only those who actually meet some or all of that potential play in the pros. The pro team gets to pick a guy, work with him, and see whether he will ever actually be good or not before they ever sit him on their bench or grant him the salary of a full-time pro player. <---this is the MAIN issue

Golf and tennis have no place in this argument as those are individual sports (even doubles is only a temporary agreement of two players to play together, no contracts are involved) and so no age limit is required as no "team" has to worry about losing the rights to a player based on them not developing during the term of their contract.

Bball
04-12-2005, 12:04 PM
I follow the NHL and MLB about as much as I follow the mating habits of insects but I'm under the impression their draft picks don't get paid like NBA 1st round draft picks. Is this true?

Plus they do have a farm system for these guys.

-Bball

Grant
04-12-2005, 12:07 PM
The age limit is all about teams wanting to make their decisions easier. They don't like paying millions to have a guy ride their bench instead of someone elses in the hope that he blossoms into his potential while they still hold his contract.

This may be the truth. However, when people talk about the age limit and kids coming out of high school, they almost universally talk about the danger to the kids and not to the business. They say things like:


They are not mature enough physically/emotionally.
They may not succeed in life without college if the pros don't work out.
Too many kids declare and then don't get drafted.

Athletes in other sports face the same obstacles, but the overriding concern seems to be that these poor high schoolers in the NBA will be in trouble unless they are successful. The inference of course is that a white hockey player will be fine if the NHL does not pan out, but a black NBA player that does not pan out is hopelessly lost.

*I will admit that I am playing devil's advocate to some degree

Los Angeles
04-12-2005, 12:16 PM
Many important jobs in the US have an age requirement that isn't related to education level.

Here's a few:

Member of House of Representatives
Senator
President of the United States

Age limits set by employers are included right in the US constitution. Right or wrong, there ain't nothing illegal about it.

Grant
04-12-2005, 12:29 PM
Age limits in and of themselves are not a problem, the issue is that there is concern for 18 year olds who are overwhelmingly black joining the NBA, but nobody cares if 18 year olds play in sports that are overwhelmingly white (golf, tennis, soccer, hockey, and to a lesser extent baseball).

indygeezer
04-12-2005, 12:30 PM
Don't misunderstand, I'm personally in favor of the NBDL or whatever, but I understand where the owners are coming from. Besides, I hate what it does to college programs when a player leaves after a year or two. Couldn't that wastedmoney have been better spent on someone truely interested in being a "student-athelete"? That is off topic tho.

Here's a question for JO. Show me how it is racist? The players coming out of HS into the NBA are taking somebody's job. Whose? Is there a mass loss of non-black players each year? No, they are replacing other PLAYERS of all ethnicities. So you have all races coming out of HS taking the jobs of players from all races. How is that racist? An age limit MIGHT be age discrimination, but not racism.

Los Angeles
04-12-2005, 12:44 PM
Age limits in and of themselves are not a problem, the issue is that there is concern for 18 year olds who are overwhelmingly black joining the NBA, but nobody cares if 18 year olds play in sports that are overwhelmingly white (golf, tennis, soccer, hockey, and to a lesser extent baseball).
All those other sports are either individual achievement sports (with heavy qualification systems) or have true development systems.

You can sign for 10 Mil a year in baseball and get sent to play for the Madison Muskies until you're ready. The team doesn't lose a roster spot, and still gets to keep you. In basketball, the speculation bender gets out of control bender. You sign to an NBA team bender, and don't work out bender the team loses a spot bender.

An age limit is an attempt to protect the league from overzealous speculators in management, not an attempt to keep "the black man down" (as my uncle used to say).

Fool
04-12-2005, 12:55 PM
Don't misunderstand, I'm personally in favor of the NBDL or whatever, but I understand where the owners are coming from. Besides, I hate what it does to college programs when a player leaves after a year or two. Couldn't that wastedmoney have been better spent on someone truely interested in being a "student-athelete"? That is off topic tho.

Here's a question for JO. Show me how it is racist? The players coming out of HS into the NBA are taking somebody's job. Whose? Is there a mass loss of non-black players each year? No, they are replacing other PLAYERS of all ethnicities. So you have all races coming out of HS taking the jobs of players from all races. How is that racist? An age limit MIGHT be age discrimination, but not racism.

Geezer, the argument for racism is from a broader perspective. They don't argue that "an age limit" is racist, as clearly its not. They argue that "an age limit" is only being implimented in sports whose players are predominantly black (the NFL and the NBA). They are arguing that the intention behind the age limit is actually racism not that the implimentation of the limit would be racist.

Harmonica
04-12-2005, 12:58 PM
But why force college on players who have zero desire to be there. IMO, it cheapens everything. The N.B.A. should not be there to benefit major college basketball & vice versa.

I know I am in the vast minority on this but I just believe that a student athlete should be just that. Not a person who is killing time till the N.B.A. starts.

A farm system is the only true answer.

Basketball is a business. And if it made sense from a business standpoint, then I'm sure there would be one by now. Moreover, the NCAA would suffer greatly from a farm system and you can imagine since the networks are a huge revenue source for both the NBA and NCAA, they would do everything in their power to discourage a farm system.

indygeezer
04-12-2005, 01:04 PM
Geezer, the argument for racism is from a broader perspective. They don't argue that "an age limit" is racist, as clearly its not. They argue that "an age limit" is only being implimented in sports whose players are predominantly black (the NFL and the NBA). They are arguing that the intention behind the age limit is actually racism not that the implimentation of the limit would be racist.

Were the NBA (NFL) majorly white I could see this arguement, but the fact is the HS kids are for the most part merely knocking other less talented or older black men out of THEIR jobs. NOw if they instituted the age limit and we went for 2 or 3 with no college players being selected and a rash of white Euro players flooding in, THEN i could see an arguement that it was a racist move.


BTW...baseball, has a tiered payscale. Big league/minor league. You get sent down your pay gets cut....now big names in rehab for an injury I dunno but I do know that the average joe goes on a minor league contract if he gets sent down....and the pay diference is significant.

Fool
04-12-2005, 01:10 PM
This may be the truth. However, when people talk about the age limit and kids coming out of high school, they almost universally talk about the danger to the kids and not to the business. They say things like:


They are not mature enough physically/emotionally.
They may not succeed in life without college if the pros don't work out.
Too many kids declare and then don't get drafted.

Athletes in other sports face the same obstacles, but the overriding concern seems to be that these poor high schoolers in the NBA will be in trouble unless they are successful. The inference of course is that a white hockey player will be fine if the NHL does not pan out, but a black NBA player that does not pan out is hopelessly lost.

*I will admit that I am playing devil's advocate to some degree

Well, you are doing a fine job of it and should take pride in that. To quote West Wing, "When a key issue comes up, we always practice by putting the really smart guys on the other team." (Thats more of a paraphrase.)

Anyway, I would argue that most "arguments" for the limit are window dressing and PR spin. Owners never like to come out and say "we are trying to cut costs or cut risk" because the American public, the poor slobs that we are, see it as the wealthy cutting jobs or hording money.

As to the "only the NBA and the NFL have/want age limits and those are sports dominated by black athletes" point. Those two leagues share another, and in my opinion, more important similiarity. They both use the NCAA as their major developmental tool. In both sports the NCAA pulls the playable status of anyone who hires an agent to enter their pro draft, and the drafts in both pro sports are greatly manipulated by the work of an agent (guiding their client towards particular workouts and holding them from over-exposure or risk of bad performance by being tested too much). Hockey and baseball players are often drafted while still playing for their college because their draft is less of an oportunity for agents to work and so hiring an agent isn't necessary.

Bball
04-12-2005, 01:13 PM
Hmmmm So what happens if the NCAA would change their eligibility requirements? Let's say, agent or not, a player doesn't get drafted. What if the NCAA was to declare that kid eligible to play college ball still? Or what if a kid goes thru summer camp and doesn't make it out of preseason... should he be get his college eligibility back (maybe with a penalty of losing a season)?

This takes away the part of the argument that says the situation isn't fair to kids who declare and then don't make the cut. As for busts like Bender, being a 1st round pick should net a player enough cash to make 'needing' to go to college a moot argument. And they could certainly afford it if they wanted.

As for the racism part of the argument... It is silly. Look at the numbers of black players in the NBA. Is it any surprise that an age limit might affect blacks more than whites? But it isn't like the age limit isn't applied across the board. And no one is saying these players don't have options (except for maybe the NCAA).

Nowwww.... that said... I might listen to an argument that a player (use Lebron as an example here) who is talented enough to play at 18 but is forced to the minors (or college or overseas) could get injured in those 2 years and threaten his career earnings. That still has nothing to do with race.

I agree with two comments I've read so far:
The only color the NBA is worried about is green...
and
This is something the owners/league wants to save them from themselves (so as not to get into competition for players who have had limited visibility and competition)

-Bball

Los Angeles
04-12-2005, 01:13 PM
BTW...baseball, has a tiered payscale. Big league/minor league. You get sent down your pay gets cut....now big names in rehab for an injury I dunno but I do know that the average joe goes on a minor league contract if he gets sent down....and the pay diference is significant.
Ah, thanks for pointing out the pay thing.

Bball
04-12-2005, 01:15 PM
Anyway, I would argue that most "arguments" for the limit are window dressing and PR spin. Owners never like to come out and say "we are trying to cut costs or cut risk" because the American public, the poor slobs that we are, see it as the wealthy cutting jobs or hording money.



I think the American public would listen to an argument saying that the influx of unproven players dilutes the league.

-Bball

Fool
04-12-2005, 01:25 PM
I think the American public would listen to an argument saying that the influx of unproven players dilutes the league.

-Bball

Exactly, which is why its one of the arguements they throw out there. Indeed it might be a real concern. My point is only that all else being equal its really about the money and not about any other claim (the game quality, the future of the players, those players who don't make it, racism).

Fool
04-12-2005, 01:30 PM
Were the NBA (NFL) majorly white I could see this arguement, but the fact is the HS kids are for the most part merely knocking other less talented or older black men out of THEIR jobs. NOw if they instituted the age limit and we went for 2 or 3 with no college players being selected and a rash of white Euro players flooding in, THEN i could see an arguement that it was a racist move.


Again, I think you are missing the argument slightly. You are arguing that since the age limit won't affect the racial make up of the league's players, it isn't racist. That would only be a response to someone arguing that the implimentation of the age limit was racist. But thats not what those arguing racism are saying.

They are arguing that the grounds behind the age limit, not the actual carrying it out, is racism. They admit that generally the same players will be getting into the league and thus the racial make up of the league's players will stay the same. They ARE arguing however, that the reason the owners want an age limit is because the under 20 players they are paying are either not intelligent enough to be allowed to determine their own lives and make an intelligent choice of whether to join the NBA (NFL) or not, or that those players who wash out are helpless after they leave the NBA(NFL) and need help before they enter for when they will eventually be out of the league. They argue that no one is looking to "help" the under 20 MLB'ers (NHL'ers) in the same way and that the only discernable difference between the two groups is that the under 20 NBA'ers (NFL'ers) are black while the under 20 MLB'ers (NHL'ers) are white.

The difference isn't those who would be in the NBA with and with out an age limit but who is getting "arbitrary" age limits, black athletes vs white athletes. Whether you agree with either side is up to you, but I think the above arguments represent the basic racism argument in this case.

Evan_The_Dude
04-12-2005, 01:42 PM
The real reason the NBA wants an age limit has nothing to do with the quality of the product or racism. They want the NCAA to market their future stars for them. If people get to know the players from college they are more likely to follow them into the pro's. We have at least one person on this forum from Oregon because of Freddie.

I agree 100%. And you know, I remember back when I actually followed Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, and Kerry Kittles into the league, they didn't stay all 4 years, but they stayed long enough to be marketable. Players aren't on national tv for high school games like they are in college. Plus, I think the league was more exciting when more of the players went to college.

Coach
04-12-2005, 03:18 PM
This may be a little off topic of the thread but I think that college programs should be accountable for who they recruit. I have no problem with someone going straight to the NBA or NBDL. I have more of a problem with someone who takes a college scholarship and doesn't use it the right way.

The NCAA needs to change the rules on scholarships. If they give a kid a scholarship and he only stays for 1 year then the school cannot give out his scholarship until the year after his supposed graduation (4 yrs). If a player doesn't graduate after 5 year (redshirt, injury...) then the school loses that scholarship for an additional year. This would make a lot of schools think about who they are recruiting. If you gamble on a kid that isn't there for education then you may be paying for it. Then we get kids that are interested in school as a STUDENT-athlete. I get so tired of hearing how low the graduation rates are amoung the NCAA bball teams.

PacerMan
04-12-2005, 04:07 PM
Just imagine what a farm system could have done for the Pacers & Bender. He could have gone & played some actual games vs. actual competition when the scoreboard counts.

He would have either:

A. Proven that he definately had potential & deserved the salary extension he was given.
B. Shown that this is a guy who was a gifted athelete but had a very limited basketball knowledge so they would let the market dictate his value & if it was what they thought was fair they would match & if not they would let him go.
C. Decide that this guy was as tough as tissue, limited basketball I.Q. & had little to no heart so they would just have let him walk.

But instead we have the limbo we have right now.

For those of you that are sick of me using Bender as an example then take out poor little Jon & insert the name Jamison, James or whoever else you want.

Actually here is an ironic little note. How bad would it have been for the Commish to have suspended Ron Artest from the N.B.A. for 30 games & then relagate him to the farm team for the rest of the season?


But you are forgetting the real reason the NBA doesn't want a minor league. The MILLIONS they would have to pay to support it.
Nothing is free.

indygeezer
04-12-2005, 04:24 PM
Again, I think you are missing the argument slightly. You are arguing that since the age limit won't affect the racial make up of the league's players, it isn't racist. That would only be a response to someone arguing that the implimentation of the age limit was racist. But thats not what those arguing racism are saying.

They are arguing that the grounds behind the age limit, not the actual carrying it out, is racism. They admit that generally the same players will be getting into the league and thus the racial make up of the league's players will stay the same. They ARE arguing however, that the reason the owners want an age limit is because the under 20 players they are paying are either not intelligent enough to be allowed to determine their own lives and make an intelligent choice of whether to join the NBA (NFL) or not, or that those players who wash out are helpless after they leave the NBA(NFL) and need help before they enter for when they will eventually be out of the league. They argue that no one is looking to "help" the under 20 MLB'ers (NHL'ers) in the same way and that the only discernable difference between the two groups is that the under 20 NBA'ers (NFL'ers) are black while the under 20 MLB'ers (NHL'ers) are white.

The difference isn't those who would be in the NBA with and with out an age limit but who is getting "arbitrary" age limits, black athletes vs white athletes. Whether you agree with either side is up to you, but I think the above arguments represent the basic racism argument in this case.

I guess the only arguement I have left here is that there are under 20's blacks and Hispanics in baseball too, it isn't as tho baseball is as white as hockey (is that even in consideration here???) Does hockey count as an American sport?? The Hockey system came up thru Canada and the Jr. league systems there. Be that as it may...I honestly don't believe there is any racial motivation here at all or you would be seeing much more effort put into scouting the small colleges and there would be an even greater number of Euros making teams.
I still feel much of the reasoning here is that we got whupped in international play and the illusion of NBA dominance was dispelled. If we were still beating the World teams, we'd have no talk of poor quality of play in the NBA and age would not be discussed at all.

Peck
04-12-2005, 04:55 PM
This may be a little off topic of the thread but I think that college programs should be accountable for who they recruit. I have no problem with someone going straight to the NBA or NBDL. I have more of a problem with someone who takes a college scholarship and doesn't use it the right way.

The NCAA needs to change the rules on scholarships. If they give a kid a scholarship and he only stays for 1 year then the school cannot give out his scholarship until the year after his supposed graduation (4 yrs). If a player doesn't graduate after 5 year (redshirt, injury...) then the school loses that scholarship for an additional year. This would make a lot of schools think about who they are recruiting. If you gamble on a kid that isn't there for education then you may be paying for it. Then we get kids that are interested in school as a STUDENT-athlete. I get so tired of hearing how low the graduation rates are amoung the NCAA bball teams.

I agree with everything you just said.

FiestyFosterFanatic
04-12-2005, 05:21 PM
Jermaine is becoming one of my least favorite Pacers on this team. All his comments are stupid. Think about your comments Jermaine, that is why the NBA is wanting you to go to college, so you aren't a freakin dumba ss (and that's not a racist comment)

Hoop
04-12-2005, 05:55 PM
Jermaine is becoming one of my least favorite Pacers on this team. All his comments are stupid. Think about your comments Jermaine, that is why the NBA is wanting you to go to college, so you aren't a freakin dumba ss (and that's not a racist comment)
I totally disagree, JO is one of the most well spoken guys in the entire NBA. He does not ever come across as dumb, he most always seems thoughtful and intelligent IMO. Whether he is right or wrong on the racist comment matters not, he simply said what he felt.

indygeezer
04-12-2005, 06:00 PM
I agree with everything you just said.



ME TOO!!

canyoufeelit
04-12-2005, 06:05 PM
Fool, great stuff. Whenever you're active around here it seems the intelligence level skyrockets.

grace
04-12-2005, 06:15 PM
NHL and MLB draft 18 year olds all the time. Golfers can go pro at 18. Tennis players are pro as young as 13. These sports are primarily white (MLB is more white/latino). Is it coincidence that no one talks about not allowing these players to play until they are 20 or 21?

The only other sport with age limits is the NFL, which is more black than white. Coincidence?

I stopped reading the thread here so if someone has already pointed out the following sorry for repeating it.

The NHL and MLB both have minor league teams. Ever heard of the Indianapolis Ice and the Indianapolis Indians?

Yes, golfers and tennis players can go pro. The difference with them is they have to play well or they don't get paid.

I can see Jermaine's point about if you can go fight in a war you should be able to play in the NBA, but if he really said it's a race issue IMO he's dumber than :censored:. Lots of professions have stipulations on what education, experience, etc. a person has to have before they'll hire someone. Those stipulations are put into place to make the business a more competative and profitable organization.

I happen to think there should be an age limit. If a player doesn't want to go to college then he can play in a development league or go to Europe.

ABADays
04-13-2005, 09:29 AM
Wow - a lot of great comments so I will just briefly touch on a few.

MLB salaries. Major League Baseball teams carry a 40-man roster. The rosters are restricted to 25 players through the season until the September 1 call-up. Those players on the 40-man roster must make the major league minimum no matter where they play. Doesn't matter if it's AAA, AA, A or Rookie. If you are assigned to the 40-man roster you get major league pay. The rest of the minor league players do get very low pay.

I do agree with the minor league system in all sports. In fact, I would like to take it to another level. I would like to see a percentage of those guys in a USA National Team pool. This pool would be working together continuously to represent the US in international tournaments. There is no reason, in my mind, for a kid to take a scholarship away from a derserving athlete to play one or two years in college.

NBA and the NFL. It was pointed out there are a lot of players who "need" to go pro to take care of their families. I can't remember the last time a guy went straight from high school to the NFL. I'm certain there are many high school football players who have the same "hardships" as potential NBA players. Yet, there is not the same outcry. Trust me, having worked in baseball there are far more needy latino players and families than you could ever imagine.

It's age - not race. No less discriminatory. I truly believe if anyone is asked to fight for their country they deserve the same freedom of movement as everyone else.

JO's comments. I must have missed something. It appeared to me he was talking more about age than anything. HOWEVER, if race was the jist of his comment, then he along with a ton of other players really need to get educated about the history of minorities in this country. I'm sure there are a lot of old-timers on this board who could tell you first hand about racism back in the day that most of you wouldn't even believe. Just a small example. When I was a lot younger - A LOT YOUNGER - I would go places and not understand why there were white and black drinking fountains and restrooms. It didn't make sense to me. Small, but obviously made a lasting impression on me throughout my life. If you ever read books about Jackie Robinson or Buck O'Neil you see things that don't even remotely exist now. Does prejudice exist? Sure it does - for all ethnicities. But a lot of today's players would benefit from sitting down with their grandparents to get a real understanding of what their world was like.

I suppose I am a person who feels like if I haven't had the opportunity to walk in their shoes I am not totally educated.

bread
04-13-2005, 11:11 AM
If they are going to make a change they should do it like MLB does.


A player can be drafted right out of HS. If he's not or if he decides to go to college to improve his stock then he can not be eligible for the draft again until after, I believe, his junior year. If you are a no-brainer that's obviously good enough to play right out of HS (i.e. Kobe, KG, LeBron) then you will. If you choose to go to college then you have to play at least 3 years and therefore will not screw the school by leaving after only one year. Of course this would all be predicated on the caveat that the player can not hire an agent if they want to retain amatuer status. The others that decide to try the NBA out of HS and fail... welcome to the (enter the lower league of your choice).

There have been just as many busts out of college as there have been out of HS so personally I don't see the problem with drafting high schoolers. Although I would like to see the ones that actually go to college stay for more than one year so it doesn't handcuff the school and also lets the fans (pro and college) become more familiar with them and therefore make them more marketable as pros. Plus they are much more polished physically and socially.

Ragnar
04-13-2005, 11:40 AM
The easiest answer to all of this is a real & true farm system.

If a player is not ready for the big time then he can be sent down to the farm league where he can develop away from the light of the fans but well under the control of the team.

That way a player can play when he is ready no matter what his age is. If he's ready at 18 then he can play right now. If he needs a couple of seasons then away to the NBDL he goes.

Man I would LOVE to have a minor league Pacer team with James Jones, David Harrison and maybe Bender on it. (well not this year mind you) Talk about getting people in other parts of the state involved. If the people in Fort Wayne had a Fort Wayne Pacers with the young up and comers they would watch those guys once they made the main team.

I think the answer to the minor league system would be to have it be only a half a season. That way your younger players would get playing time but still be available to the team for a post all star break push. Have the championship game for the minor league be at the all star festivities. Replace that absurd skills challenge with a game that matters and I think you would get more people watching.

indygeezer
04-13-2005, 12:43 PM
I heard a really interesting solution on the radio yesterday (FOX sports I think)

Do away with gauranteed rookie contracts. Make em prove their worth before the gaurantee kicks in (year 3-4??) That would make the marginal players think about what they are doing before commiting to the NBA. It would also allow the GM's an escape from a bad choice.


BTW....thanks for reminding me of the 40 player part of the MLB contract, I forgot that part.

Kegboy
04-13-2005, 05:13 PM
But why force college on players who have zero desire to be there. IMO, it cheapens everything. The N.B.A. should not be there to benefit major college basketball & vice versa.

I know I am in the vast minority on this but I just believe that a student athlete should be just that. Not a person who is killing time till the N.B.A. starts.

A farm system is the only true answer.

Actually if you want my opinion on this I think it's a lot of talk about nothing because like all things, given time, it usually self corrects. I think the upcoming draft will see more U.S. college players than last year did.

I think G.M.'s will not automatically go for high schooler anymore. Yes, the following season the H.S. kid from Indy will go # 1 but don't be sure that it will always go that way.

I guess I'm with J.O. on this when it comes to an age limit.

I really don't get when you guys are saying that there should be an experiance rule. Does that mean you have to have a 4 year degree in basketball? What if you don't start any of the 4 years but 1, is that enough experiance?

Does it have to be a division 1 school? Does this eleminate foriegn players who dont' attend U.S. schools?

What the hell does going to college have to do with playing in the N.B.A. other than the old "that's the way it has always been done" theory.

The N.B.D.L. is the answer. Players that can play will play, those that can't won't.

I completely agree with everything Peck says here. Therefore, I'm off to shoot myself. :suicide:


:devil:

Kegboy
04-13-2005, 05:19 PM
If they are going to make a change they should do it like MLB does.


A player can be drafted right out of HS. If he's not or if he decides to go to college to improve his stock then he can not be eligible for the draft again until after, I believe, his junior year. If you are a no-brainer that's obviously good enough to play right out of HS (i.e. Kobe, KG, LeBron) then you will. If you choose to go to college then you have to play at least 3 years and therefore will not screw the school by leaving after only one year. Of course this would all be predicated on the caveat that the player can not hire an agent if they want to retain amatuer status. The others that decide to try the NBA out of HS and fail... welcome to the (enter the lower league of your choice).

There have been just as many busts out of college as there have been out of HS so personally I don't see the problem with drafting high schoolers. Although I would like to see the ones that actually go to college stay for more than one year so it doesn't handcuff the school and also lets the fans (pro and college) become more familiar with them and therefore make them more marketable as pros. Plus they are much more polished physically and socially.

More very good points I was going to make.

Kegboy
04-13-2005, 05:58 PM
Sorry for being late to the discussion. Peck and bread above covered a lot of what I wanted to say. To sum up:

Age discrimination is the issue, not race. However, Jermaine does make a good point in asking why the outcry in a black-dominated sport as opposed to white/latino-dominated. However, as has been pointed out, what separates the two is a farm system, but it goes beyond that.

The NBA and the NCAA have had a good thing going for a long time. Since the NBA didn't have a farm system in place, all the best players went to college, which turned NCAA Basketball into a billion dollar industry. But college is about getting an education, not dunking. Therefore, limits were put on players with poor test scores (Prop. 48 to be specific, which meant a student had to sit out his freshman year and "prove" he could handle a college education, getting a sufficient GPA before being allowed to start playing the next year.)

As I remember, Kevin Garnett would have been prop 48. So, he went pro, which slowly lead to the mass exodus of "blue-chip" HS'ers. The NCAA suffered, since their product was degraded by lack of talent, and the NBA suffered, due to not having the infrastructure in place to teach fundamentals (a job the NCAA for the most part excels at), and due to the anonimity of new players not hyped by the NCAA marketing machine.

To remedy this, the knee-jerk reaction is to follow the NFL model and impose an age limit. However, that's not the answer. Football is above all else a physical, full contact sport, where speed and agility can only get you so far if you're body isn't built to take a pounding. Basketball, while needing a certain degree of athleticism, is more forgiving. The NFL reasons their age limit is purely a function of physicality, i.e. no 18 year old can take the pounding of the NFL. The NBA is a different animal. A teenager can not only get by, but dominate (LeBron James, Amare Stoudemire, Yao Ming, etc.)

No, the issue with the NBA is not a factor of physicality. It has been widely reported that Gregg Oden could have played pro at 16, just like LeBron James before him, because they had matured physically to the point that they could handle the rigors of an NBA season. To my knowledge, no one has made the same claim of a football player. Maurice Clarett claimed he could at 19, but all signs point to him not succeeding at 21.

So, perhaps, if physicality is not the reasoning for an age limit, perhaps it's experience? Hardly. Michael Olowakandi went to college for 4 years, and has proven over a 6 year career to be less fundamentally sound than a turnip, let alone Amare Stoudemire his rookie year.

How about maturity, then? Please. When has a college degree kept anyone, let alone an NBA player, from falling victim to gambling, alcohol, drugs, or sexual predators?

No, the real heart of the issue is the NBA wants to have its cake and eat it too. While Stern is trying to create a real farm system with the NBDL (for you newbies, I asked him about this last year), it is still better for players to go through the college system, because it is more established and creates more marketability. Why else do you think he put a 20 year old age limit in the NBDL bylaws?

I've got to run to the game, but if I remember I want to talk about what Wilbon said about this on PTI. His reasoning, which I think is a good point, is an age limit will help turn the tide against the basketball mentality of today's African American youth, who pays no attention to education because they're convinced they'll make it as a pro, when of course, 99.999999...% don't.

grace
04-13-2005, 06:16 PM
I'm leaving for the game, but let me say one thing. I had no desire to go to college, but I did because I had to to get the job I wanted. I had to go to college because I wasn't born a tall man with mad basketball skills. Where's the justice in that?

Los Angeles
04-14-2005, 02:07 PM
Wow. Good article.

Hicks
04-14-2005, 02:12 PM
So by that logic, if a rule happens to affect mostly just one race, it's automatically being implimented BECAUSE of that? Riiiiight. Anything's possible, but that's a leap in logic.

Stryder
04-14-2005, 02:21 PM
I'm leaving for the game, but let me say one thing. I had no desire to go to college, but I did because I had to to get the job I wanted. I had to go to college because I wasn't born a tall man with mad basketball skills. Where's the justice in that?

All people are not born equal.

Los Angeles
04-14-2005, 03:11 PM
So by that logic, if a rule happens to affect mostly just one race, it's automatically being implimented BECAUSE of that? Riiiiight. Anything's possible, but that's a leap in logic.
I don't think anyone said that.

Let's say that I want to dam up a river to make a power station that will power a nearby town and make me lots of money.

In doing so, I will flood a Native American reservation.

Let's assume that in this situation, I'm motivated by greed, and the needs of the town, not by hatred towards Native Americans.

If you were living on that reservation, you'd still question why only people on the reservation get the down-side of this plan. In this case, the plan is not implimented BECAUSE of racism, but the RESULT of my plan could still be considered discriminatory.

Get it?

bread
04-14-2005, 03:44 PM
Great analogy LA.

ABADays
04-14-2005, 04:37 PM
Pretty smart guy this Los Angeles.

Anthem
04-14-2005, 04:45 PM
Yup, excellent analogy. And excellent article.

And I still think the farm system would fix this. But nobody's been willing to say that, because it would hurt the NCAA.

Screw the NCAA.

Los Angeles
04-14-2005, 04:47 PM
Pretty smart guy this Los Angeles.
Only on the second Thursday of every month (provided I keep my cell phone out of the bathroom.)





:)

ABADays
04-14-2005, 04:49 PM
LA!!!!! Celebrating his 1,000th post!

Los Angeles
04-14-2005, 04:53 PM
Yup, excellent analogy. And excellent article.

And I still think the farm system would fix this. But nobody's been willing to say that, because it would hurt the NCAA.

Screw the NCAA.
That's exactly it.

The NCAA gets next-to-free labor (there's another word for that) out of top athletes and get rewarded with BILLIONS of dollars in tickets, merch and ad money. Football and basketball are thier lifeblood. If they actually had to pay thier athletes what they are worth I think they would still make money, just not as much. (There's a word for that, too).

Uh oh, I came close to saying it. I better go. :zip:

Los Angeles
04-14-2005, 04:55 PM
LA!!!!! Celebrating his 1,000th post!
I didn't even notice!

So what now?

*looks around with confused expression*

SoupIsGood
04-14-2005, 04:58 PM
I didn't even notice!

So what now?

*looks around with confused expression*

I believe you get 1,000 spankings from Btown...

Los Angeles
04-14-2005, 04:59 PM
I believe you get 1,000 spankings from Btown...
:whip2:

:cry:

Hicks
04-14-2005, 05:55 PM
I don't think anyone said that.

Let's say that I want to dam up a river to make a power station that will power a nearby town and make me lots of money.

In doing so, I will flood a Native American reservation.

Let's assume that in this situation, I'm motivated by greed, and the needs of the town, not by hatred towards Native Americans.

If you were living on that reservation, you'd still question why only people on the reservation get the down-side of this plan. In this case, the plan is not implimented BECAUSE of racism, but the RESULT of my plan could still be considered discriminatory.

Get it?

Yeah. That is a good analogy. I don't believe there are any racial undertones here (I think the fact that most HSers are black is just reality, nothing more/less), but I can see why someone of the race in question might go there. But I still think they're wrong.

Hicks
04-14-2005, 05:57 PM
Also, I COMPLETELY agree that the solution is a farm system. That would be fantastic for many reasons, not to mention it would solve this HS problem because if they initially "suck" and aren't ready for the spotlight or whatever, you can put them in the "minors" so they can get playing time while the "grown ups" can continue playing in the "majors".

sweabs
04-14-2005, 06:52 PM
Yeah. That is a good analogy. I don't believe there are any racial undertones here (I think the fact that most HSers are black is just reality, nothing more/less), but I can see why someone of the race in question might go there. But I still think they're wrong.

I think JO is wrong if he's implying that Stern's main reason for implementing an age limit is race related.

However, I can see where he is coming from. If you look up here in Canada, we have kids leaving home at the age of 14 to go play in Junior hockey leagues. You have kids in the Domincan at the age of 16 doing similar things for baseball. Perhaps it is a cultural thing?

3ptmiller
04-14-2005, 07:20 PM
JERMAINE, You should listen to uncle Reggie ..



O'Neal thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement. "In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has a been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said.
Yes Mr Oneal, but what happened to other Rookies in the league? Why do i see the rest of Hundreds of Rookies sitting in the bench for a couple of years?


"As a black guy, you kind of think that's the reason why it's coming up.
What does Race got to with it? I still dont understand..


You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey.
In Baseball you dont have to have a grown up Mind and grown up Physical body.. nobody will HIT you, its not a Physical sport, there are no fouls, there are almost no Injurys, u just need to be skilled in baseball nothing else..
In Hockey you have loads of Protection, even a car can drive over you without the player taking so much damage, you dont get at top 6 fouls in hockey, you get 1 foul and you are fouled out for some minutes..
In Basketball you must already have a NBA mind and body, Injurys occure 24/7, its one of the most physical games.. most of young players knows only to play BasketBall, they didnt learned how to take care of their body!


To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?"
In the army you get a weapon even if you are 5 feet tall and you shoot down 7 foot Talibans with ease.. in NBA you dont have a weapon, and a 7 footer will just crush your young and weak body and the next day you will look like if a train hit you, now im not saying that ALL young players are like this, but 60-70% of them Are!


I have no desire to have a race debate. God views men as either good or bad by what they do, not their color, so why should we be different?
Another racial thingy, still dont understand what Race got to do with it?


Now this is what Reggie would say people and i think he is correct.. not only what i would say.. just wanted to proove that Jermaine is a little bit wrong.
You agree with Reggie or Jermaine?

3ptmiller
04-14-2005, 07:28 PM
I don't think Reggie would say a single thing you just claimed he would.....

:shrug:

Hehe yea, but i got this source from Inside NBA nr. 43 magazine from year 1995, i remember he interviewed back then and they asked him exactly the same question about age... and there is 1 page Reggie talking about this matter he pretty much said he was against it.. and he was asked about this on Tv Daily Show, he said there not much accept that he was still against it

Anthem
04-14-2005, 08:21 PM
95 was a different world in terms of the straight-to-the-NBA phenomenom.

3ptmiller
04-14-2005, 10:14 PM
On the subject of Jermaine O'Neal's comments on an NBA age restriction, Reggie thinks players would be better served going to college first and he disagrees with the views of his teammate. The Dan Patrick Show

Anthem
04-14-2005, 10:15 PM
My mistake, then.

Here's a pretty decent article...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpYTg2ZTBwBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwN0 bQ--?slug=dw-agelimit041305&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

3ptmiller
04-14-2005, 10:16 PM
My mistake, then.

Here's a pretty decent article...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpYTg2ZTBwBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwN0 bQ--?slug=dw-agelimit041305&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

yea very interesting, thx m8

3ptmiller
04-14-2005, 10:18 PM
Almost any older player would say exactly that.

Why?

The high schoolers are taking their jobs (cue South Park).......

They must be jelous of young kids like Lebron James coming in and kicking their asses :D

blanket
04-15-2005, 12:46 PM
didn't notice this posted already...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/050414&num=0
By Scoop Jackson
Page 2


Let's say there was no color issue; let's say everyone in America was green. Green like the dollar bill. Green with envy.


Now let's say there's a group of people, all green, all American, standing at a bus stop on their way to work. The bus pulls up, driver opens the door and the bus driver says, "Good morning everyone! You all know the drill ... dark green people to the back, light green people sit in the front."

At some point we all knew it would come to this. But it didn't have to come to this. The "R." Racism. The word. Groundhogged it's ugly little head again. This time out of the mouth of Jermaine O'Neal. His words inexact: "Racism is part of the NBA's [David Stern's] reason to implement an age restriction on entering the league." I'm paraphrasing. But the point is out. And once out, it stays out, like the cork on the Verve Cliquot.


Somewhere in Toronto, outside the U.S., Jermaine O'Neal got caught off guard, and caught up. Someone asked him a question. An American question. Unparaphrasing. "Is it because you guys are black that the league is trying to put an age limit on the draft?"


The question demanded an answer. A real one. Not one of those scripted, toeing-the-company-line responses. So Jermaine gave the Charles Barkley answer. The Isiah Thomas and Dennis Rodman-on-Larry Bird answer. He gave the answer that many needed to hear, but hundreds were afraid to say. For lack of misunderstanding and misquotes, O'Neal basically called David Stern's intent to mandate an age requirement for induction into the NBA race related.


Then came the drama.


Everyone from Stephen A. to Mike & Mike in the Morning found a way to disagree with O'Neal's comment and assessment.


"Racism in the NBA?" you could hear them say. "Never. That's un-American."

Most didn't understand where O'Neal was coming from straight felt that he is more than off base with his opinion. They voiced through phone calls on talk radio that he is dead wrong. One even went so far as to call his comment "stupid." Not necessarily a reflection of O'Neal the person ... but damn.


Let's define stupid. Stupid is Barry Bonds still working out with Greg Anderson. Stupid is Mike Tyson still fighting for a title shot. Stupid is the Lakers not getting at least one All-Star in return for Shaq.


An NBA superstar finding something racially motivated when the principals involved are specifically of one race? That's conscious. And in an era when apathy runs through the DNA of black athletes everywhere, the fact that one would even pose the question should get him Nobel Prize recognition.


Dr. King often said, "A man that doesn't stand for something will fall for anything." And while no one is saying Jermaine O'Neal is the MLK of the NBA, his wherewithal to approach the subject should be appreciated more than anything, if not applauded.


Even if he's wrong.


The problem is ... he isn't.


*****


To know him, you'd understand. He's very soft-spoken, quiet, almost humble at all times. But he doesn't shy away from two things: the truth, and what he believes. He asks questions. That's what we sometimes don't see or hear. We jump to conclusions, when really he's simply a young man asking the world questions questions that he'd love to have answered.


Months ago, he asked this one: "What Would You Do?" He asked the question in response to the situation that got him suspended for a third of the NBA season. He never said he was right. He never backed away from his actions. But he did ask us, asked anyone who wasn't him at that particular moment in the Palace at Auburn Hills last November, to put ourselves in his Shox there, to see the situation from his vantage point, to process the scene in our minds. And then ask ourselves ... what would we do?


He sits in a chair, relaxed. Button-up game tight, white MLB cap to the back, smile hidden. He allowed NBA Nation into his house. Confronting the issue head on. This is what he does for a living, besides play ball. He asked a question.


"What's the debate about?" he said inside a mini-media interrogation. "I just want to understand better why an age limit is coming up. That's all.


"I'm not playing the race card, I'm not calling anybody a racist. I'm just talking about the facts. The product and economic reasons can't be the reason, because the league is doing well and the prime faces of the NBA are of high-school players. So why are they trying to change that? It doesn't make sense to me."

Questions.


"It's not about race," he said to Matt Winer, as his former Portland Trail Blazers mentor Greg Anthony listened in (and, at times, tried to clarify the situation for O'Neal). "This is about an opportunity at life. We're talking about transition young black athletes making a successful transition. It's been going on for 30 years. I just want to know why."


Why the change? Why fix something that ain't broke? Why mess with these kids' opportunity for a better life when the demand is high and they own the supply? Why, when Freddy Adu in the MLS just signed on last year at age 14? Why now?


The fact is that while 76 percent of the players in the NBA are black, almost 100 percent of the players who will be affected by the "delayed entry program" will be black. And more than color or race, economics is at the core of this. Nearly all of the players who make themselves eligible for the NBA draft directly out of high school do so to immediately better their family's financial situation. And now, all of a sudden, with nothing concrete at which to point that says "players under the age of 20 have been bad for professional basketball," a decision is going to be made on their behalf that will directly change the course of their lives?


O'Neal is one of the success stories of the rule that's about to be changed. He went straight from Eau Claire High School in South Carolina to the NBA. Yet when he asks the question "Why?" America seems to have a problem with it because of his injection of color into an equation that was all black to begin with.


If you were David Stern, what would you do?


A radio host in LA said of "the Jermaine O'Neal ordeal," every time you bring race or color into the conversation, another component appears.


One that most white Americans don't want to face. One that most blacks don't want to relive.


But does that mean it doesn't exist?


Ric Bucher said there exists a "resentment toward younger players" in the league, but that it's "generational, not racial."


Ric Bucher is white. Ric Bucher is right.


But when it comes to amateur basketball players under the age of 20 making themselves available to be drafted into the association, there's only one generation that counts. And inside that generational box, the color is no longer coded. It's specific.


How many white basketball players have entered the NBA draft out of a U.S. high school? One. His name: Rob Swift.


How many European/foreign basketball players have entered the NBA draft out of high school without professional experience? None. Even if they're younger than 20, they can play professionally in Europe before entering the NBA, like Darko Milicic (who was 18 his rookie season).


Ever since Kevin Garnett re-broke the rules in 1995, every basketball player under the age of 20 without professional or college experience (outside of Mr. Swift) who has come into the L has been black. All the young kids who have listened to the people around them (including NBA scouts and GMs) telling them they can make the "jump" and who then jumped, have been black. All of the ballers who have used the NBA as an economic refuge, eliminating drastic below-poverty-level situations the minute they became eligible to vote or join the army, have been black.


Recognize a theme? A color scheme?


It is not race at the base of Stern's quest to install an age limitation for entrance into the game, but it is race at the base of who that rule will directly affect. And that's the "fact" that Jermaine O'Neal is ultimately trying to get at. Yes, the players union wants to protect the 10-year vets who have been losing roster spots to these young studs in the way that seasoned actors are losing roles to rappers in Hollywood. But why keep the young brothas from that opportunity when no one is "holding a .45 to the head of these owners and GMs making them draft these kids."


He made a suggestion by answering a question. In the end, all he said he wanted was an answer. But in America, when someone like him, like Jermaine (or Kobe, or KG, or Amare, or McGrady, or LeBron) who's been through the fire, says they feel that there might be racial "undertones" in the decision to cap the age limit on coming into the league and no one wants to listen it suggests that there are bigger problems than the one O'Neal is suggesting.


The fact that Jermaine O'Neal made the "suggestion" that race might be an element, a component in the decision to advance the age requirement, is not stupid, is not unwarranted, is not racist. Given that the law will only affect people of Jermaine's color, his answer to someone's question isn't stupid, ignorant or asinine.


It's justified.


But we live in America. Home of the free, land of opportunity. A country where they want to shift the age limit for someone to be able to make millions, but not the age limit to be able to die for it.


And just because the overwhelming majority of the people the new rule would affect are of one color ... well, in America, what's racist about that?


I'm only asking a question. Get it?


Scoop Jackson is an award-winning journalist who has covered sports and culture for more than 15 years. He is a former editor of Slam, XXL, Hoop and Inside Stuff magazines; and the author of "Sole Provider: 30 Years of NIKE Basketball," "Battlegrounds: America's Street Poets Called Ballers" and "LeBron James: the Chambers of Fear." He resides in Chicago with his wife and two kids. You can e-mail Scoop here.

Los Angeles
04-15-2005, 12:49 PM
See post #63.

Anthem
04-16-2005, 08:34 PM
This was pretty good, by Burns:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBqam1ocWIyBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwNl Y2w-?slug=cnnsi-latebloomers&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

E-mail Question of the Week

What do you think of Jermaine O'Neal's comments that the NBA's plan to implement a minimum age rule is racist? -- C. Dickey, Valparaiso, Ind.

I think O'Neal got it partly right. There does seem to be a racist component to the debate -- at least in terms of the public clamor over the need for an age limit. As he points out, nobody gets upset about all the teenage hockey players, tennis players and figure skaters who don't go to college. Why should young African-American kids be denied the same opportunity to chase their dreams?

But the NBA (unlike some of the public) isn't being racist here. It's simply trying to put the best product on the floor for all those folks paying $100 a ticket. The fact is teams are drafting a lot of young kids not because they can play now, but for their potential three or four years down the road. With only 12 spots on each roster, that means less quality on the bench for the present. As long as a minimum-age rule comes with the blessing of the players association, through the collective bargaining process, the NBA has a right to do it.

Move We'd Like to See

More players speak up like Jermaine O'Neal

Whether you agree with O'Neal or not, it is refreshing to see a star player speak up about a social issue he cares about. One of the unfortunate developments of our PR-obsessed sports culture now is that so few players are willing to say anything that might risk hurting their endorsement potential. The days of outspoken voices like Bill Russell or Muhammad Ali challenging our views and igniting debates about important social issues seemingly have gone the way of Chuck Taylors. Here's hoping O'Neal won't hesitate to speak up again -- and that more will follow his lead.

PacerMan
04-16-2005, 09:24 PM
Man I would LOVE to have a minor league Pacer team with James Jones, David Harrison and maybe Bender on it. (well not this year mind you) Talk about getting people in other parts of the state involved. If the people in Fort Wayne had a Fort Wayne Pacers with the young up and comers they would watch those guys once they made the main team.

I think the answer to the minor league system would be to have it be only a half a season. That way your younger players would get playing time but still be available to the team for a post all star break push. Have the championship game for the minor league be at the all star festivities. Replace that absurd skills challenge with a game that matters and I think you would get more people watching.

CBA owners let Isaih buy the league BECAUSE he said 'his connections' would enable him to sell the league to the NBA as it's minor league.
THE NBA WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Lord Helmet
04-16-2005, 09:33 PM
On Friday, I think, I saw the O'neal comment make news on Jim Rome. It was in the fan reaction part, some fan e-mailed Jim and, he basically called Jermaine ignnorant. And, I thought Jim was going to agree, but Jim dissed the fan and said Jermaine is one of the leagues better person and he said that Jermaine is a very smart guy.

Hicks
04-17-2005, 01:06 PM
On Channel 13 this morning they were talking to him after practice. When he mentioned someone was saying he brought out the race card, his response was "He's racist." :unhappy:

Gee, thanks Jermaine. I love that he's made such an ignorant statement that also apparently includes me since that's exactly what it looked like he was doing to me (using the race card) when his first quotes came out.

This sucks. I really like Jermaine, but I feel a bit of the sting from that bull**** he just spewed. I want to just shake it off, but when someone you think highly of insinuates you're a racist..... :shakehead :suicide:

[/disappointed]