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View Full Version : Odd thoughts from the Utah game...



Peck
03-17-2005, 04:11 AM
If only we could play the Jazz every game. :)

Normally I start off at home but tonight I want to give a quick look at the Jazz. I have been a fan of Jerry Sloan for many years. His tough no nonsense basic aproach to the game has always seemed so simple yet so advanced all at the same time. Of course having two of the greatest players ever will help along the way but even if that weren't the case I think Jerry would have made things work out in Utah.

I still beleive he can. I think he is coaching the team into the ground right now but I know they are really just looking to see who wants to play & be there next year.

However, even though I admire the guy, I think it's time to move on. I think the players he has there are not at all motivated by him & in truth some of them don't respond to him at all. Why he starts Borchardt & not Okur can only be described as curious, at best. Why he plays Borchardt at all actually is a mystery to me. If Utah has a plan for the future I really don't understand it.

Ok, on to us.

I know everybody is down on us & to be honest our chances aren't great of doing anything in the playoffs. But if we do, to me, it would be the most special event in my Pacers history.

I love the offense right now. Granted we have to hit our shots & when we don't we are in deep deep crap. But this is just so much more entertaining to watch than dump it into Jermaine. I know it is not the formula for success, but just from my personnal view point it's more fun to watch.

I'll start with Dale, big suprise, but I can't help it. The guy just totally changes the entire game when he is on the floor. He is one of a handfull of players that can change or impact (thanks Jay) the flow of a game without scoring. I know this may be over reaching on my part but I wonder if Dale didn't play here all season long & play the defense at the same level as he is right now if he wouldn't be a contender for D.P.O.Y. He wouldn't win, but there can be no doubt about his impact on a game. He is a man among men & I am the happiest Pacer fan in the fieldhouse. When he & Reggie left the game at the end of the fourth the crowd in the lower decks gave them a standing ovation. It was great. Dale & Reggie walking off of the court together, just as it always should be.

Foster again was great along side of Dale. His ability to chase down the loose ball/rebounds that he does is really the perfect compliment to Dale's style. But I thought he was outstanding in a couple of instances in the 3rd quarter when he went against Okur on defense. Very slap happy with his hands & really stopped Okur dead in his tracks. I love the combo of Jeff & Dale & it suprises me more than anybody.

Croshere. I was actually happy with Austin last night. I thought he tried very hard & gave good solid relief off of the bench. He was scrappy & I thought he did very well on the boards. I have no idea what happened to his shot or his dribbling ability, but at least last night he was giving effort in every other aspect of the game. Make no mistake about it, if we have any hope at all of doing anything in the playoffs Austin Croshere is going to have to be a very very big part of it.

Reggie with a post up move. Reggie with a post up move. I thought it was 94 again. We've seen him hit three's, we've even seen him hit some floaters & a rare dunk here & there. But when was the last time we saw Reggie in the post? Some things will never change though, great free throw shooting & zero rebounds :D , oh well I guess the argument will be that with Foster & Dale there are no rebounds left to get.

Jackson needs to start. I don't know where this logic comes from that we must have scoring off of our bench, yet we don't need it in the starting unit. With Foster & Dale on the floor we need every other player able to score.

I'm running short on time so I'll just say that I understand the Jazz suck so there is no need to pop the champaign corks. However a win is a win & we are now in sole possesion of 7th & a half a game off of 6th. We are still within reach of 5th.

I guess that Artest is not going to be re-instated this season. Which to be honest comes as a suprise to me because after the first of the year I thought that they might. But I think that Stern floated a trial baloon & he did not get an outcry of people stating that Ron should be brought back & in fact he had a couple of national collumnist state that he shouldn't do it. So I think he just let it go.

I am also of the thought that J.O. is probably gone throughout the regular season & we'll see about the playoffs. He has always shown that if he can play he will play so I don't count him out at all, but it's doubtfull.

Jamaal I have no idea about. But man would it be nice to get him back.

Either way I am ready to go to battle with the team we have right now. For all the crap that has happened to us this season & for all the wrongs that were brought on us from external & internal forces there is still a glimmer of hope.

It's time as fans to stand tall, take that one last leap of faith & believe that a mere mortal can become superman again in the playoffs. Beleive that a titan does walk the earth & has been brought back home. Believe that somewhere barried deep down inside there is the player that Walsh signed that huge contract after a good finals series all those years ago.

In other words, in the words of Gene Hackman, "My team is on the floor".

It's been a hell of a year, let's go out with some class & hopefully kick some @ss.

Bball
03-17-2005, 04:27 AM
What I am about to write will be deemed heresy by some....
I was going to keep my mouth shut since it was only Utah this evening.

Why do I keep getting the feeling but with things the way they are....
we are better off without Jermaine this year now...?

Is it the fact that without JO then Carlisle (and players) can't just rely on him so we get better offense?

Have I been blinded so much by Dale's return and solid play and his ability to put a swagger back into the team (that was lacking) that I am not thinking straight?

And now an admission- As I drove home from the game I began to wonder all over again if trading DD for JO wasn't actually a bad move all along...
But that goes back to who and what was really important to the team in 2000 and tweaking vs blowing it up and I'm not wanting to go there right now.

This quote: "I love the offense right now." resonates with me. I still don't see how some people have a problem with this kind of play.

Anyway, as of now, I don't want JO back this season. Shoot me...

-Bball

DisplacedKnick
03-17-2005, 08:10 AM
What I am about to write will be deemed heresy by some....
I was going to keep my mouth shut since it was only Utah this evening.

Why do I keep getting the feeling but with things the way they are....
we are better off without Jermaine this year now...?

Is it the fact that without JO then Carlisle (and players) can't just rely on him so we get better offense?

Have I been blinded so much by Dale's return and solid play and his ability to put a swagger back into the team (that was lacking) that I am not thinking straight?

And now an admission- As I drove home from the game I began to wonder all over again if trading DD for JO wasn't actually a bad move all along...
But that goes back to who and what was really important to the team in 2000 and tweaking vs blowing it up and I'm not wanting to go there right now.

This quote: "I love the offense right now." resonates with me. I still don't see how some people have a problem with this kind of play.

Anyway, as of now, I don't want JO back this season. Shoot me...

-Bball

The Pacers play better without JO, but you're a better team with him. Hope that makes sense - the Bulls were the same way the first season Michael was whiffing on curve balls.

Ragnar
03-17-2005, 08:14 AM
While I was watching last night I was thinking of much more like the 00 team they looked.

It was not just that Dale was out there but that Reggie and Jack were the main offensive weapons. Jack is a upgrade over Jalen in that he rebounds and defends. Dale is Dale. Jeff is a far better rebounder than Rick ever was, and when playing Jamaal is better now than Mark was. I know Reggie has lost a step or two but man I think we can make some damage if Tinsley comes back.

sixthman
03-17-2005, 08:32 AM
It was Utah, folks. Fool's gold. The worst team in the league. Playing the worst they've played all year. IU would have had a chance against the Jazz last night.

There is no rule that says the Pacers have to play ugly basketball when Jermaine is in the lineup. That decision is on Rick. Not JO.

JO and Dale on the floor at the same time looks like a lethal tandem to me.

indygeezer
03-17-2005, 08:52 AM
BBall...I'm a heretic too. I much prefer this style and like what Dale brings to the team. A superstar is supposed to make those around him better. It is obvious that JO causes everyone else to step back rather than step up. I'm very hopeful that JO is watching and learning from DD. Learning about boxing out, learning about effort and desire, and getting your teamates involved. I'm hoping too he's learning something about not carping at the refs and getting back on defense instead.
But....I'm hoping that RC and LB are taking notes on how much more effective the rest of the team is when they are involved more and perhaps they'll devise plays to use the rest of the team when JO is on the floor. So no, I don't put it all on JO...the gameplan has to be revised too.

Will Galen
03-17-2005, 09:09 AM
Every team needs a go to guy at the end of games. Next year without Reggie they ought to play ball the way they are now and only go in to JO, or Artest at the end of games.

Unclebuck
03-17-2005, 09:17 AM
Some great comments in this thread.

As someone who has been critical of this style of offense, my criticism has nothing to do with what style is more fun to watch, I could not care any less, my argument has been what is the most effective style of offense. I am 100% convinced that having a low post go to guy is the most effective style of offense, especially at playoff time and especially at crunch time. The perfect offense to me is when the Pacers shoot about 60 free throws

I've posted this before, but I'll repeat it, the Miami Heat might be more fun to watch without Shaq, the ball movement is better, Wade has more freedom and the lane is open, but The Heat are far less effective without Shaq on the offensive end. I feel the same way about J.O.

The effect Dale has on the game is incredible, the best thing you can say about a player is that when they go out of the game the team suffers. And right now whenever dale goes out the team suffers. Watching him defend a low post player is great fun, he devours them, they have no chance if they bring something soft in there. The effect Dale has on the defensive end reminds me of another pacer player i love so much, and the thought of Dale and ron on the court together excites me beyond words.

Yes watching Reggie and Dale walk off the court to a thunderous ovation was the highlight of the evening if you ask me, and don't think for one second that Rick did not plan that. He subsituted for Dale and Reggie at the same time and waited a minute to substitute for the other starters.

Peck it is great to see that you have become such a big Jeff Foster fan. This brings up a lot of interesting topics of discussion for another time.

3ptmiller
03-17-2005, 09:34 AM
Yes i agree to, the way they are playing today without JO is just way more exciting to watch. The players are actually stepping up! I didnt even knew that some players was so good, and uncle reggie just prooved us wrong (he can still be deadly). But dont get me wrong, because i think we need JO back this season more than ever, even if it means that we have to go back to watch the less exciting "pass to JO & he shoots" games...

brichard
03-17-2005, 09:49 AM
There is no reason why the Pacers can't play the way they are playing with JO in the lineup. How could it be a bad thing to have an inside/outside attack? If we can combine that with some solid interior defense/rebounding (Foster/Davis) than we really have something. Things become even more thought provoking with the insertion of a hounding perimeter player (Artest.)

So, the person who owns the blame for this is Carlisle. He is the guy who needs to let Reggie and Jax get more touches. He is the person who is in charge of instilling the balance into our offense.

As the playoffs come near you really need to have the post and outside presence. If you don't, you get slaughtered when your jump shots aren't falling. Of course it is easier to hit open jumpers and the defense sagging down on JO should open some of those up.

Don't forget that when Dale played for us we had Rik Smits. And for all of his shortcomings Smits was a legitimate scorer. Even on limited duty you could count on him for 15 and there were the days he would go for 20 or more. He always seemed to play particularly well against Ewing.

How long of a deal do you think we will offer Dale? Three years?

Unclebuck
03-17-2005, 10:02 AM
Two comments.

Give Carlisle a break, the team has changed so much this season, I mean huge changes from week to week, and it is very difficult to change the offense in the middle of the season. so I cut him a lot of slack and look forward to what he comes up with next season.

Assuming Jax and Ron are on the court with J.O next season, we won't have to worry about J.O getting the ball that much.

MagicRat
03-17-2005, 10:29 AM
I've posted this before, but I'll repeat it, the Miami Heat might be more fun to watch without Shaq, the ball movement is better, Wade has more freedom and the lane is open, but The Heat are far less effective without Shaq on the offensive end. I feel the same way about J.O.


But the Heat's ball movement with Shaq is better than the Pacers with JO because Shaq makes quicker decisions in the post and is a better passer. Shaq averages an assist more a game and 5 fewer shots. Shaq is the most dominant player, but he doesn't dominate the ball on the offensive end like JO this year.

Obviously Carlisle is calling for them to dump it in to JO, but he doesn't have to be Travis Best in the post. He can move the ball rather than holding it for 8 seconds and then shooting.......(of course the rest of the players are usually camped at the 3 point line when he has it in the post, so he doesn't have a lot of options for hitting a cutter....and that's probably Carlisle's fault).........

ChicagoJ
03-17-2005, 11:07 AM
Rick doesn't get a free pass just because the team is playing better without its star than with its star.

:crazy:

Here's my thought - and I've been hesitant to post it because I fear Peck's reaction.

Had we picked up DD at the deadline *last season* - as many here were pining for - would his presence have been enough for us to beat Detroit?

He's brought back some intangibles that I frankly have forgotten about over the past four seasons.

brichard
03-17-2005, 11:53 AM
Rick doesn't get a free pass just because the team is playing better without its star than with its star.




I totally agree with this statement. One of my pet peeves is how Peyton Manning is given all the praise for his merits on the football field, but is vindicated for all his follies by other players. You have to judge him fairly. Give him his due when he deserves it and give him some grief when he doesn't.

The "throw it in to JO" offense has been well used far before the challenges of this season started. We saw it in full implementation last year. So, I'm not feeling that the changes felt this season have anything to do with it.

I'm not saying that Carlisle is a bad coach and I also agree that he has performed admirably with all the adversity faced this year. If we make the playoffs it will be a tribute to his ability to manage madness. However, I do think he could help us lead a more balanced offense. Reggies decison to defer to JO all the time has to have something to do with the way Rick is running the team. He's the coach, so that weight falls squarely on his shoulders. He gets credit for the good and grief for the bad.

sixthman
03-17-2005, 12:10 PM
Assuming Jax and Ron are on the court with J.O next season, we won't have to worry about J.O getting the ball that much.

:buddies:

Thanks for the chuckle. I can't wait to see that. What is so sweet is that Ron and Jack can actually defend, as well as get their share of shots.

Bball
03-17-2005, 12:45 PM
A quick comment...
The only reason that I would call the current offense (without JO) 'fun' is because I believe it is the better offense. IMHO it -should- work even better with a player of JO's abilities.

Whoever made the comment about how Shaq is better at not slowing down the Heat because he makes quicker/better decisions with the ball is dead on IMO. ...And someone mentioned JO not making his teammates better... I agree with that as well.

Who gets the blame for that is where the question goes.

More heresy: It sometimes makes me wonder if Artest has had a point in the past.

-Bball

Bball
03-17-2005, 12:48 PM
Had we picked up DD at the deadline *last season* - as many here were pining for - would his presence have been enough for us to beat Detroit?

He's brought back some intangibles that I frankly have forgotten about over the past four seasons.

I was thinking that as well...
The exact thought I was wondering about is 'How much is a championship worth?'. IOW, even if we'd had to pay Dale several million dollars to acquire him last season or the season prior what would that money had bought us?

Did we really have to wait for a fire sale to truly make this happen?

-Bball

Doug
03-17-2005, 12:50 PM
IMO, Rick is a coach of the year candidate. I give him great credit for managing the madness this year and coming out as well as we have so far. (I also credit the players, for stepping up when they needed to).

That said, I hate the dump-it-in-to-JO-and-stand-around offense. Move the freakin' ball. Move the freakin' players. Cut, dammit!

Not only is the ball movement more exciting to watch, it will result in less wear-and-tear on JO. He'll get easier buckets. Heck, everybody will get easier buckets. People will get tired of chasing you around on defense and it will affect their offense. We're deep, we proved that, if we have to play all 12 players to make sure we stay fresh, so be it.

As good as he is, JO is not Shaq. He can't just go through his man from the block every time.

rabid
03-17-2005, 04:25 PM
Bring back "The Quick!" :devil:

Peck
03-17-2005, 05:34 PM
Bring back "The Quick!" :devil:


Laugh all you want, but I thought the theory of the quick was dead on. The very few times they tried it, it usually worked.

However the quick fails in a hurry when player movement stagnates & the ball gets stuck in the post.

Doug
03-17-2005, 05:36 PM
Re: The Quick

Theory Good. Implementation Poor.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to distribute blame between the players and the coaches.

ChicagoJ
03-17-2005, 06:10 PM
I've got to admit that Isiah had numerous ideas that I liked, in theory.

And very few ideas that I liked when I saw them on the court.

Al at "point-forward", for example. :yikes: My eyes still hurt.

Kegboy
03-18-2005, 12:29 AM
Al at "point-forward", for example. :yikes: My eyes still hurt.


AAHHHH!!! My eyes! My eyes!!!

Damn you Jay for bringing that up. Just for that...1997! 1997!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:zip:

Anthem
03-18-2005, 12:58 AM
I was going to mention this. Jermaine was a big fan of the quick, because it didn't require him to hold the ball and go iso. There were a couple of really good articles w/ quotes from Jermaine about how he'd rather get more people involved.

I think Jermaine's willing, I just don't think Rick is.

SycamoreKen
03-18-2005, 04:12 AM
Laugh all you want, but I thought the theory of the quick was dead on. The very few times they tried it, it usually worked.

However the quick fails in a hurry when player movement stagnates & the ball gets stuck in the post.

That is the problem with all offenses though. If players don't move they are easy to guard. There isn't much time with the 24 second clock, but ball reversal, movement, and passing have to happen in order for an offense to be successful.