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able
04-09-2005, 07:19 AM
I am bewildered here, I asked for a few people (3 - 5 ) to set up a "bit-torrent" system for the games, I have had 1 reaction.

there are on average 60 -75 people downloading each and every game from my servers, resulting this month in an additional bill for bandwidth of a pleasurable $ 1,100.00

Yet all kinds of people ask me for access to the site, claiming they live all over the world while using comcast or ATT ip's.

If this is how it must be, then I will lock the site down even further, and only hand out access to at most 10 - 15 people, as far as I'm concerned I am willing to pay a small price for being myself able to see the games, but that price does not exceed season ticket prices for the games at Conseco and the current price clearly does that. (wonder where I would be sitting for about $ 10 K a season, can't be to shabby!)

It is quite simple, I will as of now, further filter the access list, meaning that only a very smal number will get access and the rest? sorry, you're back to basics.

If it is impossible to do it with a group effort then so be it, if people will stop recording because I do not distribute freely, then I understand that as well, and will learn to live with it, I simply can not afford this rate of support.

I had a nice job this month giving me a reasonable profit and was already planning to go to Indy from the 20th till the 26th should we have homecourt, or for the last game of Reggie only and watch the 2 playoff games in Boston or Chi town.
Scratch that one too.

To say I'm dissapointed by this lack of "help" is an understatement.

DEEman
04-09-2005, 07:41 AM
Im going to ask a friend of mine, who is a webdeveloper, if he knows a way how to make a system like that ok. And if he is willing to put some time in it to realise it

Buddhaboy
04-09-2005, 08:23 AM
Able

I'd be glad to put a couple of files up on bit torrent. My only limitation would be the size of the files since I can only spare about 15-20 gigs of drive space.

Let me know how I can help!

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 09:30 AM
Able I have spoken with at least one other person who will help. I think the thread you asked about it in dropped too fast. Its needed bumped but we can use this one.

So for everyone else.

Here is the deal. Able is carrying too much of the load. He should not have to spend a bunch of money so you can watch the Pacer games. So we are going to bit torrent. Since some of you asking for access have cable modems we expect you to help with the bit torrents. IM either myself or Able we will set it up so that 4 or 5 people have the file to begin with then we will post the torrent so everyone else can get it.

If we dont get any help Able will be the only one who gets to watch them. I am not going to punish him by stopping the upload of the games because no one would help out.

DEEman
04-09-2005, 09:53 AM
I have ADSL, but with enough up and downloading speed to be useful.

What do i have to do to help?

(i can stay online for a lot of hours p/day)

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 10:02 AM
Thats what we need. People who can leavce their connection on and help other people see the game.

Here in the states we get unlimited bandwidth. Able is paying by the megabit and that just sucks considering how much is being downloaded. We started this when the Pacers were not winning all that often. Now that they are winning on a regular basis the load he is carrying is outrageous.

BigMac
04-09-2005, 10:06 AM
I am confused. I wish I could help but I don't use the link to watch Pacers games (as I live locally and Tivo them all) but I still wish I could help. I don't know of anything you guys speak but if I can help, I will but I don't know how I can?

DEEman
04-09-2005, 10:09 AM
Thats what we need. People who can leavce their connection on and help other people see the game.

Here in the states we get unlimited bandwidth. Able is paying by the megabit and that just sucks considering how much is being downloaded. We started this when the Pacers were not winning all that often. Now that they are winning on a regular basis the load he is carrying is outrageous.
I have an unlimited uploading/downloading connection and i have also absolutely no problem with staying online the whole day

PacerMan
04-09-2005, 11:18 AM
I know aboslutely nothing about this. Or about being able to see games???????? Live?
I do have a cable connection as well, but probably for not much longer. ( a month or so)
Am I understanding that you are paying that out of your pocket??? (personal money??)
DAMN!!
What do you need?

3ptmiller
04-09-2005, 11:26 AM
Or why not just forget everything guys and visit a Bit Torrent site with ALL NBA Basketball games? ---------> http://bt.davka.info/

LouisvilleLip
04-09-2005, 12:18 PM
I dont see why you need someone to set up there own bittorent thing when you can just upload them onto a site like torrentspy.

Anthem
04-09-2005, 12:29 PM
Here is the deal. Able is carrying too much of the load. He should not have to spend a bunch of money so you can watch the Pacer games. So we are going to bit torrent. Since some of you asking for access have cable modems we expect you to help with the bit torrents. IM either myself or Able we will set it up so that 4 or 5 people have the file to begin with then we will post the torrent so everyone else can get it.

I agree. Able, you've done more than anyone could ever expect of you. I'd have given up and gone to .torrent a while back. Ragnar hit the nail on the head... I never even saw the previous post. I'd have responded earlier if I had; please see my PM.

To everybody else, all we need is a few people with decent always-on connections and a bit of hard drive space. I'm going to be devoting about 40 gigs, but that's probably more than enough to last us through the rest of the playoffs.

Everybody needs to be willing to do your part. We have 500 freaking members here, this shouldn't be a problem.

sweabs
04-09-2005, 01:01 PM
I suppose I could help; although I have no idea what I'm volunteering for. Perhaps someone could run me through a tutorial of some sort.

As long as it isn't anything too time-consuming as of right now (until Apr.28 I am writing finals). After that, I'm in for the playoff stretch.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 01:17 PM
crap if those guys have every game we are wasting out time. we can just get them there. Are you sure every game is on that?

sweabs
04-09-2005, 01:24 PM
crap if those guys have every game we are wasting out time. we can just get them there. Are you sure every game is on that?

I don't see our game from last night VS Washington.

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 01:35 PM
Not yet they are a couple of days behind. But you would not see last nights game against washington from us untill tomorrow either.

Bball
04-09-2005, 01:38 PM
It would seem the thing to do is record the game and hold it a couple of days to see if it appears. That way there is a backup if it doesn't appear.

-Bball

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 01:53 PM
It would seem the thing to do is record the game and hold it a couple of days to see if it appears. That way there is a backup if it doesn't appear.

-Bball

Well I can still send them to able. If they appear then great he does not need to release it. If not then it is there to make available.

3pt how is the quality?

indygeezer
04-09-2005, 02:07 PM
Sorry able, widh I could help ya, but as you prolly can see I'm a dial-upper and really have nada knowledge of what you are speaking. But if I can help otherwise?????

PacerMan
04-09-2005, 02:09 PM
Would doing this open you up to all the viruses and adware trash that Kaaza is so prone to?

able
04-09-2005, 02:27 PM
the sole reason i have not yet moved to bt is that i hate to make people suseptive to whatever else is out there and the organizers easily traceable by f.i RIAA.

also the quality and "large" asian subtitles I have seen on this files, the traceability from these sites etc all make me very "anti"

henceforth I proposed to run our own bt scheme, where 1 can be superseed and then 3 or 5 people run the first seed after that it is depending on how long others leave their download open but it's my guess that leaving it open for say 24 horus after you downloaded the file is nothing to much to ask to eleviate the pain for others.

The pro's of our own bt is that A. the circle is small and B. the risk is therefore small C> the cost to each and everyone is very small.

also the files are known clean and fast, the first seeds available within 24 hours of the game.

few will have upload rights (so the site won't get conteminated) and only a few will have access to the very first seed, after that general load-balancing should take care of the distribution, which means I can "Lock" the files after a few days and save them for history and late requests.

I will run a test with a few once the setup is done tonight and then we will see where it goes from here, the "other" sites all of a sudden "popping" up havbe never been mentioned here, and the people mentioning them were asking for download passes, so there must be a catch somewhere :D

PacerMan
04-09-2005, 02:32 PM
Ok, I got BitComet and I'm downloading the Knicks game. Why am I uploading MORE than I've downloaded?????
ie: Downloaded 3.10 meg
Uploaded 4.22 meg ??????? What's it uploading.?
Are people getting it from me AS I'm in the process of downloading it myself?

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 02:35 PM
Plus we can go to a higher quality encode. I have kep the bit rate down because it takes 18 hours to upload on my puny connection. If we get a few people with high bandwidth cable modems we can go to a higher quality recording and that should make everyone happy.

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 02:35 PM
Ok, I got BitComet and I'm downloading the Knicks game. Why am I uploading MORE than I've downloaded?????
ie: Downloaded 3.10 meg
Uploaded 4.22 meg ??????? What's it uploading.?
Are people getting it from me AS I'm in the process of downloading it myself?

Yep thats how it works. As you download the game you are also sharing it with others.

PacerMan
04-09-2005, 02:45 PM
Ok, I got BitComet and I'm downloading the Knicks game. Why am I uploading MORE than I've downloaded?????
ie: Downloaded 3.10 meg
Uploaded 4.22 meg ??????? What's it uploading.?
Are people getting it from me AS I'm in the process of downloading it myself?

skyfire
04-09-2005, 02:50 PM
I agree that BT is the right way to go.

Making our BT files public is risky. Since this service was originally made available for PD members who didn't get tv coverage of the game it seems unnecessary to make it open to everyone on the web. The majority of the NBA BT sites that existed 3months ago are closed atm, only that davka one exists now.

I am currently sharing a monthly download cap with my housemate, so this limits the amount I am able to serve as a seed. As I have been a beneficiary of this service for a while now when i move house in 6weeks i'll endeavour to get a higher bandwidth connection to contribute to something that has given so much to me.

DEEman
04-09-2005, 02:57 PM
Since this service was originally made available for PD members who didn't get tv coverage of the game it seems unnecessary to make it open to everyone on the web.
Maybe we can put the torrents in a special topic, only to be viewed by (special)members. The same way as the xxxxxxxx topic.

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 04:25 PM
Here's my .2 cents.

1. Raw numbers would help. On your host, what is the download amount allowed before you start getting jacked price-wise? Is it possible that a different hosting plan could help in this dept. ? How many gigs did you transfer? As an example, on pair.com, a developer plan has 40gb a month transfer for $49 or 30gb for $29. (but this doesn't take hosting gigs of files into consideration) One thing that you could do is setup a paypal donation button where members could donate towards the cost of hosting and bandwidth. The buy in fee wouldn't be much if distributed - and that would allow you a certain amount of download size or access to the original bittorrent. Bittorrent is definitely the way to go with this whole thing.

2. I downloaded the Miami game via bittorrent and it was under 500mb.
3. I was able to download 1 quarter of the Detroit game via your site (before the lock down) and it was 400mb! That's huge. What compressor are you using? We could look into a better compressor and using a lower rate, which could save on overall size.
Compressor info and help can be found here: videohelp.com (excellent site)

The beauty of Bittorrent is that it breaks up a file into packets, and these packets are downloaded and shared by all at the same time, which means that it totally lightens the load on everyone. You can control how long you allow an upload after you're done downloading it - and you can monitor your upload mb amount. If everyone allowed the amount they download to be uploaded, then the system should balance itself out.

But regardless, a donation system would be good, and depending upon the amount of hosting and the amount you donate, it could grant one a different level of access, or none at all.

able
04-09-2005, 04:54 PM
uhh ok some numbers :)

20 games a month, avg size 1.2 Gb
50 ppl avg dll all games = 1.2 TB bandwidth :)

there are no hosting plans that I sell that allow that, and I am sure none of my collegues do :D

I have 100 Mb, but pay "penalty" rates when I use more then 15 Mb/s avg. that is about 4.8 TB
I can obviously renegotiate my deal and pay a higher base fee, but in all honesty, I normally don't use this much, the "overusage" over the past period (month) was 4 Mbp/s aka 1.2 TB
Now this is mainly because we "opened" the site last month (there was limited ftp usage before that) and moved the files we already had there to, plus that another 100 or so odd people downloaded from that site, good chance the "older" files you find on current BT's are our files.

Anyway, the plans you mentioned are nice, but in the sizes these files are (we like(d) the quality) even 100 Gb (a price plan i DO sell) would get 8 people 10 files over a month.

Based upon my logs I would say that over the past month and half the average downloadstream was 10 -12 Mbp/s for Pacers games only.

that is: approx 4 Terra Byte of downloads.

Also: yes making tarballs or rars would help, but putting more work on the recorders, though I asked for that in the beginning, churning out the "usually" 15 Mb files is a lot extra work.

In case you wondered; I host as ISP, my own 8 servers and another 10 for clients.
Outside of that I maintain servers for site-clients (SME businesses) (about 50 of them) and their networks (inter and intra)

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 05:31 PM
Able, I realize you guys like quality in the movie files. What is your process for recording the files? Are you doing any post compression? I would recommend DiVX or maybe a newer MPEG format. I think it might be possible to reduce the file sizes without greatly reducing the quality.

Ok, I see that you are using DivX. What about using XviD Mpeg-4 at 24fps?
(with the audio reduced like you have it) Heck, you could even go with mono audio or make it 8bit. The picture seems to be more important. Any amount of reduction would really add up.

able
04-09-2005, 05:47 PM
I am not the one creating the files, but we can do some looking into that

TheSauceMaster
04-09-2005, 05:48 PM
why not use the XviD codec ?

How do I encode using XviD?
There are lot of good advises available for win32 users there:
http://www.doom9.org/xvid.htm
http://www.doom9.org/gknot-main4.htm

I agree though 1.2 gigs is way to much per game and there are solutions out there that can help with that. I don't know much about BT but I would be willing to help if I can.

Reggie4Three
04-09-2005, 06:13 PM
I've read the entire thread and I have no clue what you people are talking about but I think I understand that able is getting screwed in all of this.

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 06:21 PM
Note: On the Miami torrent, they use a Real Media format. There is a Realmedia codec that you can use with your normal video player. Just another option...

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 07:12 PM
None of the recent games are anywhere near 400 mb for a single quarter. The 4th is usually the largest at just under 300 and the 3rd (the smallest usually) generally comes in at around 200.

I have been using the divx 5.11 pro at 1300 kb. The only reason I am not using xvid is that the computer I use to record and encode the games seems to be too slow. When I use the Xvid it creates a lag in the sound. That sucks so I stopped doing that.

I must admit I am not an expert in any way at setting vdub up or encoding. I am just doing what little I know. If you have a tutorial I would be happy to try xvid again. I know the file sizes can be smaller with better quality so that is something I would be interested in I am simply not knowledgeable enough on the subject.

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 07:19 PM
Ragnar, how are you recording the games? Are you using a tv card and capturing directly ? Are you recompressing after the capture? If so, what is your capture codec? (and settings)

Ragnar
04-09-2005, 07:25 PM
I am recording raw avi. As I mentioned I am recording these on an old computer that is basically my 3 years olds now. We have it in the living room and it is just a 1ghz computer. I have a blank 80 gig hard drive on it so I have plenty of room to record in raw avi. Then as soon as the game is over I use virtual dub to go in cut out the commercials and re encode it into the divx codec. We can make a far higher quality of encode since it is coming directly from raw avi. We just dont have the bandwidth to make them better.


Edit

Yes I am using a tv card. But I am running a cable from my dish to the card. So it is not a digital signal. I wish they made direct tv tuners for the computer but as far as I know they do not.

Hicks
04-09-2005, 07:32 PM
I used to be "the" recorder, now I am Ragnar's backup, and I jump around on what I use. I've made several by recording at a DVD-level (or so it says) bitrate in .mpg using a the same tuner card Ragnar uses, and then I converted it to 1000kbps .wmv. Lately I've recorded at SVCD level .mpg and converted to 1000kbps .mov.

I've experimented with xvid and divx (in fact very early I made some of the games divx, back during the playoffs), but never had results I was wholly satisfied with. I may go back though and play some more. My dream is to find a way to record in divx or .wmv or even .mov, but I've never found a way to do it.

I have a very nice video editor (Vegas 5), and this latest version seems to allow recording, but I haven't figured out how to set it up with my card yet, and even if I do, that's no guaruntee I could record in anything but .mpg or .avi.

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 07:40 PM
Ok, well, thats what I wanted to know. You guys are on the right track by recording raw .avi ( are you recording the raw .avi at 720x480, 640x480 or 320x240?)

Are you running a cable from the dish box? Does it have s-video out? (and does your card have s-video in?)

I have a tv-card with a tuner on it, but it's regular cable, not digital. Even at raw, the quality isn't as good as a professional video capture card, but it's pretty good.
This sounds like what you might have.
(I have a DPS PVR, but that wouldn't hold a whole games worth of footage)

I would suggest doing a test outputting a video at 24fps (movies are all 24fps and they look great) - and maybe doing mono audio at 16bit 22kh. That alone would cut it down. Then you can do some bracketing with the video bit rate and settings in order to nail down the best compression/quality ratio that would be acceptable. You could also experiment with XviD as well. Take a minutes worth of game play footage, and output it with a variety of settings, nudging up the quality as you go from poor to great. Play them all back to back until you find the best compromise.

Hicks
04-09-2005, 07:49 PM
Yes, I've done some of that. I use the default recorder that came with the card, though, and it's capture options are limited. Ragnar uses something with more flexibility, but I never did get it to work for me.

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 10:31 PM
BTW, if and when the whole bittorrent thing is working, could someone make a torrent for Reggie Miller, Beyond the Glory? I realy want to see this episode but can't find it anywhere.

3ptmiller
04-09-2005, 10:39 PM
BTW, if and when the whole bittorrent thing is working, could someone make a torrent for Reggie Miller, Beyond the Glory? I realy want to see this episode but can't find it anywhere.

http://www.basket-torrent.prv.pl/

:cool:

NorCal_Pacerfan
04-09-2005, 11:02 PM
http://www.basket-torrent.prv.pl/

:cool:

Uh "BOOM goes the dynamite!"

Thanks man.

Dang. The Internet just rules sometimes.