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obnoxiousmodesty
03-13-2005, 09:32 AM
http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/228952-2337-036.html


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Injury update

Pacers coach Rick Carlisle had no update on O'Neal's shoulder injury Saturday.

"I wish I had news for you, but I really don't," he said. "We'll see. We may not have anything for you until Monday."

O'Neal, who has missed the past four games, did not practice Saturday. He's eligible to come off the injured list after today's game but will not be ready.

Tinsley acknowledged Saturday that he tore a ligament in his left foot in Philadelphia on Jan. 31. He's played significant minutes in only two games since but believes he's close to a return.

He took the court for pregame warm-ups Friday but changed his mind after experiencing pain.

"Some days I feel good and some days I feel (bad)," he said. "It's just tough."
I wonder how long they've known it was a torn ligament? Why all the secrecy?

Ragnar
03-13-2005, 10:23 AM
I think they knew right away and just dont like to tell us things. Sort of like how they know for a fact Ron wont be back this year but they want us to hold out hope. A couple of years from now we will hear that in the metting Ron punched Stern and that the Pacers knew about it.

Bball
03-13-2005, 11:56 AM
It wouldn't surprise me that if one day we find out that behind closed doors the Pacers not only agreed with Stern's season long suspension of Artest but actually even had something to do with it... ...Whether that means they encouraged it or simply refused to go to bat for him early on.

-Bball

NotLosingButWinning
03-13-2005, 12:15 PM
http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/228952-2337-036.html


I wonder how long they've known it was a torn ligament? Why all the secrecy?

if they knew, they would have put him on the injured list, looks like the medical staff missed it earlier.

Hicks
03-13-2005, 12:16 PM
I remember reading when JO hurt his shoulder that they were going to put Tinsley on the IL, but then didn't because they wanted to put JO on it.

FiestyFosterFanatic
03-13-2005, 12:23 PM
They really need to do something with this medical staff. I know the head trainer has been working with the Pacers since the Pacers started, but it is starting to get pathetic. I'm waiting for the day a player dies on the court and he misdiagnoses it, and the player continues to suite up, ala Weekend at Bernie's.

Pacerized
03-13-2005, 12:40 PM
I really think they may be controlling what they let out publicly over concerns about the impact to the fan base. I think fans stuck by the team very well after the brawl considering what Stern did to our hopes of a championship, but every injury takes a toll on our hopes. If they were to announce today that O'neal, and Tinsley were out for the rest of the year, what impact would that have. I'm still hoping they're both back full force by playoff time, but I don't know if that will be the case. I'll bet the team knows.

Hicks
03-13-2005, 01:37 PM
I'm insulted if they actually lied about the injuries to pacify the fanbase. That's an insult to my intelligence.

Bball
03-13-2005, 01:44 PM
I'm insulted if they actually lied about the injuries to pacify the fanbase. That's an insult to my intelligence.

Well... Here are the possibilities as I see them:

-The medical staff misdiagnosed several injuries this year (and last)

-The equipment the medical staff has used in diagnosing injuries has been faulty several times

-The team purposedly misled the fans.


---
Are there any other possibilities I'm neglecting?

-Bball

Arcadian
03-13-2005, 01:44 PM
Was Tins injured before the trading deadline? If so the wrong diagonis could have something to do with that.

Lord Helmet
03-13-2005, 01:46 PM
I only hope they can come back, and I don't know why they don't have any news on JO by now. If they still don't have anything by Monday, it'll start to look fishy in my eyes.

able
03-13-2005, 01:48 PM
I do not think they lied, but simply missed the diagnoses.

1. Mel would never have attempted to play had they known the ligaments were torn.
2. Why is JO all of a sudden seeking outside opinion?
3. Why is JB all of a sudden a patient of LB's friend?

It seems to me that as I stated before, management needs to take a damn close look at the medical staff.
As far as I am concerned they are the ones screwing up, a freak accident yes, but the plethora of injuries says something about medical support as well, training methods and intensitiy are monitored closely by med staff, to prevent these kind of outbreaks, seems we are doing the opposite.

able
03-13-2005, 01:49 PM
Was Tins injured before the trading deadline? If so the wrong diagonis could have something to do with that.
Hogwash; Mel was/is untradeable or as good as with his poison pill contract.

That is if they ever wanted to trdae him, which is highly unlikely.

Bball
03-13-2005, 01:53 PM
Hogwash; Mel was/is untradeable or as good as with his poison pill contract.

That is if they ever wanted to trdae him, which is highly unlikely.

I would also think a team making a trade would have their own medical staff look at Tinsley and catch the extent of the injury so, other than helping to not dampen initial interest, I don't see much benefit in hiding the injury for tradings sake.

-Bball

Arcadian
03-13-2005, 02:10 PM
I was thinking more in terms if we were trying to get Payton or another back up. The price would have gone up if other teams thought Tins was substancially hurt.

Bball
03-13-2005, 02:16 PM
I was thinking more in terms if we were trying to get Payton or another back up. The price would have gone up if other teams thought Tins was substancially hurt.


Oooh... being sneaky and looking at things from another angle...

I see how you are now ;)

-Bball

Will Galen
03-13-2005, 05:21 PM
They really need to do something with this medical staff. I know the head trainer has been working with the Pacers since the Pacers started, but it is starting to get pathetic. I'm waiting for the day a player dies on the court and he misdiagnoses it, and the player continues to suite up, ala Weekend at Bernie's.


I think it's Bird's doings. I don't think he wants anyone to know if a certain player will suit up or not. Bird seeks every edge and the less a team prepares for a certain Pacer lineup the better off the team is.

McKeyFan
03-13-2005, 05:52 PM
I think it's Bird's doings. I don't think he wants anyone to know if a certain player will suit up or not. Bird seeks every edge and the less a team prepares for a certain Pacer lineup the better off the team is.

Pretty good theory.

PacerMan
03-13-2005, 05:56 PM
I think it's abolutely insane to think that a professional sports franchise worth 100 million dollars or so is somehow going to be behind the other teams in medical staffing or state of the art care or whatever you want to look at. Their whole job is to manage a stable of first class athletes through a very physically difficult 100 game season. How could you NOT know everything there is to know if that one specific area is all you have to worry about??
Silly to blame a medical staff for injurys that occur.

Suaveness
03-13-2005, 09:25 PM
Isn't the med staff supposed to be one of the league's best?

indygeezer
03-13-2005, 11:24 PM
I think it's abolutely insane to think that a professional sports franchise worth 100 million dollars or so is somehow going to be behind the other teams in medical staffing or state of the art care or whatever you want to look at. Their whole job is to manage a stable of first class athletes through a very physically difficult 100 game season. How could you NOT know everything there is to know if that one specific area is all you have to worry about??
Silly to blame a medical staff for injurys that occur.

Dave and his crew have always been top notch, but please explain the situation otherwise. It's easy for an injury to be worse than originally thought, but...

Tinsley
Jermaine
and the ever present...Jon Bender.

Too many players trying to go out there only to find out their injuries are greater than expected. Uh yeah...in fairness JO hasn't tried to go back out before they found out it was worse than originally thought.

3 players worse off than originally thought. THAT is why I've been taking them to task.

able
03-14-2005, 05:52 AM
I think it's abolutely insane to think that a professional sports franchise worth 100 million dollars or so is somehow going to be behind the other teams in medical staffing or state of the art care or whatever you want to look at. Their whole job is to manage a stable of first class athletes through a very physically difficult 100 game season. How could you NOT know everything there is to know if that one specific area is all you have to worry about??
Silly to blame a medical staff for injurys that occur.

I know I am insane, do you know your shortcomings?

Like the value of the franchise ? estimated by Forbes at $ 280 mio, which "usually" is 60% of the sales value of that same franchise.
Like the fact that the medical staff has been "the same" for a lot of years?
Like the fact that they are "human"?

Like the fact that sports medicine is hard for a "single athlete" doing a single thing like run or jump, but that NBA athletes are "all-round" athletes, which makes it all the more difficult?

That "over the years" they have "misjudged" the Bender problem more then once.
That the admittance of Mel Mel to have "torn ligaments" puts his "trying to play with a sprain" in a totally new light? Or is it "ok" to play with torn ligaments?
That the fact that JO seeks outside "second opinions" is a worrying factor in the faith in that same medical staff?
That statistical facts like the number of "lower back spams" is something that should be evaluated to see what causes this and/or if the training methods used are causing the additional stress or that it is something else that can be "prevented"?

And for the final question: Do you know that the medical staff has "regular jobs" in hospitals or private practises around Indy and therefore are not "only" concerned with the Pacers?

And as an addendum, civility is not calling people insane.

grace
03-14-2005, 11:04 AM
I haven't read the entire thread so maybe someone has brought this up. Isn't the actual diagosing of an injury up to the team doctor? I've read plenty of times how one player or another goes to Larry's guru in Boston. Its not David Craig's fault that the doctors don't know a torn ligament from a sprain. Its not the training staff's call if Bender needs surgery or not.

I don't see any problem with any player seeking a second opinion. Insurance companies make every day people do that, well, every day.

Back spasms. Jeff and Scott aren't the only ones who get them. Tracy McGrady gets them all the time. I'd say its a league wide problem. Once a part of your body is injured it will be more suseptable to injury. That's just a fact of life.

ChicagoJ
03-14-2005, 11:17 AM
Here's what I don't get out of all this:

I've never heard of a torn ligament healing without either surgery. A divine miracle is probably the only other way this heals without surgery.

I think this is still some type of mis-information, trying to justify why he's been out so long with a "simple" strained foot.

I think the Pacers have hired the guy from Bahgdad to control all press releases regarding injuries. :smartass:

Harmonica
03-14-2005, 11:57 AM
I think the Pacers have hired the guy from Bahgdad to control all press releases regarding injuries. :smartass:

I know you're joking, but it's not far from the truth. This is how most companies operate. I don't understand all the other speculation.

ChicagoJ
03-14-2005, 01:38 PM
Alright, I had a couple of minutes to look this up on WebMD:


Torn ligament

Ligaments are tough, ropelike fibers that connect bone to bone. Sudden force, a direct blow to a joint, a deep cut, or a smashing injury can cause ligaments to tear.

Symptoms of a torn ligament may include:


A pop or snap felt or heard at the time of the tear.
Pain and swelling.
A wobbly, unstable joint.
Limited movement (mainly because of pain).
Treatment for a torn ligament varies, depending on the location and severity of the tear, the presence of any associated injuries, and the person's age and health condition. A partial tear may heal with the use of a splint for several weeks, while a complete tear may require surgery.

http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/stt11601.asp

Okay, so maybe its a partial tear. But I'd still think this may require surgery before he completely heals.

Here's what's troubling me about this whole innuendo of "misdiagnosis". If it was known to be torn, there's no way in the world he should've been allowed on the court during the Houston game. Or, perhaps it was just sprained at that point and he actually tore it (partially tore it) during the couple of minutes he hobbled around during that game.

As I implied earlier, I'm not sure this answer makes me feel any better and I don't really believe he's returning any time soon.

Bball
03-14-2005, 02:11 PM
Alright, I had a couple of minutes to look this up on WebMD:



Okay, so maybe its a partial tear. But I'd still think this may require surgery before he completely heals.

Here's what's troubling me about this whole innuendo of "misdiagnosis". If it was known to be torn, there's no way in the world he should've been allowed on the court during the Houston game. Or, perhaps it was just sprained at that point and he actually tore it (partially tore it) during the couple of minutes he hobbled around during that game.

As I implied earlier, I'm not sure this answer makes me feel any better and I don't really believe he's returning any time soon.


Oh well... here I go...

Artest's thumb...
Maybe he did the right thing afterall by doing what he did. And I'm sure I just confused some of you but others will follow.

-Bball

ChicagoJ
03-14-2005, 03:21 PM
I wasn't going to go there, but I was thinking it.

Since we're here, it is interesting that - for whatever reason you believe - his personal doctor did that surgery last season and not the team doctor.

:shrug:

able
03-14-2005, 03:24 PM
Add to that the fact JO went outside for his current shoulder problem.

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 03:24 PM
I wasn't going to go there, but I was thinking it.

Since we're here, it is interesting that - for whatever reason you believe - his personal doctor did that surgery last season and not the team doctor.

:shrug:
I wasn't around for all of those debates. I wish I were. What was said around that time? I'd love a recap.

Hicks
03-14-2005, 03:48 PM
I wasn't around for all of those debates. I wish I were. What was said around that time? I'd love a recap.

This forum should have those threads if you do some searching.

ChicagoJ
03-14-2005, 03:55 PM
This will take us far away from the original point of this thread. Admins, if you want to move it, be my guest. I just don't want to start another thread that could be mis-construed as Ron-bashing.

Anyway, LA, it was publicly reported that it wasn't the team doctor. That wasn't up for debate.

The reasonings are all subject to innuendo and "who you believe". So they aren't really relevant and at the time, the most compelling portion of the debate was whether or not management was furious at Ron for having an outside doctor perform an operation in-season, right after the ASG, and right before the trading deadline. In other words, there was a debate about whether or not the Pacers' doctor said he didn't "need" surgery, or at least not "at that time."

But the question that bball's hinting at, and nobody has asked yet... do the players not trust the Pacers' medical staff? And is this mis-trust the result of the players' lack of confidence in the staff's capabilities, or it is because the players and team have different agendas?

I don't have a clue what the answer is, I'm just stating the relevant questions.

Does the medical staff attempt to rush players back onto the court before they're ready? Or forego surgeries in effort to get a player back onto the court sooner/ during the same season and just postpone surgeries until the summer, hoping it doesn't get worse yet jeopardizing a player's long-term health (and future earning potential) for the short-term benefit of the team?

Again, I don't really have any of the answers, but those questions/ explanations might help us all 'work out' the criticisms of the medical staff that have been poster on PD lately.

Hicks
03-14-2005, 04:00 PM
Sometimes we should consider that there may be no "story" here. It could simply come down to the players prefer their doctor, and that's that. Not everything has this satisfying answer that we just can't seem to dig up, so we dream about.

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 04:04 PM
Thanks guys, I'll do some poking aroud - and yes, I'll go on record and say that I've been one of the ones to bash the med staff lately. I still stand by it, though I don't have any SOLID reasons, just an over-all feeling. And I've learned to listen to my instincts more - so I have to stick with it for now.

BACK ON TOPIC - a torn foot ligament doesn't sound like something that you would easily miss in an MRI. I've had MRI's done on my wrist, and they caught things I couldn't even feel!

Second opinions should always be welcome, especially when your carreer is on the line. I wonder if Tinsley is going to get one?

Harmonica
03-14-2005, 04:06 PM
The reasonings are all subject to innuendo and "who you believe". So they aren't really relevant and at the time, the most compelling portion of the debate was whether or not management was furious at Ron for having an outside doctor perform an operation in-season, right after the ASG, and right before the trading deadline. In other words, there was a debate about whether or not the Pacers' doctor said he didn't "need" surgery, or at least not "at that time."

Ron's personal physician also said the surgery could wait until the end of the season. Players seeking professional opinions outside of the team is not uncommon in professional sports. In fact, most teams encourage it. I know the Pacers do at least.

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 04:07 PM
Sometimes we should consider that there may be no "story" here. It could simply come down to the players prefer their doctor, and that's that. Not everything has this satisfying answer that we just can't seem to dig up, so we dream about.
Very good point. Ron went to the other doctor because he had success with the other doctor before, for the same injury. Also, it's not uncommon for Athletes to go to specialists outside of the team.

That's what Kobe was doing in Eagle, CO, right? Now I've done it ... :zip:

Bball
03-14-2005, 04:07 PM
Let me say this... when I speculated about what a 'death sentence' type punishment would do to a team and its fanbase (in a long ago post) even I didn't think about it (questions) reaching the medical staff.

I knew the league would get questioned, management, coaching, players, media, even ownership... etc.... but I didn't think about the medical staff. And I think they are valid questions that are being asked. Now I wonder who else will be under the microscope.

I still say the NBA needs to reevaluate its punishment options and think more creatively before dropping 'death sentence' type punishments. I realize the players lose a lot of money BUT they have money to spare in the real world. It is the fans who get punished the most and set into motion waves that could have long term ramnifications on the fans and the team that could be crippling. Some franchises could possibly not withstand what 'could' happen longterm. How committed is ownership? Does a missing playoff run and declining gate lead to cost-cutting measures? Does a season of turmoil break the thread that binds the team and derail future teams (and fans)? Does bad PR die or eat like a cancer? I'm not asking this of just the Simons but of any owners....

But I digress...

I return you back to the subject at hand. Injuries and the medical staff....

-Bball

ChicagoJ
03-14-2005, 04:20 PM
Sometimes we should consider that there may be no "story" here. It could simply come down to the players prefer their doctor, and that's that. Not everything has this satisfying answer that we just can't seem to dig up, so we dream about.

That's a perfectly rational answer to my questions. :)

PacerMan
03-14-2005, 06:03 PM
Dave and his crew have always been top notch, but please explain the situation otherwise. It's easy for an injury to be worse than originally thought, but...

Tinsley
Jermaine
and the ever present...Jon Bender.

Too many players trying to go out there only to find out their injuries are greater than expected. Uh yeah...in fairness JO hasn't tried to go back out before they found out it was worse than originally thought.

3 players worse off than originally thought. THAT is why I've been taking them to task.

You've been watching too many medical shows. They don't know everything in real life. :)

PacerMan
03-14-2005, 06:03 PM
I know I am insane, do you know your shortcomings?

Like the value of the franchise ? estimated by Forbes at $ 280 mio, which "usually" is 60% of the sales value of that same franchise.
Like the fact that the medical staff has been "the same" for a lot of years?
Like the fact that they are "human"?

Like the fact that sports medicine is hard for a "single athlete" doing a single thing like run or jump, but that NBA athletes are "all-round" athletes, which makes it all the more difficult?

That "over the years" they have "misjudged" the Bender problem more then once.
That the admittance of Mel Mel to have "torn ligaments" puts his "trying to play with a sprain" in a totally new light? Or is it "ok" to play with torn ligaments?
That the fact that JO seeks outside "second opinions" is a worrying factor in the faith in that same medical staff?
That statistical facts like the number of "lower back spams" is something that should be evaluated to see what causes this and/or if the training methods used are causing the additional stress or that it is something else that can be "prevented"?

And for the final question: Do you know that the medical staff has "regular jobs" in hospitals or private practises around Indy and therefore are not "only" concerned with the Pacers?

And as an addendum, civility is not calling people insane.


You're wierd.

Los Angeles
03-14-2005, 08:33 PM
I feel absolutely compelled to bring up this thread in the shout box - if you don't want negative ranting, don't click. title: fire the medical staff!

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10185

indygeezer
03-14-2005, 11:35 PM
You've been watching too many medical shows. They don't know everything in real life. :)

Cute smiley. I rarely watch tv at all especially not medical shows...I was an EMT too long to watch that crap. In 2 of 3 cases IN ONE YEAR they have sent players out on the floor that weren't ready to be there. On and off and back on the IR. And then a 3rd that MAY (I'm not saying definatly because they haven't said so) be worse than originally thought. I do not believe in coincidence at least not 3 coincidences in one year by the same group of people.

side note
I've been thru PT twice for Rotator Cuff.....it's painful, both the injury and the PT...and it takes a LONG time...at least when you're my age and out of shape as badly as I am it does. I've also been thru foot surgery on BOTH feet, so I know what foot pain and rehab is like there too.
Back spasms? Nope, one trip to the chiropracter took care of that. But I'm not 6'11" and running, jumping, and pushing on Shaq nightly either. I'll give em a pass on the back spasms.