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Unclebuck
03-14-2005, 11:40 AM
Good article, and it does make me wonder, because I was 100% in favor of the superstar model, but maybe things are changing

I know this is Sam Smith but there are some interesting quotes in the middle of the article from an unnamed NBA executive.

Skiles has done a great job with the Bulls. They are one of the very best defensive teams in the league which is remarkable considering how young they are.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/


Banging Bulls irk Western teams



March 14, 2005


Baby Bulls? Forget it! How about the Brutal, Baleful Bulls, perhaps the NBA's dirtiest team?

No, wait. This is a good thing. The Detroit Pistons have won three NBA championships while wearing that label, and have a good chance at a fourth this season. The New York Knicks, when they were the best they were in the last 30 years in the 1990s under Pat Riley, were that kind of team.

It bothers opponents, like the Seattle SuperSonics' Ray Allen, who was complaining ceaselessly to the referees Friday during the Bulls' win that Kirk Hinrich was hitting his arm, bumping him and holding him up on cuts. Likewise, when the Bulls narrowly lost to the San Antonio Spurs last month, Tim Duncan congratulated his team on playing through the Bulls' rough tactics.

"What they want to do is bang," Duncan said. "They want to hack and hold. I thought we did a great job of fighting through that. We didn't get on the refs too much."

This is the true alchemy of general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles. Paxson brought in the players willing and able to play that way, and Skiles instructed them how to do so. When Skiles played in the NBA, he couldn't stay in front of Kirstie Alley after a big meal. The rules then were somewhat different and allowed hand checking and more holding, which the NBA has been trying to limit. These young Bulls are more athletic, so they have become equally frustrating.

Especially to Western Conference teams like Seattle, which is here Tuesday. Those teams like to run up and down and shoot threes, which is why few believe any team but the Spurs, Pistons and Miami Heat can win this year's Finals. Once the playoffs arrive, the games slow, in part because the players are allowed more contact. Cutters often are stopped and held for a split-second, throwing off the play. Shooters are chased and held going around screens. The referees get tired of calling everything.

Interestingly, it's a tactic the real Baby Bulls of the late 1980s used to complain about with the Pistons. The Bulls finally stopped complaining and played the same way. The Lakers couldn't figure out how to last June.

The guys out West don't like that, which is one reason the Bulls are 13-6 against the supposedly more powerful Western teams since the end of their November road trip. It all suggests the Bulls may be well prepared for the playoffs.



Forget superstars

There's another continuing change in philosophy, if not style, that goes something like this: You don't need a transcendent offensive star to be successful.

In other words, the Pistons' 2003-04 season was no fluke.

"If you look around, the teams in this league that are successful are the teams with depth, talent and good people," said one top team executive. "More and more, you're seeing that these teams that are still trying to win with that superstar model are falling further and further out of the mix. I think some teams are slow to recognize that the days of getting one or maybe two All-Stars and trying to win that way is flawed thinking and outdated."

Consider: With Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant the league's leading scorers, it appears likely the league's leading scorer will not be in the playoffs for the second consecutive season. It hadn't happened since 1985 and New York's Bernard King before Orlando's Tracy McGrady last season.

Among the league's top 15 scorers, it appears five--with Michael Redd, Jason Richardson and Vince Carter joining Iverson and Bryant--likely will not be in the playoffs. And several more play for teams considered long shots to go two rounds in the playoffs, like LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Gilbert Arenas, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce.

As for that star pairing of Iverson and Chris Webber in Philadelphia, it is early, but Webber is being booed already, coach Jim O'Brien is getting the bulk of the blame from fans and media and Iverson was heard yelling at O'Brien to get him the ball more. Said Webber: "It's negativity and controversy. It's something that always follows me."

Iverson didn't exactly tell Webber to stop whining but said, "I've been in Philadelphia nine years, and I've seen way worse [booing] than that. I've been booed. So why would it bother me if somebody else is getting booed? It didn't bother me when I was getting booed. That's just how it is. This is Philadelphia."



Looking for love

Webber's former teammate, Mike Bibby, hit two game-winning buzzer shots last week for Sacramento. Freed of Webber's dominance of the ball, Bibby is averaging 24.1 points, 7.9 assists, 4.4 rebounds and 2.1 steals since the trading deadline.

Bibby now holds the Derek Harper Award for best player never to be an All-Star. You could make a good team of those players. First team would be Bibby, Richard Hamilton, Jalen Rose, Toni Kukoc and Pau Gasol. Second team would be Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Corey Maggette, Lamar Odom and Keith Van Horn. Honorable mentions and those coming into the category would include Kirk Hinrich, Jason Richardson, Andre Miller, Donyell Marshall, Joe Smith, Kurt Thomas and Matt Harpring.



Goodbye, Strickland

And then there's Rod Strickland. The long-ago DePaul product is seventh on the all-time NBA assists list and the only one among the top 10 never to have made an All-Star team. Strickland, with his 10th team, quietly was released at the trading deadline as Houston solidified its backcourt. He said he's finally done.

"Each year the calls have been coming less and have been further and further along," Strickland said. "I'm done. I mean it this time."

Strickland says he wants to remain around the NBA either coaching or scouting. Doesn't everyone? Also hanging them up from his familiar spot on the injured list is Cleveland's Scott Williams, the undrafted free agent who played on three Bulls title teams. "It's time," said Williams, who wants to get into NBA broadcasting. Doesn't everyone?


Chicken dance

The league didn't see it coming. The Suns, with six weeks left, have no more games with Dallas, Seattle or the Spurs. And perhaps some interesting gamesmanship was at work last week when Spurs coach Gregg Popovich chose a game with the Suns--tied with the Spurs for the league's best record--to begin resting Duncan and Manu Ginobili with nagging injuries.

The Suns saw it as the Spurs not wanting to risk their psychological advantage for the playoffs, having swept Phoenix to that point.

So new Suns owner Robert Sarver spent the game in his courtside seat flapping his arms like a chicken and yelling: "Varsity! Varsity! Varsity!" And then the Suns struggled to win against the Spurs' reserves. Said Popovich: "In life, a lot of questions don't get answered for us. I still don't know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. I don't know who `Deep Throat' was in Watergate. But now I know who was under the `San Diego Chicken' outfit all of those years."



Spoiled brats?

Not that anyone is surprised anymore, but Boston's Paul Pierce left another game cursing coach Doc Rivers last week. Asked how much he was concerned by another Pierce fit, Rivers formed a zero with his thumb and forefinger.

Cleveland's James was said to have offered a similar appraisal of coach Paul Silas during a game last week, but no one thinks he'll be suspended like others have been for similar actions.

It only gets worse in Portland, where Nick Van Exel refused to play and was put on the injured list in a protest over the team effectively giving up and playing its kids. Said Van Exel: "You can't deny we're throwing in the season." Ruben Patterson was said to have been sent home with pay so he wouldn't criticize the team, and Derek Anderson has been left on the injured list.


Around the league

It's Shaq and Kobe! What, again? Yup, Shaquille O'Neal and Bryant are back Thursday in Miami for the unanticipated second and final meeting of the season. "It's not a big deal to me at all," Bryant said, echoing America's sentiments this time. . . . Super Bowl Shuffle? A local retail chain in Miami is publishing a comic book series with O'Neal and Dwyane Wade (Superman and Flash, as O'Neal calls them) as comic book superheroes with other Heat players. . . . Interesting Duke issues in Clippersland as Corey Maggette and Elton Brand have been shooting more, it was said, because each was afraid of not getting the ball back when passing to the other. A blast from coach Mike Dunleavy last week seemed to ease the tension, but the belief is one, probably Maggette, will be traded this summer as the Clippers try to land a shooting guard, like Seattle's Allen or the Suns' Joe Johnson, and move Bobby Simmons to small forward. . . . Allen continued his free-agent recruitment tour Sunday in New York, where the rumors were the Knicks would try a postseason sign-and-trade of Jamal Crawford and Kurt Thomas for Allen. The Clippers supposedly would do Maggette and Chris Wilcox.


Copyright 2005, The Chicago Tribune

Bball
03-14-2005, 12:15 PM
Are teams getting away from the superstar model or are they getting away from throwing the ball into JO...errrr their star player on offense every possession and becoming less predictable and harder to defend?

or IOW... Becoming more balanced teams (key word: teams) on both sides of the court?

-Bball

sweabs
03-14-2005, 01:50 PM
Bibby now holds the Derek Harper Award for best player never to be an All-Star. You could make a good team of those players. First team would be Bibby, Richard Hamilton, Jalen Rose, Toni Kukoc and Pau Gasol. Second team would be Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Corey Maggette, Lamar Odom and Keith Van Horn. Honorable mentions and those coming into the category would include Kirk Hinrich, Jason Richardson, Andre Miller, Donyell Marshall, Joe Smith, Kurt Thomas and Matt Harpring.

Once again people...Elton Brand?

Fool
03-14-2005, 02:12 PM
Once again people...Elton Brand?

2002

Natston
03-14-2005, 02:15 PM
2002

As an injury replacement...

sweabs
03-14-2005, 02:16 PM
Yeah, he was in the 2002 game. But only for an injured Shaq if I remember...kind of like by default. Doesn't count in my books :tongue:

fwpacerfan
03-14-2005, 02:41 PM
Yes the model is changing - and not just in the NBA either. Look at the Patriots - no one superstar, just very good role players who know their roles and don't try to do more than their roles allow.

Pistons are built the same way. I think the Pacers are getting there - when they stay within their roles they are good but when they get away from it - they'll go 10 minutes without scoring a field goal.

FiestyFosterFanatic
03-14-2005, 03:48 PM
Wait, the Spurs are complaining that teams are hacking them? Give me a break, the Spurs are one of the dirtiest teams in the league. They just hammer people all night, and then get every call on the opposite end.

Kstat
03-14-2005, 03:50 PM
Wait, the Spurs are complaining that teams are hacking them? Give me a break, the Spurs are one of the dirtiest teams in the league. They just hammer people all night, and then get every call on the opposite end.

*cough* Bruce Bowen *cough*

I love how Bowen's feet always just HAPPEN to move right under his man's ankles as he's coming down from a jumper.......oops, another sprain. Oh darn.

Between him and Danny Fortson I'm not sure who is worse.

sweabs
03-14-2005, 07:10 PM
*cough* Bruce Bowen *cough*

I love how Bowen's feet always just HAPPEN to move right under his man's ankles as he's coming down from a jumper.......oops, another sprain. Oh darn.

Between him and Danny Fortson I'm not sure who is worse.

I'm going to give that award to Bruce Bowen. I've just seen it way too many times. And when he decides to pull that smart-*** move, he has got to realize that it's pretty damn serious. We're not just talking about little cheap shots into the stomach, etc. (which is ALSO another one of his famous traits); but we're talking about SERIOUS injury to an ankle, knee, etc.

There is absolutely no point to what he does in those instances. The ball is in many cases, already up in the air...he's not going to change the outcome of the ball's path by just stepping underneath his man. All he is accomplishing in that instance is one stupid, smart-*** and dangerous play. I can't stand the guy...and from the sounds of countless NBA players, neither can they.

Lord Helmet
03-14-2005, 07:15 PM
*cough* Bruce Bowen *cough*

I love how Bowen's feet always just HAPPEN to move right under his man's ankles as he's coming down from a jumper.......oops, another sprain. Oh darn.

Between him and Danny Fortson I'm not sure who is worse.
Yeah, both of them are dirty players. I don't like Forston at all and Bowen doing his infamous "Stepping under the players foot" move is just stupid and it tells you the kind of dumbass he is.

Arcadian
03-14-2005, 07:37 PM
Hasn't Donnie been saying for years the league is moving away from the superstar model?

I still believe that the team with the best player wins 90% of the time. Of the three teams Smith said had a chance to win (in the dirty player section) two of them had Shaq and Duncan. Detriot's success hasn't changed anything. Maybe Detriot's success also means Ben Wallace is underrated rather than the model is changing.

Bball
03-14-2005, 07:49 PM
Maybe Detriot's success also means Ben Wallace is underrated rather than the model is changing.

I was thinking something along the same lines (some players are just underrated while others are overrated) when I made my cryptic comments.

I also was thinking that maybe some 'superstars' are more willing to play a team game and fade into the woodwork a bit in order to accomplish their goal of a championship.

-Bball

Hicks
03-14-2005, 08:26 PM
Sorry, but I don't buy for a second Ben is in Shaq or Duncan's league. JO's better than Ben, and JO's not up with those two. I think the truth is Detroit didn't prove that the winning model is changing, but rather there's more than one way it can be done. That's not the same thing a league-wide trend shift. I'm not saying there is no shift going on, just that I wouldn't point to the 2004 champs as total proof that now that's how people are always going to win.

Arcadian
03-14-2005, 08:36 PM
I'm not saying that he is in the class of Duncan or Shaq. I just said underrated.

Hicks
03-14-2005, 08:44 PM
I'm not saying that he is in the class of Duncan or Shaq. I just said underrated.

Ok. Then my next question is: Who underrates him, and in what way?

Skaut_Ech
03-14-2005, 09:00 PM
I'm going to give that award to Bruce Bowen. I've just seen it way too many times. And when he decides to pull that smart-*** move, he has got to realize that it's pretty damn serious. We're not just talking about little cheap shots into the stomach, etc. (which is ALSO another one of his famous traits); but we're talking about SERIOUS injury to an ankle, knee, etc.

There is absolutely no point to what he does in those instances. The ball is in many cases, already up in the air...he's not going to change the outcome of the ball's path by just stepping underneath his man. All he is accomplishing in that instance is one stupid, smart-*** and dangerous play. I can't stand the guy...and from the sounds of countless NBA players, neither can they.

I think that's the key to his defense. He makes you think if you extend yourself, you may get hurt. Reach for a lose ball, he might take out a rib, affecting your shooting. Try to take him for a pullup jumper, you wonder if he'll have a foot waiting underneath you.

I agree that Fortson is a jerk. Watch how much he punches and shoves when the ball is in the air for a rebound. What gets me is the guy is a devout Christian. I've never been able to reconcile his style of play with his supposed religious conviction.

Cactus Jax
03-14-2005, 09:06 PM
I still remember a game with the Spurs vs the Timberwolves where Wally Sc. had the ball and he used a pump fake to which Bowen jumped in the air and kicked Wally in the face.

It was an example of his dirty tactics, but that time he got caught in the cookie jar so to speak.

fooddaman
03-14-2005, 09:22 PM
What gets me is the guy is a devout Christian. I've never been able to reconcile his style of play with his supposed religious conviction.

Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit."

He can say that he is a devout christian all he wants, but the proof is in the pudding ;)

Hicks
03-14-2005, 09:26 PM
You do everything you can to get a advantage.

I know I will get blasted for this so I will keep it to a minimum, but I dont have a bid problem with that. IRL or in sports.

Ethics?

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 09:31 PM
Rules?

Laws?

Morals?

Lying?

Stealing?

Killing?

Throwing beer cups? ... Oooooops! :zip:

Arcadian
03-14-2005, 09:33 PM
I don't think Ben is seen as a first tier player in this league and I think he is. There are very few players who change what happens on the court in the way Ben does and because his effort doesn't show up as 50 point games he isn't recognized for it.

Hicks
03-14-2005, 09:34 PM
Our definitions for 'first tier' must be pretty different then. To me that first tier is reserved for Shaq and Duncan (and perhaps more, but this isn't about that so I won't make a list).

Skaut_Ech
03-14-2005, 09:40 PM
You do everything you can to get a advantage.

I know I will get blasted for this so I will keep it to a minimum, but I dont have a bid problem with that. IRL or in sports.


Um, I don't know how to word this other than..


*Flaming removed*

Just like I don't agree with chop blocks in football...they can end a career. Same for putting foot under a guy who's airborn. There's playing for an advantage, then there's playing dirty. If you aren't good enough to hang at ytour sport and have to make questionable tactics your forte', you need to find a new occupation, far as I'm concerned. That "anything goes" attitude is why we have so many asshowles in pro sports today.

So when a player goes down hurt due to a dirty play, or something horribly against the spirit of competition, you're the goof sitting there clapping.

Wow. :thumbdown :irked:

Bball
03-14-2005, 09:42 PM
I think what is trying to be said is some players have a bigger impact on the game than they are given credit for because they don't make the highlight reels while doing it...

-Bball

skyfire
03-14-2005, 09:45 PM
You do everything you can to get a advantage.

I know I will get blasted for this so I will keep it to a minimum, but I dont have a bid problem with that. IRL or in sports.

You can play physical defense without being a dirty player. Stepping under someone who jumps to shoot is blatantly trying to cause an injury and the worst kind of bad sportsmanship.

I dont know that the 'winning model' for the NBA is changing quite so significantly, defense is always going to be an integral aspect of any playoff run. Whether the team is structured to favour one or more superstars or is a more balanced attack effects how the opposing team will defend you. If the Pacers could win every game by going into JO on every play then why not, but it seems obvious that the more one dimensional your attack is the better the other team can learn to stop it.

I believe that a successful team should be balanced, comprised of players whose strengths compliment one another. I think the Pacers have alot of complimentary players, they just need the opportunity to get them all on the same court.

Arcadian
03-14-2005, 09:45 PM
Come on Hicks don't make me argue for Detriot. I'm going to have to scrub my fingertips. It was just one comment in a longer post.

One last point. In terms of individual game I don't think Ben is as good as many NBA players. However, the effect he has on the court puts him in rare company. He makes his teammates better than JO makes his teammates. He brings Artest like energy to the team. What is the difference between the Pistons start and how they are playing now? I happen to believe that Ben is in the top 5 in terms of the effect his presence has on the game.

I have to shower now.

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 09:52 PM
I don't think Ben is seen as a first tier player in this league and I think he is. There are very few players who change what happens on the court in the way Ben does and because his effort doesn't show up as 50 point games he isn't recognized for it.
I think you're wrong - about how much respect Ben Wallace gets, not how good he is.

He's the most respected/feared player on a world championship team, a two time DPOY award winner, and has made more than one all-star appearance. (I can't remember off the top of my head how many).

Ben Wallace is not under-rated.

ChicagoJ
03-14-2005, 09:54 PM
I think you guys are giving too much credit to the wrong Wallace. Or the Wallace who spells his name H-a-m-i-l-t-o-n. Or something...

:whoknows:

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 09:56 PM
Our definitions for 'first tier' must be pretty different then. To me that first tier is reserved for Shaq and Duncan (and perhaps more, but this isn't about that so I won't make a list).
My definition of first-tier is broader than yours, because I'll also include Ben here, along with 20 or so others. My list would be 20-30 people long, and I think Ben belongs on it. So we're talking semantics.

But I can definitely see where you're coming from.

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 09:57 PM
I think you guys are giving too much credit to the wrong Wallace. Or the Wallace who spells his name H-a-m-i-l-t-o-n. Or something...

:whoknows:


HAHAHAHAHA.

That's good.

:D

Hicks
03-14-2005, 09:58 PM
My definition of first-tier is broader than yours, because I'll also include Ben here, along with 20 or so others. My list would be 20-30 people long, and I think Ben belongs on it. So we're talking semantics.

But I can definitely see where you're coming from.

I can see yours too and I'm not that opposed to it. Personally I like to reserve the top spot for the cream of the cream, and then let the next 20-30 great players sit on level 2.

Hicks
03-14-2005, 10:19 PM
I dont like dirty play, but if you are willing to push the envelope to get that advantage, I dont have a problem with it.

That's a contradiction.

sweabs
03-14-2005, 10:22 PM
I do think we are to sensitive to dirty play, and even when Artest wasnt a Pacers I didnt have a problem with his hard fouls.

I think there is a difference between dirty play and hard fouls.

Skaut_Ech
03-14-2005, 10:23 PM
You do everything you can to get a advantage....... I dont have a big problem with that.


You can play physical defense without being a dirty player. Stepping under someone who jumps to shoot is blatantly trying to cause an injury and the worst kind of bad sportsmanship.


I never disputed that............

Okay, obviously, I'm not the only one that has no idea what you're saying. We talk about a player sliding his feet under airborne players and you respond that you do everything you can to get the advantage and that you don't have a problem with that.

You also don't dispute that that type of behavior is bad sportsmanship and injury causing. Yet, all we can do is go back to your original comment of "You do everything you can to get a advantage....... I dont have a big problem with that.

Are you seeing why some, myself leading the charge, are so irritated by what you wrote?

(And mod, you've got to be kidding me that you edited that out. I don't know who did it, so I'll just send a blanket statement of a little bit of disbelief to all of you.)

Hicks
03-14-2005, 10:25 PM
Ill re-word.

I dont like dirty-play. I am against Bruce Bowen (I think it was him) kicking the face, I am against the cheap shot to the head as player "A" is going up for a lay-up.

However, if you are pushed while going for a rebound, I dont see a problem with that. If you dont get cought, then its fair game as far as I am concerned. If a foul is a little harder then usual (ala a Artest) as long as no one is injured, its part of the game. If it keeps team "b" from driving the next possesion, mission accomplished.

We are quick to lable the latter as "dirty", I dont see a problem with it.

Now you're being clearer. Up until now you left it to read like you were just fine with Bowen's level of dirty play.

sweabs
03-14-2005, 10:29 PM
That was my whole point......

:confused: I thought you were saying that we are too sensitive to dirty play, and then implying that Artest was a dirty player because of his hard fouls; yet you were not offended by them?

Meh...I don't understand.

Fool
03-15-2005, 08:18 AM
I know this subject has kind of come and gone in this thread but I just saw it and wanted to add my piece.

I think its hard for Piston fans to talk about whether a player is dirty or not seeing as their first two championships came from the "Bad Boys" so instead of recite my opinion of Bruce Bowen I will just post this...

http://webpages.charter.net/gline/brucelee.gif


(I didn't make it, I just pulled it from another message board)

fwpacerfan
03-15-2005, 08:54 AM
I know this subject has kind of come and gone in this thread but I just saw it and wanted to add my piece.

I think its hard for Piston fans to talk about whether a player is dirty or not seeing as their first two championships came from the "Bad Boys" so instead of recite my opinion of Bruce Bowen I will just post this...

http://webpages.charter.net/gline/brucelee.gif


(I didn't make it, I just pulled it from another message board)


Great video! And THAT is who Popovich said should've been DPOY instead of Artest last year?

canyoufeelit
03-15-2005, 02:46 PM
BB is a better defender than Artest in some regards. Has been for the last 5 years or so. Ever see that guy tear through screens? He's a machine. Should there be a Spurs/Pistons finals, that's why I'm 100% confident in the Spurs: Bowen shuts Hamilton down completely every time they seem to play, it's remarkable.

McKeyFan
03-15-2005, 04:43 PM
I think that's the key to his defense. He makes you think if you extend yourself, you may get hurt. Reach for a lose ball, he might take out a rib, affecting your shooting. Try to take him for a pullup jumper, you wonder if he'll have a foot waiting underneath you.

I agree that Fortson is a jerk. Watch how much he punches and shoves when the ball is in the air for a rebound. What gets me is the guy is a devout Christian. I've never been able to reconcile his style of play with his supposed religious conviction.

VaPacersFan was saying he had no problem with Forston (paragraph 2) but wasn't referring including paragraph 1 (Bowen).

That should clear it up .... Christians can punch but not trip. ;)

Kstat
03-15-2005, 05:37 PM
I know this subject has kind of come and gone in this thread but I just saw it and wanted to add my piece.

I think its hard for Piston fans to talk about whether a player is dirty or not seeing as their first two championships came from the "Bad Boys" so instead of recite my opinion of Bruce Bowen I will just post this...

(I didn't make it, I just pulled it from another message board)

In the defense of the Bad Boys, they weren't "dirty" cheap, yes, dirty no.

They went out there to inflict pain and intimidate, but they NEVER tried to deliberately hurt people. Nobody ever got injured or lost a season to anything the bad boys did.

Kstat
03-15-2005, 05:39 PM
BB is a better defender than Artest in some regards. Has been for the last 5 years or so. Ever see that guy tear through screens? He's a machine. Should there be a Spurs/Pistons finals, that's why I'm 100% confident in the Spurs: Bowen shuts Hamilton down completely every time they seem to play, it's remarkable.

If they want to switch Bowen out on Rip, I'm more than comfortable letting Prince post up little Manu Ginobili every other time down court.....

sweabs
03-15-2005, 05:45 PM
If they want to switch Bowen out on Rip, I'm more than comfortable letting Prince post up little Manu Ginobili every other time down court.....

I watched the Pistons game last night - it wasn't a thing of beauty...but Tay has been playing out of his mind lately.

That move of his, where he goes into the paint, and extends his arm over the defender for the easy hook = unstoppable. That guy has so much talent - and his body is freakishly long...it's a unique but amazing game he has.

Hicks
03-15-2005, 05:47 PM
They went out there to inflict pain and intimidate, but they NEVER tried to deliberately hurt people. Nobody ever got injured or lost a season to anything the bad boys did.

:chuckle:

Kstat
03-15-2005, 05:52 PM
I watched the Pistons game last night - it wasn't a thing of beauty...but Tay has been playing out of his mind lately.

That move of his, where he goes into the paint, and extends his arm over the defender for the easy hook = unstoppable. That guy has so much talent - and his body is freakishly long...it's a unique but amazing game he has.

Yeah, Tay isn't a #1 option, but when the other team switches their best defender off on rip, Tay will go to town in the post on a smaller SG. I thought it was only a matter of time before he finally broke 30 on somebody.