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Shade
03-12-2005, 09:21 PM
Injured late in the season for the third straight year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2011656



SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Sacramento Kings (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=sac) center Brad Miller (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3305) will be sidelined for at least a month after breaking his left leg during a light shooting drill Saturday.

<!--------------------------START PLAYER CARD------------------><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0 vspace="5" hspace="5"><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=8></TD><TD width=200 bgColor=#ecece4><!---------------------HEADSHOT TABLE STARTS HERE---------------------><TABLE cellSpacing=6 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=2>Brad Miller (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3305)
Center
Sacramento Kings</TD><TD width=65 rowSpan=2>http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3305.jpg</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=67>Profile (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3305)
</TD><TD width=68></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!---------------------HEADSHOT TABLE ENDS HERE---------------------></TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=8></TD><TD width=200 bgColor=#ecece4><TABLE cellSpacing=4 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=190 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top align=middle bgColor=#ae5a00><TD colSpan=6><CENTER>2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS</CENTER></TD></TR><TR align=right bgColor=#bcbcb4><TD width="17%">GM</TD><TD width="17%">PPG</TD><TD width="17%">RPG</TD><TD width="17%">APG</TD><TD width="17%">FG%</TD><TD width="17%">FT%</TD></TR><TR align=right bgColor=#bcbcb4><TD>56</TD><TD>15.6</TD><TD>9.3</TD><TD>3.9</TD><TD>.524</TD><TD>.812</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!---------------------INLINE MINI-PLAYER CARD ENDS HERE--------------------->

Miller, a two-time All-Star, missed Sacramento's last six games with a bruised calf. He was expected to return for Sunday's game against Houston -- but in the latest bizarre injury in a long franchise history for the Kings, Miller broke his left fibula during a non-contact drill.



The bone will heal in four to six weeks, according to team doctors, and Miller should be able to ride a stationary bike in 10 days. But the playoffs begin in six weeks, and the Kings aren't sure whether he'll be ready.



Miller is averaging 15.6 points, 9.3 rebounds and 3.9 assists in his second season with the Kings, who acquired him in a trade with Indiana. His emergence as an elite passer and rebounder encouraged the Kings' decision to trade Chris Webber (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=1272) to the Philadelphia 76ers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=phi) two weeks ago.



Sacramento has been plagued by injuries during six consecutive winning seasons, and this winter has been no exception. Every key player on Sacramento's roster has missed at least one game with an injury.



The Kings already lost guard Bobby Jackson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3191) for the rest of the regular season when he underwent surgery to repair a torn ligament in his left wrist in early January. Peja Stojakovic (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3119), the NBA's second-leading scorer last season, has been sidelined or ineffective since straining his hamstring last month, while Cuttino Mobley missed two recent games with a strained lower back.

ChicagoJ
03-12-2005, 09:34 PM
The problem is, even with Brad gone, we've still got a team full of guys that either break down physically or mentally as the season goes on.

I've just lost all confidence in this team over the past few weeks. Its a team built for success from November to February, but once March rolls around ...

:banghead:

Lord Helmet
03-12-2005, 09:34 PM
Damn, that sucks for the Kings.

Deadshot
03-12-2005, 09:41 PM
They're going to miss Webber really bad now.

Lord Helmet
03-12-2005, 09:42 PM
How long is Peja going to be out?

FiestyFosterFanatic
03-12-2005, 09:43 PM
Atleast he will be able to sit back and drink all the beer he wants.

Dr Huxtable
03-12-2005, 11:12 PM
How do you break your leg in a light shooting drill?

Suaveness
03-12-2005, 11:16 PM
The problem is, even with Brad gone, we've still got a team full of guys that either break down physically or mentally as the season goes on.

I've just lost all confidence in this team over the past few weeks. Its a team built for success from November to February, but once March rolls around ...

:banghead:

You know what we should do? Just have the team not play the first third of the season. We can get by at .500. That way we can be healthy for the playoffs :laugh:

Bball
03-12-2005, 11:37 PM
Was it the same leg that was 'bruised'? Might make you wonder about the initial diagnosis.

Then again... maybe they use the same medical jargon that the Pacers are fond of. Pacer 'bruises' have been a red flag that a player is going to be sitting for a good long while.... :-(

-Bball

Doug
03-13-2005, 12:24 AM
Breaking your leg in a light non-contact shooting drill???

That's downright Benderriffic.



ps. Sorry Jon.

Diamond Dave
03-13-2005, 12:56 AM
Okay, I am willing to admit that this is clearly a hibitual problem for Brad.

However I do not understand why everyone is so quick to point out Brad's injury problem with a confirmed fracture, and yet the majority will defend Jamaal with a bruise saying that "no one can truly understand the pain he is in."

I just think a small double standard is being created here.

Eindar
03-13-2005, 01:06 AM
Okay, I am willing to admit that this is clearly a hibitual problem for Brad.

However I do not understand why everyone is so quick to point out Brad's injury problem with a confirmed fracture, and yet the majority will defend Jamaal with a bruise saying that "no one can truly understand the pain he is in."

I just think a small double standard is being created here.

JT has a track record for performing in the playoffs, injured or not. Brad Miller has a track record for either being too injured to play, or playing so badly his team inevitably loses.

In other words, JT can play with pain, Big Bad Brad cannot.

Diamond Dave
03-13-2005, 01:08 AM
JT has a track record for performing in the playoffs, injured or not. Brad Miller has a track record for either being too injured to play, or playing so badly his team inevitably loses.

In other words, JT can play with pain, Big Bad Brad cannot.

Well like I said, this is becoming a big problem with one of my favorite players.

However, I think it is a little different with an actual fracture. I understand he is not reliable, but a broken leg is clearly something you can not play on.

Hopefully JT can be back soon.:cry:

Lord Helmet
03-13-2005, 01:12 AM
Well like I said, this is becoming a big problem with one of my favorite players.

However, I think it is a little different with an actual fracture. I understand he is not reliable, but a broken leg is clearly something you can not play on.

Hopefully JT can be back soon.:cry:
Tins did shoot around before the GS game, so maybe he is almost there.

Jermaniac
03-13-2005, 01:34 AM
Breaking your leg in a light non-contact shooting drill???

That's downright Benderriffic.



ps. Sorry Jon. lol Benderriffic

Harmonica
03-13-2005, 01:38 AM
Okay, I am willing to admit that this is clearly a hibitual problem for Brad.

Question is, will your father?

I think it's relatively apparent now that Donnie Walsh's assessment of Brad was dead on.

SoupIsGood
03-13-2005, 02:00 AM
I think it's relatively apparent now that Donnie Walsh's assessment of Brad was dead on.

Brad was too injury-prone to keep, yet Bender always has a roster/rotation spot waiting for him.

:banghead:

Harmonica
03-13-2005, 02:06 AM
Brad was too injury-prone to keep, yet Bender always has a roster/rotation spot waiting for him.

:banghead:

One of the great mysteries of the universe.

Bball
03-13-2005, 02:34 AM
One of the great mysteries of the universe.

Not really...
At least you get half a season out of Brad...




























:devil:

-Bball

Peck
03-13-2005, 04:35 AM
Jamaal Tinsley

01/02 80 games
02/03 73 games
03/04 52 games
04/05 40 games (so far

Many people speculate that the Pacers might have been able to get past the Pistons if it weren't for two things. 1. The injury to J.O. 2. the injury to J.T. Two years ago we were taken out of the first round. Many people thought that if Brad Miller were healthy or if Jamaal Tinsley were healthy we might have made it past them.

Anybody see a common denominator there?

I'll go on.

Jon Bender

99/00 24 games (we'll give this one to him seeing as he was a rookie)
00/01 59 games
01/02 78 games
02/03 46 games
03/04 21 games
04/05 7 games (so far)

Yet, he was rewarded with an extension that directly cut into our ability to sign....

Brad Miller

98/99 38 games (again a rookie)
99/00 55 games
00/01 57 games
01/02 76 games
02/03 73 games
03/04 72 games
04/05 56 games (so far)

Now who is constantly injured & doesn't play again?

BTW, did you know that J.O. has played one more game this season than Jamaal has?

Since Dale is home it is all a little less important to me, however once my euphoria dies down from that I will always shake my head at this thought. The exact same standard should be applied to J.T. & Bender yet when it comes to Pacers fans it never is.

Brad is the devil while St. Bender can only be a great player once he gets healed & able to play.

You do realize that if Jon Bender retired today there will be people on here, & in thier own minds they will beleive this, that Bender could have been the greatest Pacer ever. They will also have convinced themselves that in the past he greatly contributed to the team.

Brad is injured again. That's just a fact. But why is Walsh any smarter about that & then not seeing the exact same things about Bender, Tinsley & (dare I even say this?) Jermaine O'Neal?

Let's review another thing shall we? Again, playoffs vs. the Pistons two Pacers were injured causing many on here to believe that we lost because of that. Who were those two?

That's right Jamaal Tinsley & Jermaine O'Neal. Guess who's injured again?

I know both are legitimate injuries so that's not my point. My point is that there is no differance between J.O. & J.T & Brad. I know the next big argument is going to be about money. Do you need reminded that J.O. is signed to a max. deal? There is no money issue when it comes to compareing injurys & late season play with these three.

Either way, I hope that Dale takes us farther than anyone of the three could. He won't but I can always hope.

Will Galen
03-13-2005, 05:01 AM
Everyone knows I'm a Walsh supporter, but I think he blew it on Brad Miller.

Good centers and good point guards are the hardest players to get in the NBA, so why didn't he sign Brad. Simple, somewhere along the line he made a mistake and it cost us Brad.

I still think Walsh is one of the premiere front office people in the NBA.

As for injuries, maybe the same people were advising him then that are making calls on the players today.

Unclebuck
03-13-2005, 08:36 AM
There is a one big difference between Bender and Brad Miller. Bender signed for 4 years, and Brad was signed for 7. Simple as that. I'm convinced that LB and DW decided that signing Brad to a long term deal, more than 4 years was a mistake and that is why the decided not to sign him to a long term deal.

Unclebuck
03-13-2005, 08:53 AM
You do realize that if Jon Bender retired today there will be people on here, & in thier own minds they will beleive this, that Bender could have been the greatest Pacer ever. They will also have convinced themselves that in the past he greatly contributed to the team.




Not sure if this is directed at me, but I want to comment anyways. I have said that I'll go to my grave 100% convinced that if Bender was ever healthy enough he would have been quite an NBA player. Better than J.O or Artest, NO. Greatest Pacers ever, hardly. But certainly one of the better players on the current Pacers team.

What do I base that on. Wild practice stories? No. Rumor? No.

I base that on what I saw from Bender, seeing the type of talent the kid had, seeing the game he IMO would have developed. He was a unique talent, one that I believe to this day was worth taking a chance on. The gamble did not pay off for no other reason than his body is not able to sustain the rigors of NBA basketball.

Harmonica
03-13-2005, 09:18 AM
Everyone knows I'm a Walsh supporter, but I think he blew it on Brad Miller. Good centers and good point guards are the hardest players to get in the NBA, so why didn't he sign Brad. Simple, somewhere along the line he made a mistake and it cost us Brad.

He didn't make a "mistake" as you say. If he thought Brad was worth it, he could have made a case to the Simons and re-signed him. He simply didn't believe Brad was worth the money he was commanding, and that evaluation was ultimately based on Brad's ability to remain healthy throughout the entire season and contribute when it mattered mostódown the stretch. It's a judgement call that (based on Brad's history and current situation) is proving to be the right decision. It's an old debate that has little to do with Bender or other decisions Walsh may or may not have made. That's an entirely different discussion altogether. By the way, that last sentence wasn't directed at you, Will.

Mourning
03-13-2005, 10:24 AM
The problem is, even with Brad gone, we've still got a team full of guys that either break down physically or mentally as the season goes on.

I've just lost all confidence in this team over the past few weeks. Its a team built for success from November to February, but once March rolls around ...

:banghead:

Someone else said it before ... you have become VERY negative lately. I understand because we are basically experiencing the 2nd season "nobody speaks of", but still ... get a little perspective on all of this, please ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

grace
03-13-2005, 10:45 AM
Someone else said it before ... you have become VERY negative lately. I understand because we are basically experiencing the 2nd season "nobody speaks of", but still ... get a little perspective on all of this, please ;).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Give the poor guy a break. They don't make Midol for men. ;)

Arcadian
03-13-2005, 12:21 PM
There is a difference based on the length of the contracts, ages and the percieved off season work ethic of the three players mentioned.

If some can pine so much for a player who is injury prone why can't that player have more patience for injury proned players on our roster? Perhaps this thread would have never come up had there not been threads started questioning how valid the injuries are for Jon and Tins.

Bball
03-13-2005, 01:01 PM
I've come to accept there is a double standard being applied. We can debate all day where the mistake is at but I don't think there should be much debate that a double standard exists.

-Bball

Arcadian
03-13-2005, 01:14 PM
Yes, I agree there is a double standard being applied.

Bball
03-13-2005, 01:21 PM
Not sure if this is directed at me, but I want to comment anyways. I have said that I'll go to my grave 100% convinced that if Bender was ever healthy enough he would have been quite an NBA player. Better than J.O or Artest, NO. Greatest Pacers ever, hardly. But certainly one of the better players on the current Pacers team.

What do I base that on. Wild practice stories? No. Rumor? No.

I base that on what I saw from Bender, seeing the type of talent the kid had, seeing the game he IMO would have developed. He was a unique talent, one that I believe to this day was worth taking a chance on. The gamble did not pay off for no other reason than his body is not able to sustain the rigors of NBA basketball.

Knowing that you tend to be optimistic the above doesn't surprise me. OTOH, reading the other day that even you have pretty much given up on Bender and now believe it is only a matter of time before the injuries (chronic?) force him out of the game and already have robbed him of his game did surprise me.

I'd say that speaks volumes.

I hope I am remembering your other post correctly and not misspeaking.

-Bball

Kstat
03-13-2005, 01:25 PM
so, who did you trade brad miller for, anyway?

Kstat
03-13-2005, 01:32 PM
The problem is, even with Brad gone, we've still got a team full of guys that either break down physically or mentally as the season goes on.

I've just lost all confidence in this team over the past few weeks. Its a team built for success from November to February, but once March rolls around ...

:banghead:

Thats why very young teams generally dont win championships....they have the talent, but the conditioning is not always there. Young players have that feeling of invincibility,and don't take conditioning seriously until they get humbled with an injury.

Even most hall of fame players experience injury issues in their early-mid 20's. Jordan, Magic, Worthy, McHale, Wilkens, take your pick.

The physical wear-and-tear wears kids down FAST, thats why I'm always a proponent of having vets in there to take some of the punishment.

I think JO is the epitome of this. Thats the reason I have always said he should be playing at PF.

I think msot of these guys will stop getting hurt as they get closer to 30, its just going to take some frustrating experiences first.

Los Angeles
03-13-2005, 01:39 PM
so, who did you trade brad miller for, anyway?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Shut up, Kstat!

You make too much sense, bringing up Stone Hands/Glass Back like that! Or are you talking about Danny Ferry? ;)

Before anyone calls me a hater, I have to say that I love Pollard. Not because of basketball - he just seems like a guy I would hang out with on a regular basis. Same with Tomahawk Chop Harrison. Seems like an awesome guy, and personality goes a long way with me.

BTW - this brings up the earlier post about length of deals - I think Pollard only signed for 3 or 4 - Brad got 7 - So Donnie again didn't mess that up too much.

Kstat
03-13-2005, 01:42 PM
If money is the ONLY issue though, is it really worth it THAT MUCH so that you can have more cap space 3 or 4 years down the road? Isn't that thinking too far ahead, considering how much can happen over that span? Is it worth having an average center over an all-star center for the same price for 3-4 years?

Unclebuck
03-13-2005, 01:47 PM
Knowing that you tend to be optimistic the above doesn't surprise me. OTOH, reading the other day that even you have pretty much given up on Bender and now believe it is only a matter of time before the injuries (chronic?) force him out of the game and already have robbed him of his game did surprise me.

I'd say that speaks volumes.

I hope I am remembering your other post correctly and not misspeaking.

-Bball


No your not misspeaking at all. I don't believe Bender will ever be healthy enough to be an NBA contributor and after his contract is up in two years I expect him to be out of the NBA.

Even if he does "get healthy" that will only be on a relative scale. And from what I saw this season he has lost a lot of his athleticism and I don't think he'll ever get that back.

Los Angeles
03-13-2005, 01:51 PM
If money is the ONLY issue though, is it really worth it THAT MUCH so that you can have more cap space 3 or 4 years down the road? Isn't that thinking too far ahead, considering how much can happen over that span? Is it worth having an average center over an all-star center for the same price for 3-4 years?
Absolutely true.

To stir the pot just that little bit more, I have to say that Pollard makes slightly less than Brad, which is why Danny Ferry was included in the deal, not that that really matters.

Also, I think the title of the thread tells us that some here think that Donnie never really saw Brad as more than average anyway, though I think that's a little bit of a revisionist tack, but whatever. He IS a two-time all-star, but all star voting always happens mid-season, and he was injured late in the season three years straight now.

Also, in the world of the Donnie Walsh/Indiana Pacers, getting a four year deal is the equivalent of a salary dump, sad as it is to say it. This kind of way-too-forward thinking is what we've been frustrated with all along, but I think there's another active thread bringing this up.

The Toxic Avenger
03-13-2005, 01:56 PM
I've always thought that we should've kept Brad but hey it just didn't work out. In retrospect it hasn't been that bad of a decision and not nearly as controversial as one Dale Davis'. I admit that I didn't know the stats Peck brought to the table so it does change my thoughts a little but as does this injury. Which begs the question would any of his injuries occured if he had been here. Obviously we wouldn't have had to put up with Bender's.

Harmonica
03-13-2005, 02:10 PM
If money is the ONLY issue though, is it really worth it THAT MUCH so that you can have more cap space 3 or 4 years down the road? Isn't that thinking too far ahead, considering how much can happen over that span? Is it worth having an average center over an all-star center for the same price for 3-4 years?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Brad play most of last year (2003-04) as a power forward?



To stir the pot just that little bit more, I have to say that Pollard makes slightly less than Brad.

Really? $49 million is only "slightly less?"



I've come to accept there is a double standard being applied. We can debate all day where the mistake is at but I don't think there should be much debate that a double standard exists.

Who exactly is applying the double standard? And what does Bender or Tinsley or anyone have to do with the subject of this thread? "It's starting to become apparent why the Pacers didn't retain Brad Miller."

Hicks
03-13-2005, 02:14 PM
Brad played a lot of PF last year. He's an all-star bigman who can play both positions well, but he's better suited to be a C.

Los Angeles
03-13-2005, 02:18 PM
Really? $49 million is only "slightly less?"[/i]
I was talking annually. The 49 million difference you're talking about is total contract value - which is the 4-years-from-now salary dump we're talking about. So I think we all see eye-to-eye on the Miller for Pollard deal.

To take it just a little further, here's their expected earnings for this year, according to HoopsHype:

Brad Miller - $7,875,000
Scott Pollard - $5,792,250

Wether that qualifies as "slightly less" or not is an issue of semantics, nothing more.

Unclebuck
03-13-2005, 02:25 PM
The biggest difference between Brad and Scot's contract is not the money per season, it is the length of the contracts. 4 years shorter

Harmonica
03-13-2005, 02:37 PM
The biggest difference between Brad and Scot's contract is not the money per season, it is the length of the contracts. 4 years shorter

Exactly. Length and total sum.

Los Angeles
03-13-2005, 02:43 PM
The biggest difference between Brad and Scot's contract is not the money per season, it is the length of the contracts. 4 years shorter
Yes. It's clear to me that if both players continue to be injured as often as they have been, history will tell us that ultimately the Pacers ended up on the right end of that deal.

I think that it's important to point out that along with the constant "building for the future" that the management is known for, they are also VERY adept at keeping the roster extremely flexible (both talent and contract wise). The long-term deals they've signed have either already been moved (Jalen Rose), CAN be moved because of sheer talent (JO), or can be moved because of "relative value" (Tinsley, Artest, Jackson, Foster, AJ). Sans suspension, none of those guys are dead weight relative to the money they are making.

The only two cases where I've felt they were stuck due to surrounding circumstances are the cases of Cro and Bender. One due to coaching and benching, the other due to constant injury.

That's one hell of a track record.

In the case of Brad Miller, DW thought the combination of money and years was not right for the team. I'll admit that he's starting to look right. But that's just hindsight talking.

Will Galen
03-13-2005, 03:23 PM
He didn't make a "mistake" as you say. If he thought Brad was worth it, he could have made a case to the Simons and re-signed him. He simply didn't believe Brad was worth the money he was commanding, and that evaluation was ultimately based on Brad's ability to remain healthy throughout the entire season and contribute when it mattered mostódown the stretch. It's a judgement call that (based on Brad's history and current situation) is proving to be the right decision.

Brad's an all star center, he's playing for the Kings and not the Pacers. Call it what you will, from my point of view that's a mistake.

If Walsh thought Brad would be an unplaying albatross his last 2 or 3 years. (like Allen Houston) Then we have a couple years to go before we know if that way of thinking was a mistake or not. Even if he thought that, he could have made Brad a 4 year max offer. He didn't make an offer.

Still, I'm not unhappy with Walsh. Picking basketball players and how they will fit on your team is all judgment. Making it harder is the fact that there are other rules you have to follow, like a salary cap. Add to that you have to also look beyond the present and look into the future and it becomes something of a crap shoot.

As is I would put Walsh's record up against anyones.

PacerSteelerChick
03-13-2005, 03:43 PM
Breaking your leg in a light non-contact shooting drill???

That's downright Benderriffic.





That's the best quote i've heard in awhile. That is frickin hillarious :laugh:

abington
03-14-2005, 10:42 PM
Yes. It's clear to me that if both players continue to be injured as often as they have been, history will tell us that ultimately the Pacers ended up on the right end of that deal.

I think that it's important to point out that along with the constant "building for the future" that the management is known for, they are also VERY adept at keeping the roster extremely flexible (both talent and contract wise). The long-term deals they've signed have either already been moved (Jalen Rose), CAN be moved because of sheer talent (JO), or can be moved because of "relative value" (Tinsley, Artest, Jackson, Foster, AJ). Sans suspension, none of those guys are dead weight relative to the money they are making.

The only two cases where I've felt they were stuck due to surrounding circumstances are the cases of Cro and Bender. One due to coaching and benching, the other due to constant injury.

That's one hell of a track record.

In the case of Brad Miller, DW thought the combination of money and years was not right for the team. I'll admit that he's starting to look right. But that's just hindsight talking.


oh right. The albatross that is Cro's contact is because of coaching and benching and has nothing to do with the fact that Cro sucks much of the time and is grossly overpaid for what he produces.

Los Angeles
03-15-2005, 12:16 AM
oh right. The albatross that is Cro's contact is because of coaching and benching and has nothing to do with the fact that Cro sucks much of the time and is grossly overpaid for what he produces.
Ouch!

OK, I can see where you get that, considering he has been at the back of the pack for a while now - but remember this - Cro was both a fan AND coaches favorite that played admirably in the NBA Finals. His deal was not bigger than other 5th/6th men in the league. Then we got IT - (who played croshere painfully out of position) and JO - who's just better than most PFs in the league anyway - the rest is history.