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Peck
03-11-2005, 02:05 AM
I think James Jones becomes a restricted free agent this summer, what does everybody think we should do with him?

Is he a keeper or should we let him walk?

If Artest is still here, which is what I believe will happen, then our S.F. spot is R.A. with J.J. as backup?

Jax will probably start at the two guard spot & we all know that when he plays Ron gets about 38-40 min. a game so J.J. would still get limited time.

Fred will cover the backup 2, 3 & even some backup 1.

Do we even wanna consider Bender into this mix?

I guess what I'm saying is do we really want or need to invest any kind of money on James or could we get by with another second round or NBDL forward for real cheap to just get spot min. or even warm the I.R.L., assuming there is room with two of the three spots needing to be reserved for Jon & Jamaal.

BostonConnection
03-11-2005, 02:15 AM
From the few games I'm able to see of the Pacers on TV every season I have been intrigued by some of the flashes of decent play that JJ has shown this year. He's got decent range and good size for the positions he can play. The one thing I can't really evaluate well is his defense. I haven't seen enough of his play to make a good judgement on this, though what I have seen makes me think that potential for improvement in this area will determine whether he is a keeper or not for this team.

I'm not sure if I can bring myself to even think about Bender much anymore... :shrug:

Peck
03-11-2005, 02:24 AM
IMO, James is solid defensively. Not spectacular & not a stopper but solid. Time & coaching will improve him.

However what I didn't get across in my initial post was that I am really wondering if he will be worth any kind of money even if it is just above league min. if all the guy is going to do is get 8 min. a game at most.

If we need an insurance policy & with Ron that is always possible, couldn't we get a rookie or some NBDL guy?

I'm not sure of the answer to this. I like James Jones, but with R.A., Jax & Fred I just wonder if money wouldn't be better spent by just getting someone else for league min. or rookie second round min. & letting James move on?

_PD_
03-11-2005, 02:24 AM
Anybody have any idea what it would cost to keep him? If it turns out to be a croshere contract, forget it.

He can be a good asset if he'll shoot it, plays decent D especially as a backup, and 10-12 minutes sounds about right. He wasn't even getting that earlier in the season was he?

I don't see any point in including JB in this discussion, until :laugh: he's healthy.

If we're going to spend any money, shouldn't it be on some PG backup?

tseramid
03-11-2005, 02:31 AM
Why does everyone forget that John Edwards' contract must be taken care of too!

BostonConnection
03-11-2005, 02:33 AM
I'm not sure of the answer to this. I like James Jones, but with R.A., Jax & Fred I just wonder if money wouldn't be better spent by just getting someone else for league min. or rookie second round min. & letting James move on?

I like JJ but wouldn't lose any sleep if the Pacers let him move on. The fact that he has actually looked good at times surprised me, but I would rather see the team address areas like backup PG where we are much weaker.

BostonConnection
03-11-2005, 02:33 AM
Why does everyone forget that John Edwards' contract must be taken care of too!

That's what paper shredders are for... ;)

XXSASSXX31
03-11-2005, 02:34 AM
I love J.J. He is an amazing person and a great basketball player. A guy who can score nearly 30 pts in a game is a keeper and J.J. is a great shooter and we need to keep him.

BostonConnection
03-11-2005, 02:40 AM
But as Peck point out, the problem is one of minutes and money. If Ron is back full time next season along with Jax and Freddie (again, I just can't bring myself to think much about JB right now) then JJ is relegated to garbage time at best, and DNP-CDs otherwise. If that's the case it won't make sense to invest money in a player at a position that is deep when there are other needs that should be addressed first.

XXSASSXX31
03-11-2005, 02:51 AM
But as Peck point out, the problem is one of minutes and money. If Ron is back full time next season along with Jax and Freddie (again, I just can't bring myself to think much about JB right now) then JJ is relegated to garbage time at best, and DNP-CDs otherwise. If that's the case it won't make sense to invest money in a player at a position that is deep when there are other needs that should be addressed first.

Not really, J.J. will get minutes next season now Reggie is retiring even when Ron is back alongside Freddie. Freddie will play backup 2 and J.J. would play backup SF. The only question is whether Bender will be healthy enough to play and that can limit J.J.'s minutes.

Harmonica
03-11-2005, 02:59 AM
Ron, in most likelihood, won't be back next season, so I say we keep and try to develop J.J. The farthest Ron gets with the Pacers next season is the mid-season trade deadline.

XXSASSXX31
03-11-2005, 03:12 AM
Ron, in most likelihood, won't be back next season, so I say we keep and try to develop J.J. The farthest Ron gets with the Pacers next season is the mid-season trade deadline.

Ron won't be back next season? LOLOLOLOL I love this comedy I hear and I don't mean to label anyone any names but why spout this kind of nonsense which you have no basis for?

Without Ron Artest, we have no hope of an NBA Championship. Ron has a chance to be MVP next season. Ron Artest will be back next season and our coach and players know this.

Harmonica
03-11-2005, 03:30 AM
Ron won't be back next season? LOLOLOLOL I love this comedy I hear and I don't mean to label anyone any names but why spout this kind of nonsense which you have no basis for?

Without Ron Artest, we have no hope of an NBA Championship. Ron has a chance to be MVP next season. Ron Artest will be back next season and our coach and players know this.

There will be a team this season that wins the championship without Ron. And Rick would defer to Donnie and Larry if they thought it best to get rid of Ron, which I think is highly likely.

Jose Slaughter
03-11-2005, 03:41 AM
For those that think maybe we should Jones walk because we have Artest, Jackson & F. Jones, let me say this.

As we have seen this year, depth can be very important.

Miller will be out of the picture next season & it looks like some of Fred could be playing at least a little time at the point. Even thou it looks like, on paper, JJ might not get a lot of minutes. I woudn't have a problem with him stepping into a backup role next season, if called upon to.

I like the progress JJ has made & I think he is worth hanging on to. Considering who he might be on the floor with at times next season, his shooting would be very valuable to the club.

You might also consider the time & money wasted on Bender. The front office has no problem in waiting on players they feel are talented, to develope into NBA players.

Finally, I really like looking for the next player to come out of nowhere to make it big. However, I think it would be nice to try to keep the end of the bench guys here, instead of rotating them out every season or two.

Because of the Bender & Croshere contracts I doubt they can, or will, pay him big money. The FA pool will be too strong at his position next season anyway.
I'd hope they give him a couple more years at a reasonable price & spend their energy looking at upgrading the backup point guard position.

able
03-11-2005, 05:14 AM
CB had this to say about "JJ" in a recent QOD:


It's safe to assume both Joneses will be a part of the team's future. The Pacers can negotiate an extension for Fred Jones during the summer of 2005, and there's every reason to believe that will get done because the Pacers don't want to lose him to free agency. The same is true for James Jones, although it remains to be seen how the depth chart at small forward will sort out when Ron Artest returns.

He would most likely stay even if offered the min is my personal guess, few places he would be better of then here :D

At around or close to that amount I certailny say keep him, why not develop something promising a little further before you try and find something else that takes a few years to develop?

Vicious Tyrant
03-11-2005, 06:03 AM
Personally, I like JJ - but I don't see much about him that makes me think he's worth much more than the league min. That said, I don't see him getting more money anywhere else, and I like having him on the squad. Heck of a late second round pick up from where I'm standing. Cheers, Donnie.

PacerCrazy
03-11-2005, 08:10 AM
I think we keep him. He already knows the system which is pretty valuable and it should cost much to resign him. When is Pollard's contract up and Cros for that matter? We have Bender under contract for a bit right?

PacerMan
03-11-2005, 08:27 AM
I think James Jones becomes a restricted free agent this summer, what does everybody think we should do with him?

Is he a keeper or should we let him walk?

If Artest is still here, which is what I believe will happen, then our S.F. spot is R.A. with J.J. as backup?

Jax will probably start at the two guard spot & we all know that when he plays Ron gets about 38-40 min. a game so J.J. would still get limited time.

Fred will cover the backup 2, 3 & even some backup 1.

Do we even wanna consider Bender into this mix?

I guess what I'm saying is do we really want or need to invest any kind of money on James or could we get by with another second round or NBDL forward for real cheap to just get spot min. or even warm the I.R.L., assuming there is room with two of the three spots needing to be reserved for Jon & Jamaal.


One would have to be absolutely insane to not consider Ron Artest's backup CRUCIAL. IF we keep him. (which I still don't think will happen, no matter what they are saying now)

PacerMan
03-11-2005, 08:32 AM
I think JJ's going to be a keeper. he hasn't shown enough for anyone else to pay him big $. I've seen several coaching staff comments about his strong work ethic. Pacers value that big time. He's come along way in the past year. He won't be a star, but he'll be a solid player, hopefully for us.
We'll keep him.

Unclebuck
03-11-2005, 08:40 AM
I'm very lukewarm on JJ. Good shooter, good rebounder, decent defender. Horrible pass, awful post passer, horrible ball handler. Nice guy who will nevr cause any problems.

He'll never be more than a 8th or 9th man on a good team.

If the price is right I have no problem keeping him, but if he plays a lot that means another bad season

ABADays
03-11-2005, 09:00 AM
However what I didn't get across in my initial post was that I am really wondering if he will be worth any kind of money even if it is just above league min. if all the guy is going to do is get 8 min. a game at most.

And that would be 8 x more than what we have been getting from . . . .

Ragnar
03-11-2005, 09:09 AM
I say keep him. Unless there is a very very stupid team out there that wants him (Knicks) and would pay him the mid level I think he will be in the 1m range and will be well worth it. Dump Edwards keep JJ.


I am getting pissed off that Edwards is on the team. Actually I should say I am still pissed off that Edwards is on this team. He can provide nothing and we passed up a guy who would be able to give us valuable minutes.

Unclebuck
03-11-2005, 09:17 AM
I say keep him. Unless there is a very very stupid team out there that wants him (Knicks) and would pay him the mid level I think he will be in the 1m range and will be well worth it. Dump Edwards keep JJ.


I am getting pissed off that Edwards is on the team. Actually I should say I am still pissed off that Edwards is on this team. He can provide nothing and we passed up a guy who would be able to give us valuable minutes.


Who did we pass up ?

Ragnar
03-11-2005, 09:33 AM
Holcomb

beast23
03-11-2005, 09:37 AM
From my perspective, consider Bender's injuries and lack of perimeter defense, I believe that JJ is a much better fit for the needs of the Pacers than is Bender. JJ in his first year is a significantly better man on defender than Bender. And can be retained at a fraction of the price. So, I'd sign him for $700K or less per year for 2 years.

I'd be thinking to extend Freddie this summer, as well as sign Dale to a 2-3 year contract with some/most of the MLE.

Croshere can opt out of his contract, but that would leave over $18M (2 yrs) on the table. So the only way Croshere renogiates or leaves would be if he could get something like $30M for 5 years. If he did that, it would lower his average annual to $6M, making him a much better value to us and in possible trades.

As for the other players, I think the status of each player this summer is:
JO - starter
DD - starter
Artest - starter
SJax - starter
Tinsley - starter
FJones - 1st backcourt player off bench (some PT at 3)
Foster - 1st big off bench
Harrison - backup
Croshere - backup
JJones - backup
Draft pick #1

Pollard - trade bait (final contract year)
Bender - trade bait (2 yrs remaining on contract)
AJ - trade bait only if FJones extends contract

Gill - gone
Edwards - gone
Reggie - retired

The question in my mind is who among the primary players that I've listed will also be gone before next season.

Ragnar
03-11-2005, 09:39 AM
I am pretty convinced that the Pacers should take the money they saved on Ron and put it towards buying out Cro. I like Cro but it is clear he will never be a starter here for more than a couple of games and he needs pt to be effective.

owl
03-11-2005, 09:57 AM
Pollard will be traded next year along with possibly Croshere. Pollard has one
year and Croshere 2 years left. Edwards will be gone. The Pacers will have Dale next year and a first round pick who will be a good player. That pick will probably be a point guard or a forward type. Hakim Warrick would replace
Croshere or back up the small forward. He will probably be gone at the Pacers pick. There are several good point guards available. The Pacers desparately
need a back up point that is similar to Tinsley in his ability to pass the ball.
Pacers


owl

abington
03-11-2005, 10:28 AM
There is something about JJ that I like a lot. It's more of an intangible than anything else, and in that respect he reminds me of a less skilled but still talented Derek McKey. I think he has a chance to be a solid NBA player for a long time, and possibly a very good player if he continues to improve. I don't think you can count on Bender for anything, and the next Artest implosion is only a matter of time. Either way, without Reggie, it would nice to have a 3pt shooter off the bench that can stretch the defense.

Kegboy
03-11-2005, 11:14 AM
I think there will be some roster juggling this summer, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes in that takes JJ's slot.

That said, the brass is really high on him, or at least they were until he curled up into a ball. But I'm not gonna make any predictions about what the Pacers will do until I see the new CBA, provided there is one. :shrug: :-p

ChicagoJ
03-11-2005, 11:19 AM
Even if Ron's with the team, we still need a starting-caliber SF to take the minutes whenever he melts down.

I don't think JJ is that guy, but he might still be part of the plans as a "third SF."

Either way, we're going to be in the market for a starting caliber SF to either replace Ron via a trade or just replace Ron during the stretches in which he's benched, distracted, suspended, etc.

Shade
03-11-2005, 11:19 AM
I'd keep JJ at a reasonable price, assuming it doesn't affect our ability to re-sign, say, Dale. He's expendable, but he's a decent back-up, so I could live with it either way. I'd like to see him back in a Pacers uni next year.

Hicks
03-11-2005, 11:24 AM
As long as he's the 2nd to last priority on our "to sign" list, Edwards being dead last, I'm happy to keep him. Just make sure we have Dale signed first. If we screw that up over Jimmy I will be pissed.

I would not be surprised if James bails to the Heat. That's his home.

Kegboy
03-11-2005, 11:30 AM
...Edwards being dead last, I'm happy to keep him.

For a second there, I thought you were saying you'd be happy to keep the Senator. :slap:

Anyway, this is why I want to see details on the CBA. Could very well open the door for a team like Miami to take JJ.

Harmonica
03-11-2005, 11:31 AM
As for the other players, I think the status of each player this summer is:
JO - starter
DD - starter
Artest - starter
SJax - starter
Tinsley - starter
FJones - 1st backcourt player off bench (some PT at 3)
Foster - 1st big off bench
Harrison - backup
Croshere - backup
JJones - backup
Draft pick #1

Pollard - trade bait (final contract year)
Bender - trade bait (2 yrs remaining on contract)
AJ - trade bait only if FJones extends contract

Gill - gone
Edwards - gone
Reggie - retired

The question in my mind is who among the primary players that I've listed will also be gone before next season.

I imagine Donnie and Larry have been around the block enough times to know that a tiger doesn't change its stripes. And of course there's the old adage: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." Meaning, if Ron is here next year, I'd be quite surprised. They may try to keep him for the first half of the season to boost his trade value, which would be foolish in my opinion, but if they packaged him with one of the above players you mentioned, we might be able to make a decent trade in the off-season. What would be ideal is if Stern let Ron back at some point this season so we could ship him out immediately following the playoffs when his trade value is on the uptick.

ChicagoJ
03-11-2005, 11:35 AM
-snip-
What would be ideal is if Stern let Ron back at some point this season so we could ship him out immediately following the playoffs when his trade value is on the uptick.

If JO is going to miss the rest of the season, believe it or not I'd be fine with this scenario.

I just fear, given the rapidly detiorating relationship between JO and Ron even prior to the brawl, putting them back on the court together ever again.

sixthman
03-11-2005, 11:48 AM
The best thing to do with Croshere is ride out his contract. Same with Bender.

In just two summers each becomes a valued expiring contract.

The last thing the Pacers should do is renegotiate a long term deal with Austin where he winds up with five million a year until be becomes totally bald.

If Bender has any future value, which I think his knees will not allow, it is as the backup for Jermaine. He is the one guy on our roster, in addition to maybe Harrison, who could eventually have an offensive presence in the post.

Keep James Jones if he can be signed for less than a million. He is a solid third string small forward whose game will keep improving.

PacerMan
03-11-2005, 01:17 PM
I think there will be some roster juggling this summer, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes in that takes JJ's slot.

That said, the brass is really high on him, or at least they were until he curled up into a ball. But I'm not gonna make any predictions about what the Pacers will do until I see the new CBA, provided there is one. :shrug: :-p

You need to look at his stats of late............

beast23
03-11-2005, 01:48 PM
The problem that I see is that the Pacers have become a team of way to many "ifs" when it comes to their roster.

... IF Ron is still here or IF Ron can be traded
... IF Pollard doesn't retire due to his aching back
... IF Bender is (ever) healthy or IF Bender can be traded
... IF Tinsley can (ever) play healthy the 2nd half of a season.
... IF Freddie can be signed to an extension
... IF JJ can be re-signed knowing he will not see many minutes
... IF DD can be re-signed

We have 15 guys with Curry gone. Reggie will retire and Edwards and Gill should be gone. Pollard could very easily retire due to his back problems. JJ could be gone since teams are always looking to add excellent perimeter shooting and a decent defender, especially when they don't have to pay much to get it.

I'm assuming that Pollard's contract could be traded, even if he does retire. Otherwise we are down to 10 players, or even 9 if you don't count Bender.

And even worse, in that scenario, even if we wanted to trade Artest, we may not have much to package him with unless we wanted to further break up our core of 7-8 players.

I'm assuming that Dale is willing to re-sign ith the team. I'd also like to think that Freddie can be signed to the extension and that JJ will re-sign as well. That would go a long way in resolving the "IFs".

bread
03-11-2005, 02:23 PM
I think JJ will be resigned unless somebody offers him some crazy money that we wouldn't dare match. If he does go elsewhere though I think we could get a very good SF in the draft (Ryan Gomes, Joey Graham). Ron isn't going anywhere because there is no way we could ever get anything near equal value for him. Giving us a SF rotation of RA/Jax/JJ or draft pick

DD will resign and Pollard will be traded. C rotation of DD/Jeff/Hulk

Cro isn't going anywhere until next year when he's on the last year of his contract. PF rotation of JO/Cro/DD/Bender:neutral:

We are solid at SG with a rotation of Jax/FJ/RA

I also think we are solid at PG even with Tinsley's questionable health. I would like to see AJ traded but I don't think that will ahppen because nobody will take the 3 years left on his deal unless we could package him with Polly for another PG or a pick that becomes a PG. I think the writing is on the wall for him if Freddie continues to improve as a backup PG. He may be bought out if nobody will take him. I think that Freddie will make a fine backup PG. PG rotation would be Tins/FJ/AJ or draft pick or free agent

Edwards :fingerscr and Gill are goners.

That's the way I see it.:crystalba:)

SoupIsGood
03-11-2005, 05:31 PM
Gill, Edwards, and Miller will be gone.

We should really try to trade Johnson, Bender, Pollard, and even Croshere if we can. Trade them for picks, likely second-round picks. (I know they can't all leave, but a Bender/Pollard package for a pick is possible)

Extend Fred, and re-sign James if it is at the right price. If not, no big loss.

Since there is no player currently in the NBA that brings what Ron does to the court, and is attainable, the Pacer's really need to hit the draft hard for SF's from here on out. Eventually, even if it takes a few years, we will find a replacement, and ship him out. I don't like the idea of trading him for a pick however, as it is risky, and even if it works, delays us from contending another year, as we wait for the rook to gain experience.

Sign a vet back-up PG if we can. If not, let Fred take over.

3Ball
03-11-2005, 06:15 PM
I agree that JJ will be resigned. He's exactly the kind of guy that the Pacers hold on to -- young and intriguing. How many of those have we let go for nothing over the last 20 years?